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Comments
As far as why the tendency was that way (despite your idea, which is reasonable, that the big stores should be willing to deal, since they have a large allotment and therefore need to move a lot of units), here's my theory. The big stores of course do have a large allotment, and therefore they're more likely (at any particular moment) to have at least a unit or two for people to come in and look at (if the unit is pre-sold, which I bet is often the case, they won't let you drive it but at least you can sniff it). This is true even though they're also turning over a lot of units.
Since there's a lot of interest at the moment, I think the big stores are drawing a lot of traffic (at least prospects, if not buyers), because at least they have something to show. I bet the small stores, on the other hand, are getting phone calls, but then people go elsewhere when they find out there's no stock to eyeball.
With all the traffic at the big stores, I bet they're not having much trouble moving their allotment at list (or close to it). It's a brilliant product (I think the attention to detail is extremely impressive, and still mostly not understood by the public and even by the reps) at a great price at the right time, so I bet it pretty much sells itself once people see it. The big dealers have their hands full handling all this business, and they don't feel much incentive to make their allotment even bigger. And it makes no sense for them to offer me a discount when they already have people lined up ready to pay list.
And they're not that interested in custom orders (like in my situation, where I already know exactly what I want and I'm not interested in their opinion on this). Why should they defer their revenue when they have customers who are ready to accept whatever's already in the pipeline? The model lineup and options choices are confusing enough that I bet reps are having a relatively easy time convincing prospects that the model the prospect needs is exactly the model that just rolled off the transporter (or the one that's scheduled to arrive next Tuesday).
I think the small shops are hungrier. To a great extent this is because of how the allocation system works. You sell more and then you get more (kind of like the rich get richer). They hate to lose a deal because this leads to their allocation shrinking even more (and they know it means their competition down the street ends up with an even bigger allocation next month).
This is sort of a vicious cycle. In the end I was wary of going with a shop that was too small (even though they offered what looked like the best deals, and even though I also fundamentally like the idea of dealing with a small shop) because I was afraid they would have trouble getting the exact unit I wanted, on schedule.
Interesting market dynamics.
I ordered the vehicle on May 5th and took delivery of it yesterday. It took about 10 weeks from the time I ordered to delivery which is exactly what I was told.
I purchased an XLE with package #12 and the Z1 accessory package (floor mats, cargo net, first aid kit). MSRP was $32,919. I paid $30,408, which is $2,511 below MSRP. The details are as follows:
Price Paid: 30,408
Sales Tax: 2,509
Registration: 100
Inspection: 10
Doc. Fee: 20
Out the door price was $33,047.
The whole experience with the dealer was very pleasant. There was no haggling over price as this was the initial price they offered. The vehicle arrived when they said it would. There were no surprises at delivery and they were very efficient. I would definitely recommend them, although, I do not know if they are still offering this deal. It is worth a call if you live in or around this area.
I think the big dealers usually discount less than the small dealers. The small dealers seem to hungry for more business and less overhead.
Nyfn1 - I don't know if LE 8-seater has leather. I think it is an option on XLE and standard on XLE Limited. Is it a dealer installed leather?
By the way, I am thinking to add a sunroof on LE 7-seater or 8-seater. I understand that I can't get sunroof from the factory. But my dealer told me they can install the sunroof at in port site for about $1300 to $1500. He told everything will met the standard (no leaking) and as same as the factory installed one. Is it something that I should I consider? Any comments?
lok888, a sunroof is something I wouldn't want anyone to add for me. Just my opinion.
Steve, Host
I agree with what you are saying, but I was specifically referring to '04 Siennas. I doubt the economy changed that much in the last 2 weeks.
This thing that the small dealer told you, that is very surprising to me. I've read time and time again, and heard from many dealers, that they have 100% flexibility within trim levels for options packages and colors on their allocation. So the small dealer is telling you his allocations are 100% accounted for for the many months that he quoted you-- meaning he's had to order many Siennas speculatively without firm orders in hand cause he wants to force you in a certain color? Boy does that seem doubtful in this Sienna environment, but maybe folks don't even think about approaching small dealers.
So I think the car glut is having an impact on sales and I think it's a bit harder for Toyota (or any) dealer to stick to their MSRP guns at the moment, much less ADM.
But I'm just reading here, and not actively shopping....
Steve, Host
And in the case of that $2500 discount (if you're talking about daveb13), that deal was made on 5/5. If anything, I think maybe deals were a little better (for the buyer) back then. I think maybe dealers hadn't yet caught on to what a hot item they had on their hands. Having read various boards carefully, I have a feeling that some of the most impressive deals are the ones that were signed in April and May.
I think Sienna sales are a bright spot (from the seller perspective) in an otherwise soft auto market.
One dealer even made a comment to me implying that he expected some kind of upward price adjustment, on Toyota's part. The implication was that sales are higher than forecast, and perhaps the manufacturer is realizing they set their prices a bit too low. (I personally think that would be be a correct analysis on their part; when I compare to the competition, I think the Sienna price is strikingly low, taking into account the many positive attributes of the product.)
Who knows how factual this comment was, or if it was something put out to try to get me to sign on the dotted line. Take it with a grain of salt.
But I don't see a sudden drop in prices in the last few weeks.
In 6-12 months, as the new Odyssey approaches, maybe that will change things. I don't think the Quest is much of a threat.
But given that I wanted certain equipment/colors (and the odds of finding that combination sitting in someone's inventory was about nil), that means that I had no choice but to trust someone to say that they could obtain the vehicle for me (therefore I'm not sure what your point is). We'll see if they deliver as promised. I think they will.
My prediction is partly based on this observation: as I read the boards, I see comparatively few stories of late deliveries. I'm sorry that your situation is one of those. I hope you get your van soon.
As far as your comment about what the small dealers told me, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Or you might be making certain unwarranted assumptions, as far as what I was trying to convey about my experience. The gist of what I was trying to say about small dealers, was that they often seemed to be telling me that I would have to wait 3-4 months. I was glad to be able to find a somewhat larger dealer who quoted 6-8 weeks (but who also offered a nice discount, unlike some of the other larger dealers).
BTW, I do agree with your apt comparison (posted elsewhere) of the Quest vs the AMC Pacer.
Steve, I agree with your comparison of now, versus the Ody situation in '99. I think the main difference is, that was when the economy was still going gangbusters. Different times now.
I'm not so well acquainted with the new Sienna, but I think the MSRP bang for buck may be there too. When prices were announced, I didn't think it was strikingly low, although I personally think all base minivans should cost no more than $22,000 US <g>.
Compared to most SUVs, now, the bang for buck is definitely there! imho, of course. But new SUVs seem to drive more people to the showrooms than new minivans.
Please keep the prices paid coming in (and if you are a recent buyer, please unlurk and weigh in).
Steve, Host
mackabee "Any Questions for a Car Dealer?" Jul 16, 2003 11:33pm
Steve, Host
(Hi Mackabee - am I out to lunch?)
They'll be another van and another deal next week, and the week after, so don't feel bad about walking away.
But you may want to wait and take the new one out for a nice long test drive before cancelling your order.
Steve, Host
: )
Mackabee
Curious if anyone has more exact production info on Ody and Sienna than I do, those numbers are based on something I read a long time ago, but the point stands that there is much better supply of good foreign minivans today than 4-5 years ago.
Things to ask include - is it a Toyota extended warranty or an aftermarket one. What things does it cover? Can I buy it in 3 years instead of today? Can I cancel it in 3 years and get some of my money back? Is it transferable if I sell the van? Check over in Smart Shopper for other warranty discussions too.
And it's not really 7/100 since the factory warranty will cover you for the 3/36 initial period (not to mention the 5/60 powertrain warranty).
Steve, Host
I recently checked back with him (7/15) and he tells me that is still allocated to his delaership the way I specified, but there was no certainty in delivery now. Not sure what that means execpt that maybe Toyota is pulling rank on the order allocations. He tells me to keep checking back.
In addition he says that Toyota is not taking orders on Siennas - probably to pump products onto dealer lots. Not sure if it is really a Toyota thing or a dealer thing.
What do people think of this deal?
ballistic "2004 Subaru XT Turbo Forester" Jul 17, 2003 5:36pm
I tend to think of them as an additional profit center for the dealer, but your price does make me go hmmmm.
Steve, Host
I found a deal($850 over invoice) @ Bennett in Allentown.
E-mail me and I will send you my sales person's name.
But, here is the deal- You are going to need to wait a bit longer -month or two- to get the car. They have people from all over ordering with them because you can save over $2K. But, if you can wait, it is worth the drive 45 min drive to Allentown
Remember, profit is everywhere in the business, how much is always flex.
Do you mind tell us which specific car dealer in Dallas ? Is it toyota of dallas ?
I live in Dallas and been trying to get one LE model (silver color preferably) and decent deal, but have been no luck for the past two months...
After several months debating on what car to get for my growing family, my wife and I decided to get the Sienna XLE with package #14 (along with cargo net, the complete shield package, custom stripes, running boards, floor mats with door sill protectors, and door edge guards). I really wanted a Suburban (yes, it's a gut thing), but a test drive quickly convinced me the Sienna was the car for us (we already own a Toyota Camry and we love Toyota's reliability). I was really concerned with what I've been hearing about prices throughout the US; nonetheless, my wife and I proceeded to contact dealers in TX via the internet (which enables anyone to expand their search). I was surprised on how easy it was to negotiate with internet salesman. I'm told their commissions are based upon vehicles sold as opposed to the price of the vehicle. I'm not sure if this is true, but here is the deal I got:
According to Edmunds, the Sienna I am getting has a MSRP of approx $35000. I was able to negotiate a price for the Sienna for $31200 (from two different dealerships). Both dealers told me this is $100 over invoice. One dealer is in Beaumont, TX and the other is in Houston. All told my drive out price is approx $33500 (which includes TTL, and all applicable fees).
I never thought I'd get this car for this price; however, persistance in contacting various dealers through the internet was the key because you can make them negotiate against each other without having to leave your own home. I should say we searched many different dealerships in TX. The Austin dealerships didn't negotiate much. The Dallas dealerships rarely responded to e-mails. When they did, their prices were high. After constant e-mails to countless dealerships, I finally got to this price with two different dealerships. If anyone wants the names of the dealerships, and the names of the salesman, e-mail me and I'll be glad to respond.
This search took about 4 weeks. By being persistent, I was able to negotiate what I belive is a great deal. At least that's what I think, and that's all that truly matters because I feel I got the better of them as opposed to the other way around.
I'm new here and I'm not sure if this question is appropriate to this group or not but I hope it is. I'm looking at the invoice price of the 2004 XLE w/no options. Edmunds shows it as $25,150. Same with KBB. But carsdirect shows it at $25,661!! I'm in San Jose, CA but I checked other cities/states and found that Edmunds invoice price did not vary. Carsdirect did vary and was always higher. Any ideas? I was thinking that there might have been a price increase recently or maybe some regional differences. I just want to be sure that what I think is "invoice" is really the true invoice price. And which one should I use???
By the way, I've got a quote of $30,019 (including destination charge of $510) for XLE FWD with FR (package #12), CF (floor mats), and GN (cargo net). I believe the invoice cost for all this is $28,961 according to Edmunds so the price is $1058 over invoice. Any comments?
There's probably some fine print somewhere that explains the discrepancy in invoice pricing (that destination fee is suspiciously close to the difference, for example, or it could be an ad fee or something else). But it's not as important that it match our numbers, so long as the final number matches yours.
Oh yeah, use the lowest invoice number you can find :-)
Steve, Host
Thanks in advance for any input!
P.S. I would be willing to go anywhere in California to make the best deal - so don't feel like you have to limit your responses to dealers in the SF Bay Area. I will travel to San Diego or points north or east if the price is right. Thanks!
Thanks aton in advance
Thanks