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Acura RL



  • mechrad1mechrad1 Posts: 26
    I have read thru all the posts for the last few week. I have seen long discussions about the 300 hp engine vs other with 250 or 280 hp. This is obviously important to some people. I doubt that I could tell the difference. One thing though that I can tell is the difference in looks between all the cars. I have not seen the RL in person yet. I have scanned many pictures. I am not impressed with the looks of this car. When a BMW or Lexus gs drives down the street, you know it. These cars have distinguishing appearances. The new RL appears to me to look like every other mid level sedan. The TL is fantastic, why is the RL not. At 50 grand I want my car to look special. Even if the car has a few more ponies I do not believe it will sell well if it just a plain vanilla car. For those of you have seen this car please tell me I am wrong and that it will be a head turner. Mercedes will always sell even at higher prices because of the elegant looks. IMHO I believe the RL will not be a big seller and if you wait a year there will be nice discounts coming off MSRP ( especially with new Lexus, Audi and Infiniti)

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The styling of the RL is very arguable. From what I've seen of it in person, its a good looking car, though it was not turning as many heads as the '05 GS430. Keep in mind though, its still the RL prototype, and the actual production car may change a bit. I dont think they'll have any trouble with sales though, as the previous TL, even though the design wasnt really all that interesting or unique, sold very well because of its incredibly strong value for the money. The new RL is the same. It will come with all the features that the competition requires you to spring for $$$$ of option packages, will be a fast, strong performer, and will undercut the german V6 cars by at least $5,000. That sounds like a recipie for success to me.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,092
    I believe "look" is very subjective. Bland look like the new RL lasts longer than the new BMW Bangled-look. I own '98 540 since new. Believe me, when your car broken down on highway like mine, everyone was looking and laughing. Even the patrolman who kindly stopped by to give a ride back to my smoking car from phone-booth....

    I appreciate BMW's driving dynamics, but am very fed up by its poor reliability (don't get me started) and arrogant service. When I look for a Japanese substitute, I need not look further than Acura and Infiniti. The new M35/45 has a look that I don't appreciate, but others do. My heart is set on RL. Too bad, the new M will show up later than RL. I don't think I could hold on for that long (6 months?) for an apple-2-apple comparison before I decide.

    There were a lot of nay-sayers of new TL before it comes out. Where are they now? A TL with Navi is so hard to find these days. And, did you ever sit in one lately? It will blow you off. German cars are so far behind in interior department, they don't even care anymore.

    When Japanese makers eventually catch up with German driving dynamics and aggressive/beautiful styling (and they will), what are the German marketing people going to do? "German engineering"? My BMW cannot even get the radiator work pass 50K. Sorry, I promise you not to start. My bad..

    To be fair, I loved my 540iA for 6 years. It gave me headaches and pleasures from times to times. The car I am looking for is one with BMW driving dynamics and Lexus reliability. I am betting on the new Acura RL.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think the '05 RL will be capable of going toe-to-toe with at least the E320 and A6 3.2 in terms of driving fun factor, and will cost a hell of a lot less than an E320 4matic and will be much faster to boot. I like Infinti as well, but Nissan's reliability is not on the level of Toyota and Honda (and Hyundai!?) and every single car they've done in the past few years, the interior has been woefully subpar. I'm really hoping that the new M finally breaks that trend, but Im not sure it will. I also dont think that the M35 will be able to outhandle the RL either. The TL is a fantastic homerun for Acura, and if it gets SH-AWD, it will easily be the best car in the segment, period. After the snooze cars of the mid 90s, its nice to have Acura back as a force to be reckoned with. The new GS is no slouch ether. Have you considered cross shopping that with the RL? It should be out around the same time.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,092
    I definitely will take a test-drive when it arrives (about the same time frame). However, I think Lexus fails at designing the rear, but acceptable at the front. I am sure the interior would be great, but 245hp? I won't keep my hope up. Performance-wise, you need GS430 to match 300hp. However, AWD is only available on V6 (GS300). Bad packaging, I'd say. It surely looks like Lexus simply doesn't design cars for me.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Im not so sure that the GS300 wont be able to keep up with the RL. Take a look at the LS for example. Only 290hp, far below the Q45, and yet it will easily beat the Q on a drag strip. Ever notice how Toyota's 235hp 4.7 V8 gets drawfed by the competitions 300+hp 5.x litres, and yet their SUVs with the 4.7s are pulling 8 second 0-60, just like the competition? I think the GS300 will be stronger than it appears, though of course I could be wrong.
  • uvacarmanuvacarman Posts: 9
    While I was picking up my new TL this week, I was talking to the dealer who told me that the new RL will come out this September. He did tell me that he was waiting till Janurary to buy his, because they will be coming out with a 4.0 Hybrid RL. He said its supposed to have crazy amounts of power, and will definitely be worth the wait. If this helps any of you out there waiting for the RL, you might want to consider waiting till Janurary.

  • steveaccordsteveaccord Posts: 108
    Thank you very much. I was hoping to hear something along those lines. Please make sure to report to us any update you may come across on this topic of Hybrid RL.

  • cericceric Posts: 1,092
    Hybrid 4.0L RL? In Jan 2005? If that is the case, I am waiting for it.

    Lexusguy, Toyata make good engines than others, but not as good as those from Honda and BMW. IC Engines are not the forte of Toyota.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I disagree. When it comes to 4 cylinders, Honda does them like no one else. Ther germans cant even get close. However, Toyota's Inline 6 that was in the Supra\SC300\GS300\IS300 is one of the best 6 cylinders ever made. Have you seen how much horsepower that engine is capable of? I've seen super tuned Supra's pushing over 1000hp.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,092

    Ward's 10 best engines of 2004:
    1. D/C 5.7 liter HEMI V-8 (335-345hp/370-390ft/lbs of torque)
    2. GMs 4.2 liter Inline DOHC 24 valve 6 275hp
    3. BMW 3.2 liter M3 inline 6 333hp
    4. Honda 3.0 liter 240hp
    5. Nissan 3.5 liter DOHC V-6 (240-287hp)
    6. Mazda 1.3 liter Rotary engine. (197-238hp)
    7. Subaru's 2.5 liter flat 4 with 300hp from the WRX Sti.
    8. Audi's 4.2 liter DOHC V-8 (310-330hp)
    9. Cumming Diesel in the Dodge RAM heavy duty.
    10. Toyota 1.5 liter 4 (Prius)

    I rest my case.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Oh, well ward's is the absolute law, so they must be right. Whatever. Whats so great about the "Hemi"? Its not even a real Hemi. Its just a stupid marketing term to intice good 'ole boys to remember the Cudas they couldnt afford to buy, and its even cheaper to produce than the ancient OHV pushrod. Nissans 5.6 is a superior engine. There's a reason that the Toyota Supra is the most highly in demand car they've ever done. What other car do you know from '97 that cost $40,000 is now worth $40,000? Its because the Supra IL6 is nearly invincible. It can reach past 700hp even without N2O. Toyota's engines tend not to raise eyebrows because they generally are not a performance oriented company, but from an engineering stand point, they are some of the worlds best, certainly a hell of a lot better than anything Chrysler or GM have.

    Oh, and check that list in three years when the GS350GT is pushing 470hp with a hybrid 4.0L.
  • andrewtran71andrewtran71 Posts: 840
    How do you judge engine?
    By how much HP they claim vs engine size?
    By how much Torque they claim vs engine size?
    How fast they go from 0-60 vs engine size?
    Fuel efficiency?
    Loudness of the engine?
    Or by how statistically reliable they are?

    If reliable is the key, than Lexus has to be number one.
    According JD Powers, the LS430 is the most reliable car in the world. However, I don't think they looked at luxury vehicles that cost $300K.

    So how can people claim that one engine is better than another when it is not as reliable?
  • cericceric Posts: 1,092
    lexusguy, well, I said I rest my case. Supra retains its value because it is dead in USA.

    Andrewtran, you brought too many factors into the discussion. Lexus reliability does not equal engine reliability.

    It is funny that I feels like I am a troll on a Lexus board.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    So by your reasoning, a Nissan 240SX should be worth a lot right? Its dead here isnt it? Arent most cars? Why is a '94 Thunderbird worth squat? Or a Lincoln Mark VIII? Those cars are dead also. Its the engine dude. That engine, along with the TT 6 in the Skyline R-34, are the most tuneable engines in the world. Period. Since when does reliability not equal engine reliability? What do you think they were measuring? Whether or not the stereo and seat actuators still worked after ten years? What other company can you tell me has engines that last past 500,000 miles. Name one.
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    First, today 97 Supra cost only 20K, not 40K. Toyota does have nice engines, but most of them are underpowered. IS has the same engine Supra had in 97, with similar output, as you mentioned before, it's nice to play with, but we are talking about stock cars. I would consider IS, but not with 220HP.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    A '97 Supra twin turbo with reasonable mileage goes for between $30-40K. Yes the IL6 is long in the tooth, which is why its being replaced this year. However, for the price difference between an IS300 and a well optioned 330i, you could put in a Stage 2 turbo kit that would be pushing 400hp at the wheels, and would destroy a 330i.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "What other company can you tell me has engines that last past 500,000 miles. Name one."

    Any Mercedes-Benz Diesel I6. They go this distance quite often, as do some recent Mercedes-Benz gasoline V8s. One Million miles on a Mercedes-Benz diesel engine is not unheard of.


    Guys there are a lot of things that determine a superior engine and it all depends on who you're talking to. Some people look at hp/per liter. Other look at overall output. Some people look for the smoothness. How well does the engine rev? It goes on and on.

    There are certain companies that stand out for their engine building prowess depending on what type of engine is being built.

    Lexus (4.3L V8), BMW (4.4L V8) are great engines for their luxury and sportier luxury GT cars. All of these engines are regularly praised and the BMW V8 is considered the best luxury car V8 going in most circles, but they are could be considered gutless compared to say Mercedes' 5.4L SC V8 or Ferrari/Maserati's 3.6L V8. It all depends on what you're looking for. Let us not forget the just retired M5's 4.9L V8. A sheer engineering masterpiece.

    In the realm of six-cylinders, Honda and BMW are usually seen as leaders. The V6 is Honda's forte and the I6 is BMW's. The 3.2L I6 in the M3 is close to being qualified to be a racing car engine. Honda's NSX, TL V6s (separate designs) are almost just as good in different configurations, impressive considering the V6 in the NSX is something like 15 years old! The new RL's V6 should be a real gem. Mercedes-Benz even has a new 3.5L 268hp V6 that brings a few new tricks to the table. Arguably the Nissan VQ V6 is just as good as the BMW and Honda 6s, but isn't as smooth or refined, but in a car like the G35 Coupe or 350Z this sort of "character" is part of the appeal.

    Other than Toyota's V8 in the Lexus, they really aren't known for their engine prowess like BMW or Honda are. This doesn't mean they don't build a good engine, but that isn't where they shine as brightly. BTW, and I6 is used in semis and all type of heavy duty applications, the Supra's I6 isn't the only I6 that can be modified to produce more power. An I6 is inherently strong in its basic construction. The Supra is the only sports car of that time that had an I6 and yes the tuning possibilities are endless, but not unique to the Supra by any means.

    There are some upcoming engines that should really be front-page news. The new V10 in the 2006 M5 is going to be monster. This engine, according to everything so far, is based right off the William-BMW F1 car engine design. You can't ask for more than that. I know this group doesn't think much of pushrod V8s, but the 2006 Corvette Z06 is going to have a truly state-of-the-are pushrod V8 and except for its ohv layout it at least promises to be just as sophisticated as any engine mentioned here. Mercedes has some new direct-injection DOHC V8s in the works for 2006 and in AMG trim they are supposed to develop more power than today's supercharged engines, without supercharging or turbocharging. These hybrid engines from Toyota should be interesting too, if they make the power some people have mentioned here.

    BMW is working on a cam-less V8 for introduction later in the decade! Saab had an idea (that was shut down by GM) for a variable compression engine. Honda also has something in development along these lines.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "truly state-of-the-art pushrod V8 and except for its ohv layout it at least promises to be just as sophisticated as any engine mentioned here."

    Hardly. Boring the 5.7 out to 6.0L doesnt make it the most amazing engine ever, and the concept of a "state of the art pushrod" is laughable. If it was, Cadillac wouldnt be using DOHC Northstars. I know what that engine is like, its gruff, unrefined, and likes to dance between 1200 and 1700rpm while idling. Hardly any kind of model for refinement. The 4.3 in my LS stays around 800 at idle, and makes not a sound.

    We dont get M-B diesel I6s here in the states. The V8 in my S420 pretty much fell apart at 160K, where as my LS400 was humming along just fine with 165K, when I traded it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Not true, the E320 CDI (DOHC I6) is on sale now. The previous generation E-Class also had a I6 back in 1999 as did several versions of the previous S-Class.

    I was expecting that about the pushrod V8 from Chevy, but they are planning more than just increasing the displacement. They're going to apply all the tricks from these DOHC V8s. Not easy to do. Trust me I'm not saying that this V8 is going to re-write the rules or anything and it isn't playing in the luxury car field. Sports car engines are supposed to be more gruff.

    You do realize that Toyota has new pushrod V8 for several racing applications right?

    Lets not be so hasty to disreguard.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yes, I'm aware, but their building that pushrod because the rules say they have to, not necessarily because they want to. I wasnt aware that they brought back a diesel E, they certainly arent making any efforts to promote it. Also, I doubt actual sales will be more than a few thousand cars a year. Americans and diesels generally dont mix.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well they are indeed just testing the waters. 3k E320 CDIs this year and right now diesel fuel is kinda dirty to put it plainly so there won't be much incentive until 2006 when diesel has to be clean per law.

  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    i am not going to weigh in on this b/c my knowledge pales to merc or lexusguy, but one thing that impresses me about toyota is just how many good engines they make.

    whereas honda makes just I4s and v6s and BMW makes just I6s and one v8, toyota has v8s, I6, v6, v4, i4.

    it's pretty tough to be good at all of those engines types when your competitors are specialzing in and getting real good at just a few types of engines.

    i don't know if any toyota engine can be called best in class (although the 4.3 v8 in the GS and LS430 is real nice, very close to BMW's 4.5 v8), but they're up there and there's not a lemon in the bunch.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Honda develops a variety of IC engines, from single cylinder OHV, to V-Twin, I-3, I-4, V5, V6, Flat-6 etc. And in variety of layouts (OHV, SOHC 2V, SOHC 4V, DOHC 4V), normally aspirated and turbo charged. And most recently, has delivered one of the finest diesel engines in the European market.

    Now to keep this discussion on topic, RL is (probably) going to have one of the best, most compact and lightest V6 engine for the power it will develop.
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 593
    if MB could sell literally 4 square boxes through the entire 80s and early 90s, then any car made today is beautiful. I personally didn't find the RL tickle me like the E does (today's E), but considering everything, its definitely one of the top possibilities when I replace my S-type next year.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Toyota's mission isnt really to outpower Honda or BMW. For the most part, their goal is to make extremely clean, extraordinarily well built engines, thats given them the reputation of the worlds most reliable car company. That said, their ULEV 4.3L V8 is probably the stand out engine. I've driven LOTS of cars, and its one of the silkiest, smoothest V8s out there. Its not brash like the Chevy 5.7, and it doesnt have freight train levels of torque like the AMG 5.5L, or the magic of a Ferrari built V8. Just quiet, smooth, effortless power.

    Keep in mind, Honda doesnt just make cars. They also make motorcycle engines, jetski engines, ATV engines, etc. Honda is VERY good at what they do.
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 593
    so in another 15-20 years, when both lexus and acura have aquired a 40-50 year history, and hopefully, if they still stay at the game of innovation and rock solid quality, wonder what will happen to MB & the likes...
  • svevarsvevar Posts: 160
    Well, in 15-20 years, the Germans will have more than 100 years of history (MB already does), and the Japanese brands will still be "young" in comparison!

    Actually, I think it will be interesting to see when, if ever, Lexus and Infiniti (possibly Acura) will be viewed in the same light as the three German luxury brands.

     -- Mark
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 593
    but when you think of a 50 year old person and a 100 year old person, its all old. when you talk about a 25 year old person and 75 year old person, the difference is stark.. its relative... and being around long enough, the ratio diminishes... sorry did not mean to insult any older people on the forum, i'm just using subjective numerics... and i'm glad people get older, makes them more sane.

    personally, i've never been able to develop a taste for nissan's or infiniti's so i'll act like they don't exist ;) just kidding

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I've got a surprise for you. Lexus, in 15 years of selling cars, is considered by most of the mainstream as up there with M-B and BMW. M-B made the mistake in the 90s when Lexus was brand new of thinking they were invincible, and that nobody would buy an L badge instead of the 3-pointed star. Wrong. Ever since the RX300, Lexus has beaten M-B on sales.
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