By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
The car mags will usually use brake torquing and manual mode (steptronic) to get an auto number for beemers. However, this just doesn't work for the US cars, so they don't use it (C&D says they try both and uses what gets the best number). That is also the reason C&D gets 6.5 for the 330 auto, and BMW says 7.0. BMW doesn't want you doing nasty things to your new car, especially if it is under warranty. They also don't want the average buyrt who may be a weekend enthusiast yelling at them for saying 6.5, when their run is 7.0 or 7.5.
The US manufactures usually focus on low end torque and wide gear ratios. You may not do as good off the line than cars with similar horsepower, but you will be quick right off idle from any speed to any speed. You also don't get as much out of a high RPM launch, as compared to an M3 or S2000. The US cars will usually have the same if not more torque down low than up high, and the amount of torque will usually mean endless wheel spin if you launch above 1000 or 2000 RPM.
That is why a Camaro SS with 335 HP and 345 ft/lbs of torque and similar weight/drag is actually a little slower 0-60 than an M3 with 333HP and 250 ft/lbs. The car car is geared much higher and its powerband is also broader. The powerband is also one the reason it uses a 5.7L V8 rather than a 3.2 I6, in addition to no the General (GM/Chevy) not being into VVT yet. The result is you can just push down on the pedal and it will snap your neck back.
The bottom line beemers are sniper rifles and US cars are mostly machine guns. You can usually shoot farther, and straighter with the rifle, but you need to get in the right position and be a good shot. The machine gun you can just point and pull the trigger on, any fool can do it.
I think this is why guys who street race or go to the drag stip don't get the beemer thing, in terms of performance. They just don't encounter the level of driver to show them what the car can do, and may not even be up to the skill level themselves.
I think this also why there is a market for something like the Mercedes AMG cars. You could almost mistake it for a suped up American Street brute like the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP or last generation Monte Carlo SS.
A big heavy low wide coup with an automatic a giant V8 or big blown V6. You just put the pedal down and go, it doesn't do any better even with brake torquing or using manual mode (according to C&D M3 vs AMG55 article).
Currently running Yokohamo AVS, best performing tire I've had in over 15 years, although there aren't that many good options for 205/60/15.
dave330i, I've autocrossed with my car one time and did not notice any tire wear on the Conti's. On the track, I definately did notice wear (on the outside of fronts and rears). I suspect the slower speeds, along with only one lap at a time, in auotcross keep tire temp down and therefore decrease amount of wear. By the way, I think the Conti's are wonderful tires for grip, although now with about 8,000 miles on them I do get a little more squeal in very hard corners. Make sure to increase the pressure to about 42 pounds prior to your runs.
Tires, I have 225/50 16's on my SP 323. I love the looks of the 17 inch wheels and tires, but I'm also glad I have a bit more sidewall to absorb the bad bumps. I was planning to go to a 17 inch when I replaced tires but I think I'll stay with 16 inch z rated for summer and switch to snows in the winter. A questins for those planning to change over to snow tires and buy new wheels - will you pay for aluminum wheels or just go with steel wheels and hub caps?
That's a near-peak torque band over 3000 RPM wide, starting at a low 1500 RPMs.
I find the 330xi to enjoy excellent off-the-line acceleration -- at least by my standards, which are probably substantially different from the expectations of someone whose handle is "Streetracer". It also displays impressive 60-80 MPH highway acceleration. In this vein, I would point out that Motor Trend timed the AWD 330xi (equipped with a manual transmission) at 5.8 seconds in the 0-60, while Motor Week timed it at 6.2 seconds in the 0-60, and at 14.7 seconds in the 1/4 mile with a terminal velocity of 96 MPH.
I think it would be a mistake to take the 330xi to SS or Trans Am comparison too far, as it really is an apples-to-oranges situation. Nevertheless, I am thrilled with my gray ghost's performance, and having just driven a Camaro for a few days, I thought I'd share some impressions.
As a final aside, I would point out that I tend to think of any car having 200 HP or more as being a powerful vehicle. As a consequence, I am somewhat floored by your characterization of the base Camaro as possessing "relatively low power". Again, I guess that is a revelation into the expectations of a fellow whose handle is "Street Racer".
Anyway, thanks a lot for your insights. I am enjoying this exchange.
Maybe a 330i would be sufficiently exotic to qualify as my weekend car (trying to justify getting one now). However, I would be driving the auto, so am still now sure, would love to rent one !
I would characterized the base Camaro as having relatively low horsepower (or to be more precise a shallower and shorter torque curve), as compared to other US performance cars, as oppose cars in general.
I would agree in general 200HP is the magic number today to be considered a performance car. However, the wide gear ratios used by US manufacturers usually require considerably broader and deeper torque curves, and often as a result horsepower, to get similar acceleration.
I currently drive a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, for example, which has 240 peak horsepower at 5200 RPM, and 280 ft/lbs at 3200 RPM.
However, the car has 85% of its torque off idle, or 1000RPM. The torque curve is virtually flat at nearly 280 ft/lbs from 2000RPM to 5000RPM. The car still has 86 percent of peak torque (or 243 ft/lbs) at the power peak. The torque also gradually falls off after that until about 5800 RPM.
I am curious about the torque curve on the BMW 3.0 engine. I was under the impression the curve was more peaky, than the one you described. I specifically thought the car's torque did not really show up until 3500 RPM, was very strong to 4500 RPM, and then very gradually let up to the power peak. I basically thought it had a broad torque curve but it didn't really start until 3500 RPM and then was relatively flat until 5900 RPM. Maybe I am thinking of the days before double VANOS ?
Does any one have a dyno for me to look at, being the junior gearhead that I am ?
streetracer: check out dinanbmw.com under freeflow exhaust. They have a graph of stock hp & torque.
Specific name, phone website would be appreciated.
Guru - actually I have a few technical questions about suspension terminology and components. But as the least knowledgable person on here it might be best if I sent you an email as it is probably redundant material for most folks in the thread.
What are some of the better tires you've come across? What were the pros and cons of the particular brand?
I'll be replacing mine in the next couple of months, and would like some input. I live near SF, CA, so snow is no issue, and rain isn't much of an issue either.
Bridgestone S-03 Pole Positions
Michelin Pilots MMX
Yokohama AVS Sports and Intermediates
Dunlop SP9000
Also, check out the wheel/tire forum at bimmer.org
http://forums.roadfly.com/bmw/wheels/
And BTW, streetracer - I was wondering why a hard-core car enthusiast like you is so insistent on driving an auto? I'm thinking that if you know so much technical data and especially if you like to drive aggressively, you'd know the benefits of a manual transmission?!?
thanx
Having said this, after reading everything I could I chose the RE730s. They are not quite in the top performance category with Pilot Sports and SO-2/3s but they are very close, are somewhat cheaper and last longer than the best performing tires. They have great wet and dry traction, good responsiveness and are very predictable. The knock on these tires from those who really push their cars at the track and autocrossing is that they have relatively soft sidewalls. From what I can see, this is true but doesn't matter much for typical aggressive non-track driving. It affects the responsiveness a bit, but that's all. If I took my car to the track and autocrossed etc., I might look elsewhere, but for street use, this is a very good tire. Again, check out the "high performance tire" forum for much good info.
living in phx so that matters alot.
thx,
I was also curious if anyone has seen one of those acceleration charts, i.e. 20-40, 40-60, 80-100. I would specifically be interested in a chart based on acceleration off idle in cruising gear (4th or 5th). The tester can down shift, or let the auto do it, but it has to be after the clock starts.
http://www.dinanbmw.com/html/330_e46/330_e46_ex_lg.gif
It has stock and modified hp & torque curves.
http://www.ecisbmw.com/images/Dyno/dyno_sheets/330DYNO1.JPG
And speaking of ECIS, Guru, do you know how far along they are with resolving that CAI hissing problem? I'd get the ECIS CAI if it wasn't for that off-idle hissing.
streetracer - can you really drive a manual? If you could, you'd probably know that especially point-and shoot is best accomplished when you have complete control over the transmission. SMG's are true manuals, just different input controls. It will be a few years before they are offered on the 3-series and I'm hearing they are a 4+ grand option on the M3.
The curve looks like it really comes on at about 3000 and is strongest to 5000. with a bit of a two peaks and one valley in the middle.
What have you found the best rpm range to shift up???
Still trying to get use to the range though I am still in the break in period. 800 km, just got it on Monday.
Anyone having problems with ASC+T?? I found that while having a little fun today that it was kicking in the middle of corners.
One last thing, I find the steering to be very light, too light, I thought post June production had the old steering????
Anyone having problems with ASC+T?? I found that while having a little fun today that it was kicking in the middle of corners. ==> As I wrote today, if the DSC kicks in, you are definitely pushing the car too hard and most likely you tried to turn in too fast instead of finding the apex through the corner. Another common reason for the DSC to kick in is if you hit a bump.
One last thing, I find the steering to be very light, too light, I thought post June production had the old steering???? ==> Hmmmm, not quite - the post-June steering is lighter than the retrofitted steering, which in turn is lighter than the original heavy steering.
1. The 330 is a better performance car than the 325. Period. It is 150-200 lbs heavier than the 325 but it has bigger brakes and it stops just as fast. Skidpad goes to the 325 SP (marginally better) but the difference in acceleration is significant, especially below 3K RPM's. As much as I like spirited driving, however, I could not justify the difference in price for otherwise identical cars. For the options that I was interested in, the difference in price was over 6 grand, although for other owners it may be closer to 4, depending on how you want the car equipped. Also, there is a limit to usable power on public roads, even if all you do is spirited driving.
2. I shift gears by the time you are done blinking when I need all the power. You'd have to trust me on this one. I keep the RPM's above 3,500 because the 325's sweet spot is between 3,500 and 5,200 RPM's. You correctly noticed that the torque curve has a double top but you may not have noticed that the 325's torque at 5,000 RPM's is nearly as high as the peak torque level at 3,500 RPM's. So basically, this is your sweet spot and ideally, I like to keep the 325's RPM's between 3,500 and 5,200 when I need to squeeze all the juice out of it. Now, I'd like to know more about how horsepower plays out the acceleration numers. Is torque the only thing that matters for acceleration? Does 175 ft/lb of torque give you the same acceleration regardless of whether the engine is delivering 130 or 170 HP at that point?
I was talking about shifting above the power
(225HP at 5900RPM) peak not torque peak. My understanding is that what matter is torque, but HP lets you stay in lower gears longer (torque is still available at higher RPM and thus speed in a given gear). I think after your power peak though you usually giving up more torque at the wheels, than you gaining by gearing.
I generally (during this break in) shift from 1st to 2nd at around 3500-4000 rpm and between the rest around 4200-4500. One mistake took it to 5000 for a second.
Let us know if you have any other questions.
Kenny
*********************************Original letter ==>
I am seriously considering the CAI for my '01 325i. I have a couple of
questions:
1. The HP/torque chart on your website only shows the gains for the 330. Do
you have a similar chart for the 325?
2. I heard that ECIS is currently working to eliminate or reduce the hissing
noise that the CAI causes at light throttle (a lot of BMW owners have been
complainig about this). Is this true and if it is, how far into the
resolution are you?
Thank you in advance for you help.