Volkswagen Jetta 2005 and earlier

vocus

Since tomorrow is the one-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks, what is everyone doing to commemorate the loss? Here at work, they are having a vigil and silence at the times when the planes hit the WTC. The VP of the US put us on high alert, and said to be careful and vigilant.

It's been a year already, and I still can't believe those things happend. I still remember driving down 495 in my car on the way to work, hearing that a plane hit the WTC and even saying out loud in the car, "what a terrible accident".

anonymous02

I'll probably take the wife and fathers and go to the range. A little practice is always good, and reminds one of what kind of freedoms we have as Americans. Might even invite the neighbors and their kids for some fun.

Probably also do some praying, and maybe sing the national anthem if they are doing any sort of organized thing around here.

blueguydotcom

My goodness I have 15 inch tires and I cross freeway ramps going 70 MPH that rated at 35MPH with no problems. I never feel as though I am pushing the car to it's limits, just keeping up with the flow of traffic. Do you really think VW would put a wheel size on the car that wasn't safe and make those only who opted for a 300 option of bigger tires feel road worthy? I also drive the canyons with no body lean..it's wonderful to feel good and safe in your car, but to go to the extreme and says anything else is not as fine is just untrue. The person behind the wheel is the one most in control of the handling..that's why I don't get all the mods some people do. I really think the engineers know better than some 16 year old in what makes for a better handling car..

You honestly think VW's engineers don't realize the 15s will get most drivers by just fine? Of course they do. It's the enthusiast who wants more from his car than a commuter vehicle. And I'm sure most of the engineers working on the car realize it's vast shortcomings and how to compensate for them.

To argue that wheel size/sidewall height has no bearing on handling is just plain naive.

anonymous02

So, why do many racing cars use "only" 15 inch or less tires?

It is mostly a fashion/marketing exercise, and most people know this.

anonymous02

FYI: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62220-2002Sep10.html

blueguydotcom

What race cars do this (if you say nascar, i'm gonna laugh...they go in a freaking oval)?

The other thing...sigh...don't care. Sick to death of hearing about it. Thank God I don't watch TV. It must be everywhere. Exploit anything for a buck...

anonymous02

ashutoshsm

Auto Cross - where people switch out their 'heavy' large wheel/tires for the lighter stock 13/14 inch wheel/tires. The advantage there is less unsprung weight at the corners.

Of course, in an ideal world, they would have bought super-light large wheels with low-profile tires and would race with those! But if you try to get something in the 8-12 lbs range in 17 inches, expect to pay around a couple of grand just for the (usually forged, not moulded) wheels! Cheaper 17 inch sheels (less than $100 each) are much more common, and are merely appearance upgrades/mods, given their 20lbs+ weight! The average stock/OEM 14 inch wheel/tire package weighs in over 32lbs, of which 14-15 lbs is wheel weight.

And yeah, NASCAR is a load of &^*& :-)

anonymous02

It is mostly about appearance (style).

Here is the info on TRANS-AM SERIES FOR THE BFGOODRICH TIRES CUP

http://www.imsaracing.net/menu/taindex.cfm?page=/series/ta/carfacts.htm

(16 inch tires)

Here is info on the fastest growing spec series in North America.

http://www.starmazda.com./

"Wheels: Front: 8x13 BBS Rear: 10x13 BBS"

(13 inch tires)

Here is the info on SCCA Spec Racer Ford:

http://www.scca-enterprises.com/specs.html

"Tires:Yokohama A008 SRF tire: Front - 185/60ZR13 Rear - 205/60ZR13"

(13 inch tires)

Here is information on "The Trans-Am Series is America’s performance car road racing series. Since its inception in 1966, the Trans-Am has provided a competition arena for stock-appearing touring (sedans) and grand touring (sports) race cars."


http://www.trans-amseries.com/carfacts.html

"Wheels/Tires: Wheels are steel, aluminum, magnesium, or a combination thereof. All four wheels must be 16 inches in diameter with a maximum width of 12 inches (front) and 13 inches (rear)."

(16 inch tires)

You'll notice that in these examples, there is NOT ONE single 17 inch tire, and of the 16 inch ones, those are in significantly heavy cars, which sustain VERY substantial forces compared to any street machines. I could find more examples for you, but I have a life.

anonymous02

There are 4 different racing series which I had to find, and did find, in less than 10 minutes. I don't follow this stuff, but it was easy to find. Also, the autocross stuff mentioned by someone else.

Nowhere are 17" wheels mentioned. Nor is your dreaded NASCAR, arguably one of the most popular racing series in the world, inarguably in the US.

It is all about style (mostly).

blueguydotcom

Whoa, hold up there. Not one of those instances stems from performance but from regulations. If I recall, one of those stock car type race thingies actually banned certain aerodynamic mods because they felt it allowed cars with them too much of an advantage.

You still haven't shown how smaller tires are just as good for performance. You have shown that racing series have regulations governing the size of wheels. That's neither proof that tires help nor proof they hurt performance.

Keep trying...

anonymous02

This isn't the place, and I don't have the time to help you justify your spending habits.

Good day!

ashutoshsm

All but the SCCA link refer to non-standard (compared to street sizes) wheels of width 8 inches, 10 inches and higher. Your average streetcar wheel is 6-6.5 inches wide if it is 15 inches in diameter, and less for smaller (14, 13) wheels.

blueguydotcom

No need to justify...i'm running stock 16s on my car. I may crave performance but I've got school loans and a house payment to make.

justin

i tend to agree with you. most people that buy 3 series and IS300's with 17" wheels can't drive any faster or safer than me. proven everday

i do think that a bigger wheel/tire must certainly make the car stick to the road in a more confidence inspiring manner. but actual roadholding capability has everything to do with the road, weather conditions, and the car. my experience anyway....

Anakin

Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

Speaking from real world experience, my car handles *markedly* better with the 17" combo than it did with my previous 15" stock setup. Less body roll, more grip.

On my previous Accord, I bought sport tires after the stock tires wore out. They made some difference, but not as much as my upgrade to 17s made for my Jetta.

Been there, done that.

anonymous02

"...my car handles *markedly* better with the 17" combo than it did with my previous 15" stock setup..."

Are those the same brand and model of tires? If not, then there is no basis for comparison.

Anakin

You crack me up, you really do.

I can just imagine you with your fingers in your ears going "LALALALALALALALALALA"

You never upgraded to 17" wheels and tires, so I don't see how you can base your opinion on anything but hearsay and conjecture.

blueguydotcom

I'm sold. I'm selling my BBS rims and getting some old 13 inch rims off a junker at a bone yard. I can buy 13s for 1/2 the cost of my current tires and save a ton of cash. And I'll be blessed with the same performance.

Ferrari, BMW, Porsche and all those other companies that build great handling cars don't know squat. It's all about style over substance. I'll have the real deal though...195/80R 13s. They're gonna clobber all those M3s and 911s in handling.

anonymous02

I thought we were talking about VW's here.

I didn't know this was a performance area.

;-)

Really, do you think 17 inch tires are going to get you to the mall much quicker than 15 inch tires? What is your point exactly? Is there even one? And, where has anyone shown any proof that a 17 inch tire will perform better than the same brand and model 15 inch tire on the same car? Sure, you can compare a VW with a performance car, but the differences are too numerous (duh!). But, I think the comparison of an "economy" 15" tire with a "performance" 17 inch tire is also unfair.

Think about it.

If you can't come up with anything, which you haven't as of yet, let's just move on.

Anakin

LALALALALALALA

chmeeee

If all we wanted to do in our cars was get to the mall, bigger wheels would not be the solution. We want a car that handles better to better enjoy the twisties, the on-ramps, and maybe the occaisonal Autocross. The cars that have those small wheels also have VERY wide tires, compensating for the size. Its all about the ratio of width to sidewall height, and lower is better. Since we can't get (significantly) wider tires without rubbing or sticking out and looking goofy, we need lower sidewalls, plain and simple.

I have never once heard of somebody saying that their car did not handle better with a plus one or plus two wheel size increase.

I upgraded the rims on my previous car, going from 205/15/70 to 215/16/60, and there was a world of difference, and the tires were fairly similar.

Oh, and for the proof? Yeah, look at this link:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/plus1_grm.jsp

hoodornament

I brought my Passat in for 15k service this AM, and I couldnt believe the racket going on in VW dealer. The schedule maintenance list says at 15k all that needs to be done is oil change, filter, and top off fluids. Nonetheless, the VW dealer still wanted to charge me $55 to rotate the tires as part of my maintenance. He stated that since they rotated them at 5k and 10k that I should do it at 15k. To make matters worse, I gave them a coupon straight off the VW website for a $23 oil change which he really didnt like. Has anyone heard of HAVING to rotate the tires every 5k if you did it the previous 2 visits to the dealer, or does this smell like a racket ?
Thanks

Anakin

This is definitely a racket. The dealer is not allowed to do anything to your car that you don't want.

I get free rotations because I bought my tires from Tire Rack.

vocus

You should rotate your tires every 5K miles, yes. And the dealer does charge that much money for it. I take my car to Goodyear down the street from my house for its oil changes. I give them the filter from the dealer, and they put in the oil, check the brakes, rotate the tires, top the fluids. My total is usually like $32, and that's it.

vocus

As far as 15" performance tires vs. 15" economy tires, that makes sense I guess. The Jetta comes with 195/65R15 standard, mine are 225/45HR17, the optional tires. So you have a higher speed rating, a lower profile, and a wider contact patch. The size alone is going to make some difference.

Also, I am driving a 2.0 Golf today as a loaner, with 15" rubber. I turned around the corner to enter the parking lot at work this morning, at the same speed I always do (about 10mph I guess, for a 90-degree turn), and lo and behold, SCREECH! NEVER have that happen in my car, and I round that corner everyday.

I was on an on-ramp last night and took a turn at the same speed as my car. The car leaned sharply to the left, the tires scrubbed pretty hard, and I had to step on the brake for fear of sliding into the guardrail. My dad was in the car with me, and even said "not exactly your car, is it?". So, even as a passenger, he could tell the 15s do not handle as well as the 17s.

anonymous02

Grow up. Maybe some day you will become a bigger force!

:-)

anonymous02

"I have never once heard of somebody saying that their car did not handle better with a plus one or plus two wheel size increase."

Nor would I say that either.

What I AM saying, is that people are comparing a cheap small tire to an expensive bigger tire at maybe two or three times the price. I bet if they compare apples to apples, it really will not be worth it for the extra price.

hoodornament

If you really need to rotate tires every 5k, then why doesnt the VW maintenance schedule say this ?

anonymous02

Thanks for the link, as it sort of helps prove my point a little better:

"...the Civic's original equipment tires, the Dunlop SP 20 A/S Metric, they offered all of the Plus Sizes ... necessary in their SP Sport W-10 ultra high performance tire line. The combinations of tires and wheels used for this evaluation were as follows:"

Again, comparing cheap "OEM" tires with expensive "performance" ones.

"The one area of improvement that could not be felt or timed was the one that could be seen. While each of the Plus Size tire and wheel combinations offered significantly more eye appeal than the OE steel wheels (no doubt), it was almost surprising how much each additional inch in rim diameter helped the lowered Civic Coupe complete its more aggressive visual statement."

Closing remarks? It's all about style style style!

chmeeee

EDIT: Missed a post

vocus

Michelin Pilot XGT H4 tires from TireRack.com:

195/65R15: $87 each
225/45R17: $152 each

Hardly 2-3 times the price...

anonymous02

"I get free rotations because I bought my tires from Tire Rack."

What do you do, send them back and have them reship to you in a different order?

(relax, just kidding!) :-)

vocus

Anakin: Sorry, couldn't resist, that was funny!

Both: You all need to stop this back-and-forth pre-school crap, especially on this date. Isn't there enough fighting already associated with it? Now cool it!

hoodornament

If you really need to rotate tires every 5k, then why doesnt the VW maintenance schedule say this ?

vocus

They are not going to add anything in there about tires, since VW doesn't make tires. The manufactuer's guide probably says something about it though. And it's common knowledge to rotate them every 5-6K anyway.

anonymous02

It compared the OE tires to "performance" tires from the way I saw it.

Look at the little table they give you. Did you even read the text? It compares the progression through each TYPE of tire which changes along with the size! The only thing that stayed the same was the manufacturer, Dunlop!

Sheesh!

chmeeee

OK, they admit it is aesthetics as well, and I don't deny that. Aside from the performance benifits, I like the look. If you read the quote below, they say that the plus two performs better than the plus one, so the OEM tires are left out of this part of the comparison!

"The Plus One combination set significantly faster lap times (about 1 1/2 seconds) than the OE wheels and tires, but couldn't match the times of the Plus Two and Plus Three combinations."

"On the track the 205/45R16 sized SP Sport W-10 rewarded the driver by providing faster steering response and a little more grip than the Plus One size. The handling balance of this combination "felt" very good on the Civic as the 45-series aspect ratio of the tire provided a little faster turn-in and maintained good mid-corner stability but allowed the vehicle to experience just a little understeer at the limit."

What I am suggesting is you ignore the OEM part of the comparison. If you look, you will see that the other three tire combinations all use SP Sport W-10 model tire.

anonymous02

I don't doubt that more expensive tires will perform better. No argument here. I am trying to get across that if you buy the same EXACT tire in the OE size, or maybe one size WIDER on the OE wheel, you will be doing MUCH BETTER than OE performance for like half to one third the cost of the upgrade to larger wheels and tires. I guess in the 2-3 times number, I meant to include the cost of wheels/tires and not just the tires which comes close to twice the price anyhow!

chmeeee

I think every 10k is fine, and as fr paying an extra $55, that is ridiculous. For the cost of two rotations, you could buy yourself a good hydraulic jack and stands and do it yourself for the next 100k miles for free. The jack will come in handy for other things anyways. I have always done my own tires, its fairly quick and painless, and its nice bonding time with your car ;-)

hoodornament

The VW maintenance schedule indicates every 10k as well, just a dealer trying to suck more money out of you for a 5 minute job,

Thanks

chmeeee

I am not arguing that better tires on OE wheels will do you better, I know that. The Jetta comes standard with long life all season tires, definitely not performance oriented. If you get yourself some nice Pirelli summer tires or Kumho, Yokohama, whatever your brand of choice is, you will be cornering faster. What you have been saying however, is that you will NOT be cornering faster with larger wheels. It is quite clearly proven in that article that you will perform better, and, at least in the eye of most beholders, look better in the process.

I like to be able to look at my car as I walk towards it and enjoy the styling, and I do with the Jetta. The 15" steel wheels with hubcaps and tall sidewalls, however, just don't do it for me.

anonymous02

For $55, you could buy a new tire every rotation period!

;-)

anonymous02

;-P

Really, I think the stiffness will help to some extent, but at a diminishing proportion to price, and overall, diminishing noticability as you get more to the extreme side of it, with greatly diminished ride quality as you also approach those extremes.

justin

...i could see that the lowly 15" tires would need to be rotated often. but surely not the far superior 17" tires. they are a gift from god, right? hahahahahahaha.....

vocus

What wheels do you have on your car? Just wondering.

Also, I agree that the Jettas/Golfs with 15" tires look kinda like they are sitting too high or something. Heck, even my car with its 17" wheels has a gap between the body and wheel (which I am going to fix with performance springs).

chmeeee

On the extremes, I agree with you. I would never get a plus three size upgrade (18" for Jetta). First of all, I think they look out of proportion to the car. Second of all, the performance benifits reach a plateau, where cornering ability increases very slightly, while acceleration and gas mileage decrease more and more due to the higher rotational inertia. Price also starts to go into the stratosphere, and the wheels are bent too easily. I think that 45 series is as low as necessary, thus the 17". Obviously I am not alone, as that is the size VW puts on the GTI, Jetta GLI, and in the sport package.

chmeeee

15" Steels, unfortunately. As soon as I can afford it (not soon) I will probably get 17" OZ Superleggeras (lightweight, look great). I want the lowering suspension, not too much, just the 1-1.5" drop, with matching shock absorbers.

anonymous02

I guess we agree then (kinda).

:-)

vocus

Get the Neuspeed sport springs, you will notice a world of difference. They drop the car 1.4". If you go any lower than that, you will need new shocks. Just a word of warning..

I have learned alot about mods recently from different performance shops around the MD area as well as from the vortex.

I have the VW 17s on my car (the 45 series ones) and it handles a heckuva lot better than the stock tires do. Evidence that I sited above.