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2000-2011 Chevrolet Malibu



  • regfootballregfootball Posts: 2,166
    with the little time i had on saturday, i had to stay close to home and there is only the chevy/pontiac, dodge, and ford dealer nearby.

    i gotta drive about 10 miles to get to a dealer that sells decent cars.

    anyways, i had hoped to have time to test drive the bu, since everyone tells me I MUST DRIVE ONE.

    yes GM peddles mostly pushrods. don't need to revisit that issue.

    i am more than willing to try to test drive the new GM stuff, but I don't like the interiors on any of them either. maybe if they had a GTO.....

    that's my contention all around. for the attributes I, and many others look for in a mid priced mid sized sedan

    -front drive
    -strong v6 or v8 engine with excellent NVH and sound characteristics in addition to just getting me around, often must be OHC. fours only considered if exceptional or small car
    -tasteful styling that's clean, contemporary and not cheap looking
    -firm ride and handling
    -decent looking
    -firm seats, tasteful interior

    i go through that list and to me GM just never tops out the list or meets much of that criteria. A couple cars in the past interested me like the Intrigue and Saturn L. But even those cars left me warm only, not tingly.

    Flat out, the Malibu just doesn't do it for me. Its a greatly improved car. But it still doesn't connect with me. And I think it misses with others for the same reasons I don't like it.

    Right now the car in the same price class that I like best is the MAzda6. A little above is the Saab 9-3 Linear and TSX. I really like the Saab best overall.

    Other sedans in the same classes or close to it I like are the Nissan products, the Galant. I still like the saturn L, mainly because it just isn't as freaky looking or have as cheap an insides as the bu even if its an older model.

    Of course I still like a Taurus for value reasons, and that car is way dated but its less offensive than the malibu. and quite a bit cheaper.

    Maybe I will get to the ford dealer this wkd and test a Focus SVT again. That car (and the mazda 3) is way more desirable to me than a bu because it feels so expensive. even if its smaller. The Mazda3 is a phenomal product for a compact car. The Focus is a nice Ford, but I'm tired of having fords.

    I want my 9-3.
  • dindakdindak Posts: 6,632
    I agree, 9-3 is a nice car and the Mazda 3 is likely the best small car out there now. Still would have to try one to be sure. The hatch version is not very attractive though.

    "GM peddles mostly pushrods. don't need to revisit that issue".

    Not until tomorrow anyway, right?

  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    the Malibu LT tested in the Edmunds' comparo. The Malibu LT tested is not the Malibu LT available today. GM's PR department was at fault for the mishap:

    "We were originally told that the LT we tested was a production model. However, we've since been told that it was in fact an early production model. Our PR contact over at Chevy says that "the addition of 4-wheel discs was a late change after start of production and was not reflected in the [LT's original] press information."

    We apologize for the error. Thanks for your question, and for visiting

    Warren Clarke

    Associate Editor"
  • dindakdindak Posts: 6,632
    I think it's just poor reporting on Edmund's part. I don't buy into the story, pre-production models are pretty easy to ID.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Posts: 2,918
    It wasn't a pre-production vehicle that they tested. It was a an early production vehicle which is what i thought. In other words they sent them one of the first ones off the assembly line before the cahange was made to the brakes.

    Judging from the Motor Trend article which ai believe had the stopping distance of the Malibu the same as the Accord, I don't think it would have made a difference anyway in the rankings.
  • regfootballregfootball Posts: 2,166
    the 3 is an awesome car. Even though the bu is bigger I would rather have a 3 with 4 cylinders than a bu (unless its a revelation when I test it and the 3 is a nicer drive than the 6 and the bu isn't a threat tot eh 6 in the driving dept.).
  • dindakdindak Posts: 6,632
    reg : If space wasn't a factor, I would agree. That said, with a growing again family it is a factor for me. I wonder how the new Cobalt will compare to the Malibu in terms of size.

    dtownfb : Ok, if it was early then I can see it. I still think it was a poor article. MT's comparison sounds a little more accurate to me. Camry is a dud, it sells well on it's reputation.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Dindak, perhaps you liked the MT test because the Malibu finished in a better position. Certainly, you dont mind the rather odd choice of test vehicles (Camcords w/ NAV, the Galant's sporting version instead of the more logical LS V6 given the test group.).

  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    MT said the Malibu is a great, loaded car for the bargain hunter. I think that really shows MT understood what Chevrolet is trying to do with the car.

    The sentiment is echoed by Karl Brauer's counterpoint in the Edmunds' review. The other Edmunds' editors apparently did not agree with Karl or with MT.
  • deminindeminin Posts: 214
    We just got back from a Trip to Tunica, Miss. Round trip miles were about 1200, and the 03LS did great, as usual. We'd never been to Memphis, and had to do the obligitory tour of Graceland..nice place. We're saving to buy a new Lincloln LS late this year, or early next, but if this Malibu continues to do this well, we may just save that $40K and drive the Chevy for a bit longer. At least it didn't attract too much attention when we left the Gold Strike casino with a hefty win in our pockets.
  • dindakdindak Posts: 6,632
    A NAV system isn't going to change much for Camry's position. The Mitsu model choice was a bit odd, but I have no interest in Mitsus. I think the company will be gone from North America or integrated with DC with in 10 years unless something major changes.

    Like logic says, I think MT (like CR) understands the car and it's value position.
  • Wow, you are really racking up the miles! Whats the odom at these days? I just cracked 12k at 18 months (I live 2 miles from work).
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Posts: 758
    You're the only person that reports owner experiences these days. Keep up the good work.

    breetai52: We barely cracked 12K too after 18 months. Wish we had more opportunities for road trips to give the malibu some exercise.

    alpha:Completely unrelated to the malibu comparo, I like MT better than C&D. I think the MT folks are more down to earth, and the C&D guys are pretentious and sometimes have illogical philosophy. For example, they judged the Lincoln town car using sports car standards and trashed it. Hello, get real, do you really think granny appreciates sportiness versus comfort? Give me a break. It's this stupidness that I rarely read C&D anymore.

    Our 2002 LS is still going strong and consistently gets 20-29 mpg. The heater works great in cold weather.
  • Ok here's a status update:

    552 Days
    12018 Miles
    490 Gallons
    54 Tanks

    I go up to my brother's in NH about 2ce a month to watch football. That's the only way I put miles on her. After the Patriots win the super bowl I'll be driving even less.

    The longest single trip so far was from Natick, MA (15 miles from Boston) to New Jersey for a wedding. About 400 miles round trip.

    I am a little concerned about how the engine is dealing with this cold weather, but other than that no problems.
  • deminindeminin Posts: 214
    We're pushing 14,000 miles on our "03 LS in just over a year. We bought it with the idea of having a comfortable, economical, and reliable car that we could run around the country in. So far it has done all we asked. I'm not too concerned about any trade-in value, as I figure we will get our value out of using it. I try to maintain it beyond any specs in the owners manual, and keep it in top condition so we don't have any problems in our travels.
    And, yes, I seem to be about the only one posting real world experiences on a Malibu...I thought that was what these discussions were for. I keep hoping other owners will chime in and do the same. So far, it seems like this is just a sounding board for those who want to criticize the Malibu...and many of who, according to their profiles, do not own a Malibu. Oh well, maybe these discussions IS their life.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Posts: 758
    breetai52: You even keep track of the numbers of gallons and tanks? Wow, that's a meticulous person :) We should all go to you when facts need to be straightened on this board.

    deminin: You're definitely getting your money's worth out of the malibu. Good for you. We're extremely satisfied with ours too (mainly the wife's car). The Malibu is an unbelievable value if nothing else. I think the prospective buyers will appreciate our real world expereiences.
  • 99 Bu
    45K miles
    2nd serpentine belt
    2nd cambers on two wheels
    3rd set of front pads
    3rd battery

    Very pleased overall, though if I am on my 7th set of pads and 7th battery by 100K, it would be a bit interesting :)
  • I'm a software engineer, so I wrote a program to keep track of everything. Payments, tanks, oil changes, etc. So I can just look at it and see # of tanks, miles/gallon, miles/day, cost/mile, days since oil change, etc.

    I'm only anal about certain things, money & cars. And I'm only so anal about cars because they cost so much. Everything else is a total mess. You should see my room!
  • After having read thru all of the posted messages in this and in other forums since the 1st of the year, I am a bit surprised that there isn't a Chevy Malibu: Problems & Solutions thread, as there is with most of the competing vehicles.

    As an owner of the prior Malibu ('00 LS), I'm no longer interested in logs of experiences with the "old Bu" (since you can't buy one any longer), but only specific problems and recalls, but not even much of that in my case anymore since I'm selling this summer. Most of that stuff would go in "Problems & Solutions" if there was one.

    Since there is a new Bu on the market, I'm much more interested in experiences/problems/accolades with the '04. Folks shopping for a used one would be most interested in a "Problems & Solutions" thread, IMO.

    Most other competing makes have the majority of posts (at least those that I've read) regarding the latest model in the main model forum, such as this one.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    The "Problems & Solutions" discussions are really parts of individual model Owners Clubs. Go to "Browse By Message Board" on the left side of the page to get to the Owners Club board and poke around there to see what I mean.

    If folks here are interested, I can ask KarenS, the host, to fire up a Malibu Owners club. I think it would be a good idea -- who else has thoughts about it?
  • Obviously, it gets a "yes" vote from me.

    The forums seem to be more active over the weekends; let's see what reaction the idea gets.

    Thanks again.
  • OK. Here's one I need help with. '00 Malibu LS, just turned 60K. 60K service was done mid-Dec. This car has had at least one problem (big or small) a month since day one.

    For the last 2 weeks, one time out of three or four, when I come to a stop sign or red light, the car brakes just fine, and then maybe 15 sec. after coming to a complete stop, I feel a very prominent "thump" as if it was coming from the rear of the car (makes a noise too, though not very loud). First time it happened, I thought someone had tapped me from behind. Then I thought it had to do with the rear brakes, but could be transmission.

    Any one had this happen? Thanks.
  • kpugh2kpugh2 Posts: 20
    We have and 04 LS V 6, I track every gallon of gas and keep service records I would like a copy of your program if possible. Thanks for any help.
    Ken or [email protected]
  • In June 2000 we bought our beautiful new blue Malibu LS, with the sunroof, spoiler, & leather package. I posted on the Malibu forum how proud I was of the car - the nicest looking car I had ever owned. Well, almost 4 years later, I have to say it has been nothing more than pure disappointment. The car still looks fantastic when shined up, but mechanically it's a disaster. We've gone through three carburetors (thankfully covered while still under warranty), however, the car however still misses like crazy especially on hills; we had to replace the front rotors & pads at 25,000 miles; the blinkers and flashers don't work unless you toggle around the switches a while; the regulator on the back window just broke (which will cost $350 to repair); most scary is that the car burns a quart of oil every 1000 miles despite only having 59,000 miles on the odomoter (and we change the oil faithfully every 3000 miles). I contrast this to my 99 Honda Accord that I bought new that runs as smooth as silk and everything works like it should - a highly refined vehicle compared to our Malibu. I've always defended the domestic auto makers to the hilt and before I bought the Accord I always bought American, especially GM, but never again. I'm sure there are many who have had good experiences with their Malibus which is great, but I'm not one of them, and it may have turned me away from ever considering a GM or any other true domestic car again. The only problem now is that I have a couple thousand in GM earnings built up with nothing to use it on. Just wondering, does anyone think I could get anywhere by complained to GM or are these problems normal for this car?
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    I always thought the 3.1 litre V6 in the Malibu LS has fuel injection. How did you have carburator problems with a car that has none?
  • You're right. It was the fuel pump, not carburator.
  • I've had most of your issues (except for the fuel pump and the misfiring) and a few more.

    I hope you've tackled the intake manifold gasket issue; you're overdue. And now I'm hearing $800-$1200 to fix it, unless you have the Extended Warranty.

    The blinkers and flashers are covered by a recall (it's the hazard switch on the dash that's the culprit). I read a post in here a few weeks ago (the post was last fall) about the rear defroster wire becoming unattached from the rear window, which requires a new rear window. I hope that's not what you're referring to.

    I'm trying to use my GM Card earnings later this year as well (over $3,000, but limits are imposed) and it's not easy. You might want to read my posts in the last week in the "2004 Malibu vs. Alternatives" forum for ideas. I like the Accord too, but not the EX V-6 price tag of $27K with no rebates. See the forum for more.....

    I think that the only folks that are happy with the "old Malibu" are those that either have low mileage or have an '02/'03, which hasn't hit the "rough spot" quite yet.

    I researched the Impala this morning, and am a bit shocked to see that it too hasn't been nearly a gem. Makes you wonder how the '04 Malibu will be doing in 2 or 3 years.
  • dindakdindak Posts: 6,632
    Impalas are very reliable but they have awful interiors, especially the dash. No way I would buy one over a Malibu.

    Our neighbor's Accord transmission blew completely after a year. New Accord has numerous issues if you read the Edmunds board. Not saying, it a bad car (it's a great car actually), but nothing is trouble free. Much of the time it's luck of the draw.
  • Thanks Chevy about letting me know the recall on the blinkers - I'll go to the dealer on Monday - it hasn't been very safe driving around with blinkers that only work half the time. The gasket issue scares me but doesn't surprise me. You're right about those who are very satisified with their Malibus, because I was one of them for about 12 months.
  • Dindak, yeah, I've read all of the postings re: the '03/'04 Accord. Plus, I could only afford the LX V-6, and then there goes the leather, side curtains, and moonroof.

    Surprisingly, the 3800 in the Impala is also having manifold issues, albeit a bit different from the 3400/3100. And the complaints about the radio in '00/'01s! There are other common issues too, but not as prevalent as these 2.

    I figured out (though I do think GM is a bit mixed up) why a nicely equipped Impala LS stickers for $29K, when a like GP GT2 goes for $27K. It's because the local rebate on the Imp is $4,500, but the GP is only $2,500. So, they're both the same out-the-door. Bizarre way of getting to the same place, though.

    $29K for an Impala is just as ridiculously over-the-top as nearly $26 ($28 for Maxx) is for a Malibu. I'm laughing right now.

    On a side note, I pulled out last April's CR Annual Auto Issue. I'd forgotten that they gave the Malibu a "much worse than average" in the satisfaction area ("Would you buy that car again?"). That'll help sales of the new one a lot (uh, huh). Appears that not many folks that own a "Classic Bu" will be buying the new version, if they've had the old one for over 2 years (that's when it starts to get real ugly). It's a stretch, but I might be one of the few. Looking more unlikely by the day.
  • The GM Card redemption limit on the Impala is $2,250 vs. $1,000 on the Malibu (I didn't expect THAT much).

    So now, I basically have a $29K Impala down to $21,250 (including dealer discount).

    How on earth will they sell many new Malibus with that kind of discounting on a larger (and more prestigious to the uninformed) vehicle?

    This gets stranger the deeper I look......
  • deminindeminin Posts: 214
    Regarding your report of a Thump seeming to come out of the rear after you come to a stop, I had a similiar problem on a Nissan pickup I owned years ago. Mine turned out to be a corroded link in the self adjusting brakes linkage in the rear drum brakes. After you stop, then release the brakes, the springs are supposed to pull the brake linings back away from the drum. However, in my case, one of the links had rusted/corroded, and was holding the lining up against the drum, until I got rolling good again, and then it would release with a noticeable clunk. I would suggest that you pull the rear drums, and look for a buildup of dirt/rust/etc. I fixed mine with a liberal application of penetrating oil..let it set for a 1/2 hour..then hosed it all off good...worked great afterwards for another year until I traded the truck.
    Another possiblity might be a sticking brake cylinder on either rear wheel. Brake fluid attracts moisture, and after several thousand miles, this "water" in the brake fluid can cause pitting and scoring of the brake cylinders walls and pistons. If this happens, you can get the same symptoms..brakes sticking and grabbing and failing to release properly. This problem is usually worse if you live in a more humid climate..deep south, for example. Its a good idea, even though most owners manuals don't say so, to have the brake fluid flushed and replaced every 30 to 50 thousand miles.
  • vcjumpervcjumper Posts: 1,110
    Prestigious Impala? I think thats a bit of a stretch, we are talking bread and butter Chevrolets here. SOme people don't like driving large cars.
  • vc, reread my post, kindly. I specifically said that the uninformed (read: most consumers) would consider the Impala more prestigious than the Bu. It is bigger, but still a manageable size for most.

    deminin: Thanks for the advice. I'm thinking the same. It happened 3 times this morning, and I'm pretty certain it isn't the trannie (and yes, obviously in FL it's humid most of the year). Have to drive a lot this coming week, so if it gets worse, will take it in the following week (and then I can play Hot Button; winning that would solve all of my quandries, now wouldn't it?). What ticks me off about this is that the rear brakes were redone a year ago (13K miles ago). Brakes are one of GMs continual sore spots on most of their vehicles, mine being no exception.
  • Unless you buy a Lexus LS 430, which is outrageously expensive, you are likely to have quite a few big or small problems, no matter what car you buy these days. Too many electronics, too powerful unions, suppliers having to squeeze every cent out of products they deliver to manufacturers, and voila, you've got problems. Of course, some cars have more problems than others. But Chevy has a higher reliability than industry average per JD Power, so it would be unfair to brand the entire make as low quality. I am sorry if you are not satisfied with your vehicle, but the fact is that you are almost as likely to have the same number of problems with Hondas and Toyotas, and you'd pay much more to start with
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836

    You got the first part right. But to say that Toyota and Honda will likely give you the same amount of trouble as a Malibu is either a lie or a misinformed statement. Both Honda and Toyota has better to much better than average reliability in the last eight years. The best the Malibu could do was an average rating. GM likes to quote JD Powers initial quality survey a lot because it paints there car in a positive light. But they neglect to mention long term reliability. That's when there car goes po po.
  • I actually had few problems with my Malibu in the first 18 months or so. Then the stuff started.

    Recent problems with the latest version of Camrys and Accords seem to be the reverse, and the cars get better with age (this info from the Edmunds forums).
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 13,496
    You can't go by what you read on here. The Accord forum in particular seems to be populated largely by members of the Honda cult. Even the problems are actually "features".

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • The Camry forums are much the same.

    However, I did fail to mention Honda's intermittent propensity of tranny problems, which do occur after the intial ownership period.

    Just to be fair.
  • dindakdindak Posts: 6,632
    Difference in problems per hundred cars is not that great. Camcords are about the best but if you factor the premium prices you really should get more!!
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 13,496
    One of the guests on Autoline Detroit today was talking about the "problems per 100 cars" index and said that the Camcords were at 116 while GM was at something like 124. That really is virtually no difference. David E. Davis was saying on that same show that the worst car you can buy today is better than the best car you could buy 10 years ago in terms of defects. Really the quality these days is generally very high.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • the Accord members with. If you look closer in the Accord problems and solutions, you will see people expressing their dissatisfaction with some of the recent Accord problems. Also, just as Malibu owners discuss known failure areas and fixes/costs, so too do Accord owners.

    2001 LX
    112K miles
    2nd set of tires
    3rd set of front pads
    original rears
    recent transmission replacement

    Yes, they are not perfect and the 6th Gen trannies are a serious issue at higher mileages.

    I prefer Hondas road manners and seat firmness over most domestics, but I'm a car guy and research all vehicles.

    Sounds like the General may finally get my attention with some of their vehicles coming down the pike. That's a good thing, competition creates more choice and better vehicles for all.
  • is an engine failure. Some quality - a failed transmission!!! I am yet to hear about a single transmission failure on a Malibu, and I've been reading extensively about Bu on many forums for the past 4-5 years

    It's true that the average quality these days is higher than what it used to be not so long ago

    I simply dispute any statement which makes it sound as if Japanese vehicles (Camcords) are light years ahead of GM (not sure about Ford or DC, hehehe)

    In any case, you are only buying a CHANCE that your Japanese vehicle would be more reliable than a GM one. Out of 100 Camcords, let's say 50 would be better, 30 the same, and 20 worse than an average Chevy in quality. Is it worth several thousand dollars to get a 50/50 chance of getting a vehicle better than an average Chevy? The choice is yours :)
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Posts: 758
    Boy, this import reliability challenge is sure to draw lots of angry responses. Look out guys :)
  • Watch out, because the imports vs. Malibu discussions should be in the other forum, not in this one.

    To wrap up the comparisons issue on my part in this forum, I am also surprised at the number of late-model high mileage Accords out there (guess a big component of Accord sales is from those that drive all day and night, choosing an Accord based on the supposed reliability). Personally, I would probably never keep ANY vehicle beyond 80-100K miles, regardless of brand/model. So, I guess the trannie failures in the Accord are irrelevant to me.

    As I stated earlier, the Malibu is the first GM product that I am unhappy with (actually had a '98 Bu LS which was totalled by an errant 18-wheeler when, fortunately, the car was unoccupied. That car started off even worse than the '00. Problems crept up after only 3-4 months. Bought the '00 since I was convinced that the problems had been fixed. Ha on me.)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    ...please do move this conversation to 2004 Chevrolet Malibu vs. Alternatives. Thanks.
  • Have been a poster in this group since the purchase of my white LS Bu in September of 1999. Am at 37K miles and have only 8 more payments on it. Rotors were placed under warrantly the first year and the alternator this year - being the only two significant repairs since I have had the car.

    My current problem: In October my radiator light came on. Checked the owners manual and then led me to add more coolant which I added to the appropriate level - Dexicool, etc. The light is now coming on again and I need to add more fluid. Should I be concerned? I seem to recall references to the intake manifold problem and this perhaps being a symptom. If it possiblity is - can I any garage diagnois and handle this problem? I have typically been taking my car to the dealership - which frankly I think has been expensive - try over $500 for my alternator in July.

    By the way, I have not yet had my radiator flushed since I bought the car.

    Any thoughts/advice appreciated.

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 13,496
    It certainly sounds like it could be a manifold leak. I don't know what diagnostic is recommended for it - possibly a cooling system pressure test? Is GM offering repairs under any sort of extended/secret warranty?

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • Magnus;
    I have a June '99 LS, 33k Miles on it. Same issue. Had the low coolant light come on a few months ago. Topped up the reservoir and replaced the leaky water pump. I still have a very slow seeping leak from the driver's side front of the engine at the intake manifold gasket. (I cleaned up the side of the block in this area so I could see what was going on. The edge of the gasket looks like a black line between intake manifold and block. Follow the valve cover from left to right and look down the vertical surface on the right for the leak. Mine looks like condensation.) I've put some radiator sealer in the system to slow it down and this seems to be working for now. (I check coolant and oil for cross contamination every week).

    I'm hoping that the sealant will solve the problem or will delay the inevitable until Spring gets here so I can replace the gasket myself. The gasket set is about $50 from the local auto parts store. Getting it done by a shop seems to be between $350 and $800, depending on who you talk to.

    The gasket design on these engines seems to be flimsy. A guy I work with has two GM's with the 3.1 engine. He had both professionally flushed and pressure tested two summers ago. Last winter both started leaking from the front drivers side. He had both replaced by his local mechanic and swears the he will never have a GM flushed and pressure tested again.

    So look for coolant leaks under the car. Passenger side leak is probably a water pump ($23 for a new one locally). Driver's side is likely to be the intake manifold gasket.
  • The Owner's Manual recommends changing coolant at 5 years or 150K miles, whichever comes first. In my case, when the gaskets went last year, the coolant was also replaced, even though mine is now only 4 years old.

    Ironically, my dealer indicated that the gaskets normally go around 5 years or 50K miles, whichever comes first (I'd hit 50). A "fix" was supposedly in place, with a new type of gasket, a month or two after mine was done (the "fix" I think was announced around Sept.) (figures), so once you do it, it should be the last time. I've heard dealer quotes in this forum from anywhere between $500-1,200. I have the Extended Warranty (which has now paid for itself) for another 15K miles, which should last me about a year, so I can't tell ya what my fix cost.

    Don't you all want a Malibu Owner's Club? Remember, Pat (the Host) asked us to reply re: her post asking about that last Friday. If so, kindly say so!
This discussion has been closed.