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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • While age can certainly be a factor, it would be irresponsible to toss all the reports based on any age threshold. Chuck Yeager helped celebrate the 50th anniversary of breaking the sound barrier by doing it again in an F-15 Eagle at age 74. At age 87 he does limit his piloting to ultralights.

    Each report needs to be evaluated on it's own merit.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,236
    >I think there should be a presumption that driver error was the cause of all the accidents involving drivers over 65. That would greatly reduce the number of alleged acceleration defects, perhaps to statistical insignificance.

    Why not just say, "Ignore all the evidence." That's what toyota has done by its actions concealing evidence and working with NHTSA in less than forthright ways.

    I find that idea that if people are over a certain age, they must have caused the accident just as offensive as telling people that there's no problem when they reported the incidents to the dealership and telling them they did something wrong and telling them to go on out the door.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    "In the 1980s, Audi became the poster child for Sudden Unintended Acceleration.

    More than 1,000 consumers alleged that their Audi 5000 vehicles had accelerated without driver input; 175 had been injured, and four died in SUA crashes. The company denied that there was anything wrong with the vehicle and blamed the problem on shorter than average drivers who did not have much experience driving an Audi. These small, confused drivers had mistakenly depressed the gas pedal when they meant to step on the brake, Audi said. The response was a public relations and marketing nightmare. Audi sales plunged, and the complaints continued.
  • P.S. - we can be sure that almost all cases of unintended acceleration are going to get headlines no matter what the make of car. Even though there is likely a comparable percentage of older drivers at the wheel of numerous makes, there has to be a reason that Toyota takes the prize.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,082
    Sharon....using your "audi" UA numbers as a reference, that means Toyota has had over twice as many UA complaints. And, they've had they've had 8X the number of deaths attributed to their UA problems.

    That WILL get everyone's attention, if we're using Audi as the baseline.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I had just cut and pasted the info from a safety advocate site. Site has good info, and have verified some info. I realize numbers Toyota has are much higher. Toyota numbers given by NHTSA at 34 are 10 higher than big Pinto gas tank problem. And according to the new Edmunds Statistical Data Report 2/22 Toyota does have highest number of UA/SUA complaints. Ford is second. Refer back to my prior blog for Edmunds Report link.

    Will something correcting this be done this time??? Will press pressure, internet, facts be enough?
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Found this article regarding information on EDR's - background - examples of Toyota approaches, etc. k-boxes/

    What does everyone feel about article? What do you see may be happening???
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    You don't suppose folks over 65 might just have more driving experience to compare too and also a tad more time on their hands to pursue complaints, get involved in the tedious and onerous procedure...??
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,236
    The most damning part likely represent's toyota's attitude, despite what their lips say: "zal’s Lawyer, Donald Slavik, has been trying to get data from the car’s black box for nearly three years. He was told by Toyota that the data would only be provided if Mr. Slavik got a court to order the company to do so. Later, Toyota told the lawyer “the data in the black box was unusable.”"

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Seems like the wife of Ted James had her Prius take off with her - just as you described. Colorado. Toyota blew them off. This is same gentleman Toyota awarded a $10,000 scholarship to for his outstanding work, etc. Family seemed to be big advocate for Toyota prior to accident. No more. And they are not suing. They are big community service individuals. Now they are advocates for protecting consumers to get Toyota to correct problems.

    Here is 1a video that husband did after accident.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Seems like Toyota just creates more suspicion. And legally they can get by with this. It would just be very easy to clear their good name if they wanted. Provide the data - other manufacturers already have. Mind-boggling!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,080
    edited March 2010
    Audi sales plunged, and the complaints continued.

    Audi sales went to near zero in the USA. It was not their fault except for the fact they made changes that did not make it easy for many people to drive their cars safely. Toyota has multiple problems that ARE their fault in most cases. What will it do to their sales? More than 20 years later there are still lawsuits with only 4 deaths claimed against Audi. How many years will it take Toyota to pay off the lawsuits associated with the mounting death toll, attributed to UA, faulty brakes and erratic steering? It is likely to go on for several decades and $billions. The cat is out of the bag and nothing to slow down the train. Toyota's secret society mentality is much to blame.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    link title

    What happened? I’m not sure, but here’s what didn’t happen: it wasn’t a “sticky e-pedal” since the Scion has an old fashioned throttle cable. It wasn’t floor mat entrapment, but it sure could have been before I cut the whole front section of my all-weather rubber mat off.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,294
    I can just see them smacking themselves upside their own heads in disgust when these fruitcakes started defaulting on their loans.

  • kharriskharris Posts: 41
    1. I remember the Audi problem because one of my friends had an Audi that was only a few months old when the problem was announced. He was upset but did not actually experience anything himself.
    2. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "It was not their fault except for the fact they made changes that did not make it easy for many people to drive their cars safely." Please clarify that if you would.
    3. And how is Audi doing today?
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Fact is the accidents exist. It is difficult for people who are alone to prove incidents really did happen.

    The secrecy Toyota displays with their EDR information makes it impossible to legally prove. Toyota's excuse it is a prototype & per law don't have to release - raises many questions and produces suspicion. Toyota can therefore say whatever they want when attempting any readouts. No unbiased duplicate check to check on validity of Toyota's report. And their prototype may have been made purposely to deflect lawsuits?? Poor quality?? Legal defense - can't be proven, excellent total control strategy approach.

    Good technology has existed for good 10+ years.

    How can DHTSA justify taking 12 years to get a good new EDR law implemented?? So now it is susposed to be by Sept 1, 2012. Is DHTSA once again going to delay, extend this date as they already have done???

    At hearing LaHood displayed ignorance/or didn't know about this law??? Toyota said they are following law, will implement, may do sooner??? Afterwards Toyota seems to be retracting some testimony given - may retract this too??
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    "In the 1980s, Audi became the poster child for Sudden Unintended Acceleration. And in many ways, this vehicle’s SUA problem became the model of how these problems would be investigated by NHTSA, defended by the industry and used as the sine qua non of SUA myth-busting.

    More than 1,000 consumers alleged that their Audi 5000 vehicles had accelerated without driver input; 175 had been injured, and four died in SUA crashes. The company denied that there was anything wrong with the vehicle and blamed the problem on shorter than average drivers who did not have much experience driving an Audi. These small, confused drivers had mistakenly depressed the gas pedal when they meant to step on the brake, Audi said. The response was a public relations and marketing nightmare. Audi sales plunged, and the complaints continued.

    The Audi 5000 was the subject of an infamous 60 Minutes story, in which the news program attempted to simulate SUA. The broadcast drove Audi sales down further, and the network was heavily criticized for its one-sided story. As the history is often recounted today, NHTSA vindicated Audi and CBS never apologized for maligning the automaker.

    However, between 1982 and 1987, Audi launched five recalls to address the problem. The first three attempted to fix what Audi had characterized as the driver-error problem by tweaking the pedal positions. The fifth and final recall for 250,000 1978 to 1987 vehicles added a brake-shift interlock – which requires drivers to depress the brake pedal before shifting out of the Park position.

    The fourth recall was probably the most telling about the Audi 5000’s SUA problem. In 1987, Audi recalled 81,000 Audi 5000s from the 1986 and 1987 model years, for worn idle stabilizer units. As Audi explained to its customers: “The idle stabilizer has the purpose of maintaining uniform engine idle speed by regulating air flow under different operating conditions, such as variations in engine temperature, and on/off cycling of the air conditioner or power assist pump. Excessive idle stabilizer wear causes engine idle fluctuations which increase with the usage of the car. If a worn unit is not replaced in a timely fashion, the engine idle could ultimately see-saw so severely that it may surprise a driver who is not acquainted with the vehicle’s condition and fails to apply the brake. Under these circumstances, there is a risk of a collision in a confined space with the possibility of injury.” (In others words, dear driver, it’s still your fault.)

    Audi received much of the attention, due in part to victims, who organized and advocated very effectively for themselves."
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,080
    First off, Audi is doing very well today. I think the end finding on the Audi UA was brake and throttle were too close together. This was by design for those that are sporty drivers. The problem is many drivers could not handle the way they designed it. It was long time ago and that is all I recall of the issue. Four deaths attributed to the Audi UA. We are now at 56 dead, being blamed on Toyota for UA. Everyone is watching Toyota and the NHTSA, so it will not be as easy to shuffle under the rug.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I confirm Audi is presently doing well re: UA/SUA complaints lodged. My son and daughter inlaw just bought their big SUV. I can't confirm reliability status though. They do have brake override.

    NOTE - Hyundai is already implementing brake override due publicity. All new models after February will have, except for just a couple that have cable systems. It is March1 now - so all new models manufactured from now on will have. NOTE - AND THEIR STATS ARE QUITE GOOD. BUT THEY IMMEDIATELY BECAME PROACTIVE- IMPLEMENTING. VOLUNTARY QUIET ACTIONS TAKEN MEAN MORE THAN TOYOTA SPOUTING JUST SYMPATHY WORDS - "WE ARE SORRY, OUR CUSTOMER ALWAYS COMES FIRST."

    How can Hyundai voluntarily address so soon?? H-mmm this manufacturer seems to be quietly forging ahead & is gaining sales. My friends just recently got a Santa Fe and I was quite surprised. Interior quite nice, exterior great design. And please know I am not an advocate for Hyundai. Just saw this GREAT PR release.

    Why can't Toyota can't address sooner??? Other manufacturers that don't have can't voluntarily either??? Most European autos have. Some American have too.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Richmond VAPosts: 177
    "Toyota has multiple problems that ARE their fault in most cases."

    ARE? You have proof? No, you don't. You just have your Toyota jihad and your bias is showing again.

    Why not wait on the facts. All of the facts.


    P.S. - Audi sold what, a couple hundred thousand cars, and Toyota has sold tens of millions. No doubt Toyota has had 4x or 8x the number of complaints. I remember the Audi lynching well. And that's what it was.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,082
    Sharon....Lentz and Inaba both made statements that they tried to retract. I'm sure Lentz wishes he didn't let that little blurb about faulty cruise controls slip out. Inaba tried to distance himself from the infamous memo regardign "$100M saved by circumventing and delaying safety reg implementation."

    What will be interesting is if any criminal malfeasance is pursued (like obstruction of justice, perjury, or contempt, for example). Will the DOJ go after Toyota as a corporation? Or, with they target individuals like Lentz and Inaba?
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This is same gentleman attempted to check what Toyota claimed condensation, temperature conditions may cause a problem with CTS pedal. This gentleman took pedal put in freezing water - with electrical connection above the water line. Then put in oven and baked at 250 for I think 20 minutes. Interesting.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,080
    ARE? You have proof? No, you don't. You just have your Toyota jihad and your bias is showing again.

    The facts ARE. Toyota poorly engineered their gas peddle. That has been recalled and getting a kludge kind of fix. They have several million cars with a throttle controller that can stick due to poor use of materials in design. They have many unexplained cases of UA some of which HAVE been verified by Toyota dealers. The Defective throttle body controller that caused WOT. Plus the Brake issues with their hybrids. The steering with the newly designed Corolla. Is that enough FACTS for this discussion.

    No Jihad. I am a Toyota owner with so so satisfaction and no UA to date. I am not thrilled with their DBW throttle on my 2007 Sequoia. Too many pauses and surges. Just a poor design I have learned to live with.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    That wait at car dealer can end up costly

    That waiting room vigil was a vivid reminder that Toyota has a huge problem beyond the floor mat entrapment and the gas pedal: public relations, especially at the dealership level.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,082
    Sharon....interesting video but not really surprising. I don't think many people who have kept up with this little fiasco ever believed this was a "sticky pedal" problem...especially after the Congressional hearings.

    No one has come forward with a broken, or sticky pedal. Not Toyota. Not Toyota dealership techs. No one.

    The "sticky pedal" fix, as well as the floormat "fix" was simply was the cheapest way to address the ever growing litany of problems related to Toy/Lexus UA. Not the "real" fix (which will finally be addressed with the inevitable reflash of the ECUs and EPROMs, adding brake over ride). That reflash, as stated, is not a fix for UA, it is a viable remedy.

    Toyota is still trying to skirt this remedy on cars dating back as far as 2001 to save themselves a huge bill (even larger than the one they've got with the current 8.5M vehicles already recalled.

    They're just going to have to recall them all over again.

    I don't know how any company of Toyota's former stature could screw this up any worse.

    It's like my parents always told me when I was a kid who did something wrong..."you can tell us about it now, and take your punishment. Or, you can try to lie your way out of it, and make it 10 times worse."

    Toyota seems hell bent to make it ten times worse on themselves.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,236
    edited March 2010
    >No one has come forward with a broken, or sticky pedal.

    That is really odd that no one among all the defenders have said that they have a pedal that has been sticking in position and doesn't rebound smoothly. Not one.

    If this were a problem needing fixed related to the sudden unintended acceleration wouldn't toyota have some people jumping onto forums saying the sticky pedal was their problem and toyota has served them well with its interest in their safety and has fixed their sticky pedal.

    Ain't happened. :P

    So scratch that as a real problem related to SUA.

    Mats as a problem speaks for itself.

    I'm looking forward to testimony under oath by toyota scientists and engineers.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I am not sure what will happen. I just realize some obstruction of justice appears to be present by past history, actions, statements, etc. Knowing it exists and being able to introduce solid legal proof to win in court is difficult.

    Past history of DHTSA makes it appear the auto manufacturers have been treated with "kid gloves." But now new DHTSA heads over last year> Will they be different?? Manufacturers per their request, have been successful keeping detrimental information out of DHTSA system and from public. Etc.

    This link best describes. And is about same as claimed elsewhere on other safety sites, and news releases I have seen.

    Politics, DHTSA, manufacturer corporations and lobbying and political money, consumers, US legal system, oversight committee investigation, media news pressure w secrets brought out. internet w wide dissemination of info,consumer advocacy groups, US unstable status, etc.

    Inaba making a statement he didn't know about $100 million savings claim?? Said he has only been in position for one year. But wait - also confirms he has worked for Toyota for many years(I forget how many). Appeared to be legal protection stance strategy. Did he know?? I feel he did, his name is on memo. If he really has the "memory issues" he claims, he would be fired from his executive position.

    Guess we wait, see what happens, and will have to try to analyze all for the truth. What do you predict???

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    You mean Toyota hired gun Exponent engineers??? Personally I would question any report from them. This is a defense firm for corporations. Don't forget the PGE chromium pollution involvement & proven misdeeds uncovered here in California.

    Pedal Toyota fix recall claim does seem highly questionable!!!

    Hope he comes out with another test demonstration.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,080
    No one has come forward with a broken, or sticky pedal.

    It is quite possible that Toyota came up with that to cover cases where no floor mats were involved. Like the Avalon in TX that roared into a pond and 4 people died. If they could have gotten the NHTSA to actually sign off on the Shim Scam it would have been a dirt cheap fix. With no one actually buying into the shim, what will be their next final fix for 8.5 million vehicles? With probably more than that being added with either a defective whatever in the DBW system or the CC. Was this the CC problem Lentz let slip during testimony.


    As usual no error codes No Trouble Found. How convenient?
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    A bit OT but it does sort of fit in...when it rains it pours! Just an FYI for those with the affected autos! LIKE THE WAY THEY SAY IT IS NOT A RECALL! :mad:

    Just announced

    UPDATE 1-Toyota to replace oil hose in 933,800 cars
    Mon Mar 1, 2010 2:50pm EST

    12:00am PST

    * V6 Camry, Avalon, Rav4, Lexus vehicles involved

    Stocks | Cyclical Consumer Goods

    * Fix part of 'Limited service campaign', not recall

    * Oil hose may develop a hole, potentially causing leak

    DETROIT, March 1 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) will replace an oil hose in some 933,800 vehicles in the United States due to the risk of a potential leak that if left untreated could damage the engine, the automaker said on Monday.

    On some Camry, Avalon, Rav4 and Lexus vehicles equipped with V6 engines, the rubber portion of the engine oil hose may develop a small hole, potentially causing oil leakage and engine failure, Toyota said in a document sent out to U.S. dealers and obtained by Reuters on Monday.

    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons confirmed the company had sent the document on a "limited service campaign" to U.S. dealers. He added the oil hose issue is not a safety issue and the vehicles are not being recalled.

    Lyons said a leak would likely be noticed by drivers as an oil puddle beneath a vehicle.

    The service campaign covers 2007-2010 model year Camry, 2005-2009 Avalon, 2006-
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