logically in most states, the post tax and title price would go hit about 53K and you have yourself a price deterent. When we picked out wife's 3 convertible, it was priced in the 46's and by the time it hit the road in AZ with its higher sales tax and huge title fee, we had inched up to almost 49. i know how desperately my salesperson was trying to keep the basic price of the car under 47... i did not understand his insistence on dropping some packages initially but eventually realized he was basically desperately fighting to keep the total out the door price under 50k. Except the accidental acura salesman who has sold a NSX and trust me, most of them have been sold through phone calls and through the top bosses at the dealerships, most salespeople wouldn't have sold acura's out the door over 50k and it is a huge emotional stumbling block to cross for a lot of customers and dealerfolks. but then again, market realities may dictate that Acura just won't list closer to 45K due to all the technology they want a payback on...
Many local Acura dealers are uninformed on the new RL. This group is the best source on info! Re: brochures, don't count on any for a few months (from your Acura dealer). Price of gas? With an election coming, who wants to bet me that the price of fuel will not come down by 15% by election day?? Whether is stays that way, time will tell. I would not want an Acura RL Hybrid for I don't think they will exist for quite awhile. IMO, they will put that technology in the smaller Acura's first. Who would want to drive an RL with a CVT transmission that goes with all current hybrids?
I'm opined that the RL will not be available prior to 22 Sep 04. Fall begins on that date and Acura indicated officially, that the vehicle would be available in the fall - so, any day after 22 Sep 04 and any day before 22 Dec 04 will be "RL Day" (profound logic, huh?)
Demand, in my opinion, will be heavy! I believe many, to include myself, have already placed their $500.00 deposit and these "depositors" will absolutely consume the entire first three month allocations - I'm thinking that, conservatively, at least 4,500 Americans will have placed a $500 deposit. I've read somewhere that Acura projects to sell 1,200 a month, if their sales prediction is correct - supply will be tight! If "RL-Day" is, lets say 23 Sep 04, Non-depositors may not receive a vehicle until the Jan-Feb 05 time frame
Yes, there will be some defects in the first rounds, but I expect immediate fixes and Acura's first year introductions, have been, traditionally, very reliable...
ceric, deep blue intrigues me as well - chrome shows up nicely on the blues and the silvers. Hopefully our dealers will immediately mail us the brochures when they become availbale - which reminds me - I better call them about that brochure.
I'm with you as well on the price and look forward to making some posts here on Edmunds to share my impressions...on the new 05' RL.
Many local Acura dealers are uninformed on the new RL. This group is the best source on info! Re: brochures, don't count on any for a few months (from your Acura dealer). Price of gas? With an election coming, who wants to bet me that the price of fuel will not come down by 15% by election day?? Whether is stays that way, time will tell. I would not want an Acura RL Hybrid for I don't think they will exist for quite awhile. IMO, they will put that technology in the smaller Acura's first. Who would want to drive an RL with a CVT transmission that goes with all current hybrids?
There will be allot of pent up demand due to the current RL style (for the most part) has been "stale" for almost 10 years. You will have to wait to get one, with a waiting list for a bit. They will charge MSRP for quite a while. However, if under 47k, it will be worth the wait... waiting list to see what "bugs" need to be shaken out.
>I think he was refering to the fact that Toyota slightly edged out Chrysler for sales numbers in the US at the end of last year, rather than location. <
I think that he knew perfectly well what I meant, but chose instead to further demonstrate his knowledge of automotive minutia.
>Demand, in my opinion, will be heavy! I believe many, to include myself, have already placed their $500.00 deposit and these "depositors" will absolutely consume the entire first three month allocations<
Thanks for that input shotgun and others who have ventured an opinion.
I agree that there will be a lot of pent-up demand, and I have to include myself in that. If Acura had significantly overhauled the RL anytime over the last 4 years, and actually made a true flagship car, I likely would have bought one then and there. I myself have been waiting a long time for the new and improved RL.
It will be interesting to watch -- if it is possible to discern -- whether the car will continue strong sales after the inital "pent-up demand" is satisfied; whether it is drawing from a new audience of lower cost Acura owners or non Acura owners, such as German car enthusiasts.
Will the BMW 6 series pull former Acura RL owners over to German side?
Post pent-up demand buying will be determined by the feed-back left by "depositors" and message traffic left on other boards. However, the biggest impact will be felt by what the the auto magazines have to say. Lets face it...Acura is giving the media something really original, new, and exciting to write about...SH-AWD! The media, as mentioned before, will be in an absolute frenzy, describing what will be the next, new, ultimate driving machine...
...Honda-powered cars dominated this year's 500, taking the first seven places. Defending IRL champion Scott Dixon, driving a G Force/Toyota, finished eighth, while Alex Barron, who placed 12th, was the first Chevy driver home...
. . .my local Acrua dealer claims a price point of $49,600. While this is hardly well below $50K -- and the gap between the TL and RL seems to be widening, well -- does it make sense that the car, after slow forward evolution for 10 years will have as many takers as they can mint them?
The new for 05 product from all over will, perhaps, cause discounting (beyond the initial feeding frenzy -- see Chrysler 300C board) and this may make the RL more of a bargain.
The TL despite my personal concerns about torque steer seems to be a bargain. The RL at $49K+ seems NOT to be a bargain, but also not to be overpriced.
Yet, and here is where y'all may cut me to pieces, the RL at $49K+ seems to me to be the same bargain that the Phaeton can be seen to be at sub $69K+. Most folks howl at the notion of a VW at this price point -- but I have looked the the Audi, BMW and Mercedes "same class" cars and they are 5 figures to the north of the Phaeton.
Yet the Phaeton, here in RiverCity is -- this week -- now at $599/mo ~ $3450/down @ 48 months -- advertised. And there they sit on dealer's lots.
Now comparing Acura and VW, I'll grant may not be apples and apples -- but the Phaeton is an attempt to be an upscale VW as the Acurca is an upscale Honda (dropped word attempt on purpose).
The new for '05 stuff compared with the Acura may make the V6 Acura seem to be NOT a bargain (which is to say too, not OVERPRICED). When $49K+ is the number (MSRP or negotiated final price) the choices are broad.
To me what this means is that this new Acura MAY have some difficulty being noticed amongst all the other new for 05 cars all screaming "pick me, pick me!"
Even if it is for psychological reason, I think the new RL needs to drop about $2K.
Or have a kickin' lease program roll out (a la the Phaeton).
After all, if you have to pay a number beginning with a $6 or a $7 for the Acura -- and there are others "out there" who'll do it for less, well the temporary coolness of the latest and greatest technology will fade -- in my guess, less than 120 days from launch.
Mark, I agree with you. At $49K it is hardly a bargain/steal. Even though a similarly equipped BMW 530iA could runs more than $55K, people still willingly pay premium for BMW name brand. The power of marketing. You need to be burnt at least once to "appreciate" BMW's reliability (compared with Acura/Infiniti and Lexus).
At $49K, I would test-drive the car when it arrives and decide whether to take it or not. I think Acura should hold the line at current MSRP level at $46K to reach its sales target. That would be fair and competitive to GS300-AWD and M35-AWD, both would be around that price point.
Agreed. I think Acura will (if not, then they should) watch very closely where Lexus prices its GS300. I'm sure that there are many people that, if an RL costs 50 grand, will say but yeah I can get a LEXUS for less than this. What Acura is probably thinking is they've got enough horsepower to go up against GS430 and M45, which Im sure $49,6 is at least 2K below what those will cost, but then.. theres only a V6 under there. It shouldnt matter, but the V8 badge still carries a lot of clout. That might just get people thinking, but I can get a 340hp M45 for only an extra $2K.
If the V8 "badge" carries so much clout, why doesn't anybody buy them?
I don't think anyone is going to view the RL as a competitor to the V8 GS430 and M45. Frankly, I think the only reason why those two cars keep being mentioned in this thread is so that we can point out how they aren't competition. There's plenty of market share to be had in the six cylinder end of the pool. Running in circles around the V8 cars just distracts from what the RL is really about. If promises come true, the new RL is a strong return to the segment that the Legend filled. It should be judged for what it is.
Apples to Oranges indeed! Whereas the VW Phaeton is just now entering the upper end of the luxury market - Acura's RL has been, firmly, in the middle ranks of the segment for years. It, the RL, with it's SH-AWD, is merely re-establishing itself in a market segment it once dominated. Additionally, for what's it's worth, Acura has almost always been respected for quality, reliability, and performance...VW has not!
I agree that $49,700 might be pushing it - However, $47, 500 is a reasonable price to pay for the promised performance and technology the 05' RL offers. Pricing the 05' RL at or less than the current 04' model would, without question, be an absolute steal.
Again, if the 05' RL substantially outclasses it's peers (5, E, classes etc.) ...$50K will be a fair price to pay for those who purchase this class of automobile...
Let us not forget that '04 GS300 also costs $45.5K fully loaded. That is without AWD, which usually costs at least $2K more. Thus, we are looking at least $48K for '05 GS300-AWD to compare with. M35-AWD would come fully loaded around $50K to $52K (priced at Infiniti site). It is going to be a dog fight when they all hit the market. Great for consumers. RL would come with hp advantage and the superior SH-AWD. Do majority of consumers care about both? Time will tell. I know enthusiasts would.
Not that Im one of those "has to have a V8 and RWD!!!!" morons. What Im saying is that Acura has to be careful where it prices the RL. When you've got a 6, you've got to price against the other guy's sixes. They wont have to worry about Germany, as thanks to current exchange rates, an '05 E350? will probably be $56K. But there is Toyota and Nissan to deal with.
>Not that Im one of those "has to have a V8 and RWD!!!!" morons. What Im saying is that Acura has to be careful where it prices the RL. When you've got a 6, you've got to price against the other guy's sixes<
I know that some of you will consider the following to be heresy, but Acura has to be careful about prices simply because it's an Acura, and not a Lexus, BMW or Mercedes. Just as there is price resistance in the stock market, so too is there resistance in the automotive field. Using that analogy, Acura has tested the lows for the RL over the past several years, and that floor kept getting lower and lower each year, vis a vis, RL unit sales sold.
Notwithstanding many of the spiffy new improvements, let us not forget that the RL is coming back from the living dead and hopefully, out of the doghouse, and out of obscurity. My view is that Acura would do well just to get unit sales up incrementally, and not seek to put the recapture of lost profits on the 'shoulders' of this new model by virtue of a high purchase cost.
The value of the new RL -- its super handling characteristics, 300 HP engine and whatever cache it may engender, will all have to be determined in the marketplace; and simultaneoulsly, weighed against all the other brands that sell at or near this price range.
Yep. Acura has realized that they have to wake up and make a competent car if they want to stay in business. Too bad everyone else has smelled the coffee as well. If the automotive industry was cutthroat now, just wait until '05 and 6.
Very eloquently stated legendman! I agree with your and the other recent posts hypothesizing that Acura must be spot-on with their pricing - its absolutely critical they get it right. However, I firmly believe, that the RL's mix of performance and technology enhancements and given Acuras reputation for rock solid reliability and quality - will bode well for them in the market place. I also believe, legendman, that Acura has caught their peers off guard with SH-AWD. They will capitalize on that! If priced right, value conscious consumers and enthusiasts alike will render the new RL a very, very, "hot" item...
By my calculations: with 300hp and a Max Torque rpm range of around 5800.......... that puts the 05' RL torque at 271ft/lbs of torque..........So put a BIG CHECK MARK on that!! The RL will probably do 60 around 5.5 seconds........
300 HP from 3474 cc (assuming Acura will stick to J35A) will be difficult to achieve at 5800 rpm or so, and more likely to happen at about 6200 rpm. So, my bet will be on a peak torque of about 265 lb.-ft, arriving somewhere between 4000-5000 rpm. That would be impressive too, knowing that it is going to power a luxury sedan with typical Honda consideration for emissions, likely (at least) ULEV rated engine (both aspects compromise a little output).
Assuming 3800 lb. curb weight, peak power to weight ratio would be about 12.7 lb./hp. And with automatic transmission, 0-60 run will likely be accomplished in low 6 second range (potentially the quickest six cylinder luxury sedan in the class). A manual transmission could help bring the time down to mid 5-second range but I doubt it will happen.
As much as I would like to see Acura pricing RL under $45K, I also realize that if they couldn’t they shouldn’t because it can mean compromise on appointments. And that compromise wouldn’t help in building a brand recognition that Acura needs. For volume sales, Acura has two-three vehicles that are doing the job well (TSX, TL and MDX).
I suspect the pricing will be in $45K range, and that will leave enough room between base TL and RL for a potential SH-AWD TL in the future (about $40K).
As far as price comparisons go, Acura is known to fully equip the cars, with little to no options. This is in contrast to companies like BMW and Lexus that will ask more for options, sometimes including leather on top of the base price. I have a feeling that Lexus GS300 (“GS330” or “GS350” is a possibility), Infiniti M35, Audi A6 and Acura RL will be priced similarly (similarly equipped), and BMW 530 and Mercedes E320 would be higher as they already are.
Pricing is unlikely to play a big role, not even perception of “premium brand” should given the volume involved. I doubt there will be a clear winner or loser in the bunch, much like the TL, ES330, G35 (including Coupe because it seems to account for nearly a half of total G35 sales) and 3-series.
The pricing model for the new A6, I fear, will push it several thousands above the RL; it will, however, include maintenance -- but maintenance requirements continue to spiral downward, so that is becoming a lower priortiy issue with each new generation.
The catch will be the options -- sure, a $45K Audi A6 3.2 6spd tiptronic quattro will probably be available. But add premium package, cold weather package and sat nav (plus a sound system upgrade) and POW, there you are north of $50K and the car will have 255 HP and a 0-60 time of what 7.1 seconds?
Of course, for some (perhaps me, included) it will be an Audi and even though it may be considered as #3 of the Premium Big 3 German Brands, well it still carries that European cache that the Acura will lack.
It just seems that Acura has to be careful, moreso this time than perhaps in the past few years, with the new models from all over the world coming out, seemingly, in 2005.
Perhaps the way to make this happen is through the financial arm -- great lease offerings and great financing offerings. In this way they could maintain the price point but "effectively discount" by virture of a relatively low monthly nut for no more than 39 months.
Either way, Lexus, for one, isn't going to take this lying down -- they will not go quietly.
I realize that this is NOW, but yesterday I noticed that SAAB has a new 24 month lease program. I already mentioned a low lease program for the Phaeton -- and who cares if its residual is poor, the payment is low.
Saab has adopted the General's 24hr test drive as well. I'm still not paying even as low as $270\mo for 24 months for essentially a Chevy Malibu. Its rather odd that isnt causing more controversy. People FREAKED about the Mondeo guts in a Jaguar, but nobody seems to care that the Saab is a ripped off Chevy rental fleet car.
Every day for the past 90 or so, the reports from the economy and market firms seems to indicate (despite a market downturn) that the economy is "soaring" or is set to soar. Their words, not mine.
Acura, with the current RL, is not in a leadership position, even though there has been decent positive press and obviously market acceptance of the TL.
So they come out with this new, high zoot, RL -- it appears that this new puppy will have "all the right stuff." But wait, here come fill-in-the-blank 2005 model after model after model. The field, in this range "low $40's to low $50's" isn't, from my perspective, crowded -- but it is competitive as all get out and promising to become more competitive over the next 18 months, as in "you ain't seen nothin' yet." Set against a backdrop of a shallow, apparently long and pernicious recession -- well consumer's willingness to spend can be said to have been tempered.
Anecdotally, the folks that I consider in my peer group have been "A6, 5 series, E class and maybe even Lexus GS" class buyers -- have is the operative word. The remarks or dollars I see being spent -- the latter being the most telling -- are going for Cadillac CTS's, A4's, 3 series, C class and ES" cars -- the reason "lower lease payments" (and perhaps better milage as the step down cars often are more fuel efficient.
One guy even looked at the Acura TL before he went from 5 series to Cadillac CTS (and he claims he actually test drove a 300C and that it was a contender, but his wife thought it was too big).
The age group of folks that I socialize with is generally mid to upper 30's to mid to upper 50's. The entire mindset just 3 or 4 years ago was, "if you got a 5 series this time, you would get a 7 series next time. . .because you had already stepped up from the 3 series." 9-11, recession, return or turning to "different" values seems to be the norm, now. One man, in the time period I just mentioned has added two children and $35+K plus cars "suddenly" seem more, uh, appropriate -- college funds, and all competing for his $.
Another guy decided a weekend house on the lake and a Mastercraft boat (with a Corvette engine) towed by a Bravada makes more sense than another 5 series.
Perhaps the next generation of buyers will look to the RL and other $50K cars -- but, I read an interesting statistic: the fasted growing population in the US are people over the age of 65, and within that group an even more rapidly growing group are people over 79 -- the country is aging -- and even those with deep pockets are eschewing these cars.
My Lexus buddy claims the Lexus will soon be replaced with an SUV (GMC is the brand -- Denali?, is that right?) -- he retired in January in his late 50's with a generous buy out.
Anecdotal, yes. . .but I've been taking the same way home for 12 years now and although there are plenty of new cars dotting the driveways on my route, the cars (and SUV's) have taken on a decidedly more economical character. My neighbor's kids all turned driving age within the past two years -- his approach is to replace two upscale, and expensive cars, with 4 Toyotas of varying ilk plus 1 VW R32 in bright Blue!
They say there is always room at the top -- and that may well be true. The top, however, seems less interested in high-buck stuff (insofar as cars are concerned) than they were before 9-11.
Or so it seems.
Great time to be a car buyer, methinks, not as great a time to be bringing out yet another slightly south of $50K car -- a maxed out SH-AWD TL for $39,995, would certainly give me pause if it sat next to a $49,600 RL. And if the TL came with either auto or manual tranmission options, the RL might put Acura in the uncomfortable position of bringing a car to market that, while not overpriced, is not priced at a compelling point -- at least not until the Acura image is refreshed by the new product.
The next 18 months should be a blast, if you are car shopping during that period.
>As much as I would like to see Acura pricing RL under $45K, I also realize that if they couldn’t they shouldn’t because it can mean compromise on appointments. And that compromise wouldn’t help in building a brand recognition that Acura needs<
I absolutely agree with that. Acura should not skimp on the cabin interior appointments. Acura has done that over the last several years and in my view it was a major turn off.
Quality wood, leather, buttons, and interior switches should all be first rate. It does not need to be a Rolls Royce inside, but neither should it be a Nissan Maxima or Toyota Camry. I would much prefer to spend an extra $500 to $1000 more for that level of luxury and quality.
>Another guy decided a weekend house on the lake and a Mastercraft boat (with a Corvette engine) towed by a Bravada makes more sense than another 5 series<.
Well, we didn't get a Bravada, nor did we get a Mastercraft, but we did just order a Malibu Response LXi ski boat with a "torquey" 340 HP Indmar Monsoon engine. Brother-in-law has Toyota Highlander to trailer it.
My girlfriend drives (or pushes) an Olds Bravada. What a POS! I practically have to drive behind it picking up all the parts as they fall off. She's thinking about getting a Mitsubishi Endeavor. The price is really right as is the 10 year/100,000 mile power train warranty. The only fly in the ointment is whether or not Mitsubishi will be around ten years from now.
. . .for perhaps obvious reasons they got a good deal, great warranty and "no issues" thus far.
The point, was not so much to claim the Bravada was a "player" -- the MDX would have been better, IMHO.
The point was that the Acura needs to be mindful of coming back kinda from the dying (with the current RL) to the thriving with a too zealous and optimistic price point.
The only nit I am picking is that the price @ $49,600 seems "reasonable" -- but perhaps unmotivating for some on this the first NEW RL to hit the bricks in practically 10 years (perception is reality).
"As a Legend LS owner you caught my interest with your perspective on the new RL.
I would genuinely like to hear more on what segment you feel that the Legend filled, and by extension, had been lost in the RLs that came after." - Legendman
The original Legend was never much of a sports car (it was okay, but no BMW). However, it did provide some sporting feeling with a decent engine and good brakes. And at least it looked the part. Even today, old Legends have a nice stance and crisp lines. Those cars were relatively inexpensive when compared to the competition and provided a top notch interior at a time when the industry was pretty skimpy with interior details.
The car didn't really have any direct competition as it was positioned as a bit of a tweener. It wasn't a direct competitor with the sporty germans and yet it wasn't a floatmobile like the Caddys and Lincolns of the time.
The current RL appears to be a half-hearted attempt to go full-blown luxury. I'd assume that they were trying to chase Lexus when they decided to go with completely conservative sheetmetal and not a hint of sport. I can understand the logic of a full-lux car, but Honda/Acura did a poor job of it.
With the new RL, they seem to be seeking out that half-way point between sport and luxury. That niche has worked well with the MDX, the current TL, the last TL, and, on a more modest scale, the TSX. SH-AWD and a rip snort V6 should give the RL just enough sport to keep it competitive with the others (which are priced much higher). The styling is not bold, but not invisible, either. It looks like what it is. Acura has been doing very well with their latest interiors and I expect nothing less from the new RL. All in all, there are a lot of the same qualities that made the Legend a hit.
I'm expecting something between 47 and 49K. Anything less would require significant cost-cutting and would keep the Acura name in the bargain bin. That is not where a luxury nameplate belongs.
I also don't think that Acura will suffer too badly if the market fails to buy at MSRP prices. I know that Chrysler lost quite a bit by offering the Pacifica with too high a price and too many loaded models. But that car is junk with a high price tag. Okay, maybe "junk" is too strong a term, but it is lacking in too many basic areas (the engine for example). The new RL does not appear to be junk. The basic car looks good and solid. If the market fails to buy at MSRP, Acura can drop the price.
I think they are better off setting their sights north of $48K.
Thank you for your insightful posts on the Legend of yesteryear and with any luck, it's reemergence in the new RL.
Separately, I like the looks of and design concept behind the Pacifica. To me it's a great looking car. Trouble is, it's made by Chrysler, and they along with their parent company Mercedes have not been making the most reliable cars as of late.
Push her towards a Highlander or a Pilot. Or even a Murano if she wants something a little quircky. Mitsubishi's engines are so crude its hard to believe they actually come from japan, even Hyundia has more engine technology than Mitsubishi does now. They're also still stuck using 4-speed slushboxes, and last time I checked, Mitsubishi's didnt score very well in crash tests. Even a Sorento would be a better choice.
>Push her towards a Highlander or a Pilot. Or even a Murano if she wants something a little quircky. Mitsubishi's engines are so crude its hard to believe they actually come from japan, even Hyundia has more engine technology than Mitsubishi does now. They're also still stuck using 4-speed slushboxes, and last time I checked, Mitsubishi's didnt score very well in crash tests. Even a Sorento would be a better choice. <
That's a pretty strong indictment of the Mitsubishi Endeavor. Thanks for the heads up, LexusGuy. We were looking at Hyundai Santa Fe earlier but owner comments were alarming. Lots of problems, including the engine, and to make matters worse, very poor dealer response was frequently reported. Conversely, the Endeavor gets incrediby high owner comments -- on a scale of 1-10, it averages about 9.6 over all areas.
I agree that Honda's or Toyota's products would be much better, and of course those would be my choice, but they are more expensive. The Pilot is roughly $10 grand more, yet oh so boring. We looked at the Morano -- I was intrigued but she didn't like it. Plus it was much more money. What do you know about Kia?
She insists on buying this car herself and she doesn't have a big budget. My plan B is to see if we could get her a gently used Lexus RX300 still under warranty. My folks have two of them, love them, and they have been, not surprisingly, maintenance free to-date.
I know we should not hijack the forum to talk about Hyundai and Mitsu, so let me make it short. In early days, Hyundai bought engines from Mitsu. Now, I lost track of recent development. BTW, Mitsu is a very respectable company in Japan. Its core competency is heavy industry. It makes ships, airplanes, IC, Electronics, you name it. It may have fumbled on automobiles, but it is respectable as a Japanese company.
The risk of buying Mitsu automobiles now is that they may disappear from US in several years if the last attempt of fund injection from Mitsu parent company and new CEO from Hyundai can not save it. We will see.
Just thought I'd let you know that I'm looking at the '05 RL as my first Acura. Starting in '73 I've had four BMW's. Since Germany's PM campaigned on an anti U.S. platform and was elected by the PEOPLE, then stuck a stick in our eye at the U.N Security Council on the vote on Iraq, I figure to hell with them. Germany will get no more of my money.
I sold what I was driving, a '88 325ix, which was the first all-wheel drive I had owned, and although a bit long in tooth was in fantastic shape and was an absolute blast to drive, and I loved it in bad weather.
So now that I'm looking for something new I'm absolutely fixated on the new RL. I test drove my first Acura this last weekend in K.C. It was an '04 TL and thought it was great but I still want the RL.
Anyway I just wanted to say that when I looked for a German alternative Japan was the next choice. I first looked at the Infinite FX, nice but thought the styling would age too fast. Then the Lexus 330 and although the styling had improved (I loved the interior)I thought it would look dated in a short while. Then N.Y. and the RL, WOW! I may not have the money til spring and if so I hope I have the patience to go through an other KS winter, but WOW! To me it looks so much better than the new Bimmers (sorry but the [non-permissible content removed] ends on the 7's and to a lesser extent the 5's are just hideous). So bless you all and I'm excited about becoming a new Acura owner.
> To me it looks so much better than the new Bimmers (sorry but the [non-permissible content removed] ends on the 7's and to a lesser extent the 5's are just hideous). So bless you all and I'm excited about becoming a new Acura owner <
I have to agree with you regarding the new BMW styling -- although "styling" may not be the right word anymore as far as BMW is concerned.
I think that things have been going down hill at BMW since Chris Bangle designed the new, hump backed 7 series. In that one design he managed to take what was and remains a classically elegant and distinquished form (740 iL) and morph it into a Photoshop nightmare - the mating of a Ford Taurus with a Plymouth Breeze.
I have owned Japanese cars (Honda and Acura) since 1982. They are very reliable, and their engines are considered bulletproof. You will save tons of money on maintenance, and your car will stay in your driveway instead of sleeping overnight at the shop.
Other than brakes and oil changes, you could easily go 7-9 years or 90,000 miles before encountering any large expense -- and some of that expense will be the scheduled timing belt/water pump service.
I have owned German cars, Swedish cars, and American cars. They all cost me a bloody fortune to own. That all changed when I bought my first Honda Accord.
A late-model CPO Lexus RX or Acura MDX is a very good idea. Both are excellent, excellent cars, (and the Acura still looks the same, so theres less of a feeling of "settling" for the old model.) and should last a very long time. My wife's RX now has about 50K on it, and hasnt had even the slightest problem. How much of a "driver" is the little lady? If she is just looking for a quiet, reliable ride from A to B, the RX is smoother, and has better interior appointments (though the center stack loses to Acura, not one of Lexus' better HVAC and stereo control designs. Fortunately they fixed that with the 330). The RX is not particularly exciting to drive, and has rather prodigous body roll if you take some corners agressively. The MDX is more fun, though a little stiffer, and you'll notice road imperfections more. The wood is faux and the leather isnt as good, but it gets the job done, and the stereo and NAV are arguably as good as Lexus. She really should try them both on.
Hi, first timer. Indeed, RL has the time-enduring look as most Honda designs are. They are not eye-catching, flashy, but they look good even after many years. Welcome to '05 RL board. I look forward to exchange viewpoints with you.
Essentially, I think the Pacifica was designed as a $28K car, onto which they added enough stuff to justify a 40K price tag. Underneath all the toys it was still a 28K vehicle. That's probably why the market rejected the 40k price.
Anyway, I brought up the Pacifica because I don't see that happening with the RL. The RL appears to be a legitimate player in the 45-50K range. It appears to have the stuff to back up the price. It's not just a tarted up display on a fairly mundane base. So the RL may not hold at MSRP for very long, but it shouldn't drop the way the Pacifica did (or the current RL for that matter). If the MSRP is 49K and it doesn't sell, it will go for 46K.
I read your review on the Pacifica, Varmint. You are quite prolific, and a darn good writer. Too bad about the Pacifica -- it's got nice lines but I guess that they are mostly a facade.
She hated the Element, by the way. Thanks.
Back to the RL:
>the RL may not hold at MSRP for very long, but it shouldn't drop the way the Pacifica did (or the current RL for that matter). If the MSRP is 49K and it doesn't sell, it will go for 46K<
How long do you think it will take for Acura to come to such a conclusion? By November or December '04?
Interesting advertisement in new issue of Newsweek (with "cool phones" on the cover).
Inside cover, ad for IBM business solutions. PIcture of the RL, front view, in black, looks a little more production ready than the model we saw at the intro. Definitely looks good, maybe even better than the TL. Aggressive yet classy and powerful.
The ad says "the new Acura 2005 RL automatically downloads diagnostic data, maintenance reminders, and up to the minute traffic conditions. IBM business consultants helped. Acura delivered"
its always secondary advertising like that that helps people notice a car... i can bet some % of the sales will be driven purely by such peripheral advocacy, and then there is the additional footage you get out of getting the brand noticed more.... nothing like the big blue showing off your car in a well circulated magazine.
>nothing like the big blue showing off your car in a well circulated magazine<
I agree. That's a coup for Acura and it ain't half bad for IBM either.
You're right about the secondary advertising, as you put it. It helps create a buzz, and a coolness quotient that an Acura ad alone might not generate.
Speaking of ads, maybe Acura ought to hire away the same ad agency whiz kids that did the ads for Mitsubishi cars. Say what you will about the car and the company, their music driven ads and hipster marketing have really resonated with the twenty-something entry-level set. Imagine if the RL got that kind of energy when it is launched this fall. And I do mean launched!
Comments
my 3 cents:)
Demand, in my opinion, will be heavy! I believe many, to include myself, have already placed their $500.00 deposit and these "depositors" will absolutely consume the entire first three month allocations - I'm thinking that, conservatively, at least 4,500 Americans will have placed a $500 deposit. I've read somewhere that Acura projects to sell 1,200 a month, if their sales prediction is correct - supply will be tight! If "RL-Day" is, lets say 23 Sep 04, Non-depositors may not receive a vehicle until the Jan-Feb 05 time frame
Yes, there will be some defects in the first rounds, but I expect immediate fixes and Acura's first year introductions, have been, traditionally, very reliable...
I'm with you as well on the price and look forward to making some posts here on Edmunds to share my impressions...on the new 05' RL.
my 3 cents:)
I think that he knew perfectly well what I meant, but chose instead to further demonstrate his knowledge of automotive minutia.
Thanks for that input shotgun and others who have ventured an opinion.
I agree that there will be a lot of pent-up demand, and I have to include myself in that. If Acura had significantly overhauled the RL anytime over the last 4 years, and actually made a true flagship car, I likely would have bought one then and there. I myself have been waiting a long time for the new and improved RL.
It will be interesting to watch -- if it is possible to discern -- whether the car will continue strong sales after the inital "pent-up demand" is satisfied; whether it is drawing from a new audience of lower cost Acura owners or non Acura owners, such as German car enthusiasts.
Will the BMW 6 series pull former Acura RL owners over to German side?
Thanks!
...Honda-powered cars dominated this year's 500, taking the first seven places. Defending IRL champion Scott Dixon, driving a G Force/Toyota, finished eighth, while Alex Barron, who placed 12th, was the first Chevy driver home...
The new for 05 product from all over will, perhaps, cause discounting (beyond the initial feeding frenzy -- see Chrysler 300C board) and this may make the RL more of a bargain.
The TL despite my personal concerns about torque steer seems to be a bargain. The RL at $49K+ seems NOT to be a bargain, but also not to be overpriced.
Yet, and here is where y'all may cut me to pieces, the RL at $49K+ seems to me to be the same bargain that the Phaeton can be seen to be at sub $69K+. Most folks howl at the notion of a VW at this price point -- but I have looked the the Audi, BMW and Mercedes "same class" cars and they are 5 figures to the north of the Phaeton.
Yet the Phaeton, here in RiverCity is -- this week -- now at $599/mo ~ $3450/down @ 48 months -- advertised. And there they sit on dealer's lots.
Now comparing Acura and VW, I'll grant may not be apples and apples -- but the Phaeton is an attempt to be an upscale VW as the Acurca is an upscale Honda (dropped word attempt on purpose).
The new for '05 stuff compared with the Acura may make the V6 Acura seem to be NOT a bargain (which is to say too, not OVERPRICED). When $49K+ is the number (MSRP or negotiated final price) the choices are broad.
To me what this means is that this new Acura MAY have some difficulty being noticed amongst all the other new for 05 cars all screaming "pick me, pick me!"
Even if it is for psychological reason, I think the new RL needs to drop about $2K.
Or have a kickin' lease program roll out (a la the Phaeton).
After all, if you have to pay a number beginning with a $6 or a $7 for the Acura -- and there are others "out there" who'll do it for less, well the temporary coolness of the latest and greatest technology will fade -- in my guess, less than 120 days from launch.
Time will tell. . . .
At $49K, I would test-drive the car when it arrives and decide whether to take it or not. I think Acura should hold the line at current MSRP level at $46K to reach its sales target. That would be fair and competitive to GS300-AWD and M35-AWD, both would be around that price point.
I don't think anyone is going to view the RL as a competitor to the V8 GS430 and M45. Frankly, I think the only reason why those two cars keep being mentioned in this thread is so that we can point out how they aren't competition. There's plenty of market share to be had in the six cylinder end of the pool. Running in circles around the V8 cars just distracts from what the RL is really about. If promises come true, the new RL is a strong return to the segment that the Legend filled. It should be judged for what it is.
Varmint: As a Legend LS owner you caught my interest with your perspective on the new RL.
I would genuinely like to hear more on what segment you feel that the Legend filled, and by extension, had been lost in the RLs that came after.
I agree that $49,700 might be pushing it - However, $47, 500 is a reasonable price to pay for the promised performance and technology the 05' RL offers. Pricing the 05' RL at or less than the current 04' model would, without question, be an absolute steal.
Again, if the 05' RL substantially outclasses it's peers (5, E, classes etc.) ...$50K will be a fair price to pay for those who purchase this class of automobile...
I know that some of you will consider the following to be heresy, but Acura has to be careful about prices simply because it's an Acura, and not a Lexus, BMW or Mercedes. Just as there is price resistance in the stock market, so too is there resistance in the automotive field. Using that analogy, Acura has tested the lows for the RL over the past several years, and that floor kept getting lower and lower each year, vis a vis, RL unit sales sold.
Notwithstanding many of the spiffy new improvements, let us not forget that the RL is coming back from the living dead and hopefully, out of the doghouse, and out of obscurity. My view is that Acura would do well just to get unit sales up incrementally, and not seek to put the recapture of lost profits on the 'shoulders' of this new model by virtue of a high purchase cost.
The value of the new RL -- its super handling characteristics, 300 HP engine and whatever cache it may engender, will all have to be determined in the marketplace; and simultaneoulsly, weighed against all the other brands that sell at or near this price range.
300 HP from 3474 cc (assuming Acura will stick to J35A) will be difficult to achieve at 5800 rpm or so, and more likely to happen at about 6200 rpm. So, my bet will be on a peak torque of about 265 lb.-ft, arriving somewhere between 4000-5000 rpm. That would be impressive too, knowing that it is going to power a luxury sedan with typical Honda consideration for emissions, likely (at least) ULEV rated engine (both aspects compromise a little output).
Assuming 3800 lb. curb weight, peak power to weight ratio would be about 12.7 lb./hp. And with automatic transmission, 0-60 run will likely be accomplished in low 6 second range (potentially the quickest six cylinder luxury sedan in the class). A manual transmission could help bring the time down to mid 5-second range but I doubt it will happen.
I suspect the pricing will be in $45K range, and that will leave enough room between base TL and RL for a potential SH-AWD TL in the future (about $40K).
As far as price comparisons go, Acura is known to fully equip the cars, with little to no options. This is in contrast to companies like BMW and Lexus that will ask more for options, sometimes including leather on top of the base price. I have a feeling that Lexus GS300 (“GS330” or “GS350” is a possibility), Infiniti M35, Audi A6 and Acura RL will be priced similarly (similarly equipped), and BMW 530 and Mercedes E320 would be higher as they already are.
Pricing is unlikely to play a big role, not even perception of “premium brand” should given the volume involved. I doubt there will be a clear winner or loser in the bunch, much like the TL, ES330, G35 (including Coupe because it seems to account for nearly a half of total G35 sales) and 3-series.
The catch will be the options -- sure, a $45K Audi A6 3.2 6spd tiptronic quattro will probably be available. But add premium package, cold weather package and sat nav (plus a sound system upgrade) and POW, there you are north of $50K and the car will have 255 HP and a 0-60 time of what 7.1 seconds?
Of course, for some (perhaps me, included) it will be an Audi and even though it may be considered as #3 of the Premium Big 3 German Brands, well it still carries that European cache that the Acura will lack.
It just seems that Acura has to be careful, moreso this time than perhaps in the past few years, with the new models from all over the world coming out, seemingly, in 2005.
Perhaps the way to make this happen is through the financial arm -- great lease offerings and great financing offerings. In this way they could maintain the price point but "effectively discount" by virture of a relatively low monthly nut for no more than 39 months.
Either way, Lexus, for one, isn't going to take this lying down -- they will not go quietly.
I realize that this is NOW, but yesterday I noticed that SAAB has a new 24 month lease program. I already mentioned a low lease program for the Phaeton -- and who cares if its residual is poor, the payment is low.
Acura, with the current RL, is not in a leadership position, even though there has been decent positive press and obviously market acceptance of the TL.
So they come out with this new, high zoot, RL -- it appears that this new puppy will have "all the right stuff." But wait, here come fill-in-the-blank 2005 model after model after model. The field, in this range "low $40's to low $50's" isn't, from my perspective, crowded -- but it is competitive as all get out and promising to become more competitive over the next 18 months, as in "you ain't seen nothin' yet." Set against a backdrop of a shallow, apparently long and pernicious recession -- well consumer's willingness to spend can be said to have been tempered.
Anecdotally, the folks that I consider in my peer group have been "A6, 5 series, E class and maybe even Lexus GS" class buyers -- have is the operative word. The remarks or dollars I see being spent -- the latter being the most telling -- are going for Cadillac CTS's, A4's, 3 series, C class and ES" cars -- the reason "lower lease payments" (and perhaps better milage as the step down cars often are more fuel efficient.
One guy even looked at the Acura TL before he went from 5 series to Cadillac CTS (and he claims he actually test drove a 300C and that it was a contender, but his wife thought it was too big).
The age group of folks that I socialize with is generally mid to upper 30's to mid to upper 50's. The entire mindset just 3 or 4 years ago was, "if you got a 5 series this time, you would get a 7 series next time. . .because you had already stepped up from the 3 series." 9-11, recession, return or turning to "different" values seems to be the norm, now. One man, in the time period I just mentioned has added two children and $35+K plus cars "suddenly" seem more, uh, appropriate -- college funds, and all competing for his $.
Another guy decided a weekend house on the lake and a Mastercraft boat (with a Corvette engine) towed by a Bravada makes more sense than another 5 series.
Perhaps the next generation of buyers will look to the RL and other $50K cars -- but, I read an interesting statistic: the fasted growing population in the US are people over the age of 65, and within that group an even more rapidly growing group are people over 79 -- the country is aging -- and even those with deep pockets are eschewing these cars.
My Lexus buddy claims the Lexus will soon be replaced with an SUV (GMC is the brand -- Denali?, is that right?) -- he retired in January in his late 50's with a generous buy out.
Anecdotal, yes. . .but I've been taking the same way home for 12 years now and although there are plenty of new cars dotting the driveways on my route, the cars (and SUV's) have taken on a decidedly more economical character. My neighbor's kids all turned driving age within the past two years -- his approach is to replace two upscale, and expensive cars, with 4 Toyotas of varying ilk plus 1 VW R32 in bright Blue!
They say there is always room at the top -- and that may well be true. The top, however, seems less interested in high-buck stuff (insofar as cars are concerned) than they were before 9-11.
Or so it seems.
Great time to be a car buyer, methinks, not as great a time to be bringing out yet another slightly south of $50K car -- a maxed out SH-AWD TL for $39,995, would certainly give me pause if it sat next to a $49,600 RL. And if the TL came with either auto or manual tranmission options, the RL might put Acura in the uncomfortable position of bringing a car to market that, while not overpriced, is not priced at a compelling point -- at least not until the Acura image is refreshed by the new product.
The next 18 months should be a blast, if you are car shopping during that period.
I absolutely agree with that. Acura should not skimp on the cabin interior appointments. Acura has done that over the last several years and in my view it was a major turn off.
Quality wood, leather, buttons, and interior switches should all be first rate. It does not need to be a Rolls Royce inside, but neither should it be a Nissan Maxima or Toyota Camry. I would much prefer to spend an extra $500 to $1000 more for that level of luxury and quality.
Well, we didn't get a Bravada, nor did we get a Mastercraft, but we did just order a Malibu Response LXi ski boat with a "torquey" 340 HP Indmar Monsoon engine. Brother-in-law has Toyota Highlander to trailer it.
My girlfriend drives (or pushes) an Olds Bravada. What a POS! I practically have to drive behind it picking up all the parts as they fall off. She's thinking about getting a Mitsubishi Endeavor. The price is really right as is the 10 year/100,000 mile power train warranty. The only fly in the ointment is whether or not Mitsubishi will be around ten years from now.
;-)
The point, was not so much to claim the Bravada was a "player" -- the MDX would have been better, IMHO.
The point was that the Acura needs to be mindful of coming back kinda from the dying (with the current RL) to the thriving with a too zealous and optimistic price point.
The only nit I am picking is that the price @ $49,600 seems "reasonable" -- but perhaps unmotivating for some on this the first NEW RL to hit the bricks in practically 10 years (perception is reality).
I would genuinely like to hear more on what segment you feel that the Legend filled, and by extension, had been lost in the RLs that came after." - Legendman
The original Legend was never much of a sports car (it was okay, but no BMW). However, it did provide some sporting feeling with a decent engine and good brakes. And at least it looked the part. Even today, old Legends have a nice stance and crisp lines. Those cars were relatively inexpensive when compared to the competition and provided a top notch interior at a time when the industry was pretty skimpy with interior details.
The car didn't really have any direct competition as it was positioned as a bit of a tweener. It wasn't a direct competitor with the sporty germans and yet it wasn't a floatmobile like the Caddys and Lincolns of the time.
The current RL appears to be a half-hearted attempt to go full-blown luxury. I'd assume that they were trying to chase Lexus when they decided to go with completely conservative sheetmetal and not a hint of sport. I can understand the logic of a full-lux car, but Honda/Acura did a poor job of it.
With the new RL, they seem to be seeking out that half-way point between sport and luxury. That niche has worked well with the MDX, the current TL, the last TL, and, on a more modest scale, the TSX. SH-AWD and a rip snort V6 should give the RL just enough sport to keep it competitive with the others (which are priced much higher). The styling is not bold, but not invisible, either. It looks like what it is. Acura has been doing very well with their latest interiors and I expect nothing less from the new RL. All in all, there are a lot of the same qualities that made the Legend a hit.
I also don't think that Acura will suffer too badly if the market fails to buy at MSRP prices. I know that Chrysler lost quite a bit by offering the Pacifica with too high a price and too many loaded models. But that car is junk with a high price tag. Okay, maybe "junk" is too strong a term, but it is lacking in too many basic areas (the engine for example). The new RL does not appear to be junk. The basic car looks good and solid. If the market fails to buy at MSRP, Acura can drop the price.
I think they are better off setting their sights north of $48K.
Separately, I like the looks of and design concept behind the Pacifica. To me it's a great looking car. Trouble is, it's made by Chrysler, and they along with their parent company Mercedes have not been making the most reliable cars as of late.
That's a pretty strong indictment of the Mitsubishi Endeavor. Thanks for the heads up, LexusGuy. We were looking at Hyundai Santa Fe earlier but owner comments were alarming. Lots of problems, including the engine, and to make matters worse, very poor dealer response was frequently reported. Conversely, the Endeavor gets incrediby high owner comments -- on a scale of 1-10, it averages about 9.6 over all areas.
I agree that Honda's or Toyota's products would be much better, and of course those would be my choice, but they are more expensive. The Pilot is roughly $10 grand more, yet oh so boring. We looked at the Morano -- I was intrigued but she didn't like it. Plus it was much more money. What do you know about Kia?
She insists on buying this car herself and she doesn't have a big budget. My plan B is to see if we could get her a gently used Lexus RX300 still under warranty. My folks have two of them, love them, and they have been, not surprisingly, maintenance free to-date.
The risk of buying Mitsu automobiles now is that they may disappear from US in several years if the last attempt of fund injection from Mitsu parent company and new CEO from Hyundai can not save it. We will see.
I sold what I was driving, a '88 325ix, which was the first all-wheel drive I had owned, and although a bit long in tooth was in fantastic shape and was an absolute blast to drive, and I loved it in bad weather.
So now that I'm looking for something new I'm absolutely fixated on the new RL. I test drove my first Acura this last weekend in K.C. It was an '04 TL and thought it was great but I still want the RL.
Anyway I just wanted to say that when I looked for a German alternative Japan was the next choice. I first looked at the Infinite FX, nice but thought the styling would age too fast. Then the Lexus 330 and although the styling had improved (I loved the interior)I thought it would look dated in a short while. Then N.Y. and the RL, WOW! I may not have the money til spring and if so I hope I have the patience to go through an other KS winter, but WOW! To me it looks so much better than the new Bimmers (sorry but the [non-permissible content removed] ends on the 7's and to a lesser extent the 5's are just hideous). So bless you all and I'm excited about becoming a new Acura owner.
I have to agree with you regarding the new BMW styling -- although "styling" may not be the right word anymore as far as BMW is concerned.
I think that things have been going down hill at BMW since Chris Bangle designed the new, hump backed 7 series. In that one design he managed to take what was and remains a classically elegant and distinquished form (740 iL) and morph it into a Photoshop nightmare - the mating of a Ford Taurus with a Plymouth Breeze.
I have owned Japanese cars (Honda and Acura) since 1982. They are very reliable, and their engines are considered bulletproof. You will save tons of money on maintenance, and your car will stay in your driveway instead of sleeping overnight at the shop.
Other than brakes and oil changes, you could easily go 7-9 years or 90,000 miles before encountering any large expense -- and some of that expense will be the scheduled timing belt/water pump service.
I have owned German cars, Swedish cars, and American cars. They all cost me a bloody fortune to own. That all changed when I bought my first Honda Accord.
Welcome to the club!
would you rather have a guy who calls a spade a spade or a steely blade in a silken sheath?
you will most definitel enjoy your first RL though, it may be the first fun RL yet...
ksso
would you rather have a guy who calls a spade a spade or a steely blade in a silken sheath?<
Huh?
varmint "Town Hall Test Drive Team" Jul 29, 2003 1:17pm
Essentially, I think the Pacifica was designed as a $28K car, onto which they added enough stuff to justify a 40K price tag. Underneath all the toys it was still a 28K vehicle. That's probably why the market rejected the 40k price.
Anyway, I brought up the Pacifica because I don't see that happening with the RL. The RL appears to be a legitimate player in the 45-50K range. It appears to have the stuff to back up the price. It's not just a tarted up display on a fairly mundane base. So the RL may not hold at MSRP for very long, but it shouldn't drop the way the Pacifica did (or the current RL for that matter). If the MSRP is 49K and it doesn't sell, it will go for 46K.
Oh, and have her drive the Element (kidding!).
She hated the Element, by the way. Thanks.
Back to the RL:
>the RL may not hold at MSRP for very long, but it shouldn't drop the way the Pacifica did (or the current RL for that matter). If the MSRP is 49K and it doesn't sell, it will go for 46K<
How long do you think it will take for Acura to come to such a conclusion? By November or December '04?
Inside cover, ad for IBM business solutions. PIcture of the RL, front view, in black, looks a little more production ready than the model we saw at the intro. Definitely looks good, maybe even better than the TL. Aggressive yet classy and powerful.
The ad says "the new Acura 2005 RL automatically downloads diagnostic data, maintenance reminders, and up to the minute traffic conditions. IBM business consultants helped. Acura delivered"
ksso
I agree. That's a coup for Acura and it ain't half bad for IBM either.
You're right about the secondary advertising, as you put it. It helps create a buzz, and a coolness quotient that an Acura ad alone might not generate.
Speaking of ads, maybe Acura ought to hire away the same ad agency whiz kids that did the ads for Mitsubishi cars. Say what you will about the car and the company, their music driven ads and hipster marketing have really resonated with the twenty-something entry-level set. Imagine if the RL got that kind of energy when it is launched this fall. And I do mean launched!