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BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

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  • john01john01 Member Posts: 246
    Steptronic - When I test drove a 530, it was a step model with spp. I am not fond of slush boxes, but it was perhaps the best slush box I drove. I still prefer the manual, but as far as the autos go, this one did quite well. I did not bother with the manual mode as it just did not feel quite right. I can't put my finger on it, but if felt like I was learning a new skill, you know that awkward feeling?, despite the fact that I drive a manual car.

    Sports pkg. - When I was home for Christmas back in the states a couple of weeks ago, my friend let me use his car for a week. It is a 98 328i without the spp. Although it handled well, it just did not have the glued-to-the-road feeling I had when I drove the 530. I know it is not a fair comparison, being different models and all. My point is, despite the added weight and bulk on the 530, it felt more connected and stable with spp than it was on the 328i without it. Again, just my personal observation, nothing more.

    Tires - I used to have Goodyear RS-A (on my 95 Integra), that is what you have, right?, and it was less than impressive. It was ok in the beginning, but it lost its grip very fast, and it would squeal in a not-so hard turns, and hyrdoplane around 75 mph that I did not feel safe at all. I switched to Kumho Ecsta and it is stable, not too noisy, great wet traction and CHEAP! On a positive note, the Goodyear did last a while. It lasted about 60,000 miles.
  • modendahlmodendahl Member Posts: 22
    Thanks for the info on euro delivery. I did not yet realize about the payment due a month before. With a lease, that will definitely eat into the time that I have the car. Sort of deflates the whole idea of doing ED - but not completely!
  • modendahlmodendahl Member Posts: 22
    In talking to each dealer in my area (North Chicago/Milwaukee), each quotes a price right around $2k over invoice for a 325i.

    The attitude of every one, while being polite and helpful, is that they have no need to discount them at all due to the fact that they will sell every one that they can get their hands on by order. Looking around, none has any stock on the lot and says that they can't keep ahold of it if they do get any that aren't pre-sold. Is it just my area or am I missing something? I read several hundred posts back and the consensus seems to be that this is far over what it should be.

    Also, I noticed in reading above that ED should not count against their allotment here. Anybody can confirm? In theory, they should deal more on this.

    Thanks in advance for your experiences. I want to buy one but everybody is making it so damn difficult! (I guess the easy thing is to just pay - but that thought gives me ulcers)
  • orkwisorkwis Member Posts: 82
    You'll only get screwed if you let it happen. I had better experience doing things over the internet. You have a little more control that way. You can also consider eurobuyers.com. I don't know if they deal with anyone in your area but the closest to me was about 600 miles away. They said they could get $1500 plus their $350 fee. Not worth it if you can get $2k over. I'd suggest you widen your search some and see what you come up with. You can then decide how much each mile of driving is worth. One other datapoint. I contacted Cutter Motors in CA and they do $1350 over invoice, you'd have to have it shipped, but that might be a bit less that $650. I also had a professional experince with the dealers in Toledo and Cleveland, it might not be that far a drive for you. Good luck!
  • derprofiderprofi Member Posts: 250
    Dont be tooo critical of someone getting a slushbox, after all lots of the 5 speeders didnt even get a Sports package, why get a BMW with out a Sports package? makes sense eh?

    While both egregious sins deserving of a year's punishment driving an IS300, I think the former is far more heretical than the latter :) Someone with a 5-speed and no SP is still doing more than "use wheel to point car in desired direction, apply gas/brakes as needed" even though they are missing out on improved handling not to mention much better looking wheels.

    But as has been said several times, a slushbox Bimmer is still better than no Bimmer at all. Whatever you're driving, enjoy it!
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...that it is long past time to stop dissing each other over what equipment one picks for the car. Find something meaningful to argue about - choice of transmission or suspension hardly seems to qualify, not to mention that this pseudodebate breaks out like a rash every few days, with excellent exercise of keyboard skills and little else.

    Drive what you want for whatever reasons you want - if you must convince us that yours is the right choice, that is your right, but here's one vote to leave this whole tranmission/suspension business alone for awhile. Each of us has good reasons for making the choices we do - I'm ready to assume you know what is best for you and don't need anyone here to tell you otherwise...
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, what are the "Top 10" debate topics here on the "BMW 3-Series" thread?

    10: Clears vs. OEM lighting
    9: 5-Speed Manual vs. SMG
    8: Premium fuel vs. Mid-Grade or Regular
    7: 325i vs. 330i (aka. What price the extra power)
    6: RWD vs. AWD
    5: Summer tires vs. All-Season Tires vs. Winter tires
    4: SP vs. Non-SP
    3: Synthetic Oil Change Intervals (2K vs. 15K)
    2: Leather vs. Leatherette
    1: 5-Speed Manual vs. Steptronic

    What else can we have fun discussing?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • abcnycabcnyc Member Posts: 101
    I was able to get $1790 over invoice on a 330i, but that was after contacting about 6-8 dealers. I am fortunate that in the Wash DC/Baltimore area there are many dealers. But like you, I also encountered some dealers that had the attitude "we can sell them at full MSRP" and offered discounts of $200-$500 below MSRP. You may have to broaden your search - I was calling dealers from Philadephia, PA to Richmond, VA. But $2000 over invoice doesn't sound too bad. These are hot cars that are high in demand. It may depend on how far out of your area you are willing to go. I once bought a car from Dover, DE and I live in MD. It was a 2 1/2 hour drive but it was worth it.
  • bing330ibing330i Member Posts: 89
    May I suggest the townhall add a banner on each page stating "Please kindly browse at least 5 past days' posts before posting your question." The people on the board have been very kind and responsive. However, someone gets to do his homework, not take advantage of this board as a convenience store by just throwing a question whenever he thought. Many times same topics were just discussed a couple of days ago but were asked over and over. I hate to sound like this as we all have been newbies. But one should pay his due respect to the people to whom he asks questions by doing a bit of homework. Kind Regards.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    I absolutely love my '98 540i 6-speed. Outside of the M5, it is the penultimate BMW. But I also love my wife's '00 323iA Premium Pkg but without Sport Pkg. Still a very fun car to drive. So while I'd always buy the manual with the Sport Package, I certainly won't dismiss a BMW just for lacking both (except maybe in the old underpowered 318iA sedans of yore?).

    Isn't the 5-speed automatic in the 3 and 5 Series a General Motors of Europe? Built in France? Does that make BMWs with it part GM? Thinking the Steptronic components are BMW proprietary software upgrades to basic GM hardware. GM finally put their own great AT into a USA car, the '03 Cadillac CTS. Don't think CTS has steptronic/manumatic mode. Interesting. Current issues of R&T and C&D have nice reviews of the new CTS.
  • mitchs3mitchs3 Member Posts: 68
    Does anyone know where are the sensors for the automatic headlights (330i w/PP) and outside temperature guage?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I hear ya! But we already have a "Please SEARCH for a discussion before creating a new one" and do you know how many times duplicate topics are created regardless of that message? (Answer: zillions!!)

    I tell you what, since we've moved from our previous platform to Web Crossing, I am a lot more understanding of folks asking the same questions that have been answered previously. We've been here just over one year, and WebX has YET to provide us with a decent search feature. It is impossible to search within a single discussion for a specific, meaningful result.

    That feature is supposedly in the works. But until it is available, I think it would be a nice thing if we all just forgive those who ask the questions that we've already discussed since we know that it is nearly impossible to find previous conversations within a discussion - at least for now.

    All of that said, I do understand what you mean about "read the past five days" - however, that can gently be pointed out to newbies, don't you think? Given that this discussion has close to 12,500 existing posts and the site offers NO way to easily search through them, it seems understandable to me that a newbie would just ask a question rather than assume the daunting task of looking back through that many messages, twenty at a time.

    Just my thoughts - I hope you understand. :-)

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • derprofiderprofi Member Posts: 250
    didn't mean to sound like I'm dissing anyone so apologies to the offended. Again, any Bimmer is better than no Bimmer and whatever you're driving, enjoy it. However, when it looks like someone has convinced themself that it's somehow more effort to drive a 5-speed in traffic vs. a Steptronic, the reptilian part of my brain goes all aflutter and I have to comment because it simply isn't so.

    Shipo, I'd rather discuss those same ten items for another 10000 posts than go back to two topics in particular that came up in 2001 (names obscured to avoid the moderator):
    - "My Prelude and why the 3 series can't hold a candle to it" by X
    - "A stream-of-consciousness commentary on the merits of the IS300...and oh yeah, why BMWs suck" by Y

    Well, after a week with the new 330i, I seem to be getting much better mileage than I did in Germany. As much fun as driving 120mph is, I guess there's no denying that it does burn petrol faster than setting the old cruise control on 55.
  • derprofiderprofi Member Posts: 250
    Wasn't there a FAQ someone was putting together? If so, maybe a link should be reposted every week or so.
  • cnorthrupcnorthrup Member Posts: 74
    I was wondering if anyone has noticed the way that the black trim fits on either side of the marker plate holder. I am talking about the gap where the two pieces meet that is a few inches to the left and right of the marker plate holder assembly. It almost looks like a little piece should be there or it was designed as an after thought. I am thinking that this is a result of the piece being replaced at the factory to accommodate the marker plate holder assembly. It seems that I remember reading somewhere that if you don't need the front plate there is another piece of oem trim that will fit better.

    I live in Connecticut and I know when I got my last set of plates with the new style/color they provided 2 plates. I always had 1 plate before that... I am not sure if it is a law though.

    I looked at a few cars at the dealer lot and noticed that it seems especially more noticeable on some cars more the others. (I didn't take note on which year/model). One of the salesmen I asked just gave me a blank stare.

    Did I get the wrong trim or is this just the way it is?

    CNorthrup
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    We tried that last summer and it just seemed to be something of a flop because folks STILL wanted to discuss and question regardless of what they read (or ignored) in the FAQ. Such is life.

    In the computer business, many companies have a "Help Desk" aka. "Helpless Desk" (one company I worked with was so bad that the joke going around was that the Help Desk was going to be replaced by a VRU that had the recording "Uh-ha... Uh-ha... Uh-ha... Reboot!"). Anyway, a common code to record a general OE (Operator Error) is the classic RTFM error ("Read The Frigging Manual", or some semblance thereof). One of my all time favorites is PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair). All of that said, we will still have to be patient and help out the newbies and ultimately, someday, pass the torch to some of them.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    By the way, ditto on the two topics that I hope we never have to re-open. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • skobolaskobola Member Posts: 207
    This is my 3rd post of the same question. I do not know why I am getting ignored, so maybe one of the hosts would answer it. I really need this information, but if there is a reaason for ignoring my question, I believe that I should be warned/told. So, here it goes again:

    "Can anyone tell me what are the current money factors and residuals for BMW 325i and 330i for 36 months/30,000 miles leases? I need those numbers badly as I will have to order my new BMW 325i or 330i at the end of January, as the lease on my 99 323i expires on 4/3/02. I want to lease for 36 months w/30,000 miles, with out-of-pocket payment minimized as much as possible.
    Furthermore, I believe that I will opt to pay multiple security deposits, so any information about how much they lower the price will be helpful. I was told that BMW allows up to 9 fully refundable security deposits to be paid when leasing, and I have heard that the savings can be pretty significant, about 40% on the "investment" of all 9 security deposits. I believe that this is a very good return, especially nowadays when bank/investment rates are so low.
    Of course, I appreciate any other tips that may lower the lease price. Also, feel free to to share your monthly payments as well, as one of the dealers told me that they will try to match any other legit deal.
    Please let me know. I will certainly use these numbers to help me to negotiate the deal.
    Thanks in advance."
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    skobola... Have you asked your question on the roadfly bimmer board? Guessing someone there might be able to help you.
  • compwhizcompwhiz Member Posts: 46
    I got my 530 there, and they have given me more off MSRP than any other Chicagoland dealer. Call them and ask for Joel - he is very nice and helpful. He'll discount ED as well. Just tell him what you're looking for, and that you come as a referral. I'm sure he'll appreciate it. Let me know what happens. I know another friend who got 2001 325 there around spring time, and he tells me he got the best deal with Joel, too. Just walk in and tell him reasonably what you expect to pay. I think you might be pleasantly surprised. Let me know what happens. BTW, their service is excellent as well - you can come in ANY time, no huge waiting list necessary, especially if you buy a car from them
  • skobolaskobola Member Posts: 207
    Yes I did. Nobody answered. I really do not understand that, and evenmore, I tried on the Lease board on Edmunds TownHall, and noone answered there neither. Go figure.
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    As I mentioned, BMWNA discontinued the program for 325 owners some time in mid-July. You would have had to get on the list early enough to make it (build date was less relevant in this case).

    P.S. Our baby boy Jason was born on Thursday night and I will be very busy for a while. Not to mention that it's very hard typing with one hand :o)
  • dl7265dl7265 Member Posts: 1,381
    PLease dont put me in a IS300 sheesh ....
    Id rather be in a Gold /Red tannin leather, wood trimmed, slushbox,without SP.

    SKobola : im not a leaser , but isnt that info on BMWUSA.COM ?I would have thought it would have been published, good luck.

    Happy Motoring
    DL
  • regchaseregchase Member Posts: 19
    Skobola asks:

    "Can anyone tell me what are the current money factors and residuals for BMW 325i and 330i for 36 months/30,000 miles leases?"

    It would seem that a very high percentage of BMW drivers have leased their cars. Here in Toronto, Canada about 60% of all new BMWs are leased. And of the remaining 40%, almost all are financed.

    I think any kind of financing for a car is a bad mistake, unless it is an absolute necessity (e.g. you need a car for practical functioning and can’t afford to purchase outright the minimum car that would suffice).

    The simple truth is that for nearly everyone who finances, they’re getting into a car that’s well beyond their means. They can’t afford to buy it. Worse, they usually can’t afford to finance a purchase. So they have to rent it instead.

    If you can’t afford to buy it, sorry, it’s not for you. Especially if it’s a luxury item.

    Instead of a heavily leveraged financing/leasing of an expensive car like a BMW, be responsible and buy a car that corresponds with the reality of your wealth, whether that might be a used BMW, a newer Toyota or whatever.

    I think it’s different for the exception I allowed for above – to acquire a basic needs car to enable you to function. If financing a used Civic allows you to work, etc. but you can’t afford to purchase it outright, then financing is ok.

    Sorry to spoil the party with a bit of sobriety, but the pleasures of indulgence don’t justify living beyond your means.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    regchase... Last figures I had showed the average buyer (not leasee) only hangs onto their car about 37-39 months. About the same length of time as a 3 year lease. Then they trade the car in for something new. The payments will be a bit higher during the ownership period but you might have some equity built up (or think you do when the dealer does his trade-in flim-flamming). But the leasee has no equity. Is an individualized comparison. But I concur that people should buy or lease what they can afford. Your car payment shouldn't crowd out all the rest of your expenses and lead you to eat canned food in an unheated apartment.

    But buying an expensive depreciating asset up front, with no financing or leasing, isn't necessarily always logical. You had to plunk down huge amounts of cash. You can't use that money for anything else. Do you do that on your house? And if the manufacturer is subsidizing the lease or financing deal, your opportunity cost is greater than the missed financing cost. How come all the people I know who could afford to pay cash up front tend to lease or finance like the rest of us? Only exceptions I see are wealthy farmers.
  • mschukarmschukar Member Posts: 351
    Shipo-

    You left off a big one:

    3.5 European Delivery

    -Murray
  • mario1mario1 Member Posts: 1
    I have been trying to get a good deal from dealerships in NJ but I can't get anything better than $200 offer MSRP. Is that the norm for this state? What have others been getter in NJ?
  • regchaseregchase Member Posts: 19
    riez writes:

    “… the average buyer (not leasee) only hangs onto their car about 37-39 months. . .”

    I doubt that very much. I would think the figure is more like 7 years.

    “But I concur that people should buy or lease what they can afford.”

    And I think it’s pretty obvious that most people who lease BMWs do so ‘cause it’s the only way they can get their hands on one. They simply can’t afford to even finance it, much less buy it outright.

    “But buying an expensive depreciating asset up front ... Do you do that on your house?”

    A house is very different because it usually is an appreciating asset, not depreciating – so the leverage of financing works in your favor rather than against you. Note that financing your own ownership in this case too makes a lot more sense than renting.

    “How come all the people I know who could afford to pay cash up front tend to lease or finance like the rest of us?”

    If financing/leasing a car you can’t otherwise afford makes sense, then so would financing/leasing all kinds of other personal property. Are you going to finance or lease that next suit of clothes you buy? You can afford a $400.00 suit but would prefer to wear that $1,000.00 one. What makes sense here?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I don't think that you are being intentionally ignored by any means. I imagine no one here knows the answer to your question, that's all.

    You did find the right discussion when you asked in Lease Questions - Ask Here. I see that Car_Man answered quite a number of questions shortly after your post, and I think it is entirely possible that he just overlooked yours.

    Try posting there again, and address your message specifically to Car_Man. Actually, one easy way to do this would be to create a new post directed to Car_Man, explain that you never got an answer to a previous post, then link your earlier post into your new message. You can do this by right clicking on the post number of your message, choosing Copy (or Copy Link Location), then right-clicking in your new message and choosing paste. Then when you post your new message, what you pasted will look like this: skobola "Lease Questions - Ask Here" Jan 9, 2002 9:53pm and you won't have to retype a thing.

    If Car_Man doesn't know the answer, I'll bet he can suggest another resource for you.

    Good luck - let us know what you find out.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Congratulations! I trust mother and Jason are very well.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • skobolaskobola Member Posts: 207
    Pat (HOST), I do not know why my post got ignored, but it is hard for me to believe that it was overlooked because I posted 3 times. Also, it seems to me that Car Man knows all the data for all cars, so I guess that I irritated him by repeatedly asking the same question. Well...

    Regchase, you have to understand that there is a lot of people who do not have the same set of car purchasing/owning criteria as you, as already responded by others (see riez). In my case, I do not want to have a car for more than 3 years, and I do not want to hassle with tire-kickers when the time comes to sell it. Therefore I lease. I know that there is some money premium that I pay in the process, but I believe that it is worth for me by saving the time and aggravation. If you are fine of paying more that what you can get by researching, than please do, BMW dealers will certainly love you! By the way, your comparison of suits and cars is ridiculous, as there are much more people who would have $400/$1,000 saved than $40,000, so for a car it actually makes sense to lease or get it financed. There are articles describing when and for whom the leasing makes sense, please read them, maybe you will not be that confused/negative about the concept.

    Acckkk, BMWUSA.com does not have any such data, nor they wanted to provide it over the phone when I called. They told me that this would be completely at dealers' discretion - i.e., they can wheel and deal you if you allow them. This is actually why I asked for these numbers, so I can walk them through the calculations. Also, one dealer in Miami told me that they will (try to) match offers of other dealers, which possibly may make my new car purchased close to home, and which I want only because then I would get a loaner when the car is serviced.

    Bing330i, thanks, these were helpful, although not providing the MF and residuals, not being applied to 325Ci... Their 330i leases were however pretty high, I already got lower bids.

    THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES!
  • regchaseregchase Member Posts: 19
    Skobola says “there are much more people who would have $400/$1,000 saved than $40,000, so for a car it actually makes sense to lease or get it financed.”

    No, it doesn’t make sense.

    Consider a 30 year period of car ownership, say between the ages of 25 and 55. Assume a driver goes through what, maybe six cars during that time. And let’s also assume that over these decades of car ownership our driver has a gradual increase in earning power and as a result gradually moves upmarket in the kinds of cars he gets.

    If throughout that thirty year period a driver is continually financing or leasing, he’ll end up spending at least 25% of his car money on the costs of financing/leasing. The costs of financing or leasing a $30,000 car typically have the practical effect of turning it into a $40,000 car. As a result, on balance the driver will get less car for his money.

    What’s the benefit, then? Simple: in the early part of the 30 year period, he gets himself into a car he otherwise couldn’t have. But with the consequence that after the first car or two he ends up driving less of a car than he otherwise would have.

    It only takes a little delayed gratification to maintain yourself throughout your car driving career in a position of saving up for your next car instead of paying off or renting your current one.

    The notion that financing/leasing has an advantage in that it frees up your money for other things, thus creating an “opportunity cost” to outright purchasing, is fallacious because it ignores the reality that while you’re saving up for your next car, you have the corresponding potential of earning interest on it.

    However you might look at it, whatever your wealth, you’ll go though your driving career with a limited range of resources to spend on cars. By financing/leasing your cars, you choose to spend a major part of those financial resources on interest costs, etc. rather than the cars themselves.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    regchase... I'm talking people buying new cars today. Are you talkin' people buying 7 Series, 5 Series, or 3 Series? Most rich people lease 7 Series, including many who could buy it. They likely have a couple other cars and don't put too many miles on it. But this is a 3 Series forum. You can get a decent 3 Series with an MSRP in the $29-34,000 range.

    Heck, loaded Ford Explorer stickers for more. As do some fancy 4-wheel drive club/crew cab pickup trucks. And BMWs hold their resale value so well that it keeps lease cost down. Just check out the residuals for Cadillac, Lincoln, and Chrysler (LHS/Concorde/300M). So poor their natural lease costs are uncompetitive, so Detroit has to aggressively subsize leases in most cases.

    I couldn't imagine holding anything but a collectible car for more than 5 years. Think of all the safety equipment that has come on-line since '95??? Dying in "my" fully paid off '94 Neon hardly seems logical. I'll take the outstanding safety ratings earned by BMW 3 and 5 Series and their new safety equipment.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,188
    Our 3 year old boy is named Jason, also. Welcome to a whole new world! Before you know it, he'll be asking you for the keys...
    I hope he likes snow!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • postoakpostoak Member Posts: 537
    skobola - I, too, wanted this information a while back and couldn't get it from the BMWNA website or calling their 1-800 number as some suggested. Also, asking Carman questions is a very cumbersome method of communicating. I finally got ALL my questions answered by calling the F&I office of a local BMW dealership -- this is what BMW intends for you to do. The people at the dealership were nice and friendly, not pushy, and didn't even ask for my name.

    shipo - colors! We can talk about colors!! Speaking of which, I think you intend to make your next BMW a Sapphire Black. This is the one color I've never (knowingly) seen -- neither on a dealer lot nor on the road. My salesman told me you couldn't tell it from regular black at 2 feet. Let's assume he was exaggerating and meant 20 feet. I still find it hard to believe that BMW would go to the trouble of making a color that is virtually indistinguishable from another one. Are the 2 blacks really that much alike? How is Sapphire Black different?

    Oh, also in 2001, we discussed the heavy/light steering controversy a lot.

    Brave1heart - congratulations, Dad!

    regchase - is a house REALLY an appreciating asset, when you take into account the effect of inflation on the value of the dollar and also, all the money you spend keeping that house in good condition? -- I doubt it.
  • regchaseregchase Member Posts: 19
    riez says:

    "Most rich people lease 7 Series, including many who could buy it."

    You seem to imply that 7 series owners are rich. Incredibly, that simply isn't true. Only a small percentage of 7 series drivers are genuinely rich in the sense they could pay cash for a 7 series. It stand to reason that those who can pay cash simply do so.

    Instead, most 7 series drivers are in highly leveraged cars, meaning of course that they are in beyond their means and can't afford to buy it. All anyone needs is an indifference to financial prudence, and $1,000 or so a month, to drive a 7 series. With acquisition being so easy you can be sure that most of the drivers of 7 series are leveraged posers rather than genuinely rich people.

    The same game goes on in the 3 and other series BMWs.

    "You can get a decent 3 Series with an MSRP in the $29-34,000 range."

    Well, some people can afford to pay that much outright and some can't.

    For those who can't, they're better off buying what they actually can afford than leveraging themselves into something they can't.

    Carrying on financing/leasing vehicles one after the other simply can't be rationalized in comparison with buying what you can afford and waiting a while for a better car.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    regchase... Let us both be honest and admit up front we can't prove the demographics of 7 Series buyers. However, I'd be willing to wager that the average 7 Series buyer has a medium income many multiples higher than the overall medium income in USA. Betting their house is valued many multiples higher than the average house. So while we can discuss what it means to be "rich" and how to define it, don't think anyone would argue with a straight face that the average new 7 Series owner (buyee, financee, or leasee) is poor, lower middle class, or middle class. That only leaves up!

    As for what the average 3 Series owner can afford, I'll leave that up to God, them, the dealer, and their bank. That is what the last two get paid to figure out. But the lease deals I see in the paper on 325i and 330i seem reasonable. Heck, recent 525i lease add was for $499 with about $2,500 down (think 39 months and 12,000 miles per year). That is certainly affordable for the vast majority of middle class and higher people in the market to drive a new car.
  • regchaseregchase Member Posts: 19
    riez states

    “… Let us both be honest and admit up front we can't prove the demographics of 7 Series buyers. However, I'd be willing to wager that the average 7 Series buyer has a medium income many multiples higher than the overall medium income in USA.”

    I’m privy to the breakdown of new BMWs leased in Canada – as I mentioned earlier, over 60% of all BMW are leased. Moreover, there has for years been a clear trend that there is a higher percentage of leases in the more expensive classes of BMW, with the result that the 7 series is about 85% leased. I would expect the same pattern in the U.S. since the car market in each country is pretty well the same.

    As you have observed, leases make cars affordable – or at the least, it makes them seem affordable. Anybody with a passable credit rating can lease a 7 series with no money down and something in the order of what, $1,200 US per month? Isn’t it rather inevitable that when you make such a high-end desirable car so readily available that most “buyers” will get one solely by virtue of the easy entry price rather than their having a “medium income many multiples higher” than the average?

    It sure appears the guy in that 7 series is rich – look, even you believe he is. But you have to look at how he got there.

    “… the lease deals I see in the paper on 325i and 330i seem reasonable … certainly affordable for the vast majority of middle class and higher people in the market to drive a new car.”

    It remains the case that if someone can’t afford to buy it outright, they're better off buying what they actually can afford rather than leveraging themselves into something they can't.

    Financing and leasing means you’re giving up 1/4 of your car buying power to the finance company. That inevitably means less car for you in the long run. Which is especially bad for a car enthusiast.
  • visordocvisordoc Member Posts: 48
    shipo: It looks like you left this one out of the top 10 list also.

    Regarding leasing, this topic has been beaten to death before. I think we all agreed that there are obvious and definite financial/tax advantages if you are in a business and can deduct your car costs.

    Otherwise, it makes no financial sense to lease/rent a car, as regchase stated. Does anyone for a moment think that these leasing companies (ie. banks, car companies) want to altruistically lease us a car for our own benefit? Of course not! They are in this business to make money. And if they don't make money in this business, they wouldn't be around for long.

    Riez, if you have any friends who work in banks, accounting etc, just ask them! Don't take our word for it, we are just a bunch of car enthusiasts, specifically the 3-series.

    However, having said all that, I do understand that we are all different in our demographics in terms of age, financial background, work, etc. Some of us like to take a $3000 vacation every year, some like driving cars. And if someone really likes to drive a great car like the 3-series but is unable to buy it outright, well then, leasing may make sense. But just make sure that your paycheque and credit cards are not stretched to the limit. And realize that some financial sacrifices will have to be made in other areas eg. vacation, eating out, etc.

    But hey, it's a free country...and the leasing companies have employees who need to eat, pay off their rent/mortgage, send their kids to college etc....
  • regchaseregchase Member Posts: 19
    visordoc wrote:

    “ … there are obvious and definite financial/tax advantages if you are in a business and can deduct your car costs.“

    In Canada you can only deduct as a business expense that proportion of its financed cost or lease cost that corresponds to about $28,000.

    The reality is that for cars costing over 28k there is no advantage to leasing at all. Or financing with debt, for that matter.
  • visordocvisordoc Member Posts: 48
    regchase:
    Well, at least it's better than nothing. It is nice to know that the car I'm driving around is partially "subsidized" by Revenue Canada!
  • visordocvisordoc Member Posts: 48
    Hey, congratulations on your newborn! Hope all is well with baby and mom.

    I was beginning to wonder where you were for the past few days, but then I recalled...
  • denrightdenright Member Posts: 285
    Regchase, you presume to dictate others' consumption (and, presumably, saving) behavior by essentially indicating that people should only buy a vehicle that they can afford to purchase outright. I can't express to you how poorly you come off making such a statement.

    There are plenty of reasons someone would want to finance a car. First, one can, over time, generally receive a better return on $40K than the 6% or so you pay in interest on a car loan. Thus, it is actually often profitable to finance, even if you have the cash to buy a car outright. Moreover, inflation reduces the value of the cash you are paying (by about 2% per annum), thus making financing that much more appealing. Finally, if you are smart enough to finance through a home equity loan where you have not borrowed more than the cost basis on your home, you can use the interest paid on the loan as a tax deduction.

    Many people, myself included, are still young and have their best income-earning years ahead of them, yet are doing well enough to feel comfortable purchasing a luxury automobile, in part because they expect to generate increasing income streams in years to come. Furthermore, for people like me (I am an attorney) driving a nice automobile is a part of an image you project to clients and colleagues.

    Finally, you presume to know the best way for people to allocate their resources. In fact, consumption decisions are inherently individual in that they are intended to maximize utility for an individual with unique taste and preferences. As such, there is no single right answer for questions such as this.

    You might want to consider what a condescending, "If you're not as rich as me, you shouldn't be driving this car" sort of fellow you seem when publicly advocating positions such as this.
  • heatmiser1heatmiser1 Member Posts: 122
    denright: AMEN!!!

    regchase: Who do you think you are? Many who can afford to buy a luxury car with cash still choose to finance. Some choose to lease since they may be able to write off the depreciation portion of the lease payment (which is the majority of the payment). Some can do better than 6% interest (net is less if you can write off the interest from home equity loans) with their money invested elsewhere. Can you?
  • regchaseregchase Member Posts: 19
    denright wrote:

    "...one can, over time, generally receive a better return on $40K than the 6% or so you pay in interest on a car loan. Thus, it is actually often profitable to finance, even if you have the cash to buy a car outright."

    Having the choice of paying cash or taking a low-interest loan is not the situation of 99% of drivers who finance/lease expensive luxury or sports cars. On the contrary, highly leveraged financing is the only way they can get anywhere close to such a car, because they're "buying" into a car that is well beyond their means.

    This happens to have the result that a lot of those expensive sports and luxury cars are on the road at interest rates that are much higher than your 6%, which of course compounds the foolishness of it all.

    “Many people, myself included, are still young and have their best income-earning years ahead of them, yet are doing well enough to feel comfortable purchasing a luxury automobile, in part because they expect to generate increasing income streams in years to come.”

    This is the textbook recipe of financing a current car from future income. Given any budget of limited resources (whether modest, immense or otherwise) this path of car acquisition guarantees that
    (1) a significant part of your car-related budget over the years will go to finance companies instead of to cars; and
    (2) in future years you won’t be able to afford as good a car as you would had you avoided financing/leasing.

    "Finally, you presume to know the best way for people to allocate their resources."

    Yes, I do presume a car enthusiast would rather have all his car budget over the decades go to cars, instead of having a quarter of it go to finance companies.

    “You might want to consider what a condescending, "If you're not as rich as me, you shouldn't be driving this car" sort of fellow you seem when publicly advocating positions such as this."

    I hope I haven’t sounded condescending. I haven’t said anything about myself being rich or otherwise, as I’d rather talk about issues than about myself.

    For what it’s worth, you were the one who said "...for people like me ... I am an attorney ..."
  • postoakpostoak Member Posts: 537
    You're beginning to sound a lot like a troll. Why don't you post over in the Finance Forum?
  • daswolfdaswolf Member Posts: 43
  • daswolfdaswolf Member Posts: 43
    Here in the good 'ol USA, people get to do what they want with their money, assuming its legal. Among items which happen to be legal are included financing and leasing an automobile. Even if it means they are living "beyond their means" by your definition. I'm sure that if you prefer a true Monarchy where the little people know their place, there are still several third world countries where your advice would be welcome. By the way, the "Commonwealth" exists in name only now and the Queen doesn't really run the empire any more.
    Chop chop.
  • heatmiser1heatmiser1 Member Posts: 122
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