"That site is where I keep seeing 98s and 99s for the same price as a new 325."
There's a 1998 328iA (auto) with 62k miles in Mobile AL listed for $22,900 on the BMW CPO site. 62k miles is only about 1/3 the "life" of a well-maintained BMW, plus you get the "extended" CPO factory warranty up to 100k included. And you could probably bargain another $400 off the price. That's $5500 less than a new 325 (if you can really find one now for $28k). This car's only one example I found in a 3 minute search. I'm just mentioning this again because I'm a CPO owner who saved a bunch of money on a great car by letting someone else pay for the depreciation. Happy shopping and please let the Board know what happens!
The statistically suspect (read outlier) 0 to 60 times were from Daniel Heraud's review on MS Carpoint. The numbers and link are below. I agree on the majority of published times being in the low 6s for manuals and high 6s or low 7s for autos. I am actually more interested in 60-120 times or 1 mile times from a 60mph rolling start, myself.
a) tests cars with his grandmother behind the wheel b) uses terpentine in lieu of premium gasoline c) tests acceleration while towing an Excursion d) is simply wrong.
My vote is d). He is consistently off (not only with the 330, but other cars as well) by 40-50% from generally accepted and published times. I would have dismissed this as a typo, but looking at the other times, he is consistently off, as if he added 3 seconds to each time.
I'm sure the 60-100 times will be more than adequate, and fune to test!
Just curious and not trying to offend, but why would not want a manual transmission, if you are so concerned about performance numbers? I believe you can now get an M5 reasonably quickly (6 month wait +/- at my dealership) at list price, which would only work out to a few thousand over what the M3 w/automatic will command when it first comes out.
Alternatively, if for some reason you must have an automatic and are comfortable with the size of an M3, have you considered the AMG C32? I have not driven one myself, but I have driven the CLK55 and the C32 is supposedly even quicker. It's also priced at a relatively reasonable $52k.
My baby got rear ended this evening whilst I was stationary in stop and go traffic on the Allston Brighton exit of the Masspike! Its not serious, no injuries, but the bumper sustained some damage. Thank goodness its only plastic and no sheet metal was affected.
Daniel Heraud's reviews on Carpoint are funnier than most sitcoms I see on the air these days. He's not even close on most aspects of the car. It doesn't surprise me that he can't even time a car 0-60 properly.
I agree that a manual transmission is in general more a fit for an acceleration junky such as myself. However, I do a lot "commuting" in addition to "driving". An auto or at least an SMG is a thus a requirement. I also in general like to focus on directing the car's movements (steering + throttle/brakes), as oppose to the powertrain (clutch/shifter). However, I do like the option of selecting my own gears and shift points on occasion. I find this specifically useful when you want strong acceleration under part throttle, or need to "point and shoot" when cruising below the powerband. I also rate the usability of a car, on par with its performance envelope. The question is not only what acceleration, cornering, or braking is possible, but effortless and easily it can be achieved. An analogy is a US F-16 vs a Russian Mig-29 fighter jet. The Mig-29 can actually pull more G's than the F-16. However, the F-16's fly by wire controls let nearly any pilot reach those g-numbers, without the risk of a stall or structural damage. We are of course talking about 9Gs vs 10Gs, which makes even a M3/M5 (.90+) or ZO6 (1.0) look like a land yatch. Now on to cornering and braking. What sort of speeds do you beemer pilots push these things through highway s-curves, long sweepers, and those snake like 2 lanes ? What happens when a a semi appears around a blind corner ?
I agree he consistently gets slower 0-60 times for most cars. He seems to specifically get statistically significant lower times for BMW, Corvette, and Camaro/Firebird. He gets very good times for Volvos for some reason. He gave the C70 a 6.5 0-60, and my car a 6.9. However, I can easily out accelerate my friends C70 from any speed to any speed. He has exhaust, turbo, and chip upgrades. He also torque breaks at launch to to overcome turbo lag, and tends to drive in 1st to make the auto shift at the red line. I think what Dan does is as follows. He will simply put an auto in drive, and floor it with the TC/DSC on, and the transmission's performance mode off (if equiped). I am assuming for manuals he releases the clutch at low RPM and shifts at similar points to a automatic without a performance shift mode. His results reflect these techniques as cars with higher powerbands or tremendous amounts of low-end torque have the poorest results. The high powerband cars never get into the rev range, especially for the all important launch. The high torque cars spin their wheels endlessly, especially the friction challanged FWD ones. The results are further hurt in high torque cars by the DSC/TC braking and retarding fuel/timing. He gets the highest recent cornering numbers for 3 series, at .85G. However, he also gets this number for the Volvo C70. Once again, my GTP (which he rates a lowely .79) out corners my friends C70. Now, the may be the magic of power-on cornering maybe at work here. However, the C70 is FWD drive too. I also doubt Dan is powering through the skidpad, where my friend does power through cornering. FYI, proper powering through corners in a FWD shifts weight to the rear (reducing understeer), and turns forward acceleration into lateral acceleration. The wheels need to turn less for the same G load on the chasis, because they are both pulling and pushing themselves through corner, in addition to having to push less weight at the nose, and have more down force in the rear. Now, you see why I want to get back into RWD, who needs to do all this work just to carve a corner ? I also find this extremely traumatic coming from a Camaro (RWD with 300+ ft/lbs torque and only 3000lbs curb weight), where power in a corner can easily result in death.
I am considering buying a 330i bmw, but i have heard that the upkeep and maintenance is so expensive after the warranty has run out. I also heard that the insurance premium is expensive.If anyone knows the prices and anything about the car would you please let me know. Lisa
Can any of you with 325 wagons tell me if there is much difference in the base stereo vs HK. I see in the MY2002 order guide that the HK upgrade for wagons does not include 2 subwoofers, only 10 upgraded speakers. Is that due to the absence of the rear deck? I have a 2002 on order for a Nov ED pickup and I am skeptical about paying the $600 for the HK.
Here is my take. when doing the 0-60, besides just recording the time, I think these people should also write down when exactly (at what rpm) they shift, for each and every shift, if the car is a manual.
If they want to be thorough, they might even want to test a few more times with the shifting being done at different rpms, and list ALL the results.
This is what I consider a testing, not just putting up raw numbers without letting the readers know how they got to that. This will at least show us why we see a wide range of results from different magazines/car-sites...
...you don't drive numbers, you drive the car. Either it feels quick enough, refined enough, safe enough, nimble enough, etc., or it doesn't. All of the third-party testing in the world won't change the outcome once you have found a car that feels right to you. These debates over statistical performance redefine "academic"...
streetracer: I have a 325iT SP with the manual. I, too, commute everyday through the terrible Chicago rush hour traffic. However, I've been driving a standard for the last 11 years. While the BMW standard is a bit more finicky than my old Honda's, it is a joy to drive, even in traffic. I find that the manual does not detract at all from my ability to handle the car or react to situations. In fact, I find that the need for monitoring forces me to remain much more awake and aware of the status of the car than with an automatic, even the step. Furthermore, I always know what gear the car is in. The BMW engine is so smooth that with the step (on test drives), I would forget what gear I was in, or have to look down to figure it out. With the manual, you just drop your hand on the shifter and you have a tactile reference. As for handling, my wagon regularly and easily doubles on-ramp speeds, hustles around sharp right turns at 35+mph, and left hand turns at 45+ (larger circumference turns). I don't think that I've even truly reached my car's limits. I usually forget to turn off traction and stabilty control and it rarely turns on, even in aggressive driving, meaning that I'm not even close to my car's handling abilities. (it kicks in all too soon when really pushing the car)
Winter tires: Thanks for all your imput on the Conti's. Now on to winter tires. What do ya'll recommend. I've heard the Blizzak's often but Consumer Reports prefers the Artic Alpin's. Any real world comments? Here in Chicago snow tires are a true requirement for only 2-3 weeks a year. Most of the roads are well plowed (although the alleyway behind my house is not).
davidlj3: Great choice! I have the 325iT and absolutely love this car. I don't know why BMW does not offer subwoofers on this car, but I can tell you that the standard stereo has enough bass to shake the car and annoy your neighbors. Furthermore, it's pretty tight and accurate. I did not opt for the HK system but in retrospect I might have. After listening to it in a loaner car, I felt that it had better midrange response and clarity than the standard unit and speakers. As I listen to a lot of jazz and classical, the midrange is more important to me than the bass. Enjoy your car!
tejiah--I'm not sure about the 330i insurance premiums, but my 2001 325Ci premium is even lower than my previous 1999 Honda Accord. If you insure w/ Chubb (http://www.chubb.com), and you have a clean record, then you may qualify for a low rate. They insure "high-end" vehicles, of which 3-series cars rate at something like a grade 15, which is considered to be at the lower end of this "high-end" spectrum. I'm 31 and single, clean record, so my yearly premium is $684.00. I can't respond to the long-term expense of BMW's, though two of my friends own 5-series cars that are 3+ years old. No major problems.
tchoo--I feel your pain. It's been a while since I've posted anything, but about three weeks ago, a certified missing-link backed into my precious 3. I was completely backed out of my parking space at my apartment complex and about to engage 1st, and this bonehead in a beater '93 Ford Escort backs out of his spot w/out looking. I honked the horn, and then heard a loud scrape. I winced in pain and got out of the car, prepared to wreak some verbal havoc (yes, I felt like pummeling the weasel, but I'm no idiot...one cannot enjoy one's 3 from behind bars).
He gets out of his car, and he's standing about a foot shorter than me (being a 6'2" Asian mutant does have it's advantages). He looks like he'd just woken up (disheveled clothes, bedhead) and then his wife gets out of the car (wearing a neckbrace). I'm thinkin', "Great." In a very terse tone of voice I say, "Were you even LOOKING?" He says, "Yeah, I was. Were you?" I roll my eyes and say, "Hmmm. I don't think you were b/c then you would have SEEN MY CAR!" He replies w/, "Maybe you backed out faster to beat me." "You clearly have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Get out your insurance card, driver's license, and all your contact information, NOW," I said. I think the fact that I was wearing my Federal Law Enforcement shirt (former bodyguard for CIA) made it even more awkward for him. His hands were shaking and it took him 5 minutes to find his insurance card. I look at his wife's neck brace suspicsiously, and then she says, "Oh, don't worry. You didn't do this." I say, "What are you telling me this for, lady? I KNOW I didn't do that. Your husband backed into me!"
Long story short, the police wouldn't come out for a fender-bender. We exchanged info. My insurance company estimated the damage at $311. My deductible is $500. His insurance company called me and took a recorded statement. The rep said that he told the same story but said it was my fault. She said, "BUT, you had ownership of the roadway, and secondly, I don't believe him. We'll pay you for the damages plus rental car costs." They cut me a check for $400. I then wiped down the place where he hit me (left rear bumper behind the wheel. No body damage). A lot of his paint scrape just came off. Minimum damage. About three two inch scrapes. Barely noticeable. I'll touch it up and pocket the dough. Not bad. You might consider doing the same. Let me know what happens.
Personally, I like Daniel Heraud the most of all the MSN reviewers. I don't always agree with some of his subjective statements, but the format of the review is really nice (much better than the other two MSN reviewers). Even if his 0-60 times are not what they should be, they are at least included in all of his reviews, and he includes most (if not all) available drive train configurations. To me, 0-60 is fun to look at, just for comparisons sake. Especially when you can see the differences in the available drive trains for a given car. Once you start comparing one car to another, it gets a bit more pointless, because I am not likely to change makes of cars just because I can accelerate a little bit faster. Other aspects of the car are so much more important to me that a second or so to 60 is not going to change the car that I am shopping for.
I agree the "performance" of a car in the real world is a product of the fit between the car, driver, and the road. My original question was what are your (as a group of drivers) impressions on the car's acceleration, cornering, and braking ? I am specifically interested about your impressions while driving on the interstate or country/moutain highways? I am making a purposeful distinction between "highway" and "interstate". I would characterize, and generalize for that matter, interstates as wide, flat, with long straits, sweepers and s-turns. A highway is usually a bit more narrow (less lanes), more off camber, with short straits and corners, the latter being tighter and more twisty. However, such a road is not often as twisty as the mythical two lane mountain blacktop.
Sorry for beating a dead horse, but it really bugs me that a respected auto journalist that people look to for both objective and subjective data can't get a simple 0-60 time correct within 30% accuracy.
As a test, I timed myself in the 330i (Step) 0-60 in the most crude fashion possible: with DSC on, no brake-torquing, and just flooring the throttle in Auto mode on a flat, open surface, I timed myself a half-dozen times. Every time was within about a quarter-second of the other five, and all were about 7 seconds flat. I'm sure if a professional tester, using professional equipment, tested to optimize acceleration, 6.5 is reasonable (and about the average of what I've seen published for the Step). There is NO WAY I could be off by more than a second, and chances of even a half-second deviation (even in my crudest of test methods) are very slim. For Mr. Heraud to be off by 2-3 seconds, presumably with professional equipment, is beyond reason. Particularly when these figures are seen and scrutinized by thousands of readers and transparently expected to be highly accurate.
I'm certainly not trying to defend incorrect information, but perhaps he is in Denver or some other high altitude place, where the air is thin. I don't know. Maybe he is alot better at writing reviews than he is at driving. Maybe his stop watch is broken. Maybe he got some bad gas, or a BMW with a problem... Or maybe he didn't do the test at all and he made the numbers up???? Regardless of why, the way I see it: 1) 0-60 is not that important. 2) 0-60 times are published elsewhere... I doubt that anyone reads his review exclusively and makes a decision based upon it. Even if they do, that does not affect you or me or the real quality of the machine.
I don't disagree at all. As an engineer, I do value numbers and statistics, but I also place more value on the subjectives -- how the senses (mine in particular) are affected. For example, PURELY on paper, comparing a 325 to, say, the new Altima would produce little 325 sales, I would guess. But there's so much more to it than that (the subjectives), which is why people have paid and will continue to pay $7-10k more, and feel they are getting more than their money's worth. I am one of those people. I feel like I'm getting into the "BMW Thing" discussion, so I digress...
I recognize all of these things. But that does not excuse a gross misrepresentation of data in Mr. Heraud's case. If it's me or you doing the tests, fine. But he's making grossly erroneous and supposedly objective data available to the world. Just bugs me, that's all.
Thanx for the help. i performed a search on the site you mentioned. I extended the search to 500 miles. i looked at 323 and 328 models, 1997-1999, manual or auto. here's what i found all prices rounded to nearest thousand
1 1998 at 23,000 1 1999 at 24,000 1 1997 at 25,000 1 1997 at 26,000 1 1998 at 26,000 2 1998 at 27,000 3 1998s at 28,000 1 1998 at 29,000 10 1999s at 28,000 28 199s at 30,000 and above
when you say "if you can findone at 28,000" are the edmunds prices off? edmunds claims that msrp for a 2001 325 with step is 28,500 and i've been informed i should be able to get 1,000 to 1500 below msrp. is it that most vehicles are equipped with many options?
i could not believe how many 1999 323s and 328s were in the mid thirties. what am i missing here?
these proces were what originall scared me from BMW. when i did some more research and found what edmunds printed as MSRP for a 2001, I came back. is edmunds not accurate?
thanx for info from everyone i'll definetly keep you posted
I don't know if you can even use the old altitude excuse. He got good times for the Volvo C70 and its a turbo. A turbo or supercharger is usually more effected by air density (temp/altitude) and composition (humidity). Now, lets get back to you telling me more about your experience with 330 on the road, and making me go lease one! What do guys think of 330 as a daily driver and M3 as an eventual second car ? Too similiar, too expensive ? I was also looking into keeping the GTP and leasing a C5 vette or Ram Air Trans Am. I know, I know, but its hard to break away from the quido life style Maybe keep the GTP for now, and get a Z3 3.0 or M Roadster? Do you think the 2002 M Roadster with SMG/SSG will have higher availability than the M3 coupe/sedan or ragtop ?
My comment about finding a new 325 with "just" Step option referred to availability, not price. As brave1heart already noted, you're probably going to have trouble finding a 325 that doesn't have many other options loaded on. I'll also say again from personal experience that the listed CPO price should be very negotiable. Why not make a few phone calls on the CPOs to see what kind of deals you can make. Then if nothing seems reasonable, order a 2002 and get exactly what you want. Either way, you get the best car!
My insurance went up maybe $200/yr when I went from 2000 Civic EX to 2001 330i. My 6 month premium is $680 or so. My coverage is not quite 1 Mil, but close. I'm a single 28 yr. with clean record.
Mantenence on all luxury cars are expensive, and BMWs are no exception. With labor running $100+/hr. you might want to think about extending it to 7 yrs.
Hi All, I found a '99 323i 4Dr sedan, jet black/sand leather, manual, Am/Fm/CD Player-In Dash, Fold-Down Rear Seats, Power Glass Moonroof, Sport Package, Wood Trim, with 16236 miles.....asking for $26990 in the SF Bay Area. Is this a reasonable deal? Edmunds' TMV priced it at about $28215. How much further can I negotiate down from the asking price for a pre-owned certified? Look forward to everyone's response ASAP...if this is the one, I may pick it up this evening! Thanks!
Personally, I find the 330i too much car for American roads. I can't imagine what it would be like for the M3 owners. I have to maintain a constant vigil to make sure I'm not breaking the speed limit by too much.
Hi All, I found a '99 323i 4Dr sedan, jet black/sand leather, manual, Am/Fm/CD Player-In Dash, Fold-Down Rear Seats, Power Glass Moonroof, Sport Package, Wood Trim, with 16236 miles.....asking for $26990 in the SF Bay Area. Is this a reasonable deal? Edmunds' TMV priced it at about $28215. How much further can I negotiate down from the asking price for a pre-owned certified? Look forward to everyone's response ASAP...if this is the one, I may pick it up this evening! Thanks!
I was hoping someone more eloquent than myself would jump in here, but I'll give it a go...
I have a 330Ci with SP. My normal commute to work is 10 miles of perfectly paved farm road followed by ~30 miles of highway (four lane, relatively light traffic, and in varying states of repair). Most of my non-work driving is on two lane highways and farm roads. Trying to break it down, MY observations follow:
Highway - The car is excellent on nicely paved highway. There is enough grunt for just about anything you would want to do. The ride and ergos are very comfortable. Cruising at 80+ is effortless and the car remains exceptionally stable at speeds well over 100MPH. When the road condition gets worse, the ride can get a little rough. It's never abusive, but it is also not as nice as a non-SP BMW, Acura CL, Passat, or probably just about any other quality car that has lower sporting aspirations.
Farm/mountain roads; This is where my baby shines and the sport-pack comes into it's own. High-speed sweepers are a blast! The car sticks to the road like baby poop sticks to a bunny blanket. Body roll is of no concern in these type of corners. When the turns get tighter, there is a tendancy for the front end to push (understeer) a little, but it can be balanced pretty well with the throttle. In the tighter stuff, body roll becomes more noticable too. On initial turn-in the body does tip, but once the car takes a 'set', it flattens out pretty well. One thing that seems to be fairly unique to S.E.PA roads is their rapid altitude changes. This is kind of hard to explain in words, but it's not uncommon to enter a turn part way up a hill who's apex is right at the crest of the hill and exit is back down at the level at which you entered the turn. The BMW is the first car I've ever driven extensively (I have never owned a real sports-car) that handles this situation very well. Most cars get very light and squirrely at the apex (crest of hill).
"A turbo or supercharger is usually more effected by air density (temp/altitude) and composition (humidity)."
While that's true for S/Cs, it's not true for turbos. Typical OEM turbo engines are affected *less* by altitude than normally aspirated engines. My wife's Passat will allow a bit of boost beyond the nominal 7 psi setting to compensate for altitude. At 11,000 feet it'll pull uphill at 75 MPH with 4 people in it and the A/C on - despite being rated at 150 hp. I've heard that Saab does this, allowing them to make full rated power at anything up to 10,000 ft, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were true for Volvos.
I've noticed that the aftermarket system I run in my M3 gives me the same 100 HP increase at altitude as it does at sea level. I don't crank up the boost to compensate.
My understanding is that both S/C and a turbo perform supercharging (compression of intake air), one is belt driven the other is turbine driven by exhaust gases. I don't see why the turbo would be able to better compress the thinner air than the supercharger. The only thing that I can think of is exhaust gases may travel faster at higher altitude, driving the turbine faster, increasing actual boost, but resulting in the same compression (HP/Torque increase). I do not know if this is true, or what the physics are behind it, maybe less back pressure However, in general things happen slower at lower pressure and temp (high altitude).
My understanding was that all forced induction (turbo and Supercharged) engines lost less of their performance at altitude than a normally aspirated engine would. I doubt that the reviewer is in Denver, but that wasn't really the point anyway. The point was that you know how fast a BMW is, who cares what he says.
You're missing an important part of a turbo system - the need for boost limiting.
Turbos generally have greater flow capacity than the engine can support. Boost from the turbo is limited to safe levels by by-passing some of the exhaust gas through the wastegate (or in the case of the VATN turbo in my car, by directing some of the gases away from the turbine blades).
When the air is less dense, the boost limiting mechanism simply dumps more air onto the turbine blades, allowing the turbo to spin faster and stuff the same mass of air into the engine. A well designed centrifugal compressor is efficent over a wide range of RPM and pressure, so you don't introduce much (if any) extra heat into the intake charge by doing so.
I'd like some advice about purchasing a used 3-series. Here in central Arizona the prices seem high and the selection quite limited, but there seem to be many more cars available for more reasonable prices in the Los Angeles area. Now for the advice: Has anyone bought a car in CA and brought it into AZ, and so knows how the sales tax is handled? And in the LA area it appears that McKenna's in Norwalk is the most active dealer. Anyone with experience at that dealership? Do they negotiate or are they a "no-dicker" (take it or leave it, that is) dealership?
I listened to the HK stereo in a 2001 330i. I assume it is the same as you would get in a 325i. It sounded excellent. I listened to the Bose stereo in a 2002 C230K, a 2002 Acura TL and the Monsoon stereo in a Passat GLX and the Harmon Kardon upgrade in the BMW was much more realistic sounding and had adequate bass. The standard BMW stereo was barely adequate at best. I rate the Mercedes and Acura Bose systems as "EXTREMELY POOR" since they were actually muddy and had laughable amounts of bass. I rate the VW Monsoon as just adequate since it was pretty clear, just did not have quite enough power or bass. I could "live with" the Monsoon if I were to get a Passat GLX, but I would actually be completely happy with the sound quality of the Harmon Kardon setup in a BMW 3 series.
Thanks for the info on the stereo. I like great sounding music but I took a test drive in a non HK sedan then an overnight test drive in one with HK. I honestly was very satisfied with the base stereo. I haven't listened to them in the wagon though. I will probably get the base and be perfectly happy.
Now, that is exactly the sort of thing I want to hear all about. Thanks for the vicarious experiences. Anyone else have any guilty pleasures to confess about being a beemer pilot ? I know how easy it is to go way above the speed limit, in any modern performance car. I routinely slice through a twisty 2 lane that is posted at 50 in the high 80s. I have almost every turn down just right, could push more but who wants to end up in the weeds or worse ? I will have to see what the comfortable limits are in the 330. The piece of road is JFK parkway through Livingston and Short Hills, NJ for any of those in the area. I also come through the big s-curve on I-80 in Paterson in 90s, and the one east bound before the US 23 intersection in the low triple digits. The turns are tricky because they have sharp and changing camber, with some rough surfaces. I know I-80 becomes very interesting in eastern PA too. You are guys have those black state troopers cars though, right? I know they can be hard to spot on a warm summer's night at twice the posted 65MPH limit. I remember one time; I was coming through the turn after exist 39 on I-80 in NJ at 128MPH (electronic limit). An old guy in a caprice decided to pull in front of me. I came down to 75MPH in flash, with a little side to side motion (brake steer???). I thought it was COP, luckily it wasn't. The old guy didn't even notice my antics at his 6 o'clock. I always could have used the shoulder if I wasn't able to brake.
davilj3, I kind of agree with you since "barely adequate" for me is a somewhat high standard. That means I could live with the base BMW system, but am not impressed in the least, where as the Bose systems in the Acura TL and Mercedes C230K would be completely unacceptable to me as they come from the factory. If I get a TL, I know I will need to get some front speaker replacements and likely a sealed subwoofer and amp. The C230K is completely unworkable because of a system that cannot be modified at all. I would need to completly gut the system and start over and I am not going to do that with a leased car. The Passat's Monsoon system is just barely good enough that I would not bother with the expense to upgrade it any further, but it could be better. However, I was completely satisfied with the sound quality of the Harmon Kardon BMW system.
Ok that makes sense, on the waste gate and overboost. However, a drastic change in altitude would eventually overcome even the higher boost potential of turbo. I know the point about Denver being the test site, was to illustrate the variability and often subjectiveness of third party data. However, the turbo discussion has become an interesting side conversation. You could also argue that the thinner air would increase turbo lag, due to longer time to get to RPM when not under boost, and less exhaust flow at low RPM. However, all force induction cars are fickle beasts. Do you find the variable valve timing and high compression in the beemer has similair traits ? Do you see hugh differences on a hot/wet vs cold/dry day, or when using different octanes. I have had the Buick Regal GS, my parents car, which has the same S/C engine with a boost gauge, put out at most 8.5psi on a humid, but get 11.4 PSI on a cold winter night. An interesting note is factory rating if 5 to 7 PSI. The test grounds for GM are in Phoneix and Detroit, where one can assume the rating was done. I drive in NJ/NY area. I wonder if your geography relative to the manufacturer or auto press is inversely proportational to the coorelation of your experience with their test results ?
Funny you should mention it, but...check posts 8472 & 8475. jbreez1 and I have been having an exchange about prices of CPOs. Sounds like you found a great car at a good price. Also sounds like you're anxious to buy, so you won't be able to deal much-- because the "secret" of negotiating is knowing you can (and will) walk away if you can't get your price. Let us know what you decide.
Thanks, bmwagonmaster for the feedback. I'm not that desperate to buy and I'm definately ready to negotiate. But what I like to know is HOW MUCH can I negotiate down from their asking price $26990? Sorry but I have no experience in buying and negotiating for a preowned car. Look forward to your reponse!
"There's a 1998 328iA (auto) with 62k miles in Mobile AL listed for $22,900 on the BMW CPO site. 62k miles is only about 1/3 the "life" of a well-maintained BMW, plus you get the "extended" CPO factory warranty up to 100k included. And you could probably bargain another $400 off the price."
Is $400 all you would be able to negotiate off the price? Is that the norm for a used car? What is that like under 2%?
I'm curious to know if thats all you could possibly get off.
In my opinion, the amount that you can "get off" any car's price is the amount you're willing to pay! And I don't mean for that to sound like I'm insulting your intelligence. Negotiating a CPO price is not an exact science, it's simple supply/demand (with timing and luck thrown in). The dealer's got the car and "their" price. If you want it enough (or the salesperson makes you think you do), you'll pay their price. If you're not in a rush and can find other cars you like as much, then you give them "your" price. If they want the sale bad enough (or you make the salesperson think they do), you'll pay your price. Just for reference, I paid $600 less than the asking price for my 2000 CPO wagon, which was already $5k off MSRP. I'm no great dealing whiz (brave says I'm a "geek," which is true-- and that's why I'm not suing him this time); I just used the plan noted above and got a great car at a great price. Timing and luck...(;>}
Are you referring to MSRP for the 2000 model or for the current model at the time of purchase? I'm curious because I don't have much historical/relevant info for Canadian MSRP.
I would expect being able to knock off about 10% off the asking price. Does anyone think that's reasonable/not enough?
I'd hardly classify all turbo cars as fickle. The two factory systems I've driven lately (VW and Saab) have been completely transparent. I live at 5000 ft, and there's no discernable lag. The VW is gutless below 1500 RPM, but that's cause there isn't enough exhaust gas to do anything. There's been a ton of work done on turbine housings and blades, as a result most modern systems spool up quickly. Even the Subie WRX, which has a fair amount of lag by modern standards seemed (from the passenger seat) to be infinitely better than the '85 turbo T-bird I used to own. The aftermarket setup in my Bimmer has no lag above 3000 RPM.
Yep, if you go high enough power falls off, but you're still waaay ahead of where a NA car would be.
That Regal you drove was a mechanical S/C using one of Eaton's constant volume pumps, correct? So once again, you're looking at a system that can't compensate for changes in air density the way a turbo can.
MSRP for the 2000 model (the dealer even had the original window-sticker so I knew the exact MSRP "new" price). As for 10% off, why not 20% or 30%? Like I said, you can OFFER anything. But will the dealer SELL it for that price? And will you walk away if they don't? Timing and luck...Also remember we're talking about BMWs here, not Saturns. To use a cliche: You get what you pay for.
I hit one of those pot holes that lead to China if you fall in them with my '01 325i SP. Rim is fine (no dent) but the front driver's side ContiSport tire has a cut (a piece of rubber that hangs like a banana peal) 1/6 inch deep and about 3/4 inch long next to the rim - right where the sidewalls are thickest. I am thinking of replacing the tire and rim with the full-size spare that's in the trunk. My question is whether it would be worth repairing the damaged tire (if possible at all). My guess is that the thickness of the sidewalls is crucially important for cornering stability and if pushed hard, the tire may blow up right where it's weakened. Please advice.
I think for a 99 323i in California, that is a very good price if the car comes from a good home and clean title. I live in So,California. I dont think you could find one with those options at that price with leather! Just go for it. Dan
Thanks 'master for the good advice! I know one can't go by exact numbers and as they say "what's true for one is not true for all", but I just wanted to get a general idea of how other CPO buyers fared. You've given me enough impetus to do some negotiating.
dantlo - that $26,990 is without leather. But I guess it's still a pretty good deal, huh?
Comments
There's a 1998 328iA (auto) with 62k miles in Mobile AL listed for $22,900 on the BMW CPO site.
62k miles is only about 1/3 the "life" of a well-maintained BMW, plus you get the "extended" CPO factory warranty up to 100k included. And you could probably bargain another $400 off the price. That's $5500 less than a new 325 (if you can really find one now for $28k). This car's only one example I found in a 3 minute search. I'm just mentioning this again because I'm a CPO owner who saved a bunch of money on a great car by letting someone else pay for the depreciation. Happy shopping and please let the Board know what happens!
http://carpoint.msn.com/Vip/Heraud/BMW/3-Series/2001S.asp
3-Series : 5-speed automatic
Engine: 3.0-liter L6, 24 valve
Horsepower: 225 @ 5900
Torque: 214 @ 3500
Acceleration:
0-60 mph in 9.0 sec.
1/4-mile in 16.8 sec.
Top Speed: 128 mph
Braking: 60-0 mph in 124 ft.
Road Holding: 0.85 g.
3-Series : 5-speed manual
Engine: 3.0-liter L6, 24 valve
Horsepower: 225 @ 5900
Torque: 214 @ 3500
Acceleration:
0-60 mph in 8.5 sec.
1/4-mile in 16.4 sec.
Top Speed: 128 mph
Braking: 60-0 mph in 131 ft.
Road Holding: 0.85 g.
a) tests cars with his grandmother behind the wheel
b) uses terpentine in lieu of premium gasoline
c) tests acceleration while towing an Excursion
d) is simply wrong.
My vote is d). He is consistently off (not only with the 330, but other cars as well) by 40-50% from generally accepted and published times. I would have dismissed this as a typo, but looking at the other times, he is consistently off, as if he added 3 seconds to each time.
I'm sure the 60-100 times will be more than adequate, and fune to test!
Alternatively, if for some reason you must have an automatic and are comfortable with the size of an M3, have you considered the AMG C32? I have not driven one myself, but I have driven the CLK55 and the C32 is supposedly even quicker. It's also priced at a relatively reasonable $52k.
Lisa
If they want to be thorough, they might even want to test a few more times with the shifting being done at different rpms, and list ALL the results.
This is what I consider a testing, not just putting up raw numbers without letting the readers know how they got to that. This will at least show us why we see a wide range of results from different magazines/car-sites...
Winter tires: Thanks for all your imput on the Conti's. Now on to winter tires. What do ya'll recommend. I've heard the Blizzak's often but Consumer Reports prefers the Artic Alpin's. Any real world comments? Here in Chicago snow tires are a true requirement for only 2-3 weeks a year. Most of the roads are well plowed (although the alleyway behind my house is not).
davidlj3: Great choice! I have the 325iT and absolutely love this car. I don't know why BMW does not offer subwoofers on this car, but I can tell you that the standard stereo has enough bass to shake the car and annoy your neighbors. Furthermore, it's pretty tight and accurate. I did not opt for the HK system but in retrospect I might have. After listening to it in a loaner car, I felt that it had better midrange response and clarity than the standard unit and speakers. As I listen to a lot of jazz and classical, the midrange is more important to me than the bass. Enjoy your car!
tchoo--I feel your pain. It's been a while since I've posted anything, but about three weeks ago, a certified missing-link backed into my precious 3. I was completely backed out of my parking space at my apartment complex and about to engage 1st, and this bonehead in a beater '93 Ford Escort backs out of his spot w/out looking. I honked the horn, and then heard a loud scrape. I winced in pain and got out of the car, prepared to wreak some verbal havoc (yes, I felt like pummeling the weasel, but I'm no idiot...one cannot enjoy one's 3 from behind bars).
He gets out of his car, and he's standing about a foot shorter than me (being a 6'2" Asian mutant does have it's advantages). He looks like he'd just woken up (disheveled clothes, bedhead) and then his wife gets out of the car (wearing a neckbrace). I'm thinkin', "Great." In a very terse tone of voice I say, "Were you even LOOKING?" He says, "Yeah, I was. Were you?" I roll my eyes and say, "Hmmm. I don't think you were b/c then you would have SEEN MY CAR!" He replies w/, "Maybe you backed out faster to beat me." "You clearly have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Get out your insurance card, driver's license, and all your contact information, NOW," I said. I think the fact that I was wearing my Federal Law Enforcement shirt (former bodyguard for CIA) made it even more awkward for him. His hands were shaking and it took him 5 minutes to find his insurance card. I look at his wife's neck brace suspicsiously, and then she says, "Oh, don't worry. You didn't do this." I say, "What are you telling me this for, lady? I KNOW I didn't do that. Your husband backed into me!"
Long story short, the police wouldn't come out for a fender-bender. We exchanged info. My insurance company estimated the damage at $311. My deductible is $500. His insurance company called me and took a recorded statement. The rep said that he told the same story but said it was my fault. She said, "BUT, you had ownership of the roadway, and secondly, I don't believe him. We'll pay you for the damages plus rental car costs." They cut me a check for $400. I then wiped down the place where he hit me (left rear bumper behind the wheel. No body damage). A lot of his paint scrape just came off. Minimum damage. About three two inch scrapes. Barely noticeable. I'll touch it up and pocket the dough. Not bad. You might consider doing the same.
Let me know what happens.
To me, 0-60 is fun to look at, just for comparisons sake. Especially when you can see the differences in the available drive trains for a given car. Once you start comparing one car to another, it gets a bit more pointless, because I am not likely to change makes of cars just because I can accelerate a little bit faster. Other aspects of the car are so much more important to me that a second or so to 60 is not going to change the car that I am shopping for.
As a test, I timed myself in the 330i (Step) 0-60 in the most crude fashion possible: with DSC on, no brake-torquing, and just flooring the throttle in Auto mode on a flat, open surface, I timed myself a half-dozen times. Every time was within about a quarter-second of the other five, and all were about 7 seconds flat. I'm sure if a professional tester, using professional equipment, tested to optimize acceleration, 6.5 is reasonable (and about the average of what I've seen published for the Step). There is NO WAY I could be off by more than a second, and chances of even a half-second deviation (even in my crudest of test methods) are very slim. For Mr. Heraud to be off by 2-3 seconds, presumably with professional equipment, is beyond reason. Particularly when these figures are seen and scrutinized by thousands of readers and transparently expected to be highly accurate.
Regardless of why, the way I see it:
1) 0-60 is not that important.
2) 0-60 times are published elsewhere... I doubt that anyone reads his review exclusively and makes a decision based upon it. Even if they do, that does not affect you or me or the real quality of the machine.
I recognize all of these things. But that does not excuse a gross misrepresentation of data in Mr. Heraud's case. If it's me or you doing the tests, fine. But he's making grossly erroneous and supposedly objective data available to the world. Just bugs me, that's all.
Thanx for the help. i performed a search on the site you mentioned. I extended the search to 500 miles. i looked at 323 and 328 models, 1997-1999, manual or auto. here's what i found
all prices rounded to nearest thousand
1 1998 at 23,000
1 1999 at 24,000
1 1997 at 25,000
1 1997 at 26,000
1 1998 at 26,000
2 1998 at 27,000
3 1998s at 28,000
1 1998 at 29,000
10 1999s at 28,000
28 199s at 30,000 and above
when you say "if you can findone at 28,000" are the edmunds prices off? edmunds claims that msrp for a 2001 325 with step is 28,500 and i've been informed i should be able to get 1,000 to 1500 below msrp. is it that most vehicles are equipped with many options?
i could not believe how many 1999 323s and 328s were in the mid thirties. what am i missing here?
these proces were what originall scared me from BMW. when i did some more research and found what edmunds printed as MSRP for a 2001, I came back. is edmunds not accurate?
thanx for info from everyone
i'll definetly keep you posted
joe
Joe
Mantenence on all luxury cars are expensive, and BMWs are no exception. With labor running $100+/hr. you might want to think about extending it to 7 yrs.
I found a '99 323i 4Dr sedan, jet black/sand leather, manual, Am/Fm/CD Player-In Dash, Fold-Down Rear Seats, Power Glass Moonroof, Sport Package, Wood Trim, with 16236 miles.....asking for $26990 in the SF Bay Area. Is this a reasonable deal? Edmunds' TMV priced it at about $28215. How much further can I negotiate down from the asking price for a pre-owned certified? Look forward to everyone's response ASAP...if this is the one, I may pick it up this evening!
Thanks!
I found a '99 323i 4Dr sedan, jet black/sand leather, manual, Am/Fm/CD Player-In Dash, Fold-Down Rear Seats, Power Glass Moonroof, Sport Package, Wood Trim, with 16236 miles.....asking for $26990 in the SF Bay Area. Is this a reasonable deal? Edmunds' TMV priced it at about $28215. How much further can I negotiate down from the asking price for a pre-owned certified? Look forward to everyone's response ASAP...if this is the one, I may pick it up this evening!
Thanks!
I have a 330Ci with SP. My normal commute to work is 10 miles of perfectly paved farm road followed by ~30 miles of highway (four lane, relatively light traffic, and in varying states of repair). Most of my non-work driving is on two lane highways and farm roads. Trying to break it down, MY observations follow:
Highway - The car is excellent on nicely paved highway. There is enough grunt for just about anything you would want to do. The ride and ergos are very comfortable. Cruising at 80+ is effortless and the car remains exceptionally stable at speeds well over 100MPH. When the road condition gets worse, the ride can get a little rough. It's never abusive, but it is also not as nice as a non-SP BMW, Acura CL, Passat, or probably just about any other quality car that has lower sporting aspirations.
Farm/mountain roads; This is where my baby shines and the sport-pack comes into it's own. High-speed sweepers are a blast! The car sticks to the road like baby poop sticks to a bunny blanket. Body roll is of no concern in these type of corners. When the turns get tighter, there is a tendancy for the front end to push (understeer) a little, but it can be balanced pretty well with the throttle. In the tighter stuff, body roll becomes more noticable too. On initial turn-in the body does tip, but once the car takes a 'set', it flattens out pretty well. One thing that seems to be fairly unique to S.E.PA roads is their rapid altitude changes. This is kind of hard to explain in words, but it's not uncommon to enter a turn part way up a hill who's apex is right at the crest of the hill and exit is back down at the level at which you entered the turn. The BMW is the first car I've ever driven extensively (I have never owned a real sports-car) that handles this situation very well. Most cars get very light and squirrely at the apex (crest of hill).
Hope this was somewhat helpful...
While that's true for S/Cs, it's not true for turbos. Typical OEM turbo engines are affected *less* by altitude than normally aspirated engines. My wife's Passat will allow a bit of boost beyond the nominal 7 psi setting to compensate for altitude. At 11,000 feet it'll pull uphill at 75 MPH with 4 people in it and the A/C on - despite being rated at 150 hp. I've heard that Saab does this, allowing them to make full rated power at anything up to 10,000 ft, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were true for Volvos.
I've noticed that the aftermarket system I run in my M3 gives me the same 100 HP increase at altitude as it does at sea level. I don't crank up the boost to compensate.
The point was that you know how fast a BMW is, who cares what he says.
Turbos generally have greater flow capacity than the engine can support. Boost from the turbo is limited to safe levels by by-passing some of the exhaust gas through the wastegate (or in the case of the VATN turbo in my car, by directing some of the gases away from the turbine blades).
When the air is less dense, the boost limiting mechanism simply dumps more air onto the turbine blades, allowing the turbo to spin faster and stuff the same mass of air into the engine. A well designed centrifugal compressor is efficent over a wide range of RPM and pressure, so you don't introduce much (if any) extra heat into the intake charge by doing so.
Thanks!
It sounded excellent.
I listened to the Bose stereo in a 2002 C230K, a 2002 Acura TL and the Monsoon stereo in a Passat GLX and the Harmon Kardon upgrade in the BMW was much more realistic sounding and had adequate bass. The standard BMW stereo was barely adequate at best.
I rate the Mercedes and Acura Bose systems as "EXTREMELY POOR" since they were actually muddy and had laughable amounts of bass.
I rate the VW Monsoon as just adequate since it was pretty clear, just did not have quite enough power or bass. I could "live with" the Monsoon if I were to get a Passat GLX, but I would actually be completely happy with the sound quality of the Harmon Kardon setup in a BMW 3 series.
If I get a TL, I know I will need to get some front speaker replacements and likely a sealed subwoofer and amp.
The C230K is completely unworkable because of a system that cannot be modified at all. I would need to completly gut the system and start over and I am not going to do that with a leased car.
The Passat's Monsoon system is just barely good enough that I would not bother with the expense to upgrade it any further, but it could be better.
However, I was completely satisfied with the sound quality of the Harmon Kardon BMW system.
62k miles is only about 1/3 the "life" of a well-maintained BMW, plus you get the "extended" CPO factory warranty up to 100k included. And you could probably bargain another $400 off the price."
Is $400 all you would be able to negotiate off the price? Is that the norm for a used car? What is that like under 2%?
I'm curious to know if thats all you could possibly get off.
I would expect being able to knock off about 10% off the asking price. Does anyone think that's reasonable/not enough?
Yep, if you go high enough power falls off, but you're still waaay ahead of where a NA car would be.
That Regal you drove was a mechanical S/C using one of Eaton's constant volume pumps, correct? So once again, you're looking at a system that can't compensate for changes in air density the way a turbo can.
Dan
dantlo - that $26,990 is without leather. But I guess it's still a pretty good deal, huh?