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Decided that while retirement was great and I wouldn't trade the last 21 months for anything, it's back to the work world and along with it a 90 mile round trip commute. So now the Bonneville will start piling up the miles after having only put 22,000 on it in nearly 3 years. If I have to be stuck in a car for such a long commute, I'm glad I have the Bonneville.
Here's the Chicago Tribune article mfahey1 referred to:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/chi-0210200210oct20.story
Here's the Chicago Tribune article mfahey1 referred to:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/chi-0210200210oct20.story
re-ran new figures by Saturn as I told them we were standing in my PONTIAC DEALERSHIPS SHOWROOM where we leased the 2000- and that Pontiac was offering me a 2003- Grand-PRIX GT- 1SC package etc- Leather seats-heated driver seat, 4 way power lumbar, premium lighting etc , etc, for less than their L-300. TAXES INCLUDED>- Don't believe the talk that SATURN Can't/won't negotiate with you!- They LOWERED their price to match what Pontiac offered- then I pushed the envelope one more time- I told them that Pontiac was also giving me a Sun-roof- could they match or beat that?- ( Nothing like talking on your cell phone to one dealership as you have the other right next to you !!!!)
AND THE SURVEY SAY'S- NO!!!!!!
NEW 2003 GRAND-PRIX- GT, RED-FIREMIST METALLIC on order!!!!
Thanks for the info on the loyalty offer- I also didn't get any straight answers from SATURN FINANCE when I kept asking them why their monthly figures were off from mine-they could not even tell me if the down payment plus the $500- loyalty was part of the bottom line deposit figures off of their own SATURN.COM Site- Go figure!
Chuck
We do give you a chance to edit a post for about 30 minutes after you've posted it, though -- you'll see an Edit button to the right of your post title if the 30 minutes has not elapsed.
And you always have the option of deleting your own posts. There should always be a delete button to the right of your post title.
All of that said, the most common reason for double posting seems to be that folks hit Post to post a message and then -- understandably -- do a Refresh/Reload to see what has changed since the post. Because of the screwy way WebX handles things, that Refresh/Reload causes the message to be reposted even though it is no longer in the post box of your page.
No problem though -- just delete the re-post!
I hope this helps -- feel free to drop me an email if I can help you find your way around or deal with the oddities of this platform.
Chuck.
What helps the payment is the option package discount that the 1SC group shows. The residual is figured from the higher before discount figure. Also the free leather savings helps.
I've recently started to see some CTSs around here and decided that color is everything to the design. I have seen several that have been reasonably attractive but there is one in burnt orange that is just plain butt ugly.
Metallic- I had to call them first thing this morning -they were ready to pick the car up in New Hampshire- (I reside in NJ)- now their searching for the Redfire- still hoping for a pick-up tomorrow evening after 5Pm!!
Thanks for letting me know again about the amount being $750.00- You better believe I'll let them know it when the papers are signed!
You are correct-the program ends Oct 31st for the lease loyalty- the roll-up for all vehicle leases that end in Jan, Feb, and March, 2003 ends either the last day of November or the first couple of days in December of this year- I'm not sure exactly when.
Also, your right on the money as to why I can get a Grandprix that lists out over $3000.00 more than the L300 Saturn ,for the same price and better options "Discounted!"-something that the Saturn Dealerships cannot do without loosing their franchises supposedly.
1st of all, can't wait to see the GXP hit the dealerships and I, for one, am prepared to wait for it. Sure, you can swap pulleys on the SSEi and the early speculation is that you won't be able to on the GXP. I'm just assuming - perhaps incorrectly - that the GXP's suspension, rubber, brakes, etc. are going to be tuned for that kind of power (at least until the rev limiter kicks in - can you say reprogged PCM?).
Plus, the exterior's going to be refreshened. I don't know about the rest of you, but I recently saw a red '03 Grand Am - no cladding ribs on the side and a restyled front clip. Honestly, I had to do a double-take - at first, I thought it was a new Grand Prix!
I've heard about the 2nd gen. CTS as well. 350 ponies makes it attractive. Getting one at cost is even better (and in Canada, GM cars are usually cheaper than in Stateside). Problem with me is that I have a practical side that would err on the side of size, safety, and versatility over ostentation and performance.
Silly me.
Dan
Thanks for your feedback on the Michelin Energy's Evandro. Anybody else with advice on a good all-season performance for the Bonneville with the 235/55/17s?
Dan
Residual Value should be based on the higher number before the $600 1SC discount, or around $26,000 (based on edumnds and what your dealer finds).
Rebates come off your sales price: $750 loyalty (pontiac-pontiac), $500 SmartLease (from GM Buypower) and $650 Leather Allowance (recent mailing from Pontiac) for $1,900. Plus whatever you have on your GM Card (which I hope you got) (GM Card site shows max allowance with new copper/platinum card is up to $2,250 for 2003 Grand Prix).
Also I think no security deposit of the new lease.
Check with the dealer about what it might cost to get to 36 months. Playing around with Buypower, it looks like it could be less then $1,000 additional down to make the 36 month payment equal the 48 month. That gets you back a year earlier. (Could save tires/brakes/other repair costs in final year). Good luck and keep you eyes open.
Talked to dealer today- the car is located but not in until maybe tomorrow or Friday now- however, I ran by those figures to them- and before i could even mention the leather buyback they told me your exact figure- $1900.00- on top of my deposit. Thanks again- ever consider going into the lease info business (LOL)
Unfortunately I do not have the Gm Credit Card- never applied for one. Too much plastic money already!
*I posted a message over on the Grand Prix site in response to a prior statement- I need some info on this- anyone know the exact 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times for a 2003- L300 Saturn 6 cyl (182 h/p) versus a 2003 Grand Prix GT Sedan with the normal 3800 Series II (200 h/p)- which vehicle has the faster times?
I test drove both vehicles and it seemed to me that the Grand Prix appeared to be quicker off the line but thats not to say that the Saturn still isn't faster over the long run. I don't know!- the old days of "HEY, YOU WANNA RUN IT"- are long gone ,at least in my case.
Chuck
Pretty darned close - but in compensation, the L300 gets better mileage.
ice
Since 1955, there has been 12 Pontiacs, ranging from a 55 Star Chief, to a 97 GTP in my family. In Mar, Mr. Lutz was quoted as saying, "I would like to see Pontiac get a lot closer in the overall driving experience to BMW;Theres a lot we can do in that area without having a great big high-torque V8. I am a Pontiac and BMW owner/enthusiast. I am a member of POCI, enjoy Pontiac web sites, car shows, magazines, and history books.
As an enthusiast, the Pontiac reputation I know was built on value, dependability and longevity. In the 50s we had Fireball Roberts winning with real Pontiacs (bodies and motors). In the 60s high horsepower, & beautifully designed Grand Prix & GTO bodies lit the enthusiast fire. In the dark days of the 70s Pontiac did the best they could adjusting to change. In the 80s Firebird, Ferro and the Bonneville SSE began the we build excitement awakenings. Then Rocky brought us Luxury with Attitude in the 90s with the SSEi & new GTP.
I attended this years POCI convention in Charleston, WV., and thought I offer my feelings about what I learned at the largest annual all Pontiac event. First was the lack of young Pontiac owners. Yes there were plenty examples of great Pontiacs of the past and their older owners, but little attendance/showing of young Pontiac owners or their cars of the present.
The second thing I saw was a great presentation about past Pontiac drag racing history given by Arnie Beswick, but there was no presentation given or person scheduled to discuss the future of Pontiac drag racing (i.e., utilizing V6-front wheel drive GTP or supercharged four cylinder cars). You see, I cant find anything in the Pontiac line up next year except either V6 or Four cylinder motors.
That brings me to the third thing I learned. It was very nice of Pontiac to allow the Marketing Director for GTO, Grand Prix and Bonneville to attend and make a nice video presentation about Pontiac. I really enjoyed the presentation about how Pontiac is approaching the design of the new GTO, and what the design team was told when they first decided to produce the new GTO. In addition, we were told that Pontiac sees the new GTO as a Halo car, which means it shines its light down on the other products in the division, and that the production numbers for the car will remain at approx. 18 thousand a year in order to preserve the car as a halo car. Then the audience was allowed to ask questions and that is when I learned that Pontiac Motor Division may be in trouble.
Question to the Marketing Director-There has been a lot written lately about GM attempting to develop a special performance group. If there is, what effect will it have on Pontiac and things like the GTO program Answer-Yes there is something going on in that area, but I can't answer that question at this time because it may affect what we are doing now and our plans for the future. Duh-Your making a presentation in front of one of the largest group of Pontiac enthusiast in the country, and do you think they came to hear you say you can't tell us? Who the hell does he think is going to spread the word and kick up enthusiasm about Pontiac product?
Question-You have stated the price for the new GTO will be between 30 to 35 thousand. How are you going to be able to sell the car at that price when you have stated that the production will be held to approx. 18 thousand a year, which includes cars which may be used as pace cars or promotional cars and will further reduce the number available for the public? Answer-Were working on that and I must say we won't have a lot of ability to control the price once the car arrives at the dealer. You must remember the new Thunderbird sells right now a little over the suggested retail price. Duh-the first GTOs were very affordable. All you had to do was order the GTO package on the Tempest. How does Pontiac think young people will be able to afford the GTO? More later
The SSEI is very easy to modify up to and beyond GXP concept, using GTP aftermarket parts.
I have 18X8.5 monoblock lightweight alloy wheels with 245/45 Michilen Pilot ultra high-performance tires. This makes the car hold the road and handle at a whole new level.
I switched to the 3.25 inch pulley and gatorback belt (less slip more boost).
I have a thrasher cold air intake. I just put the other guys headers.
A smaller pulley is a good start. I would get a system that allows you to switch pulleys or start with the 3.4 pulley (not 3.25 like in mine).
I had the 3.4 in the SSEi at first, and now have it in my GTP. The 3.4 alone will make the SSEi very fast - given it better stock exhaust than GTP.
On the GTP. I have the same wheel and tire dimensions, but different size.
I also did front/rear strut tower braces and front/rear sways bars.
These cars are now absolutely amazing. I have spent maybe 5K on modifications between the two of them. The majority of that was the wheel/tire packages, 1500(ssei) and 2K (gtp).
Also, I'm not sure it's reasonable to compare the new GTO with the original. Times have changed, and all Pontiac is really doing with the GTO name is trying to resurrect some sort of marketing magic and hope that it still works. Pontiac does not build cars the way they did in the '60s, where you could add an option package to a mass-production car and get something very unique and special. As far as production numbers, it is convenient for them to limit production (especially at first while they test the market) because all the GTOs are going to be imported from Australia at great expense, no doubt. Just my two coppers.
I am surprised this isn't offered today given advances in manufacturing which make build to order from parts much more feasible (like dell computers).
I know GM had much more marketshare, but the total volume of cars is probably higher now, so their shouldn't be any huge issues with economies of scale.
It might very well be that there are just no longer as many enthusiasts with the hotrod ethos to make this a viable business.
I think a lot of this has to do with the increasingly
oppressive speed limits and enforcement (point system, potential loss of license) - especially given capabilities for safe high speed travel of modern cars and roads
high insurance rates especially for young males in performance oriented cars
lower real income of males in low twenties - due to either being in college or being in a service sector job as oppose to high paying union manufacturing job
I know a lot of people who forgo F-bodies because of the insurance. My agent quoted me the same rate for a C5 Vette, Z06 Vette, or Firebird/Camaro.
The other group of performance oriented car buyers have become much more focused on status and style which pop culture attaches to european brands.
However, all your Pontiac needs is a little tender love and car from the aftermarket and you will truly have driving excitement.
Don't led badge snobs and rear wheel drive biggots get to you!
When your GTP or SSEi is running low 13s or even 12s in the 1/4, and pulling 1G on the skidpad will it matter that it is a front wheel drive automatic?
I don't even think about that any more just point and shoot:)
So as I leave the dealer I'm comparing how different the experience is when I visit my BMW dealer. As an example, last year I went into the BMW dealer and bought off the shelf, a new OE set of floor mats for my 86 BMW without having to order and wait for their arrival.
Another example is, in Oct 1996 (against my better judgment) I bought a new 97 Grand Prix GTP. I got rid of the Grand Prix in Oct 1998 for several reasons, of which the biggest was, I got tired of driving the same car as a Chev Monte Carlo, or a Buick Regal, (same engine & platform) etc.
When I traded the GTP, I purchased a 99 Toyota 4runner. Now with 84K trouble free miles from the Toyota, I have decided I want a new car again. As long as GM continues to allow their divisions to sell the same vehicles with the same motors, and not really allow Pontiac to be different I'm going to be buying outside of GM.
I'm going to keep my 92 SSEi, but I'm going back to BMW for my next new purchase. You know the funny thing is Bob Lutz still thinks making Pontiac like BMW is the way to go, but they'll never make it. BMW makes cars that don't share platforms or engines.
I can't wait to watch all the new GTO owners when they purchase their limited edition "halo" cars only to discover that Chev comes out with the same car but it's going to be say a Malbu SS, or the Buick Wildcat, etc.
However, the uniqueness factor does not seam signficant to rule out any car on the platform.
I have also owned by a Grand Prix GTP Coupe and Buick Regal GS. The cars are considerably different in drivng experence than the shared parts of magazines would have you believe.
Down with speed limits and EPA regs!
Maybe if we didn't clog the road commuting to jobs that can be done via computer/telephone, we could have safe roads, clean airs, cars of our choice, and go fast!!!
We were SOOOOOOOOOO close to the elevens this past weekend:
http://clubgp.com/cgi-asp/qtrmile.asp
Sorry to interrupt, but I figured some of you would want to know.
Scott
2000 Bad SSEi
The SSEi now has 3.25 pulley, thasher cold air, and headers with 18X8.5 wheels and 245/45 ties. I want to do an intense heavy duty trans with 3.29 FDR and LSD. I will probably do intense rockers next.
The GTP has 3.4 pulley and front/rear strut towers and front/rear sway bars, plus 18X8.5 wheels with 245/45 tires. I want do intense rockers, pushrods, and maybe a cam - not to mention transmission with 3.69 FDR and possibly Quife differential.
My goal is to make the Bonneville a powerful cruiser, and the GTP a nimble road rocker. Hence in terms of drive train, my focus on SSEisis broad smooth torque curve with excellent HP, but high end power and gearing to match in GTP.
Both cars always seem have an abundance of low torque no matter what mods you do. I guess its just a question of where you want to add more torque:)
My problem now is, my lease on my '98 TransAm is up in March '03. I guess I could buy it at lease end and drive it for another year while I wait for the new GXP. Dang! That's maybe 15-16 months more waiting.
Long live the Bonneville! Long live the Aurora V8!
As for the 3.8 V6 exhaust note, I like it! That V-engine roar got me hooked on it! So much so that my SLE never ceases to put a grin on my face!
;^)The Mazda 6 seems to have had its head-lights inspired on the Bonneville's too.
This could keep me in a Bonneville! Still, it makes you wonder how GM can get away with not putting a 5 speed auto in this car. If they don't, they better compensate with a healthy dose of cojones.
Does anybody know much about the 4.4L a current powerplant? I'm not familiar with it.
I'm starting to save my nickels and dimes.
ice
Just like with the Camaro we ordered in 1970 and still have, I might just have to be there on the first day the dealer can accept an order with checkbook in hand.
4.4 DOHC v8?
wow....GM is branching out.....may change my thinking on Pontiacs.....
The articles suggest that the GXP will have the Hydra-Matic 4T80-E. Here's the link to that particular tranny: GM Powertrain. It's a four speed.
I don't know why GM doesn't develop a good strong 5 speed for its higher end cars. Although several "enthusiasts" I know don't like auto 5 speeds for their "gear hunting" particularly in hilly and changeable speed situations. Perhaps there's more than frugality in GM's strategy?
ice
Chuck.
The Aurora V8 was 1st used in the... Olds Aurora. The same platform also serves as base for the 3.5 V8 turbo used in Indy cars.
I agree with the idea that if you are going to put an upgraded, sophisticated power plant like the 4.4L into a car like the GXP, you need a transmission to go with it. The CTS has a 5 speed auto and yes I know, it's rear drive so a completely different layout but the point is, GM has seen merit in developing the 5 speed for a low volume vehicle like the CTS so why not upgrade the transaxle for the Bonneville?
Ah yes, but the CTS is a low volume car for which GM has hopes for the future. Contrast that to how they view the Bonneville.
Still, I think that a V8 Bonneville has the potential to one day become a collectible - in the same way as an '87 GNX or '94-'96 Impala SS.
I'm still waiting to hear about the price.
ice
P.S. Ezrapon, it's even worse than that - my nickels and dimes are Canadian!
I agree that the 3.5 is better mill than the 3800, and in fact it has proven more reliable in recent studies (probably due to cost-cutting with the 3800 since it is certainly a proven design) and I wish it had stuck around after the Intrigue. Don't get me wrong, the 3800 and the 3800 S/C are very powerful and efficient, but they don't have the smoothness the 3.5 did (and the Premium V8 is smoother still). I'm always amazed by the off-the-line power of the 3800 S/C (a family member has a Regal GS), but I'd still take my 4.0 any day. It doesn't fly off the line, but punch it from 30 or 70 or any cruising speed and the acceleration is incredible. I've always felt the Bonneville was too upscale for the 3800. Especially the SSEi, considering the price around $35K. This 4.4L V8 sounds like a great idea. Plus, it will help keep the GTO from overshadowing the SSEi (GXP). A base Bonneville with the 3.5L V6, or one of GM's new high-feature V6's would be perfect.
TIA
The study about the 3.5 and 3.8 was posted on the Intrigue board. Ill try to find it. But, keep in mind, it is for any engine problems. Im sure the crank and block and such of the 3800 is solid. But I know the intake manifold has had some leaking problems. Perhaps because of some cost-cutting measures with the materials or gaskets used. GM really goes crazy about reducing the production costs of some things.
Here is that post about the engines. I guess I remember them mentioning the 3800 too. But you could check out the JD Powers thing.