By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I think GM deserves a lot of credit for differentiating the GXP from other offerings. After all, you could get a LeSabre with the L67 and a higher numerical axle ratio and outperform the SSEi. Now what they have done is create an engine specifically for the GXP which really sets it apart from anything else in their lineup. As far as I'm concerned, bravo, bravo. Of course, I still expect the same outstanding fuel economy out of the 4.4L as the L67. Any bets on that?
Unfortunately (for GM), this is exactly the segment that they're tapping into when they flog an upmarket Pontiac. The GTO will win them some clout in this market - a GXP could help even further.
Perhaps what we will see is the Bonneville name coming back on an AWD V8 model of the future Grand Prix...
At least, we've got some interesting things to watch at Pontiac in the coming few years.
ice
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3832
One must really lean forward to read the time, station, info, etc.
Has anyone found a solution? Any Suggestions? Any aftermarket levers with different curves?
R.I.P. the 396 big block...the mother of torque.
It is - sadly - the way of things...
ice
However, I would definitely agree with you that the Bonnie needs a smoother motor. I'm glad to see they are considering a V8 for the ultra model. For $35K+, I think the 3800 S/C lacks the needed refinement, but it sure as heck doesn't lack power. I also hope they keep the 4.4L Bonnie at around $35,000. I hope it doesn't swell to over $40K.
Why do you call the 3800 a Park Avenue motor? That's just one other car it goes in. The 3800 has also been in cars like the Buick Grand National and the GNX, and in the fastest-ever (according to Car & Driver) factory Firebird: the 1989 Turbo Trans-Am.
That being said, I didn't buy the Bonnie because of the engine - I didn't really know the 3.8 at the time (remember, I had been a longtime import owner). No, I bought it because its performance, mileage, price, etc. were competitive with everything else I was looking at. However, when we bought our second car - the '01 Grand Prix - the 3.8 was a major attraction.
And that probably illustrates my point - those who know the 3.8, appreciate its charms; whereas those who don't won't be seduced into the showrooms with uncompetitive numbers.
As for the Acura TL-S, I think that's an example of a fine car and serious competitor. We could quibble over price and performance preferences - like launch vs. passing power. At the end of the day, the Acura still stacks up quite well - a look at the sales figures punctuates that point.
The 3.8 is a fine powerplant and, even after all these years, still represents an industry leading balance of performance, mileage, emissions, and afforability - perhaps at the expense of NVH. But at $35k+, it just won't serve GM well in the future if it can't put bums in seats.
ice
Can Pontiac really afford to wait until '04 to bring out the GXP? Let's hope they're planning on a Fall '03 launch.
ice
Besides, pretty much all 5-speed automatics I've check out really only have a shorter, additional 1st gear with negligible or no changes in the other gear ratios.
IMO, just another marketing ploy of "mine is bigger than yours"...
:^)Take the Intrigue's 3.5, for example, an engine that has most of its power band in the higher RPM, yet offering generous torque in lower RPM as well: a 4-speed automatic does quite well on it.
Let's face it, the 3.8 has an awesome torque curve, but it tapers off a wee too soon. The SC fares better, but then the red-line is at mere 6000RPM, a wee too low. Were it 6500 or 7000RPM, the 3.8 SC would be unbeatable.
Just hope that the coming 3.9 OHV V6 addresses these points.
I've always attributed the Bonneville's poor sales to the fact that it wasn't distinct enough from the GP. After all, the Bonneville didn't have that much more interior room and the performance difference is marginal (with a nod to the less-expensive GP actually).
Put a V8 in the Bonneville and don't offer one in the Grand Prix and you might actually have a future for the Bonneville. Perhaps a "nicely equipped" SE and the tiger-in-the-tank V8 version.
The big question is, if the '04 sells well, will GM have time to put the development of a future Bonnie back on track or will they be limited to only considering tagging the Bonneville name on to some variant of the GP - possibly with a V8?
ice
Maybe I’m reading too much into that, but it sounds like maybe the Bonneville isn’t dead yet. Especially, as ice says, if the ’04 sells well. Sales are always the key, of course. With the Vibe and GrandAm, and maybe the GP, too, Pontiac is clearly appealing to the younger set, and maybe if enough get hooked on Pontiac, GM will see a future for the Bonnie as an upscale luxury performance sedan that still costs less than many competitors.
I fell in love with Bonneville in ’58, but couldn’t afford one then. Had to settle for a new ’58 Impala. I didn’t get into a new Bonneville until ’67, but that was also my last Bonneville. I have been in Pontiacs ever since, though, with six TA’s including an ’89 Turbo TA and several GP’s. I cooled off on Bonneville when the V-8 went away, but am salivating over the prospect of getting hold of a V-8 GXP. I just hope that’s not the end of the Bonneville as we know it.
please GM, give us this car.
ice
I don't often need the punch at highway speed - but launching power is something I need on a daily basis. The road that the bulk of my commute is on travels at 60 (on a good day). When I pull out unto it, I want to do it safely, without a lot of torque steer or skittishness - and at little or no impact on the cars behind me. Consequently, I pay more attention to 0-30 and 0-60 than I do the 30-50 and the 50-70. Ideally, I'd like to have them all.
Am I asking too much?
ice.
hmmm...
Probably couldn't afford the tires it'd melt.
>:(
P.S. After having read all discussion boards that would have pertained to GM cars with the 3800 motor I have to get this off my chest. The 3800 was the single biggest selling point of my Intrigue purchase. Up until this problem it was the only bulletproof item on the car and something that an american car company could be proud of! I have seen many posts that say that the 3800 is still a reliable engine despite the upper intake manifold problem. I have to dissagree. Any motor that costs me almost $1000 after 58K pampered miles is no longer considered reliable in my book! I can get a Chevy Crapalier to continue to run if I dump a grand in it every 60k miles!
of course his tranny blew 1200 bucks at 37,000 miles....now it was something having to do with the plastic manifold and coolant getting into the heads......something cracking or something. Sounds like that bulletproof 3800 to me.
My father in law is 77. He didn't work his whole life and retire at 75 just so he could dump cash into a supposedly reliable car. He thought the 3800 was a 'bulletproof' powertrain.
Funny thing is, he mentioned that maybe he was gonna have to shift to buying a Chrysler or maybe a Diamante like his daughter's car. Now the Diamante's nice but I won't even say its a Honda or Toyota in terms of reliability (mine's been trouble free knock on wood). But for a die hard lifetime GMer from the midwest to even think about buying a Chrysler or an import for that matter.....
it doesn't sound like an 'internal' problem in the 3800 but nonetheless this issue appears to be one that can cause a lot of expense.
The SHO I had was 3.0L V-6 24 valve DOHC with dual intake runners. The high speed runners didn't open until 4000rpm so the car olyt come alive when that happened. We'll see how the 4.4l engine is configured.
This would probably give you better peak torque, but further up the powerband, and a slightly better overall torque curve, and further bump horsepower.
My understanding is the Northstar is considered to be one of the most torquey multi-valve engines, be they SOHC,DOHC, or VVT.
CAI
3.25 Pulley
Intense Rockers
Intense Pushrods
TOG HEADERS
Intense HD Trans with LSD and 3:69 FDR
You would have a deep flat broad torque curve and highend power with very smooth delivery and the ability to put it to the ground:)
FWIW, Ford redesigned their plastic manifold countless times, but each new redesign proved just as bad as the previous. Now, new 4.6L motors come with plastic manifolds that have the crossover passage that kept rupturing replaced with a bolt-on aluminum piece. I don't expect Ford to use any more plastic manifolds anytime soon, and I don't expect General Motors's redesign to hold up. Sorry for the pessimistic attitude, but these "composite" intake manifolds have a very very poor track record, from what I can tell.
I do think considering the widespread use the of the 3800 that GM should recall and replace all those intakes with a redesigned aluminum one.
From what i understand the issue is that of differences in material expansion and contraction between the metal and composite.
TIA
When Ford had all of the issues with head gaskets on their 3.8L, they made an offer to replace or at least split the costs of replacement with owners who had up to 100,000 miles on them. This offer was made even if the repair wasn't done by a Ford dealer. If the problem with these manifolds is anywhere near as widespread as that of Ford's head gaskets, GM should do the right thing and pay, even if only partially, for a replacement and preferably not for a plastic one again.
I don't have the INTENSE heavy duty trans yet. I here it will cure all that tire spin via an LSD. However, the 3.69 final drive ratio might eat into your fuel economy. You can also get it with a stock or 3.29 FDR.
I can get some wheel spin even at like 30 or 40 MPH, and thats only using a litte bit of throttle:)
BTW, happy Thanksgiving to all in the US(our Canadian friends have already had theirs).
From these experiences I think that GM's TC privileges not as much no-spinning as directional stability. Unlike other cars without it, even when the wheels spin, I still have directional control and the car doesn't wag the front end while it's happening.
I don't have complaints at all about it. Unlike a friend of mine who owns a Lexus ES300 and removed the TC fuse because it just limps the engine almost stalling the car, not exactly the best thing when someone is trying to go across a busy intersection, which is his case (no, you won't get to know about it from the automotive press).
I'm looking for comfort, easy of maintence/dependability.
Anybody on this board make the same choice? If so Why?
Inputs appreciated.
Ive beat my friends stock (K&N) 96 supercharged riv. From a 20mph roll he keeps up for a little while but is completly gone by 60. off the line he has a slight edge on me, but by 55 were tied, after that he's gone.
aurora's weigh 4000lbs, which is why they don't have such good off the line power, i have no idea what a bonne weighs though
I didn't come here to bad mouth the bonne, i like the 2001 SSEI's, want to own one some day, mod the hell out of it