By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Sports pkg. - When I was home for Christmas back in the states a couple of weeks ago, my friend let me use his car for a week. It is a 98 328i without the spp. Although it handled well, it just did not have the glued-to-the-road feeling I had when I drove the 530. I know it is not a fair comparison, being different models and all. My point is, despite the added weight and bulk on the 530, it felt more connected and stable with spp than it was on the 328i without it. Again, just my personal observation, nothing more.
Tires - I used to have Goodyear RS-A (on my 95 Integra), that is what you have, right?, and it was less than impressive. It was ok in the beginning, but it lost its grip very fast, and it would squeal in a not-so hard turns, and hyrdoplane around 75 mph that I did not feel safe at all. I switched to Kumho Ecsta and it is stable, not too noisy, great wet traction and CHEAP! On a positive note, the Goodyear did last a while. It lasted about 60,000 miles.
The attitude of every one, while being polite and helpful, is that they have no need to discount them at all due to the fact that they will sell every one that they can get their hands on by order. Looking around, none has any stock on the lot and says that they can't keep ahold of it if they do get any that aren't pre-sold. Is it just my area or am I missing something? I read several hundred posts back and the consensus seems to be that this is far over what it should be.
Also, I noticed in reading above that ED should not count against their allotment here. Anybody can confirm? In theory, they should deal more on this.
Thanks in advance for your experiences. I want to buy one but everybody is making it so damn difficult! (I guess the easy thing is to just pay - but that thought gives me ulcers)
While both egregious sins deserving of a year's punishment driving an IS300, I think the former is far more heretical than the latter
But as has been said several times, a slushbox Bimmer is still better than no Bimmer at all. Whatever you're driving, enjoy it!
Drive what you want for whatever reasons you want - if you must convince us that yours is the right choice, that is your right, but here's one vote to leave this whole tranmission/suspension business alone for awhile. Each of us has good reasons for making the choices we do - I'm ready to assume you know what is best for you and don't need anyone here to tell you otherwise...
10: Clears vs. OEM lighting
9: 5-Speed Manual vs. SMG
8: Premium fuel vs. Mid-Grade or Regular
7: 325i vs. 330i (aka. What price the extra power)
6: RWD vs. AWD
5: Summer tires vs. All-Season Tires vs. Winter tires
4: SP vs. Non-SP
3: Synthetic Oil Change Intervals (2K vs. 15K)
2: Leather vs. Leatherette
1: 5-Speed Manual vs. Steptronic
What else can we have fun discussing?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Isn't the 5-speed automatic in the 3 and 5 Series a General Motors of Europe? Built in France? Does that make BMWs with it part GM? Thinking the Steptronic components are BMW proprietary software upgrades to basic GM hardware. GM finally put their own great AT into a USA car, the '03 Cadillac CTS. Don't think CTS has steptronic/manumatic mode. Interesting. Current issues of R&T and C&D have nice reviews of the new CTS.
I tell you what, since we've moved from our previous platform to Web Crossing, I am a lot more understanding of folks asking the same questions that have been answered previously. We've been here just over one year, and WebX has YET to provide us with a decent search feature. It is impossible to search within a single discussion for a specific, meaningful result.
That feature is supposedly in the works. But until it is available, I think it would be a nice thing if we all just forgive those who ask the questions that we've already discussed since we know that it is nearly impossible to find previous conversations within a discussion - at least for now.
All of that said, I do understand what you mean about "read the past five days" - however, that can gently be pointed out to newbies, don't you think? Given that this discussion has close to 12,500 existing posts and the site offers NO way to easily search through them, it seems understandable to me that a newbie would just ask a question rather than assume the daunting task of looking back through that many messages, twenty at a time.
Just my thoughts - I hope you understand. :-)
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Shipo, I'd rather discuss those same ten items for another 10000 posts than go back to two topics in particular that came up in 2001 (names obscured to avoid the moderator):
- "My Prelude and why the 3 series can't hold a candle to it" by X
- "A stream-of-consciousness commentary on the merits of the IS300...and oh yeah, why BMWs suck" by Y
Well, after a week with the new 330i, I seem to be getting much better mileage than I did in Germany. As much fun as driving 120mph is, I guess there's no denying that it does burn petrol faster than setting the old cruise control on 55.
I live in Connecticut and I know when I got my last set of plates with the new style/color they provided 2 plates. I always had 1 plate before that... I am not sure if it is a law though.
I looked at a few cars at the dealer lot and noticed that it seems especially more noticeable on some cars more the others. (I didn't take note on which year/model). One of the salesmen I asked just gave me a blank stare.
Did I get the wrong trim or is this just the way it is?
CNorthrup
In the computer business, many companies have a "Help Desk" aka. "Helpless Desk" (one company I worked with was so bad that the joke going around was that the Help Desk was going to be replaced by a VRU that had the recording "Uh-ha... Uh-ha... Uh-ha... Reboot!"). Anyway, a common code to record a general OE (Operator Error) is the classic RTFM error ("Read The Frigging Manual", or some semblance thereof). One of my all time favorites is PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair). All of that said, we will still have to be patient and help out the newbies and ultimately, someday, pass the torch to some of them.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
"Can anyone tell me what are the current money factors and residuals for BMW 325i and 330i for 36 months/30,000 miles leases? I need those numbers badly as I will have to order my new BMW 325i or 330i at the end of January, as the lease on my 99 323i expires on 4/3/02. I want to lease for 36 months w/30,000 miles, with out-of-pocket payment minimized as much as possible.
Furthermore, I believe that I will opt to pay multiple security deposits, so any information about how much they lower the price will be helpful. I was told that BMW allows up to 9 fully refundable security deposits to be paid when leasing, and I have heard that the savings can be pretty significant, about 40% on the "investment" of all 9 security deposits. I believe that this is a very good return, especially nowadays when bank/investment rates are so low.
Of course, I appreciate any other tips that may lower the lease price. Also, feel free to to share your monthly payments as well, as one of the dealers told me that they will try to match any other legit deal.
Please let me know. I will certainly use these numbers to help me to negotiate the deal.
Thanks in advance."
P.S. Our baby boy Jason was born on Thursday night and I will be very busy for a while. Not to mention that it's very hard typing with one hand
Id rather be in a Gold /Red tannin leather, wood trimmed, slushbox,without SP.
SKobola : im not a leaser , but isnt that info on BMWUSA.COM ?I would have thought it would have been published, good luck.
Happy Motoring
DL
"Can anyone tell me what are the current money factors and residuals for BMW 325i and 330i for 36 months/30,000 miles leases?"
It would seem that a very high percentage of BMW drivers have leased their cars. Here in Toronto, Canada about 60% of all new BMWs are leased. And of the remaining 40%, almost all are financed.
I think any kind of financing for a car is a bad mistake, unless it is an absolute necessity (e.g. you need a car for practical functioning and can’t afford to purchase outright the minimum car that would suffice).
The simple truth is that for nearly everyone who finances, they’re getting into a car that’s well beyond their means. They can’t afford to buy it. Worse, they usually can’t afford to finance a purchase. So they have to rent it instead.
If you can’t afford to buy it, sorry, it’s not for you. Especially if it’s a luxury item.
Instead of a heavily leveraged financing/leasing of an expensive car like a BMW, be responsible and buy a car that corresponds with the reality of your wealth, whether that might be a used BMW, a newer Toyota or whatever.
I think it’s different for the exception I allowed for above – to acquire a basic needs car to enable you to function. If financing a used Civic allows you to work, etc. but you can’t afford to purchase it outright, then financing is ok.
Sorry to spoil the party with a bit of sobriety, but the pleasures of indulgence don’t justify living beyond your means.
But buying an expensive depreciating asset up front, with no financing or leasing, isn't necessarily always logical. You had to plunk down huge amounts of cash. You can't use that money for anything else. Do you do that on your house? And if the manufacturer is subsidizing the lease or financing deal, your opportunity cost is greater than the missed financing cost. How come all the people I know who could afford to pay cash up front tend to lease or finance like the rest of us? Only exceptions I see are wealthy farmers.
You left off a big one:
3.5 European Delivery
-Murray
“ the average buyer (not leasee) only hangs onto their car about 37-39 months. . .”
I doubt that very much. I would think the figure is more like 7 years.
“But I concur that people should buy or lease what they can afford.”
And I think it’s pretty obvious that most people who lease BMWs do so ‘cause it’s the only way they can get their hands on one. They simply can’t afford to even finance it, much less buy it outright.
“But buying an expensive depreciating asset up front ... Do you do that on your house?”
A house is very different because it usually is an appreciating asset, not depreciating – so the leverage of financing works in your favor rather than against you. Note that financing your own ownership in this case too makes a lot more sense than renting.
“How come all the people I know who could afford to pay cash up front tend to lease or finance like the rest of us?”
If financing/leasing a car you can’t otherwise afford makes sense, then so would financing/leasing all kinds of other personal property. Are you going to finance or lease that next suit of clothes you buy? You can afford a $400.00 suit but would prefer to wear that $1,000.00 one. What makes sense here?
You did find the right discussion when you asked in Lease Questions - Ask Here. I see that Car_Man answered quite a number of questions shortly after your post, and I think it is entirely possible that he just overlooked yours.
Try posting there again, and address your message specifically to Car_Man. Actually, one easy way to do this would be to create a new post directed to Car_Man, explain that you never got an answer to a previous post, then link your earlier post into your new message. You can do this by right clicking on the post number of your message, choosing Copy (or Copy Link Location), then right-clicking in your new message and choosing paste. Then when you post your new message, what you pasted will look like this: skobola "Lease Questions - Ask Here" Jan 9, 2002 9:53pm and you won't have to retype a thing.
If Car_Man doesn't know the answer, I'll bet he can suggest another resource for you.
Good luck - let us know what you find out.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46/forum.php?postid=299540&page=1
Regchase, you have to understand that there is a lot of people who do not have the same set of car purchasing/owning criteria as you, as already responded by others (see riez). In my case, I do not want to have a car for more than 3 years, and I do not want to hassle with tire-kickers when the time comes to sell it. Therefore I lease. I know that there is some money premium that I pay in the process, but I believe that it is worth for me by saving the time and aggravation. If you are fine of paying more that what you can get by researching, than please do, BMW dealers will certainly love you! By the way, your comparison of suits and cars is ridiculous, as there are much more people who would have $400/$1,000 saved than $40,000, so for a car it actually makes sense to lease or get it financed. There are articles describing when and for whom the leasing makes sense, please read them, maybe you will not be that confused/negative about the concept.
Acckkk, BMWUSA.com does not have any such data, nor they wanted to provide it over the phone when I called. They told me that this would be completely at dealers' discretion - i.e., they can wheel and deal you if you allow them. This is actually why I asked for these numbers, so I can walk them through the calculations. Also, one dealer in Miami told me that they will (try to) match offers of other dealers, which possibly may make my new car purchased close to home, and which I want only because then I would get a loaner when the car is serviced.
Bing330i, thanks, these were helpful, although not providing the MF and residuals, not being applied to 325Ci... Their 330i leases were however pretty high, I already got lower bids.
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES!
No, it doesn’t make sense.
Consider a 30 year period of car ownership, say between the ages of 25 and 55. Assume a driver goes through what, maybe six cars during that time. And let’s also assume that over these decades of car ownership our driver has a gradual increase in earning power and as a result gradually moves upmarket in the kinds of cars he gets.
If throughout that thirty year period a driver is continually financing or leasing, he’ll end up spending at least 25% of his car money on the costs of financing/leasing. The costs of financing or leasing a $30,000 car typically have the practical effect of turning it into a $40,000 car. As a result, on balance the driver will get less car for his money.
What’s the benefit, then? Simple: in the early part of the 30 year period, he gets himself into a car he otherwise couldn’t have. But with the consequence that after the first car or two he ends up driving less of a car than he otherwise would have.
It only takes a little delayed gratification to maintain yourself throughout your car driving career in a position of saving up for your next car instead of paying off or renting your current one.
The notion that financing/leasing has an advantage in that it frees up your money for other things, thus creating an “opportunity cost” to outright purchasing, is fallacious because it ignores the reality that while you’re saving up for your next car, you have the corresponding potential of earning interest on it.
However you might look at it, whatever your wealth, you’ll go though your driving career with a limited range of resources to spend on cars. By financing/leasing your cars, you choose to spend a major part of those financial resources on interest costs, etc. rather than the cars themselves.
Heck, loaded Ford Explorer stickers for more. As do some fancy 4-wheel drive club/crew cab pickup trucks. And BMWs hold their resale value so well that it keeps lease cost down. Just check out the residuals for Cadillac, Lincoln, and Chrysler (LHS/Concorde/300M). So poor their natural lease costs are uncompetitive, so Detroit has to aggressively subsize leases in most cases.
I couldn't imagine holding anything but a collectible car for more than 5 years. Think of all the safety equipment that has come on-line since '95??? Dying in "my" fully paid off '94 Neon hardly seems logical. I'll take the outstanding safety ratings earned by BMW 3 and 5 Series and their new safety equipment.
I hope he likes snow!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
shipo - colors! We can talk about colors!! Speaking of which, I think you intend to make your next BMW a Sapphire Black. This is the one color I've never (knowingly) seen -- neither on a dealer lot nor on the road. My salesman told me you couldn't tell it from regular black at 2 feet. Let's assume he was exaggerating and meant 20 feet. I still find it hard to believe that BMW would go to the trouble of making a color that is virtually indistinguishable from another one. Are the 2 blacks really that much alike? How is Sapphire Black different?
Oh, also in 2001, we discussed the heavy/light steering controversy a lot.
Brave1heart - congratulations, Dad!
regchase - is a house REALLY an appreciating asset, when you take into account the effect of inflation on the value of the dollar and also, all the money you spend keeping that house in good condition? -- I doubt it.
"Most rich people lease 7 Series, including many who could buy it."
You seem to imply that 7 series owners are rich. Incredibly, that simply isn't true. Only a small percentage of 7 series drivers are genuinely rich in the sense they could pay cash for a 7 series. It stand to reason that those who can pay cash simply do so.
Instead, most 7 series drivers are in highly leveraged cars, meaning of course that they are in beyond their means and can't afford to buy it. All anyone needs is an indifference to financial prudence, and $1,000 or so a month, to drive a 7 series. With acquisition being so easy you can be sure that most of the drivers of 7 series are leveraged posers rather than genuinely rich people.
The same game goes on in the 3 and other series BMWs.
"You can get a decent 3 Series with an MSRP in the $29-34,000 range."
Well, some people can afford to pay that much outright and some can't.
For those who can't, they're better off buying what they actually can afford than leveraging themselves into something they can't.
Carrying on financing/leasing vehicles one after the other simply can't be rationalized in comparison with buying what you can afford and waiting a while for a better car.
As for what the average 3 Series owner can afford, I'll leave that up to God, them, the dealer, and their bank. That is what the last two get paid to figure out. But the lease deals I see in the paper on 325i and 330i seem reasonable. Heck, recent 525i lease add was for $499 with about $2,500 down (think 39 months and 12,000 miles per year). That is certainly affordable for the vast majority of middle class and higher people in the market to drive a new car.
“ Let us both be honest and admit up front we can't prove the demographics of 7 Series buyers. However, I'd be willing to wager that the average 7 Series buyer has a medium income many multiples higher than the overall medium income in USA.”
I’m privy to the breakdown of new BMWs leased in Canada – as I mentioned earlier, over 60% of all BMW are leased. Moreover, there has for years been a clear trend that there is a higher percentage of leases in the more expensive classes of BMW, with the result that the 7 series is about 85% leased. I would expect the same pattern in the U.S. since the car market in each country is pretty well the same.
As you have observed, leases make cars affordable – or at the least, it makes them seem affordable. Anybody with a passable credit rating can lease a 7 series with no money down and something in the order of what, $1,200 US per month? Isn’t it rather inevitable that when you make such a high-end desirable car so readily available that most “buyers” will get one solely by virtue of the easy entry price rather than their having a “medium income many multiples higher” than the average?
It sure appears the guy in that 7 series is rich – look, even you believe he is. But you have to look at how he got there.
“ the lease deals I see in the paper on 325i and 330i seem reasonable certainly affordable for the vast majority of middle class and higher people in the market to drive a new car.”
It remains the case that if someone can’t afford to buy it outright, they're better off buying what they actually can afford rather than leveraging themselves into something they can't.
Financing and leasing means you’re giving up 1/4 of your car buying power to the finance company. That inevitably means less car for you in the long run. Which is especially bad for a car enthusiast.
Regarding leasing, this topic has been beaten to death before. I think we all agreed that there are obvious and definite financial/tax advantages if you are in a business and can deduct your car costs.
Otherwise, it makes no financial sense to lease/rent a car, as regchase stated. Does anyone for a moment think that these leasing companies (ie. banks, car companies) want to altruistically lease us a car for our own benefit? Of course not! They are in this business to make money. And if they don't make money in this business, they wouldn't be around for long.
Riez, if you have any friends who work in banks, accounting etc, just ask them! Don't take our word for it, we are just a bunch of car enthusiasts, specifically the 3-series.
However, having said all that, I do understand that we are all different in our demographics in terms of age, financial background, work, etc. Some of us like to take a $3000 vacation every year, some like driving cars. And if someone really likes to drive a great car like the 3-series but is unable to buy it outright, well then, leasing may make sense. But just make sure that your paycheque and credit cards are not stretched to the limit. And realize that some financial sacrifices will have to be made in other areas eg. vacation, eating out, etc.
But hey, it's a free country...and the leasing companies have employees who need to eat, pay off their rent/mortgage, send their kids to college etc....
“ there are obvious and definite financial/tax advantages if you are in a business and can deduct your car costs.“
In Canada you can only deduct as a business expense that proportion of its financed cost or lease cost that corresponds to about $28,000.
The reality is that for cars costing over 28k there is no advantage to leasing at all. Or financing with debt, for that matter.
Well, at least it's better than nothing. It is nice to know that the car I'm driving around is partially "subsidized" by Revenue Canada!
I was beginning to wonder where you were for the past few days, but then I recalled...
There are plenty of reasons someone would want to finance a car. First, one can, over time, generally receive a better return on $40K than the 6% or so you pay in interest on a car loan. Thus, it is actually often profitable to finance, even if you have the cash to buy a car outright. Moreover, inflation reduces the value of the cash you are paying (by about 2% per annum), thus making financing that much more appealing. Finally, if you are smart enough to finance through a home equity loan where you have not borrowed more than the cost basis on your home, you can use the interest paid on the loan as a tax deduction.
Many people, myself included, are still young and have their best income-earning years ahead of them, yet are doing well enough to feel comfortable purchasing a luxury automobile, in part because they expect to generate increasing income streams in years to come. Furthermore, for people like me (I am an attorney) driving a nice automobile is a part of an image you project to clients and colleagues.
Finally, you presume to know the best way for people to allocate their resources. In fact, consumption decisions are inherently individual in that they are intended to maximize utility for an individual with unique taste and preferences. As such, there is no single right answer for questions such as this.
You might want to consider what a condescending, "If you're not as rich as me, you shouldn't be driving this car" sort of fellow you seem when publicly advocating positions such as this.
regchase: Who do you think you are? Many who can afford to buy a luxury car with cash still choose to finance. Some choose to lease since they may be able to write off the depreciation portion of the lease payment (which is the majority of the payment). Some can do better than 6% interest (net is less if you can write off the interest from home equity loans) with their money invested elsewhere. Can you?
"...one can, over time, generally receive a better return on $40K than the 6% or so you pay in interest on a car loan. Thus, it is actually often profitable to finance, even if you have the cash to buy a car outright."
Having the choice of paying cash or taking a low-interest loan is not the situation of 99% of drivers who finance/lease expensive luxury or sports cars. On the contrary, highly leveraged financing is the only way they can get anywhere close to such a car, because they're "buying" into a car that is well beyond their means.
This happens to have the result that a lot of those expensive sports and luxury cars are on the road at interest rates that are much higher than your 6%, which of course compounds the foolishness of it all.
“Many people, myself included, are still young and have their best income-earning years ahead of them, yet are doing well enough to feel comfortable purchasing a luxury automobile, in part because they expect to generate increasing income streams in years to come.”
This is the textbook recipe of financing a current car from future income. Given any budget of limited resources (whether modest, immense or otherwise) this path of car acquisition guarantees that
(1) a significant part of your car-related budget over the years will go to finance companies instead of to cars; and
(2) in future years you won’t be able to afford as good a car as you would had you avoided financing/leasing.
"Finally, you presume to know the best way for people to allocate their resources."
Yes, I do presume a car enthusiast would rather have all his car budget over the decades go to cars, instead of having a quarter of it go to finance companies.
“You might want to consider what a condescending, "If you're not as rich as me, you shouldn't be driving this car" sort of fellow you seem when publicly advocating positions such as this."
I hope I haven’t sounded condescending. I haven’t said anything about myself being rich or otherwise, as I’d rather talk about issues than about myself.
For what it’s worth, you were the one who said "...for people like me ... I am an attorney ..."
Chop chop.