BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

brave1heart

One of those new 180-HP Jetta 1.8T caught up with me yesterday and we drove together for about 100 miles. From 50 or so to about 100 they are extremely close (both manual tranny). They run dead even till you approach triple-digits, after which the 325i has a slight advantage. It's very consistent with C&D's acceleration times:
325i 1.8T
0-60 7.0 7.2
0-100 19.9 20.1
Based on their test numbers above, the two cars would be dead even from 60 to 100. In triple-digits, the 325i slowly pulls away. I find these numbers very interesting because on paper, the 1.8T should have an advantage over the 325i. Its power-to-weight is 16.9 lbs/hp compared to the 325i's 17.7 lbs/hp. Peak torque is nearly identical (175 vs. 174 peak BMW/Jetta) but the 1.8T's torque curve must be better with peak torque running all the way from 1,950 to 5,000 RPM's. So OK, if the power-to-weight ratio and torque advantage go to the Jetta, why is the 325i marginally faster? I am guessing it's the 3-series' efficient drivetrain and probably aerodynamics at higher speed. At 20 grand, the 1.8T seems like a good deal,though.

shipo

I suspect that you are correct about the drivetrain. BMW is one of the few manufacturers that still has high gear with a 1:1 ratio, most others are "Overdrive". As a result, once in top gear, any car with a "Straight through" transmission (Output shaft directly coupled to the input shaft with no gearing) will be faster than an otherwise identical car with Overdrive because there is less mechanical loss in the gearbox.

That leads me to another advantage RWD has over FWD (at least in the case of transverse engine/transaxle layouts), the FWD car is very hard if not impossible to design a Straight through transmission due to packaging limitations. What you wind up with instead is something like a 4.11 gear ratio in the differential coupled to a transmission that has 4th and 5th (and sometimes 3rd) gears setup as Overdrives (output shaft is spinning faster than the input shaft).

Best Regards,
Shipo

pat

Brave1heart, or anyone who has used a sealer spray - then what happens with the tire? I have read elsewhere here in Town Hall that the tire is somehow not fixable after using the product? Of course there could be problems with a tire that are not fixable in the first place, but what about a puncture that could otherwise be patched?

Just curious - I too have a can in my trunk and would just as soon not have to find out the answer for myself. :-)

What is this mobility system a couple of you are talking about?

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

visordoc

Those are great games too... what kind of controller do you use? Joy or wheel?

MarkinAtlanta

The mobility kit is a tire sealant and an air compressor that runs off the cigarette lighter outlet. I'd assume the tire could still be plugged after using the sealant, but I'm not really sure.

http://www.circlebmw.com/parts/access/mobilitykit-cat.htm

parump

I've used tire sealant successfully on several occasions with different cars. Some tire repair shops charge additional fees to patch the tire because of the time required to remove the sealant - it's messy. Costco has provided excellent service and has repaired our tire punctures (the tires were originally purchased at Costco) at no cost.

brave1heart

If I understand your explanation above correctly, top gear (and likely 4-th and 3-th as well) advantage would go to the BMW. I assume it is still best to shift from 4-th to 5-th at the HP peak point, right?

brave1heart

Amazingly, the tire (Dunlop SP5000) was not damaged in my case. It was losing air because the rim was dented by good 1/2 inch. The tire sealant contained the damage for a few minutes till I got home where I put in the spare. I subsequently used that same tire for at least 30,000 miles without any problems at all but again, I would not be able to provide a meaningful answer to your questions because my tire was not damaged.

brave1heart

Regular controls, no joy or wheel. The aftermarket Dreamcast wheels that I've seen are too light and are sized for kids. What do you use?

shipo

brave1heart

Regular controls, no joy or wheel. The aftermarket Dreamcast wheels that I've seen are too light and are sized for kids. What do you use?

shipo

To the best of my knowledge, BMW transmissions have only the top gear advantage over competitors that have a top gear that is an “Overdrive” (typical of the vast majority of FWD cars). As best as I can describe it, BMW uses a 1:1 direct coupling through the transmission, which has a 98% plus efficiency rating. Other gears (1st through 4th) have an indirect coupling where power is routed from the input shaft via a gear to a secondary shaft and then back to the output shaft via another gear (similar in nature to ALL forward gears in the VR6 transmission). I read somewhere that this power coupling is less than 85% efficient. That said, the BMW transmission should have about the same efficiency as a typical transverse FWD transmission in gears 1 through 4 (all else being equal).

That brings me to another point, TOTAL speculation mind you. Consider the following final drive ratios:

2.93/3.38 – 330i Manual/Automatic
3.15/3.46 – 325i Manual/Automatic
3.39/4.27 – Jetta VR6 Manual/Automatic
3.94/4.43 – Jetta 1.8t Manual/Automatic

Based upon the above specifications, you can see that the output shaft from the transmission will be turning the slowest at any given speed on a 330i Manual when compared to any of the listed cars. To me at least, it seems logical that if you have one car with slower turning components (once again, at any given speed) when compared to another, you should have lower mechanical friction losses than the car with the higher component speeds. IF this is true, the 325i 5-Speed will enjoy a slight mechanical advantage over a VR6 Jetta 5-Speed between 1st and 4th gears, and then a substantial advantage when both cars are in fifth.

Hopefully, I am not too far from the mark.

Best Regards,
Shipo

brave1heart

The slight advantage in first through fourth may explain why the 325 kept up with the 1.8T from 60 to 100, in spite of a 5% power-to weight disadvantage and was pulling away above that speed.

BTW, I looked up the numbers again and I realized that my 1.8T 0-100 number was off. I thought it was 20.1 while in fact it was 20.7 (all numbers provided by C&D). In other words, the 325i picks up half a second over the 1.8T from 60 to 100. Well, the advantage in that range (if any at all) was only marginal, certainly not half a second. I am now convinced that the 1.8T must have been chipped because I was upshifting swiftly at the redline in every gear without being able to muster half a second advantage. The 1.8T's driver seemed very experienced and had an aptitude for spirited driving - likely the type who would chip their car (1.8T's are popular for that) Oh, and the 325i does 119 mph at redline in fourth, so I didn't experiment too far with the fifth.

dave1363

I'm new to the BMW world so I need some advice. I'm considering leasing a Lexus GS 300 or a BMW 330i. I drove both and they are different worlds the Beemer is fun but small the Lexus is smooth but understated. Now my questions. The local dealer has some left over 2001 330i's that he is trying to move so he claims he can get me a great lease deal on the 2001 vs a 99 2000 because he can get the new car lease rate. The one I drove had an MSRP of $40,000. What can I expect in terms of getting the cap cost down to a reasonable amount? Will BMW move on price or are they like other high end car companies that expect MSRP and nothing less? Do I have a bargining position here or can I expect to base a lease on full MSRP. I can get a great deal on the Lexus GS because everyone is flocking to the ES 300. What kind of residual can I expect on the BMW in terms of % after 36 months? We haven't sat down to talk numbers but he threw out a ball park of around $550 a month with about $1,000. Before I go to deal price I wanted some inside info as to getting a good deal with a BMW. And by the way are the BMW's really worth the inflated price? The only other thing that concerns me is car is sporty and loud when accelerating, but how quiet is it on extended highway drives? A test drive isn't enough to evaluate. Any car I slect has to be smooth and comfortable when I need to drive 3 hours on the turnpike. I know I get that with Lexus but what about the BMW 330i on long highway trips?
Does the 330i feel cramped inside. I have two young children with car seats. Thanks for any info you can provide.

merckx

Dave,comparing the 3-series with the GS(which is the sportiest Lexus,discounting the absurd "Hot Wheels" IS),I would describe the Bimmer as interesting,alive,intriguing,but probably smooth ar relaxing. It is very quiet,as that's easy to do without compromising signature qualities.
I can say neither car has a bountiful backseat,but at least witw the BMW you do get a exceedingly trim,easy to park car.
I much prefer the 3-series,as most here would,but the GS is nice,too.

bmwrules

Just got a chip on my beautiful TiSilver baby. Does anyone know how to fix this? Does BMW dealers sell touch up paint?

tchoo

I just bought some Jet Black touch up paint and clearcoat at www.paintscratch.com. Cost about $25 in total with shipping. I intend to apply it onto several chips and scratches later this week. I'll let you know whether it works well.
On another note, I got a largish chip in my windshield from a runaway rock, any idea what it costs to replace or repair it?

shawn325i

My other car the Jetta 1.8T is quite fast and I haven't noticed any difference between my 325i and it in speed, but a BIG difference in how it "feels" at a high rate of speed (80 mph+). I have little confidence driving the Jetta much faster than 80mph especially if a big sweeping highway corner is ahead and I tend to layoff the gas a little to gain that lost confidence, however I attack those corners and speed up in my 325i. The Jetta is a great 2nd car, but I don't take it out for an hour here and there for a little fun like I do my 325i.

shipo

Brave,

A chipped 1.8t? Never heard of such a thing! ;-)

Dave,

A couple of things; first, you should be able to negotiate at least $1,000 off of MSRP on a 2001 model, if not $1,500 or even $2,000, given the fact that many folks (not all though) are able to negotiate at least a little off MSRP on a 2002 model.

Second, while I have never been in either the GS or the new ES, on paper at least, the GS has a combined 2.8" extra leg room over the 330i so it would be better for kids in car seats if you plan on long trips. My wife and I have a Caravan for longer trips with the family, so rear seat room is not as important to me as it might otherwise be, my children ride in the 328i to and from school and occasionally into NYC. Anyway, when I was shopping for my 328i, I took my young’uns to the dealership car seats and all, and strapped them in on a test drive to check how their feet hung between the seats when the seats were set for me (I am 5’8” and a little longer of leg than most folks of that height). As it turned out, I found the 328i to be JUST acceptable, however, on drives longer than 30 minutes, I do hear some complaining from the peanut gallery back there.

Third, I have heard from time to time folks criticize the E46 3-Series about being too noisy. My response to myself has always been “What’s up with that???” My car is so quiet that if I have even moderate volume on the sound system, I have to REALLY concentrate when shifting gears in traffic; otherwise, I get the car lurching and jerking as if I was just learning to drive a manual transmission. On long cruise control type trips, I find virtually everything about my car to be nearly perfect. Of course, there are often times on some trips that I want to turn off the cruise control and find a nice winding two-lane road for some variety. ;-)

Not that it is much of an issue for many folks, but the 3-Series gets great mileage on the open road, I just got 35.4 mpg on a trip to Fayetteville, WV (1,100 miles round trip) with an average speed in the low to mid 70’s. On the other hand, I have heard that the 6 and 8 cylinder engines from Lexus are not too economical on long trips (just hearsay from some of the more vocal Lexus supporters here at Edmunds), just another item to factor in.

Good luck in your search.

By the way, I recently tested a 530i with my 7-year-old son in his booster seat, and he had a lot more room than the 528i I tested back in 1998. Even though the specifications have not changed since then, it seems that BMW has re-engineered the seat backs of the front seats to allow for some more room. You might want to test that car as well.

Best Regards,
Shipo

P.S.
I get the impression that you are looking for a car with an automatic transmission, however, another potential advantage of either of the above two BMW cars is the availability of a manual gearbox, if you are so inclined.

bmwrules

Thanks. Is there paint and clear coat with that or is it just paint? Please tell me how it goes. I will either order from there or get one from the dealer.

Windsield: I got a chip on my Explorer and it took $65 to fix it and seal it (covered by my insurance) in NY. I can see the crack slightly, but it has a lifetime warranty that it wont crack and spread - or they will replace the windshield. Guy did it in 20 min at my home. I dont know how much it would cost to replace the whole thing.

topspin627

I leased the first Lexus GS 300 for 4 years when it came out which was around 97 I believe. I also test drove the new one and found it to be very similar. The biggest difference I could find was that the engine note seemed to be a bit more distinct. Here's my 2 cents on the GS. Amazingly reliable cars. Nothing will go wrong. Great service when needed. Excellent sound system. Very comfortable and luxurious. And after one year of driving it I was already anxious for something else. Why? For those who want something fun, exciting, different, it's a boring car. It does everything really well, but nothing great. For me the BMW is always fun and still a great highway cruiser. Is it the perfect car, no. But to me the Lexus tries to be good for everything and winds up being like a good scoop a vanilla ice cream. Is that bad, no. But if what you really want is cookies and cream with some nuts on top, you may not be happy with plain old vanilla.
In the end it's just personal preference. There really is no right or wrong on these cars, just what's right for you. Drive them both on Long test drives and then decide. Either way you can't make a mistake here.

ccotenj

well, i don't think it's overkill at all, because there's a lot of situations where just filling it with air will get you to a place that will patch it, rather than dumping in the fix-a-flat...

most times you'll have a slow leak because the offending piece is still stuck in there, and you are MUCH better off pumping it up with air rather than sealing it... RESIST the temptation to overfill with air, the additional pressure might force out the object and then you will have to fix-a-flat it...

yes, the tire place WILL charge you more to fix it once you put the sealant in, and sometimes it's (the tar) unusable once you've put the sealant in... also, if you do have to use the sealant, make SURE you tell the tire guy that you did...

possibly before people throw a response out, they might want to think everything through first... what initially seems better/cheaper, isn't always so... one m mobility system, around 125 bucks, one s-02 pp, 240 bucks... you decide...

about the touchup paint... yes, you have to clearcoat it after you apply the paint, otherwise you will not get a correct color match...

-Chris

rpadilla

I recall reading a few posts ago about the 37-degree F beeping alert....and, lo and behold, my car let me know that it is 37-deg F outside! And, yes, it is rather annoying -- has anyone determined if this can be programmed to not occur? (just curious)

Go Illini!
Go Bears!

dave330i

I believe the Lexus will better meet your needs. Smooth, comfort, and quiet are all results of being isolated from the road, and no one isolate you better than Lexus. BMW is pretty good, but they aren't Lexus good, and that's how most BMW owners prefer.

mmcbride1

I think BMW was inflating the residuals when you leased your 328i. They're just not in the high 60's anymore. That's just reality. A 2002 330i as of today is right around 60-62% for a 3 year, 12,000 per year lease (and that's as high as it's ever gonna be since the 2002s just came out). A 325i is either the same or 1-2% lower than the 330i.

If I calculated yours correctly, it's in the 68-69% range. You could not get that again today.

genie1

I spent all day at the Car Control School learning what my car can do. We had a couple of in-class hours where we covered some basics: proper seating position, mirror position, hand over hand steering. Our instructor also talked about tires (performance, snow, ice, rain and all-seasons) and the stock '82 Volvo that he races.

I found it very informative. I had no idea that snow/ice tires are effective not solely because of the tread (i.e. useful only when there is snow/ice on the road) but also because the rubber compound is formulated to perform in a temperature range. So while all-seasons have a wide range, dedicated snows will work best at colder temps.

Conversely, summer tires that offer optimum handling in pleasant weather will be as hard as rocks in temps below freezing. So those of you with summer tires (Brave?) might want to consider separate winter shoes for your babies.

And now to the fun stuff:

The lineup of cars was as follows (in no particular order):
Miata with perf. tires
Prelude
'85 M6 with snow tires
Subaru Impreza
Acura CL/TL/whatever
318is (mine)
Cavalier
Honda CRX

We started on the skid pad to handle understeer. It was a strange feeling, holding the steering steady trying to build up speed enough to get the tires squealing and inducing understeer. We learned to control it using throttle. I think my poor instructor may need his hearing checked. (I'm not sure who was squealing louder, my tires or me)

Then on to the slalom where I learned how good my ABS is. They set up a run that had us do emergency braking, collision avoidance and rapid sharp turns. I enjoyed this part of the day immensely.

We then had a fun run where we incorporated the skid-pad turns, Chicago boxes, chicanes and slaloms. I found I enjoyed this part but was not as fast as some of the others (the Miata guy and my brother in my car). Some of the guys were just spinning tires and squealing but weren't going anywhere fast.

I wasn't fastest, but OTOH, I didn't crash any pylons. I can practice and get faster.

I'm definitely hooked and will consider autox next year (after I get some practice).

brave1heart

Unfortunately, no. I happened to be driving through a hilly area and the temp was changing from 35 to 40 for about half-hour last week. The beep (chime?) was all over the place. I have the V1 concealed display on the dash and I'd like to keep all the flashing to radar warnings only... Some people argue that it's a BMW tradition and it's not as annoying. I am all for tradition but I do think this warning should have been optional and allow the driver to switch it off.

brave1heart

What, both of you deflected to the same country this week? What is it, Poland?

brave1heart

I know about the tire temp. I guess I'll have to do some donuts to warm up the tires before I get going every time it's freezing out. Should be fun ;o)

Not sure if you knew this - donuts are kinda like what you did in driving school - drive the car in circles spinning the tires.

dave330i

sounds like you had fun. I'll most likely end up going to High performance school before Car Control (bad scheduling on my part).

Are you sure it was understeer you did on the skidpad, not oversteer?

Being smooth is always the key to lapping faster time. Just keep working on being smooth, and slowly increase your speed.

genie1

Everyday I learn something new. I thought donuts were what you put on your car when you got a flat tire. Not to be confused with the staple food of the OPP.

mmcbride1

Just needed a change of scenery.

brave1heart

Did they teach you the do's and don'ts of eating a donut while doing donuts on donut tires in driving school? If they did, how did the donut taste?

brave1heart

Cheaper than traveling. But both you and ccotenj at the same time? Is there something we don't know?

ccotenj

i really think you should consider selling your bimmer, because no one should have to put up with anything as aggravating as a chime...

genie - hopefully some others out here will learn from your "tire experience"... but i doubt it... brave, you ain't gonna be able to get the temp in the tires... trust me... some of us having been trying to convince you of this (please see mine and others posts pointing out what genie pointed out about compounds)... if you want to take your life (and your bimmer) in your hands, so be it... but please stop posting with implications that what you are doing is correct, it is not, and you are going to deceive people who don't know any better... i'm not saying i know all that much about bimmers (and cars in general), but i do have an idea of who the people out here who do, and it would do you some good to listen to them...



-Chris

brave1heart

Cheaper than traveling. But both you and ccotenj at the same time? Is there something we don't know?

genie1

Yes it was understeer on the skidpad. We increased throttle until the car wanted to go straight out and then eased up to reduce the effect bringing us back tight into the circle.

This car is eminently tossable. I did notice all the instructors were eager to demonstrate technique to me using my car.

brave1heart

genie1

I got to ride shotgun around the fun run with one of the instructors in his chipped RX7. It also had a new suspension and engine. This thing was fantastic.

shipo

I cannot remember the exact residual that was used for the calculation back in 1998, however, I am pretty sure it was around 65%. I also had a very low money factor for the lease which helped bring the monthly down. I will have to look up the exact numbers tonight.

Having said that, I just checked the Edmunds TMV calculator for a "Private Party" resale and my car in "Clean" condition has a buyout that is about $450 less than TMV and $1,650 less than the "Excellent" TMV. It looks like 65% calculation was just about spot on.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dave330i

ok. I thought you're trying to make doughnuts on the skidpad.

genie1

Actually, now that we have Krispy Kreme in Toronto, I don't need to.

rpadilla

dave330i

lucky you. I've got to drive an hour for Krispy Kreme. Good thing I'm not a sugar fan.

mmcbride1

Let me rephrase that. I was not implying that the residuals were wrong/not accurate, I was just mentioning that you cannot get residuals that high anymore (at least not now). That drives up the lease costs (that, and rather high money factors).

shipo

I just checked a couple of sites that list lease residual values and you are correct, a new 330i is now showing 55% residual after 3 years. I wonder why the residual on a 330i has dropped, given that the used car market for the 3-Series is strong enough to justify the 65% residual that I had from three years ago. What do they know that we do not know?

Best Regards,
Shipo

ccotenj

if i had to guess, it's because fi's are hedging their bets a little bit with the uncertainty in the economy... they don't want to get REALLY stuck 3 years from now if the world economy is still in the crapper and their resid's are too high...

bankers DO NOT like uncertainty...

-Chris

mmcbride1

Well, take a look at the M3's historical resale and then look at the residuals. Way low, seeing as 3 year-old M3s sell for roughly 75% of new price, but the residual is the same as the 330i, I believe.

dave330i

Did you up your tire pressure at all during car control?

shipo

Good point about the economy.

As it turns out, my current leasing company (BancOne) is playing hardball with me regarding my lease end options. I called them last week to discuss my lease termination, and I asked them if I could extend my current lease 12 months with no additional miles, so as to be able to take advantage of the miles that I have already paid for.

Get this, I was told that if I was to extend my lease, they would use the cars' current market value $32,000 (like at a dealership used car lot) as the basis of the new lease NOT the residual value of $26,605 (includes all lease termination and transfer fees) AND they also require me to purchase an additional 15K miles. I was stunned. I asked why they were asking me to re-pay depreciation that I had already paid for, their answer, "That is just the way we do it."

It now looks like I have two options, sell the car myself at lease end and lease a new 330i or find another leasing company to buy the car from BancOne for the pre-calculated $26,605 and write me a new lease (I have found two companies that are willing to do this).

Best Regards,
Shipo