That moveable console in the Caravan is pretty slick. We didn't have a console when we owned a minivan and that access to the back was quite handy when the kids were smaller. It's funny but I guess that you just get used to whatever you have - even with the ample utility that I concede that minivans have, I simply don't miss having one. Not one iota. Maybe I'll feel that way about large sedans in a few years...
Hey guys! almost 3000 posts and we got our first honest to goodness TH troll! Like those small barking dogs, they tend to go away if you ignore them. And just like those dogs, you can have some fun keeping them around too! Still, this troll doesn't seem to be offering anything clever, so I'd suggest we ignore it. Of course, it does drive a Lamborghini (!!!) so it's probably not used to being ignored. I'm guessing a Countach - that's the Lambo model I see parked in most trailer parks up this way. Alright, so underneath, they're usually Civics and Integras but properly adorned with "type R" stickers, melon-launcher exhaust, VTec badging and bookshelf-sized rear spoilers, I can see why their owners can get so confused. Nevertheless, it still doesn't mean that there'll be any amusement for us to keep this particular Lamborghini owner around. Maybe we should wait - I sense the impending arrival of an owner of a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost with a keen interest to keep the world free from Pontiacs. Yeah, that'd be the one to wait for.
Thank God I'm an American and free to choose what I want to drive. I also would never knock any one for their choice of vehicle. I guess it all revolves around personal style and displaying a sense of class.
Don't take the troll seriously. This is a BB troll - they make lots of noise in the hopes of eliciting a response. Think small, yapping dog and deal with it accordingly.
The seller must be the same guy posting here (interesting conjugations of the non-verb "to streach").
All the same, I feel for the guy - must be sad having to part with a "Lamborghini". Not to worry, I'm sure he already has his eyes on this Lambo. At least on this one, those VTEC stickers make sense.
Too "realistic" for my blood but I say GO FOR IT Ken - just don't forget the "VTec" stickers!
I think I'll repaint mine brown. Gonna have to fix the lettering on the trunklid too - Pontiac mispelled mine as Bonneville with an 'o'.
In all seriousness for our opinion-rich poster - if I had the money to buy a new Lambo rather than a used Bonneville - which happens to be one of the best buys for the money according to many sources - I'd buy a Bentley Arnage Red Label. Now that's an amazing CAR!!!!
Unless you insist on buying new to avoid "someone else's problems" or care to buy and keep for years and years you nearly always win on the depreciation game by buying a car that is one (like mine) to 3 years old and keeping it for the best years of its life - then selling or trading before major repairs begin.
Now if you're buying either Lambos or Bentleys (or any other exhorbitantly priced automobile) you're going to throw away on an annual basis more in depreciation expense than the entire purchase price of a new Bonneville SSEi - or even 2 or 3 of them!
Good idea Ken - that'll give you licence to go groups of owners of other cars and diss their rides. You'd obviously be in fine company with some articulate and thought-provoking exoticar owners. I'd make that run to Costco though - they have the best deal going on Grey Poupon.
BTW, Edmunds prefers that some words be avoided. Dung references tend to get scribbled.
The person who suggested ignoring the troll hit the nail on the head. Um, except seems like you folks forgot to do that?
I've removed some posts, left some others that might should have been removed, and will continue to remove any more posts by the many-times-previously-banned troll.
PLEASE do not respond to him. You really make my job much harder. It's a very time consuming process to delete posts. I sure would appreciate the assist!
Geez, I leave for a couple of weeks and wind up missing all of the excitement with the "troll". One of the reasons we bought another van was the hauling utility of it. Granted, the Caravan doesn't have the disappearing rear seat ala the Odyssey but in about 5 minutes, I can take out all of the seats. In the van for this trip were a stove, washing machine, king size day bed and many, many boxes of "stuff" forcing me to use the side view mirrors the entire trip out there since I couldn't use the rear view mirror. The Bonneville is MY car and so I actually don't normally drive the van. It was with a great deal of trepidation that I did a walkaround of the Bonneville when I got home but to my great relief, she didn't put any door dings or anything else on it while I was gone. I was impressed with Bill's picture of his rides but what I really would have like to have seen was his sailboat, either hogging a space in the garage if it would fit or otherwise prominently displayed in the picture.
Sorry about that - didn't mean to make your job more difficult. I...um...actually did resist responding directly to the troll. I guess I just couldn't resist having a bit of fun - we're not used to trolls here you know.
I'll try to do better next time.
Mark: I don't know if you've checked out the Venture - but it has some interesting functionality with the fold down seat and storage cubbies in the aft. I'm not suggesting that it's superior to the Odyssey (it's not) but I was suitably impressed when a friend showed me his new '02 Venture a few weeks ago.
I'd say about the only ways that GM has fallen short with their recent minivan incarnations is on the crash test ratings (fixable) and the engine choices ...er...choice (perhaps not as easily fixable).
I kinda figured though that this was a guy I had sparred with a while back in another forum and he turned out to be halfway decent after getting knocked down a few pegs.
anybody who rolls into an owners' forum and ridicules their ride is not 1/2way decent Ken - he deserved what you gave him - and you were gentle. OTOH, he might have just been trying to wake us up here - who knows? >;-)
One major daily newspaper is looking for folks who drive 2002 or 2003 yellow or orange cars, and another major daily newspaper is looking for folks who successfully or unsuccessfully attempted to negotiate the purchase prices of their vehicles at the end of their lease terms. If you care to share your stories on either or both of these topics, please send an e-mail containing a short summary of your experience and your contact information to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, May 14.
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I think you have to be a "rap" star or big time musician. Do you have a music video on MTV? Has your house been showcased on MTV Cribs?
I think the Bonnie is a much better choice.
Enjoy the ride.
P.S. My wife got the oil changed today, and she brought me home a 2002 Bonneville brochure from the dealership. I love to read the propaganda, only this time I have one in the garage.
The thing too about these Bentleys is that there are so many 3 - 10 year old cars under 50K miles. At least with the Bonneville you don't have to worry about actually DRIVING them!
I just got back from a drive thru the redwoods... gone for a week and a whole pile of messages on the board... and don't even get to read the jerk's post (thats OK Pat... I get the idea about what it said... and it shoulda' been pulled).
Great trip up the California and Oregon coasts. About 1,200 miles of roads that really would have been great fun in the SSEi (rather than the Avis Century... sigh).
mfahey1... you know how to make a guy smile... but the boat is still out in a barn... barely outta winter in here in Wisconsin.... but here is a pix anyway.
....of racing our Lightning. We're leaving in a couple of weeks to bareboat in Australia(have to have some excuse to get an advance look at the Monaro). I think I'm safe in saying that the 38 footer we're getting won't get up on a plane like yours, no matter the wind.
Sorry, full house. This is a graduation present for my son who is graduating from medical school and we're taking him, his wife and my daughter and possibly a friend of my daughter's compliments of United Airlines frequent flier miles. I wonder what they'll say when I want to go ashore to a GM dealership and check out the Monaro? I think I can guess and it won't be pretty. I think it is called mutiny on the high seas.
I recently read a review that, while light on critical analysis, passed on a few factoid I didn't know: Only 50% of the Bonnie's sales are coming from the SE. The target 3 years ago was 60-70%. Apparently, the rental agency business has all but dried up and most sales are at the retail level - where the SSEi and SLE do better (than with rental agencies).about 25% of SE buyers opt for the bench seat.The Bonnie's G platform is a strong user of hydroformed steel and tailor-welded panel blanks. These are among the main reasons why the platform is so rigid and why the Bonneville exceeds "roof crush" requirements.
That latter stuff interests me. As for the roof crush, the Bonnie uses a hydroformed steel rail which connects the A, B, and C pillars and then anchors into the floor pan. Plus, the Bonnie uses tailor-welded blanks in both the side panels and the floor panel (the G's use of the latter is a domestic first). TWB is a steel technology which essentially puts the thicker panels of steel where it has the biggest impact - achieving safety and rigidity benefits without the weight disadvantage of thicker steel all over.
Thanks for the numbers. I have always felt that the Bonneville sales are impacted by the number of Pontiac dealers who also sell Buicks. Even in the previous generations, I feel those dealers use the LeSabre as the low end equipment/Low end price car. The Bonneville becomes the mid equip/mid price on the lot. The Park Ave finishes out the line up at the top. If 50%+ are SLE/SSEi, I thinks this follows my theory. Just makes our Bonnevilles more special. (92 at 230,000+)
Dan - those are very interesting facts about the build process. Relative to SE rentals - I see plenty of new ones around here so it may be a geographical issue. Mine still rocks!
With such a beautiful (and rare) day here, I manufactured an excuse to run an errand downtown, all magnificent four blocks of it. I turned the corner and there is a black SLE. Three cars down from it was a silver SLE and a few cars down from that was an exact clone of my car, light bronzemist SSEi, all 2000 or newer. I know Midwesterners tend to drive larger cars but to see three of these cars lined up in one block on the same side of the street had me doing double takes.
I had read about the XV8 (but I had heard that it was going to be primarily an SUV powerplant) but not yet seen any pix. Thanks for the link. Interesting that it's still a pushrod huh? I guess that's consistent with torquey SUV applications.
I have a 96 ssei. The past three weeks have been a brain freeze to say the least! I was having rear tire cupping, a shock or strut problem. Took my baby into the dealer, after several tests, they found that the ccr modual(sp?) computer was bad and also the modual(sp?) in the struts were bad. The dealer ordered the parts, a total of $900, cpu and two rear struts. Now the bad news, GM has discontinued the ccr struts for the ssei, a strut that was used from 94 to 99. The replacement strut is from the SE model and is a passive acting unit. Do any of you remember who the builder of the struts were-(koni-kyb?)Oh and by the way I didn't want to trash the toyo 800's so I opted to install the passive struts, the handling is gone, and the ride is shot. please, any advise will be weighted.
Ouch, in fact, major ouch. Hard to believe GM would up and do that but I guess you never know. Did you try http://gmpartsdirect.com? The only other suggestion I would have had was to see if a salvage yard had some low mileage struts.
Nice try over on the "Pontiac In Trouble" board, but I think it's a lost cause. Although, it's kind of fun to watch them flail around like a bunch of children down at the McDonald's playplace. :-)
Agreed - on those boards it's all about timing. If your thoughts are taken up within 1/2 dozen posts or so, you might actually get an interesting dialogue going. OTOH, if you hit the 'childish banter happy-hour', the post kinda just hangs out there.
I posted the following yesterday in the Consumer Reports thread in N&V - ever since I noticed that CR rated the Bonneville as the 8th safest large family car (vs. a 3rd place for the Toyota Avalon), I've been convinced that CR doesn't look hard enough for the good in many American cars and don't look critically enough at many imports - particularly those from Toyota.
"The latest CR issue places the '00 Bonneville 8th in terms of safety for large cars. They give it a blank circle for accident avoidance and a half red for crash protection. In contrast, CR gives the 3rd place (and top of the line) '00 Avalon XLS a half red circle for avoidance and full red for crash protection.
This despite the fact that: CR tested the bottom of the line SE model which lacks the firmer suspension (including beefier sway bars), tighter steering and traction control and stability control systems found in some SLE and most SSEi models (which comprise 50% of the Bonneville's sales). Naturally, CR tested the top of the line Avalon - I do not know if their tester was equipped with its VSC system as, unlike the Bonneville, this is optional on the Av's top of the line model. Regardless, I've driven both cars and the Bonnie has the better handling (the Avalon has absolutely numb steering and you get body roll in even moderate cornering) and other critical things (like braking) are pretty close between these two.
As for crash protection: the Bonneville gets IIHS's best pick for front offset in its (heavier) class - a virtually identical mark to the Avalon'sIn NHTSA testing, the '02 Avalon gets two 4 star ratings for frontal collisions and a 4 and 5 for (front and rear) side impact. Whereas the '00-'02 Bonneville gets a 4 and 5 star rating for frontal collisions and two 4 star ratings for side impacts.
CR's narrative comments for these two cars? On the Av: "No frontal crash test. Good offset crash result." On the Bonnie: "Very good crash results" CR even gives the ES300 the same crash protection score as the Bonnie - despite their admission that the ES had no offset crash test (???)"
Also, the Highway Loss Data Institute (sister to the IIHS) in their "Injury, Collision & Theft Losses" report (09/01) based on real world accident injury claims ranks the Bonneville 13% better then the Avalon.
Yeah - I had seen that as well. I chalked it up to CR's sloppiness - I think that their ambition to measure safety exceeds their ability to do so. However, given CR's pretensions as scientific, unbiased, etc., I think it's irresponsible of them to make these errors as often as they do.
Do people really think that? I've always viewed CR as a bunch of propoganda, especially as they relate to cars (not as much with blenders or ice cream makers ). Are there really people who view it as scientific?
Even with respect to blenders and ice cream makers, their conclusions are usually pretty pointless as they tend to base them on ridiculous criteria.
for a '94 Bonneville SE. ACDelco's web site kicks up something like half a dozen different types of struts depending on the following code numbers: FE1, FE2, FW1, etc. There's a sticker on the trunk lid of my Intrigue that lists the codes for that car, but I've been unable to find the same kind of sticker on our Bonneville. I'd appreciate any help you could lend. Thanks.
We gave some friends of ours a ride last night when we went out to dinner. They have a 99 Bonneville SE but he wasn't familiar with the boost gauge and why it was in the negative zone. I told him it was just reading manifold pressure but I told him I'd be happy to show him the needle in the positive zone. I punched it away from a stop sign and I think his eyes almost bugged out from his head. He couldn't stop saying how different my car was from theirs. It was fun to show off a bit and to see the look on his face.
Rock on! The other day I blew away a Cavalier Z24 who thought (or at least wanted his passenger to believe) that he was hot stuff. And I wasn't even trying! (Well, maybe a *little*, but it's no match of course :-) Maybe it's not fair to pick on these guys, but I also know enough not to challenge the Camaros or Corvettes, so I've got to be selective about my competition!
I hope your boost gauge is more lively with the new pulley....I know mine is. (mlm4) Don't ignore the the mustang GT's... I've embarrassed many of them, beware of them on the hiway, they rule the top end.
In general, when it comes to their reports on autmotive reliability, I have felt that they were objective in their reporting. This has been supported when I would look at problem areas of cars I own and usually, they would also show up as problem areas in CR. Where I had some problems were in subjective areas. It does seem that they exhibit a bias towards imported cars. It may be in part a result of the fact that CR is located in New York and big city preferences are often different than other areas. While the ratings aren't comparing the Bonneville and the Avalon head to head, I do think that the comparison should reflect roughly equal values for the cars, which in this case would pit the Avalon against the SLE with its better handling. Of course, for maybe $50 at the production level, GM could significantly improve the SE's handling by adding the rear sway bar. Particularly in the case of the GM V-6s, CR should be standing on top of a tall building shouting about the superior fuel economy of these cars on the highway and that the import V-6s are a disgrace for fuel economy. CR has a strong environmental slant which is fine but their failure to adequately tout the fuel economy of these cars smell of pro-import bias. Rod, my boost gauge is working just fine, thank you. I wonder how the Buick Grand National could achieve boost levels of something like 14psi while even with the different pulley, we can only get 8-9. Only thing I can figure is that GM is protecting the transmission by restricting the boost.
Comments
Hey guys! almost 3000 posts and we got our first honest to goodness TH troll! Like those small barking dogs, they tend to go away if you ignore them. And just like those dogs, you can have some fun keeping them around too! Still, this troll doesn't seem to be offering anything clever, so I'd suggest we ignore it. Of course, it does drive a Lamborghini (!!!) so it's probably not used to being ignored. I'm guessing a Countach - that's the Lambo model I see parked in most trailer parks up this way. Alright, so underneath, they're usually Civics and Integras but properly adorned with "type R" stickers, melon-launcher exhaust, VTec badging and bookshelf-sized rear spoilers, I can see why their owners can get so confused. Nevertheless, it still doesn't mean that there'll be any amusement for us to keep this particular Lamborghini owner around. Maybe we should wait - I sense the impending arrival of an owner of a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost with a keen interest to keep the world free from Pontiacs. Yeah, that'd be the one to wait for.
And, no, I don't mean get out the pellet gun.
Ken's Lambo
All the same, I feel for the guy - must be sad having to part with a "Lamborghini". Not to worry, I'm sure he already has his eyes on this Lambo. At least on this one, those VTEC stickers make sense.
Too "realistic" for my blood but I say GO FOR IT Ken - just don't forget the "VTec" stickers!
In all seriousness for our opinion-rich poster - if I had the money to buy a new Lambo rather than a used Bonneville - which happens to be one of the best buys for the money according to many sources - I'd buy a Bentley Arnage Red Label. Now that's an amazing CAR!!!!
Unless you insist on buying new to avoid "someone else's problems" or care to buy and keep for years and years you nearly always win on the depreciation game by buying a car that is one (like mine) to 3 years old and keeping it for the best years of its life - then selling or trading before major repairs begin.
Now if you're buying either Lambos or Bentleys (or any other exhorbitantly priced automobile) you're going to throw away on an annual basis more in depreciation expense than the entire purchase price of a new Bonneville SSEi - or even 2 or 3 of them!
BTW, Edmunds prefers that some words be avoided. Dung references tend to get scribbled.
BTW - I meant to say CARP as in the fish!!!
The whole thing smelled a bit 'fishy' to me.
Are you a certain 'professional sports' player from Calif that was posting under a different name a month or so ago at the Roadside Cafe???
A lot of this discussion sure sounds eerily familiar to me.
BTW - Bonnevilles ARE a bit bigger than Impalas!
The person who suggested ignoring the troll hit the nail on the head. Um, except seems like you folks forgot to do that?
I've removed some posts, left some others that might should have been removed, and will continue to remove any more posts by the many-times-previously-banned troll.
PLEASE do not respond to him. You really make my job much harder. It's a very time consuming process to delete posts. I sure would appreciate the assist!
Thanks.
Pat
Sedans Host
The Bonneville is MY car and so I actually don't normally drive the van. It was with a great deal of trepidation that I did a walkaround of the Bonneville when I got home but to my great relief, she didn't put any door dings or anything else on it while I was gone.
I was impressed with Bill's picture of his rides but what I really would have like to have seen was his sailboat, either hogging a space in the garage if it would fit or otherwise prominently displayed in the picture.
I'll try to do better next time.
Mark: I don't know if you've checked out the Venture - but it has some interesting functionality with the fold down seat and storage cubbies in the aft. I'm not suggesting that it's superior to the Odyssey (it's not) but I was suitably impressed when a friend showed me his new '02 Venture a few weeks ago.
I'd say about the only ways that GM has fallen short with their recent minivan incarnations is on the crash test ratings (fixable) and the engine choices ...er...choice (perhaps not as easily fixable).
Next time I'll bite my tongue.
Ken's Arnage dream
Hmm - Fathers' day coming......
Thanks much,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Stop tormenting yourself - besides, I'm trying to imagine that Bentley with a spoiler on the aft & it just doesn't work for me.
And that blue paint is just magnificent.
Tormenting? Gotta stop drooling here - it's bad for the keyboard.
Do you have a music video on MTV?
Has your house been showcased on MTV Cribs?
I think the Bonnie is a much better choice.
Enjoy the ride.
P.S. My wife got the oil changed today, and she brought me home a 2002 Bonneville brochure from the dealership. I love to read the propaganda, only this time I have one in the garage.
Great trip up the California and Oregon coasts. About 1,200 miles of roads that really would have been great fun in the SSEi (rather than the Avis Century... sigh).
mfahey1... you know how to make a guy smile... but the boat is still out in a barn... barely outta winter in here in Wisconsin.... but here is a pix anyway.
http://webpages.charter.net/weshelton/h101b.jpg
and another from last July with a bit more wind...
http://webpages.charter.net/weshelton/h101x06a.jpg
Toys are soooo much fun.
I wonder what they'll say when I want to go ashore to a GM dealership and check out the Monaro? I think I can guess and it won't be pretty. I think it is called mutiny on the high seas.
Only 50% of the Bonnie's sales are coming from the SE. The target 3 years ago was 60-70%. Apparently, the rental agency business has all but dried up and most sales are at the retail level - where the SSEi and SLE do better (than with rental agencies).about 25% of SE buyers opt for the bench seat.The Bonnie's G platform is a strong user of hydroformed steel and tailor-welded panel blanks. These are among the main reasons why the platform is so rigid and why the Bonneville exceeds "roof crush" requirements.
That latter stuff interests me. As for the roof crush, the Bonnie uses a hydroformed steel rail which connects the A, B, and C pillars and then anchors into the floor pan. Plus, the Bonnie uses tailor-welded blanks in both the side panels and the floor panel (the G's use of the latter is a domestic first). TWB is a steel technology which essentially puts the thicker panels of steel where it has the biggest impact - achieving safety and rigidity benefits without the weight disadvantage of thicker steel all over.
Neat.
Ken
I know Midwesterners tend to drive larger cars but to see three of these cars lined up in one block on the same side of the street had me doing double takes.
I posted the following yesterday in the Consumer Reports thread in N&V - ever since I noticed that CR rated the Bonneville as the 8th safest large family car (vs. a 3rd place for the Toyota Avalon), I've been convinced that CR doesn't look hard enough for the good in many American cars and don't look critically enough at many imports - particularly those from Toyota.
"The latest CR issue places the '00 Bonneville 8th in terms of safety for large cars. They give it a blank circle for accident avoidance and a half red for crash protection. In contrast, CR gives the 3rd place (and top of the line) '00 Avalon XLS a half red circle for avoidance and full red for crash protection.
This despite the fact that:
CR tested the bottom of the line SE model which lacks the firmer suspension (including beefier sway bars), tighter steering and traction control and stability control systems found in some SLE and most SSEi models (which comprise 50% of the Bonneville's sales). Naturally, CR tested the top of the line Avalon - I do not know if their tester was equipped with its VSC system as, unlike the Bonneville, this is optional on the Av's top of the line model. Regardless, I've driven both cars and the Bonnie has the better handling (the Avalon has absolutely numb steering and you get body roll in even moderate cornering) and other critical things (like
braking) are pretty close between these two.
As for crash protection:
the Bonneville gets IIHS's best pick for front offset in its (heavier) class - a virtually identical mark to the Avalon'sIn NHTSA testing, the '02 Avalon gets two 4 star ratings for frontal collisions and a 4 and 5 for (front and rear) side impact. Whereas the '00-'02 Bonneville gets a 4 and 5 star rating for frontal collisions and two 4 star ratings for side impacts.
CR's narrative comments for these two cars?
On the Av: "No frontal crash test. Good offset crash result."
On the Bonnie: "Very good crash results"
CR even gives the ES300 the same crash protection score as the Bonnie - despite their admission that the ES had no offset crash test (???)"
Even with respect to blenders and ice cream makers, their conclusions are usually pretty pointless as they tend to base them on ridiculous criteria.
I punched it away from a stop sign and I think his eyes almost bugged out from his head. He couldn't stop saying how different my car was from theirs. It was fun to show off a bit and to see the look on his face.
Where I had some problems were in subjective areas. It does seem that they exhibit a bias towards imported cars. It may be in part a result of the fact that CR is located in New York and big city preferences are often different than other areas.
While the ratings aren't comparing the Bonneville and the Avalon head to head, I do think that the comparison should reflect roughly equal values for the cars, which in this case would pit the Avalon against the SLE with its better handling. Of course, for maybe $50 at the production level, GM could significantly improve the SE's handling by adding the rear sway bar.
Particularly in the case of the GM V-6s, CR should be standing on top of a tall building shouting about the superior fuel economy of these cars on the highway and that the import V-6s are a disgrace for fuel economy. CR has a strong environmental slant which is fine but their failure to adequately tout the fuel economy of these cars smell of pro-import bias.
Rod, my boost gauge is working just fine, thank you. I wonder how the Buick Grand National could achieve boost levels of something like 14psi while even with the different pulley, we can only get 8-9. Only thing I can figure is that GM is protecting the transmission by restricting the boost.
Mark