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Comments
THanks in advance.
Your car cannot have a first digit of "W" and be made in South Africa.
I am looking forward to my trip.
My dealer said that ALL 3-series X packages are indeed built in Germany. He was not sure as to why or what others are built in SA.
As for updated information on the 3-series...have you checked out the BMWUSA homepage? All the information is up-to-date as to packages and pricing. Is has been that way for about a week now. Also, my dealer was very up front with me about the delivery schedule. I ordered in mid-February, and at the time of order he said we were looking at at lesat end of April to first week in May. He was right on the button!
FWIW!
JD
It is a pleasure (not to mention my obligation to fellow 3-Series chat room brethren (sp?)) to post my latest 3-Series purchase. Your combined posts over the past few months have been instrumental in determining what's a fair deal:
Year/Model:
> 2001 325i (5-Speed)
Color:
> Siena Red
Interior:
> Montana leather (Sand)
> Black floor mats
Package:
> New Premium Package ($2,295 inv/$2,700 msrp)
(includes fog lights, cruise and auto climate control)
Other options:
> Xenon headlights
> In-dash AM/FM CD player
Additional:
> BMW's 5.9% APR simple interest financing with the option to obtain a better rate (could they go as low as 4.9%?? if offered) before vehicle delivery
> Dealer prep/documentation fee waived
All this stuff comes to:
$29,625 Invoice
$32,960 MSRP
I got this for $31,125. That's $1,500 OVER invoice (or $1,835 BELOW MSRP). I live in Atlanta and pitted dealer-against-dealer both by email and 800 number (6 dealerships within a 100 mile radius). I'll have to wait 9 weeks because the color/tranny/options I wanted couldn't be located. It's an "April build", so I'll get it in late May, but I'm getting EXACTLY what I want.
I think it's also important to note that I didn't go with the BEST quote per se, two dealerships would have given me the same deal at $1,300 over invoice (Athens and Macon), but that kind of 86'ed the notion of 'Courtesy Car' service during routine maintenance and repair because both dealerships are at least 90 miles away. To me, it was worth it to pay the extra $200.
Happy motoring!
Thanks
Will
Best Regards,
Shipo
When you get to this page, click on "BMW VIN decoding" (I would've given the exact address, but Edmund's puts a 100-character limit on all links.)
http://www.bmwe30.net/cgi-bin/search/anacondadir.pl?whereto=technical&search=vin
At the time this BMW table was made, no models had yet been made in S.A. But, the Z3 had started production in the U.S. Guess what the VERY FIRST DIGIT is on a BMW Z3 made in South Carolina? It isn't a "W".
As "shipo" stated, German-made VWs, Mecedes-Benzes, and BMWs all start with a "W". So do Porsches.
But there's more! Guess what the VERY FIRST DIGIT is on a Cadillac Catera? It's a "W" because, although Cadillac is an American nameplate, the Catera is built in Germany.
BTW, the only 3-series model being built in S.A. is the 325i. No coupe, wagon, AWD or 330s of any kind are being made at Rosslyn--the plant in South Africa.
Hope this helps.
24450 26990 BASE
1235 1450 Leather
2295 2700 Premium Package
425 500 Xenon
170 200 CD
28575 31840 Total
The numbers you quoted for the same options are $29,625 Invoice, $32,960 MSRP. Based on the price of $31,125 that you paid, you only got a $700 discount. It is possible that you either forgot to mention additional options that you got on the car, or you got screwed by the dealer because they charged you for the fog lights, cruise control, and auto climate, which just about adds up to the difference between my calculations above and the price you paid.
I warned on this site about a week ago that the mid-year model is getting an almost $1,200 discount for the fog lights, cruise control, auto climate and sports package. I almost fell for that trap when I ordered my BMW 325i. Please look at your numbers again - maybe it's not too late to change things.
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Car and driver had a great article on 4-wheel drives recently - read it for all your answers. The key thing is that the Quattro is the ONLY all-wheel drive system on the market that transfers torque not only from the front to the rear wheels, but also from side to side - always to the wheel(s) that have the best traction at any given point. I have driven the X5 and it handles great as well but again, it does not transfer torque from side to side and the rear gets 2/3 of the torque on average. Not to mention the fact that similarly equipped with all-wheel drive, the A4 1.8T is about 5-6 grand cheaper than a 325i, it feels more luxurious and it is almost as fast. I am getting a 325i for myself because I DO WANT a rear wheel drive and a perfect weight distribution (right, I'm a racing buff), but if I were to buy an wheel-wheel-drive, the A4 would be my first choice by a long shot!
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Cheers,
V
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It is an option that not many dealers even know about. I added some links to pages that show the option and the cost.
http://www.gumerlock.org/photo/virscan2.jpg
http://www.bmw330ci.com/my_330ci_vir.htm
http://www.cuttermotors.com/jon_shafer/rmiller10.jpg
http://www.cuttermotors.com/jon_shafer/rmiller09.jpg
Does your Audi have Stability control? You do know what that is right? Corrects over steer and under steer? Option on Audi, standard on a BMW. Just curious. I know that the "side to side" torque transfer impresses you, but unless you will be off roading in heavy mud, who cares? Thats where it is beneficial. A BMW AWD drives with 60% power(est) at the rear( to maintain performance) and 30% power(est)in the front. But will transfer most to front if needed. The side to side thing is nice if you have a Jeep, but on a car? Nah. What is important is how will your car handle itself if you start to go into a slide? AWD or not, they still slide around corners. Does your car have the system that will correct the over steer or under steer, keeping you going in the right direction? That is far more important than the side to side thing. Trust me.
Now, as far as the money you think you saved as a BMW, apparently you did not do your research in the right places. I am just going to point out some minor things in ownership cost. The prices I show are based on a 5 year history using a 1999 model Audi and BMW. No info available after 2000, to new still. It is an estimated cost of ownership from 1999 to 2003. The previous 5 years to that have the same pattern of cost.
Your Audi will depreciate more. It will also cost you more to maintain it. It will cost you more in repairs.
Hers the breakdown:
Audi A-4 BMW 323
Depreciation: $10,148 $9459
Insurance: About the same
Maintenance $6338 $3341
Repairs $3968 $774
Total 5yr ownership:
Audi $40,119 BMW- $34,547
A difference of $5572. Granit, I am not using a AWD BMW because they were not around in 99, but if you look at even the other Audi A-4's, all have the same pattern. High cost to keep. BMW is consistantly rated either "excellent or good" and Audi is "poor to worse than average"
Again, how is the Audi 5-6K less than a BMW? Your right, you do save at purchase, but they get you down the road. Plus the 3 series is the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety best pic for 2001, again. Still rated safest in class. Also, the BMW is only about 2K more than the Audi base price to base price with the AWD on the BMW. You get more standard safety features on the Bimmer. Plus the bimmer has larger brakes and stops quicker than the Audi, which could make a difference of hitting something in the Audi or missing it in the BMW. I hope your next car is a Bimmer, because you obviously know performance. But your reasoning for not buying a BMW AWD was not valid. So I had to say something. I am not knocking Audi at all. We own an Audi dealership. I think they are very nice cars and well built. Every car has strengths and weaknesses. All I did was point out the real deal on the two cars, the stuff behind closed doors your Audi salesperson would never tell you.
My source of info is www.intellichoice.com. Go check it out.
There is one thing that you are dead wrong about, though - the power of all-wheel drive on DRY roads. Listen, do yourself a favor, take an A4 out for a spin on DRY roads and you'll be amazed at the type of corners you can carve. Everybody knows about the advantages of Quattro in snow and ice but even on dry roads, this thing holds the corners like an oversized go-kart. As far as Electronic Stability, it slows you down when you are already skidding out of control. If you are a good driver, you shouldn't be skidding out of control in the first place. I do plan on switching it off when I get my BMW in May and the only time I might keep it on is in heavy snow. Again, I'm a racing buff and I think that a lot of the electronic gizmos they put in cars these days are for the average driver. You should be better than average driver if you buying a BMW or otherwise you are buying it 'cause chicks dig it. If that's the case, buy a Lexus IS300, not a BMW. Ever heard of a F1 or any other type of racing car with Electronic Stability? But yes, you do know of Audi Quattro and rallies from the 80's, right? There's your answer.
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I agree with you about the dry pavement thing. I have driven the Audi on several occasions, and your right, it is like a giant go cart. I was referring to slippery surfaces. You cannot defy natural physics. The DCS on a BMW just doesn't slow you down when your already in a skid. There is a little more to it than that. It helps prevent a skid. It works kinda like an airplane using "yaw". The second the yaw changes, the computer then slows the engine and applys brake pressure to individual wheels to get the car back in a straight direction. I don't know where you live, but if there is snow, go to BMW and test drive the AWD. If you can find a parking lot or road that is still snow covered, try to get the car to fishtale. If in the parking lot, get going about 35 and cut the wheel real hard left or right and then let go of the wheel. The car will straighten back out on its own. After you do that, repeat the same test in the Audi. You will find a dramatic difference. In the Audi, you will slide sideways. In the Bimmer, you will not. Even a bad driver will have more control. The point is, you have better control in rain, ice and snow and even on dry pavement. AWD is good for traction in a straight line and thats it. Or on dry pavement. I do not dispute Audi's ability to corner on dry pavement.
I agree with you on the racing aspect. You cannot have those systems on race cars. ABS is not good either. I know. But we are not talking about race cars either. I work with a gentleman who races for BMW. You may of seen him on Speed Vision. Races a 325, black with the checkered flag stripe across the windshield. Car number 75. Our dealership name is on the car in huge letters.
Please do not take any of this personal. I may be biased to BMW, but I still keep an open and postive outlook on other cars.
The statements I made in referrence to cost comes from www.intellichoice.com. Also consumer reports rates the Bimmer pretty high. JD Powers has picked the BMW as the "most appealing make" for the 6th year in a row. Although Audi was close. Just not first.:-)
Well, thank you for the constructive post. If you get the Bimmer, I wish you all the luck in the world.
1. If you represent a dealership, you should reveal this fact early in your e-mail. You have to understand that this board is not your "natural habitat". Readers come in here to share their passion for cars and learn things outside of the dealership. So by default, you will not be a very popular guy here.
2. As a dealer representative, you should know better the difference between AWD and DCS (BMW-speak for Electronic Stability). AWD gives you much better traction on ALL surfaces. DCS prevents sliding and brakes the wheels when they start slipping. AWD would probably be used in all racing cars if it wasn't for the extra couple of hundred pounds that it adds to the total weight. I drove an X5 at the BMW driver education series and yes - without the DCS you would skid out of control if you are stupid enough to be accelerating recklessly where you should be slowing down. But with the DCS on, you just can't do much because the gas is almost shut off and the only thing you can do is watch the vehicle slow down. For a good driver this is a waste of time and certainly no fun.
3. The numbers you are throwing on the board from intellichoice.com are a bunch of BS. Both Audi and BMW offer 4-yr no-fee scheduled maintenance and none of these numbers really matter. Besides, you are looking at '99 models. Guess what - the X wasn't around on those models. And you are wrong, the Audi is better equipped for the money and it is about 5 grand cheaper if you compare a 2001 A4 1.8T to a 2001 BMW 325i. I bought both cars in the past month and I know my numbers and all the differences between them. The are both great cars but the BMW would be driver's choice and the A4 with be the like-to-have-fun-but-want-the-AWD-drive choice
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I think you are confused about DCS. It stands for Dynamic Stability Control and is "standard" on all BMW's. It has nothing to do with AWD. It works off the braking system, not the drive system.
I also pointed out that BMW offers more standard "safety" features than Audi. It is also standard on Mercedes. And there is not a 5000 difference form a BMW AWD and Audi Quattro. Audi build there cars to compete with us. Not the other way around. They try very hard to make it like a BMW. We always here it. A lot of companies like to throw the BMW out there when advertising thier own cars. It shows you the presence of BMW in the market. We own an Audi/Porsche dealership. I called over there and asked. The difference was not 5000 on the 325. On the 330, yes, easy.
Relax man. All I am doing is stating the facts as I have read them. You think Intellichoice is BS because it does not favor your car. The entire history of Audi reliability has always been poor. Sorry guy, not my facts. And as far as Scheduled Maintenance, it is only 3 years on each car.Audi offers it but only covers things at the scheduled time unlike BMW. If you went to Audi before your scheduled service for something that normally would not be covered under the new warranty, you will have to pay for it. With BMW, doesn't matter. Everything is covered except tire rotation for 3 years.
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For example, I live on a sloped driveway so i have to go up, last snow fall was 8 inches and the audi plowed right up without me doing any shoveling! I was surprised because it doesn't have suv clearance. Also this year, I went to mount snow in vermont. Again, a sloped driveway. The driveway was plowed but icy in patches. My friends ford explorer got stuck (4wd), another friend's pickup (rear wheel drive)got stuck and had to be towed out by my other friends bronco.
The audi had no problems at all.
Again, I'm not criticizing the beemer, though for some reason, alot of these pages seems to be "I own the only good car in the world" atitude. I do agree with braveheart that dealer affiliation should be disclosed. I once had a bmw saleswomen tell me that rear wheel drive beemer with traction control would provide comparable snow traction to the quattro. I thought that was pretty funny.
My father and mother in law have beemers. Bottom line, I think they are both good cars, I think they are both a little over priced, the Beemer a little more so than the audi. Peace!
brave1heart/loonluver, you both are extremely knowledgeable people with real personal experiences to boot. We the readers reaped the benefit of learning a great deal through the heat of your discussions, but there is no need to get personal or offensive at each other. Let's bury the hatchets and continue pondering on any thoughts on the bimmers.
I've been quoted as low as $399 and high as $750 here in the ATL. Shouldn't it be the SAME!?? I mean, are we dealing with BMW NA at this point or the individual dealers?
If it's the dealers, do I necessarily HAVE to purchase that 4th year from the dealer I bought the car from? Obviously, I'd much rather go with the $399 price from another local dealer after year 3.
V
Just an FYI, Bimmer did make an AWD during the 80's. Any customer that comes here with the old "ix" version to trade for the new "xi", will drive nothing else by Bimmer. Never has there been an issue with our AWD. All AWD systems work basically off the same priniple.
My bare bones reaction is that if you want AWD, go with Audi. It is a far more sophisticated system and it actually improves the handling of the car. Whether that has to do with side to side torque transfer, I can't say but I would guess that transfer of power to outer wheels in cornering should logically make for better cornering.
Second, from my point of view, the BMW is still a better car. It has a more solid feel and is absolutely unflappable under pressure. I don't take anything away from the Audi, but the bimmer is just a more rock solid car and IMO more fun. (My wife disagrees.) On the other hand, the Audi is considerably more luxurious and may have better assembly quality.
Second, if you are comparing a stripped 325 to an A4, the 1.8 may be a good comparison, but if you're buying some options, the 2.8 is more comparable. Similarly equipped cars can be bought for within a few hundred dollars range, and the performance (acceleration) of the 2.8 v the 325 will be comparable.
Last, I hate DCS, ASC, ESP and all the other acronyms. If I lived where it snowed, I might feel differently but from my point of view, having the electronic systems clamp down the moment they sense wheel spin actually interferes with and hampers my control.
These are both great cars. Drive both. See what you like. Oh, and don't forget the new A4 which has gotten rave reviews in Europe should be here by the fall.
I used to live in Fl so I know that the roads do get very slick after a rain fall. Having traction control works as well on wet pavement.
As far as all the electronic gizmos, you probably won't like them even if you lived in the North, as you seem to be the kind of driver that enjoys shifting for themselves. Good luck to you, enjoy the BMW and A4. Diversity is great!
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The Mx schedule has four events which rotate at approx 15,000 mile interval.
Oil Change
Inspection I
Oil Change
Inspection II
With the standard 3yr/36k full Mx you should get the first oil change and first Inspection I. The second oil change is at about 45k so you'll get that for your $399 but Inspection II isn't until around 60k which is well after even the extended full-Mx expires.
$399 seems a little expensive for an oil change.
I used to love throwing the Datsun into corners, pressing the accelerator hard to break loose the rear tires and then hold that slip around the corner with accelerator and steering. Truly great fun after you got the nack. When I got my BMW2002 and tried the same thing, it would slightly under-steer so I backed off on the throttle and it became neutral. I pumped up the front tires and tried the same corner again and still got under-steer. After a number of days of trying this and that, I discovered that I could get around the corner fastest if I turned smoothly into the corner, get the suspension settled and then pressed on the gas. After that point, I went around the corner accelerating as if I were on rails and turned the corner far faster than the Datsun ever did.
My point is that my BWM2002 was not setup to be flung around but rather driven smoothly thought transient maneuvers. If the current 3 Series is set up in a similar way and I drive it that way, I should never get to the point where the electronic safety systems take over. No matter how much these features help, I still have to use good driving judgment since nothing is going to save me from entering a sharp corner covered with sand at 50mph.
As a side note and as other people have suggested, AWD is not just for snow and poor adhesion. I drove a 325xi around a 120degree, downhill turn on Saturday while accelerating heavily. I was mightily impressed when I did not detect ever a hint of under-steer associated with a pure, rear wheel drive vehicle. During heavy acceleration in turns, a normal car wants to lift the front wheels at a time when this weight is needed to maintain lateral adhesion. The DSC was off and I could not detect any over-steer either; it just grooved around the corner.
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Whatever the full maintenance package covers for the first 3yr/36k, it will also cover with the extension. (So, yes, that would include brake wear.)
Skip it.
Any comments on the Sports Package tires in snow? Although I live in the NorthEast, I am not planning on getting all-season tires for my 325. C&D says they make a huge difference on snow but then again, even in the NorthEast you only get to drive on snow what - 10-15 days every Winter? It just doesn't seem to be worth the hassle buying Winter tires but I still want to know what I'd be giving up in terms of performance on snow.
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