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Comments
ksso
SBurke7
We're starting to see a good deal more information about the other 2005 models, so I expect the RL ads will begin soon. They'll want the publicity to peak when the car hits the market. I'm kinda surprised that we haven't seen TV spots or magazine ads, yet.
I just got back from a looong vacation in Europe and looked around over there to see what was happening in the automotive realm. I guess I can summurize very effectively what I found out about Honda because we already know. Basically in Europe Honda is offering some models that are not available in the US such as the Accord Station wagon and the Diesel powertrain. Oddly the press considered the release of the 'Legend" as a re-styling rather than a new model (according to their classification I would have guessed a new model to be more fitting!!).
Bottom line the only thing that got my attention was the new Euro4 spec for the commonrail diesel engines and the number of vehicles in ciruclation that are powered by them. I guess 50% or more of the cars are diesel now and surprisingly suhc a high number is not accopmanied by the usual drawbacks associated to the old diesel engines. I could not detect heavy smoke/smell and noises were very contained. I had a couple of rides on the top 'Lancia' model (the Thesis) and felt very snooth and ready to go.
Going back to the specific of the 2005 RL I qoul also like to see some more activity on Honda part in releasing some details since the suppposed release is only 6 weeks away!
We'll see.
I agree Steve. Notably, by contrast, Infiniti has already sent me a very nice "teaser" brochure on the new 2006 M. I received it last week after having signed up on their website. It was very nicely done and quite inviting and welcoming. That approach seems in keeping with how Infiniti announced the coming of the then new G35 sedan.
We can all speculate as to why Acura does not do the same -- maybe they "don't have to", etc. But for me, I liked and appreciated the preview-like brochure for the new M. It was very engaging and added to the anticipation of a car that presumably will not be out on the streets until Spring 2005. It also achieved another purpose -- holding off my 2005 RL purchase while reinforcing my thinking about waiting until Spring to see their new model so I can compare the cars in person.
P.S. Thank God the tires are 18" Michillin, not the crappy Bridgestone!
good good
shotgun, you're not "in trouble," man!
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1000 cars/month out of over a million sold in a year is about 0.1% of the total market. Instead, Acura decided to give the RL V8 like power. While the V6 won’t match up against the 4.2+ liter V8 engines in low-end power, it won’t match them in price tag either.
If Honda can refine IMA (hybrid power) to an extent that it can be implemented in the RL, the need for V8 could evaporate. Perhaps the Accord Hybrid will provide us with a glimpse of the same.
The spy shots on the site are old, but thanks anyway.
I heard the rumors that Honda is testing (not thinking) their V8. Can you imagine if they put two S2200's engines together?! 240x2 = 440hp! Obviously that is too optimistic. However, if they can get anywhere near 400hp, it would be a great 4.4L V8.
That's a good one, LoL. I found I made a typo in 440hp. It should have been 240x2=480hp. And, I do believe Honda executives would eventually yield to the pressure from dealers. MDXs and RLs could well justify the development of a V8 engine. Not to mention if Honda/Acura would like to develop an even larger SUV model.
For a 3.5L V6 to develop 400hp, it must be redlined at around 8400rpm (by projection from TL's 3.2L), and that is assuming perfectly flat torque curve. Not impossible but unlikely considering the cost-effectiveness. New BMW M5's 5.0L V10 develops 507hp with redline at 8200rpm after lots of tuning.
Also '05 Odyssey if interested.
What I didn't expect was Acura's aggressive gearing!
I'm a bit disappointed at the shape of the torque curve from BMW 5.0/V10. Since the displacement is large and BMW gears its cars short, it wouldn't be an issue, but I wonder what a BMW 2.0/I-4 screamer would be like compared to Honda's. Some predictions in the past were about BMW developing a 210-220 HP 2.0, for the 1-series. May be we will see one soon.
- 39.7ft turning circle (new '05 Odyssey gets 36.7ft!!!)
- 58/42% weight distribution
- 3950lb in weight
The final drive gearing, at 4.6:1 is aggressive, but with the very wide range of ratios in the trans., and a deep overdrive of .481:1 (overall = 2.2:1) in top gear ought to provide relaxed highway cruising at reasonable rpm.
And the 26 mpg EPA highway estimate (based on internal testing = hope this holds up) with a 19.4 gal tank would provide a comfortable (theoretical) cruising range of over 450 miles, with some reserve. This I find impressive.
The turning circle is a bit wider than ideal – but this often seems to be an issue with driven front wheels and relatively wide tires (245 / 50 x 17s – are the optional 18s wider still??) and may be a function of clearance and / or some sort of potential ‘binding’ in the drivetrain at extreme wheel angles.
I am still uncertain about the exterior styling.
- Ray
Looking forward to seeing one in person . . .
1: 15.359
2: 8.958
3: 6.099
4: 3.952
5: 2.739
That, in fact is a short fifth! But most interesting thing about the gearing is how short it starts out with. 15.359:1 is very short for an automatic. The shortest I have seen from Honda/Acura is in the RSX with 12.25:1. Accord, TSX, TL, MDX, Odyssey etc. have the same ranging from 11.35:1 to 11.55:1.
But, Honda also managed to spread the gear ratios wider (the fifth gear is 5.6 times taller than the first gear which is well past a typical automatic/manual transmission). Still, the fifth gear ODR is quite short (2.739:1 compared to about 2.13:1 in TL). Thats going to make it a very responsive car.
With this gearing, and output, I'm actually surprised Honda managed to get 18/26 mpg. This may be based off internal testing, but this is likely going to match EPA estimates.
As far as turning diameter is concerned, not just tire width, but also the steering setup can play a role. Honda may be aggressive with that as well (but not as much in Odyssey). Not sure how much difference MacPherson struts (in Odyssey) would make compared to double wishbones (in RL) in this regard.
For Accord EX-V6
Weight: 3384 lbs
Engine output:
240hps@6250 rpm, 14.1 lbs/hp
212ft-lb@5000 rpm, 15.96 lbs/ft-lb
For RL
Weight: 3984 lbs
Engine output:
300hps@6200 rpm, 13.28 lbs/hp
260ft-lb@5000 rpm, 15.32 lbs/ft-lb
I assume new RL would have much better engine output than Accord V6.
Could someone tell me why RL is much better car than Accord V6 specifically on the performance department? Or is it?
Any input is welcome.
Thank you very much
Could you elaborate more the gear ratio in terms of how does the gear ratio affect the performace of the car?
Thank you very much
As far as weight is concerned, additional features, larger size (RL is larger than Accord, inside and out), chassis reinforcements (for reduced NVH, greater rigidity, to handle more power etc) quickly add to the heft. Besides, there is about 220 lb. from the incorporation of the AWD system. If you remove 220 lb. (AWD) from the weight, the new RL would end up being lighter than the outgoing RL. I was expecting the RL to weigh around 3850 lb., so it did end up on the heavier side.
Weight to power ratio is a good indicator of performance, especially for a typical 0-60 or quarter mile run. In that regard, RL and TL should be very similar and better than Accord. So, for RL, the run could be in low 6 seconds, but I think 6.5s (0-60) is a safe bet, about the same for TL.
Weight to torque ratio doesn’t work the same way though. Gearing affects the picture (I will address that later). But, besides accelerative performance, RL gains from a performance oriented AWD system which doubles as an all-weather feature as well.
I will address your question on gear ratios and gearing in another post.
ksso
Engine speed (rpm) and wheel speed (mph) are directly related. So, when an engine is revving at 2000 rpm, that rate translates to some “rpm” at the wheels. The translation depends on the overall gearing from the spinning crankshaft to the wheels. This also means that if there is a “translation” that allows you to get to 60 mph when engine is revving at 2000 rpm, it is also possible to get to only 10 mph when the engine speed is same (2000 rpm). The difference would be in the “translation” (or the gearing).
We need gearing to not only translate the engine speed to certain wheel speed, but since that translation also affects the thrust that is generated (what you feel as you take off), we end up having a compromise: More thrust or more speed. You get one or the other.
So, we start with gear 1. It provides the “shortest gearing” which translates to more thrust but less speed (for the same engine speed). But before I elaborate on this, let us look at the basics that affect gearing using spec sheet from the new RL.
The five (forward) gear ratios are:
1: 2.697:1
2: 1.573:1
3: 1.071:1
4: 0.694:1
5: 0.481:1
Axle Ratio: 4.600:1
Normally, cars have only one axle ratio. With S2000, and with this new RL, Honda has opted to use a secondary axle ratio: 1.238:1.
The primary and secondary axle ratio combine to give a net effect of 4.600*1.238 = 5.695:1 axle ratio.
BTW, when you see a mention of “close ratio” gearing, it indicates that the “spacing” between consecutive gears is small. Rather, they are close. You can derive it in percentages. In case of RL, if you calculate percentage of second gear ratio as it relates to first 1.573 * 100/2.697 = 58%.
So, second gear is 58% of the first gear. The same between second and third is 68%. So, second and third are closer to each other than are first and second gear. If you looked at S2000’s gearing (with the 2.0 engine), the numbers got closer with each gear: 65% (1-2), 72.5% (2-3), 80% (3-4), 85% (4-5) and 85% (5-6). This is just to give you an idea what close ratio means.
Another aspect that affects overall gearing is the wheel size. Smaller diameter wheels work as shorter gears and larger wheels work as larger gears. In case of RL, the wheel size is: P245/50/R17 (“245” is width of the tires, “50” is the aspect ratio and “17” is the rim size).
If you want to know how wheel diameter can be calculated (in inch), here we go (the “other” numbers in the formula are for conversion from millimeter to inch):
Diameter = 17+ (245 * 2) * 50/(25.4 * 100) = 26.65 inch
Going back to the gear ratios, they, by themselves, don’t mean much. We combine (multiply) each of those gear ratios with the axle ratio (5.695:1 in this case) to derive “overall drive ratios” (let us call it “ODR”). So, the ODR for each of the five forward gears (gear ratio multiplied by axle ratio):
1: 15.359
2: 8.958
3: 6.099
4: 3.952
5: 2.739
Now, to determine how gearing (from now on, we will use ODR, along with wheel diameter) affects performance, let us throw in redline: 6800 rpm. Here is a simplified formula to calculate the Wheel Speed in each gear (at the specified engine speed).
Wheel Speed (mph) = [Engine speed (rpm) * Wheel Diameter (inch)]/(336 * ODR)
So, to determine wheel speed that RL can achieve in “first gear” at its “redline”, we plug in the numbers
Wheel Speed = 6800 * 26.65 / (336 * 15.359) = 35 mph
So, RL will top out at 35 mph if you stay in the first gear through the red line. To go any faster, you would have to go to the second or higher gear. You could use the same formula for any other gear. Alternatively, since we already know the second gear is 58% of the first, it also means that top speed in first gear is 58% of the top speed in the second gear. So, the top speed in second gear will be 35/0.58 = 61 mph. And so on.
BTW, if the transmission shifts from first to second at redline, the engine speed will drop to 58% of the redline (closer the ratio, the less the drop will be). This means, in first gear you will hit 35 mph at 6800 rpm, and as the second gear is selected, the revs will drop to about 3900 rpm (which will correspond to 35 mph in second gear) and you continue to accelerate from there to a top speed of 61 mph in second gear and so on.
So far we have seen how gearing can be used and related to wheel speed. Next, we will relate it to thrust (another part of the equation).
Here is another formula that I love having fun with, calculation of thrust. Most people assume that torque is directly responsible for thrust, well it is, but not without giving consideration to gearing. Here we go:
Thrust (g’s) = (0.85* Torque (lb.-ft) * ODR * 24) / [Total Weight of vehicle (lb) * Wheel Diameter (inch)]
“0.85” is used to factor in the drive train loss since we usually assume drive train loss to be about 15%. “24” is just a conversion factor for the inch to feet conversion and use of diameter instead of radius.
At peak torque, in first gear and with 175 lb. driver, the total weight of RL would be 4159 lb. Plugging in the numbers,
Thrust = 0.85 * 260 * 15.359 * 24 / (4159 * 26.65) = 0.73g.
That, actually is very impressive from a V6 powering a luxury sedan. By comparison, the same calculation for TL and Accord (both automatic) yield about 0.60g (a little less for Accord, a little more for TL). So, off the line, RL will feel much stronger despite of having more weight and a relatively moderate increase in torque. This is another place where gearing (rather, overall gearing) shows up.
Just like that, you can compare thrust at any point (rpm) that you know the torque output for, and in any gear. In second gear, the max thrust will drop to 0.43g. And now the compromise between thrust and wheel speed is more obvious.
Finally, the overall gearing also determines the cruising engine speed. In case of RL, an interesting point comes up due to its very short first gear (ODR) compared to TL and relatively short fifth gear (ODR). Using our speed calculation formula from previous post, we can actually find out the engine speed at which RL will cruise (at 60 mph or whatever). Shuffling the variables to calculate for engine speed:
Engine speed (rpm) =[Wheel Speed (mph) * 336 * ODR]/Wheel Diameter (inch)
Calculating for 60 mph in fifth gear:
Engine Speed = 60 * 336 * 2.739 / 26.65 = 2072 rpm.
That’s actually higher than the engine speed at which Accord V6 and TL (with automatic transmission) cruise. This would also be a good reason why estimated fuel economy for RL is 26 mpg (compared to 28-30 mpg in the Accord or TL). But, I also think that Acura has planned to incorporate VCM into RL in the future given their gear selection (shorter fifth, like they have done in Odyssey with VCM compared to Odyssey without).
A typical Honda engine is tuned to deliver at least 90% of its peak torque from 2500 rpm, and attains 95% of its peak torque by 3000 rpm.
The 3.5/V6 in MDX was originally designed to deliver at least 95% of its peak torque (back then, 245 lb.-ft @ 3000 to 5000 rpm) between 2000 and 5500 rpm. With minor tweaks applied, this engine now produces 253 lb.-ft at peak (3500 rpm to 5000 rpm), and is shows producing 90% or more from just 1500 rpm. This means that MDX gets about 227 lb.-ft at just 1500 rpm.
The 3.5/V6 in RL is derived from it. So, it may have very similar torque curve at the low end, but since the peak is higher, 90% of MDX torque output isn’t 90% of RL torque output. But, if I were to guess, I would say, the RL engine is producing at least 90% of its peak torque (or at least 235 lb.-ft) from 2000 to 6500 rpm.
If not at Wieck, I’m sure the torque curve is going to show up at Honda’s JDM website and I will be looking for it. As soon as I see it, you may find it here. Then we can validate the authenticity of my crystal ball. Again!
Otherwise, I like what I'm seeing. I was hoping for an extra 5 lb-ft from the V6, but that's not even worth complaining about. There's a good list of features, and decent interior space (according to the numbers).
I also think it would be rather difficult to trim down much weight off the RL outside of going to major design changes/widespread use of aluminum alloy et al. I'm sure the execs took note of it, but did the best they could. Its amazing how heavy the cars are getting these days. Look at the new Odyssey! It was heavy six years ago at about 4300 lb. Now it is heavier! At least fuel economy is expected to stay the same or improve.
Yeah, cars are getting heavy. I suspect that making them safe in a crash, silent on the road, and filled with goodies is simply one too many goals for a featherweight. But I was hoping that the use of aluminum subframes would have kept the weight under 3,800.
Robertsmx, dude, you rule.
ksso
2) Mileage
3) Turning circle
Accord Hybrid anyone?
I was watching the RL with interest, but now it just dropped off my list for consideration. I don't understand why Honda isn't putting them in... The TL also became a non-starter for the same reason.
New poster - "GnaRLy" - happy owner of a '96 RL and prospective purchaser of an '05.
Sidenote - the interior is stunning. I want this car!
shotgun,
Thats hard to figure out. But I assume it may be around 150 mph. I believe someone tested TL at 152 mph, not sure who. RL may match that.
BTW, while it's interesting to read all the technical prose about the weight, turning-circle, gearing, etc. about the new RL, I'll base my judgment on an extended test drive putting the car through its paces.
I expected a weight increase with the addition of the SH-AWD system, so the "porkiness" of the '05 is a non-factor for mr.