BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

dave330i

The reason is wider tires don't work in snow, and BMW assumes xi drivers will experience snow driving. For snow driving you need a narrow profile.

brave1heart

I'd add that with the X models, BMWNA targets the family/safety crowd, not the performance crowd. The family/safety crowd does not care nearly as much about low-profile performance tires on bigger rims and since the number of buyers will be limited, the low volume would eat up some of the profit margins.

AWD = safety
RWD = performance

==> that's BMWNA's take on 3-series U.S. buyers in an oversimplified way.

brave1heart

The money you'd have to spend on snow tires if you got the sport package is NOT at all a reason for not getting the sport package. Because the snow tires are generally cheaper than high performance tires, your per-mile cost during the winter months will be lower. The only true expense is getting the second set of rims but if you go with steel rims, it will not cost you much. You may even be able to recoup some of the initial cost for the rims when you sell the rims with the car. It also works for leasing - you will not have to buy a second set of performance tires because you will not burn through the first set.

The 325 will not be faster than the 323 off the start. It may even be 1/10 sec slower 0-60 mph because it is about 100 lbs heavier and the 323 has a higher max torque rating. The 325 has a much flatter torque curve and unlike the 323's which drops off fast after the peak at 3,500 RPM's, the 325's stays at near-peak way past the peak point. The end result is 14 extra ponies at 6,000 RPM's but you really cannot feel those until after 3,500 RPM's. A manual would of course remedy a lot of the sluggishness that the 325 step has off the start. Not to mention that driving a slushie is like having sex while wearing multiple condoms - you are there, you are having it, but you just don't feel much (sorry step owners)...

I'd say:
1. Teach your wife how to drive a manual
2. If she refuses to learn, compromise and promise her something else that she's wanted but you do not agree to (like encouraging her to get those expensive curtains she's wanted)
3. If all else fails, threaten her to jump off a bridge and leave her alone with the kid.

Disclaimer: I've already tried 3. on a separate occasion but it didn't work )

dl7265

yeah what he said.... more HP, less Torque , i prefer more later than former. or in english you know how those Honda's with a kazillion HP but 0 torque feel ? You have to wind them up like a clock to get going..

best of luck,
DL

mschukar

For less money than the HK system, you can get a better after market stuff (granted you'll still only have 6 speakers)

I don't buy car stereos often, but I have to disagree. Precisely what can you get for the price of the HK upgrade? You could spend $600 for an amp by itself and be left with the same 6 speakers.

-Murray

alan927

ds2k1 - Is your 330i a pre March 01 production because if it isn't then you already have the sport suspension since it came standard after that date.

SEATS - For the person asking about the seats . . . I have the power sport seats in my 330Ci with the power lumbar support and like most will say, they are excellent. I sit in them in a pretty relaxed position and find them extremely comfortable however I rarely use the Lumbar support so I wouldn't say this is a 'must have' option. Also, with the seat memory (if you get that option) it's great because you could have one setting for relaxed driving, one setting for aggressive driving (when you want to sit up more) and still have one left for the wife.

********* BIG SEAT NEWS *******
I don't know if you guys know this but as of March 2002 production, all 330's will come with an 8 way power adjustment (Convertible will be 10 way due to the power headrests)
It's about time BMW gave all 330's the tilt feature !!!

One thing I never liked about the 330 non-sport model was that you couldn't tilt the seat !!

denright

I made that analogy about driving an auto being akin to having sex with a condom last year. That post got removed by the fun police.

I wonder what will happen with this post. Hmmm...

bmw323is

I drive a 2000 323i with SP and my friend has a 2001 325i with PP (both with 5 speeds). We've driven each others cars. I can feel no difference (by my butt dyno, as shipo would say) in straight acceleration. In handling there is substantial difference with the SP. Also the SP is firmer, but not punishing (seats are far better). One noticeable difference, in otherwise identical cars is that the 2001 had a much louder exhaust, especially at lower RPM's (below 4,500). I liked it, but wondered if it would wear thin on longer trips.

twoof1

OUCH that hurt!!
It may be an automatic, but the step manu-shift mode is the best one out there (I've driven a bunch) short of the SMG which is currently only available on the M3
It really is the best of both worlds.
Just curious how much time have you spent driving a 325 W/steptronic?

riez

My wife just came back from her 2 week vacation. She had nothin' but great things to say about her 3 Series. She put 3,872 miles on her CPO '00 323iA (21,342-25,214). Her first big trip in it since she bought it 12/1/01. She ended up getting 28.31 mpg (comparing actual gallons consumed versus trip odometer & total odometer readings), driving 74-79 mph on interstate. Her two best tankfuls were 29.74 and 29.50 mpg; two worst were 26.37 and 26.90 mpg. She had plenty of interior space for herself, luggage, and all the stuff she bought and brought back. She had more than enough room for her 4-day side trip with her sister and mother (about 800 miles round trip). She found the car relaxed at speed, quiet, and a joy to drive long distances. Comfortable to drive. No back pain. No problems of any kind.

mschukar

Just curious, does your wifes 3 have the sport package? I have no doubt that my 325i with SP would be great on a long trip.

-Murray

wrjohnsonpghpa

Food for thought, you could save a lot of money and increase handling significantly by just swapping out the stock all season Conti's for higher performance summer tires. Heck, what about swapping both the stock wheels and tires for the SP wheels/tires. The total radius would be virtually the same (24.88" stock vs. 24.98" SP)--negating any potential speedo affect. We all know the BMW speedo is off anyway.

tenet1

Twoof: I agree that the step is not given the credit it deserves. I was sceptical when I bought my 3 but after learning to use the step effectively, it truly does provide some sprirted driving that is achieved through driving a manual (which I drove for 18 years). There is a reason why it is a $1000+ option. I cant wait to get the SMG on my next car.

1peirce: My personal experience driving the 323 versus my 325 (without looking at torque curves, etc.) showed the 325 to be a lot more responsive than the 323 and that the acceleration was a lot more refined. The 325 is better at passing on the highway and has an amazing ability to pull-away at speeds in excess of 90mph. Just my HO.

jel620

A few weeks ago I ordered my first bimmer! A steel gray 330i w/ SP, CWP, moonroof, and xenon. I didn't even consider the PP mainly because I think I would prefer the titanium trim over the wood. It was supposed to be built next week but my sales person said it was moved up a week and will be built this week instead (may already be built). Is this normal or is BMW slowing down production a little?

I am being quoted a .0021 MF and 59% residual for a 36 month/15k lease. Are these the right numbers? Are they going to change in April?

I will need to get snow or all season tires for the winter and would like to know what people are getting for wheels. Steel or alloy? Are there any steel wheels with BMW wheel covers that would look good on a 330i w/ SP?

Thanks!
Jamie

wrjohnsonpghpa

Cars that are "sold" are frequently/always moved up in production. No indication of a slow down in demand.

brave1heart

I have driven the 330ci step (very reluctantly but I had to do a comparo on the steering weight) and I found it utterly unstimulating to drive. The shifts were exceptionally smooth (almost seamless) but the feel for the car wasn't there. I have no interest at all in driving the 325 step, which is rated a FULL second slower than the 325 manual 0-60. I hope you understand that I don't think any less of you fellow BMW step owners. I do, however, think that you're missing a lot of the feel that manual owners have when driving. As far as the SMG, I guess I am one of the few people that doesn't drool over it. I understand that it performs better than a manual and offers great launches, etc. and I'd be intrigued to try it out. But no-one, and I mean no-one takes my manual away and lives ;o)

dave330i

While back, I looked at crutchfield.com, and found reasonably price recievers, and speakers.

dave330i

This board was slowing down. Can we talk about tires again as well? I drove a step while back, and it just wasn't for me.

nyccarguy

I have a friend who has a 2001 325Ci with PP, Leather, CWP, & Steptronic. His impressions: He loves the car. He likes cars, but is not a car nut like most of here on the board. He loves the way the car handles (he's used the word neutral which I was pretty impressed with), the fit and finish, he's even satisfied with the stock stereo (and he's an audiophile). He's had the car for about a year and says it "has a little trouble getting up hills." It took some time to get used to it because his previous car was a Mitsubishi 3000 GT. I know for a fact that he never uses the Manual Mode & Never puts the car in Sport Mode. I've only driven the car briefly, but he just told me that I could take his car out for an hour or two whenever I want (I may have to take him up on this offer soon). I found the car to be a bit sluggish (Though I do drive a Saab with Gobs of Turbo Torque). He said despite it being a bit sluggish that as long as he can afford another 325Ci when his lease is up, that's what he's getting!

nyccarguy

I was unsubscribed to the board. I thought everyone's computer was down or something!

And please, no tire or oil debate!

dave330i

0W30 or 5W30, that is the question.

nyccarguy

Every thread on Edmunds seems to get into the oil debate (What grade, How often) and tire debate (All Seasons vs. Snows). It just seems that the other boards start to argue them a week or 2 after we did here on the 3 series board. It is like a disease;) LOL!

dave330i

recieved the 1/02 issue of BMW magazine (no idea why I got it 2 month late). There are photos of E36 325 coupe that was involved in a 75 mph collision with an overturned Explorer. The exterior was totalled, but no real damage to the interior (besides the airbags), and the driver walked away.

Many complain about BMWs being overpriced, and what not, but I've always thought my life was worth few extra thousands.

nyccarguy

You can't put a price on safety. I've seen BMW magazine a few times before and that's my favorite section. I read an article once last year (I believe issue 3/01) that had a photo of a 540 that was totally smacked up. A driver of a tree truck was drunk and swerving and basically hit this woman head on going about 80mph! The woman and her 2 children in the back seat walked away unscathed. Then there was the 17 year old from Southern California (And you need an SUV in Southern California because...) who flipped his 3 month old X5 4.4i with 3 friends in the car and they all walked away (No wonder why insurance rates are so damn high). I've been toi body shops that deal exclusively with highline European cars. I've seen BMWs and Mercedes with the Hoods crunched up the the windshield and the doors still open and close!

dave330i

Just for you, leather vs. leatherette. BTW, I needed to re-subscribe as well.

1pierce

Step vs Manual: I'd love to have the manual, and the problem isn't teaching my wife to drive it. The problem is that she is very much against the entire purchase, as she believes the BMW is an extravagant, impractical sports car (an overly expensive toy). She thinks cars are transportation appliances, and likes Subarus, so that should tell you something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm getting the car anyway - I have gotten the battle to a detente, but not an outright victory. This battle is too important to me to surrender. If I go w/a manual, especially since she can't drive it and has said she has no interest in learning, this will only reinforce her argument that I'm buying an expensive toy - and give her cause to complain about the car for its entire life in our family.

If she wasn't involved, I'd be about 60-40 in favor of the manual - as a cost saver and for the added fun, though you can't beat an auto for those late night drives home from work, when you just want to listen to the radio and veg, or drink a slurpy, or talk on the cell, etc. But, I'll cave on this to avoid killing the deal altogether.

PS: About the manumatic mode: When I was driving the 323i, I got bored with it rather quickly. You feel no urgency (and sometimes forget) to downshift w/out a clutch. It seemed disconnected and somewhat foreign. Although the 323i does have the pattern reversed from the 325i, with forward push for up-shifting. I like the Step in sport-auto mode the best.

dave330i

If your wife already believes BMWs are overtly expensive toy, why not go all the way and get the manual?

How about trying the safety angle? Find photos of wreaked BMWs, where the drivers just walked away.

nyccarguy

I agree with Dave330i. Why not go for it all if she doesn't want it anyway. Besides, its better, this way she WON'T drive it;) And exactly how many pairs of Black shoes does your wife have?

1pierce

HK: While I know that everybody's ears and taste is different, I really hated the base stereo in my brother's 323i. It was flat and mushy on high notes, tested with several CDs. It just murdered jazz music. I looked hard at the speakers, and could not see an easy way to access them to change them out myself. Other than the color, the HK option is the only thing I'm sure about for my car.

Tires: I'm a convert to the thinking of this site. I no longer fear buying winter tires as a reason to not get the SP. Brave's logic about the cost savings of making the SP tires last for the life of the lease is a compelling factor. The cost of those 17" SP tires is steep, and they only last 15-20,000 miles, so even the second set will be almost gone when the lease is up! I might even go with more of a performance all-season for winter, rather than a dedicated snow tire.

Without the SP, you can't get the suspension tuning (in a 325i). Once I have that, I can vary the tire package anyway I like. If I don't get the SP, I'm afraid that I'll always wonder how much better handling my car could be - plus the SP wheels, tires, seats and steering wheel just look better than the standard setup.

drcr

If you are drinking slurpies in the car you shouldn't be allowed to purchase a BMW

I had a similar sell. Push the safety, gas mileage and the fact that we spend a fair amount of time in it so why not enjoy the experience.

Also, you really can get in a decent 3er for ~ $30k. I got a '01 325i [non-permissible content removed]/Silver, Sport, 5spd, gray leather, moon, wood, (wheel locks + mats "thrown in") and added the armrest after ($179 - circle), 5.9% for $30,410 + tax --no other fees. That is less than a Pathfinder LE, close to a loaded Accord.

1pierce

Are you guys married? My wife is a world-class pouter, who can take the joy out of this experience in a heartbeat if I don't play it right.

Seriously though, the safety angle is a good one, and I am playing that for all its worth with the stability control/brake assist system and all those air-bags (that stuff appeals to her sensibility-did I mention she also likes Volvos?)

She drives the car about twice a month - usually at my suggestion because I need her car. We can't have a car that only one of us can drive - otherwise, I'll have to fill the backseat with car seats to mirror our van. Right now, the one who takes the kids uses the van, and the other uses my car. Its not so bad. Pity me for needing four doors more than for needing the auto. The 325ci - now THAT is the car I really want!

mschukar

While back, I looked at crutchfield.com, and found reasonably priced receivers, and speakers

I don't doubt that you could buy 6 speakers and an amp for less than $600, but, for that price, you may not be any better than the stock system, let alone the HK upgrade. When I replaced the system in my Miata 6 years ago, I bought an Alpine head unit, amp and one pair of Boston Acoustics speakers for around $1000 installed. Take away the head unit and you've got $600 and only two speakers.

Perhaps if you could get a $600 refund by leaving out the stock system you could spend $1200 and get a better system.

-Murray

dave330i

Not married, and looks like I won't for a while either. Find a BMW magazine (maybe the dealer might have some). They usually have couple of photos of totalled BMWs with interiors intact.

Personally, I care more about the transmission vs. number of doors, but that's just me.

nyccarguy

that's a sore subject around here too...don't yak and drive unless you have a hands free kit.

And you made a point that after a rough day at work you just want to relax and drive home without really thinking about anything. If that's the case, then buy a Lexus ES300. Driving a stick home after work can be rewarding...even in traffic. Once that traffic lets up, just start rowing through all those gears and then you'll really enjoy the 3 series!

1pierce

OK, make that a milkshake. And I am very neat.

If I go SP, I'll be buying the armrest and installing it myself. I better sift through the posts and get the info on that. I saw it discussed again last week? Somebody referenced a site where they had installation instructions. I hope it is easy. Sometimes this aftermarket do it yourself stuff looks easy and is really hard. It took me 2 hours to install the trunk net in my Maxima, after the little hook fell down inside the back panel of the trunk. And I could fit inside that trunk lying down.

brave1heart

You need an auto so you could "listen to the radio and veg, or drink a slurpy, or talk on the cell, etc." What do you mean, I can do all of these at the same time and still shift for myself. Only thing is, you must be good at steering with your knees (just kidding, OK, safety police?)

Well, if the decision were entirely up to you and you are still 60/40% manual/auto, then please stop using your wife as an excuse. You are not convinced that you really want a manual. Period. As far as relationships/marriages in general, if you really want something that will make you happy, your spouse will understand. You fight a little, you work it out, she understands, you compromise somewhere else (damn curtains + fresh flowers every week) and you both get what you want. If she doesn't care about what makes you really happy, then you're with the wrong person...It's a two-way process and in an equal relationships it is a wash in the end...Whatever you do, listen to Dr. Phil, he knows it all ;o)

1pierce

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't live in New York, and I have no problem with people using cell phones while driving. I have more control of my car with one hand than most people do with two (company of this board excluded, of course).

Your posts are usually credible, and you seem to have a sense of humor, so I don't want this to become a political debate. Lets just say some of us like our lives a lot less regulated and politically correct than what they've become over the last 10 years. That's why we don't live in states like NY and CA.

drcr

I'm on and off again on the board so I missed it. I don't know how people can consistently post all day every day? If I did I wouldn't get a thing done. Anyway, I did the install and it was relatively simple and took about a hour. Huh, 2 hrs for a trunk net? You should budget a couple then. You will need a couple of basic tools as well. Circlebmw had the instructions (pretty sure). Good luck in deciding.

BTW what does your wife drive? It may help the board in building your case. Maybe throw in 2 backrubs a week for the life of the car!

1pierce

You're right, I'm not totally convinced. But, given all the variables, fun, cost, convenience, comfort, etc.,...I'd probably opt for the manual. Actually, my preference varies depending on the situation. My wife's resistance makes the decision easier, if more expensive.

drcr

I could care either way but eating and fiddling w/ the radio cause more accidents than cell phone use. Please don't ask me to qoute the source.

lets add no radio use and slurpies to teh bill

brave1heart

We're here to make sure you don't sell yourself short, though ;o)

mschukar

Heck, what about swapping both the stock wheels and tires for the SP wheels/tires

I didn't check the prices, but my guess is you'd spend $200 per tire and the same or more per rim. So, unless you could sell the stock tires and rims for $600 or $800 (good luck), you wouldn't save any money and you'd miss out on the suspension, seats & 3 spoke steering wheel. My dealer wouldn't let me swap rims other than paying retail for the new rims and keeping the old.

-Murray

BTW, I'd get the SP again in a heartbeat!

1pierce

I can't describe the depth of pain that trunk net caused me, and I'm mechanically inclined, with pretty good dexterity and craftsmanship. This thing was from hell. I've renovated my entire house by myself, and never been so frustrated. The problem was installing the studs that the net hooks to.

The big question is: Can you get good access to work installing the armrest? I'm getting kind of psyched about doing it.

My wife drives a Caravan (we have 3 sons under 10)- but she would prefer a Volvo 60 series sedan or wagon or a Subaru Outback.

dave330i

I realize high end audio can get expensive, but I don't believe you need to go that high to better the stock or HK system. When I listened to both, I wasn't that impressed with HK.

dave330i

There's a nice used 400 hp Volvo station wagon on ebay.

nyccarguy

I wasn't trying to turn this into a political debate. And I'm definitely against political correctness. If I offended you in any way, I apologize. I'm just trying to convince you to get your 3 series with a stick;) We have a law here in NY that bans hand held cell phones from being used while driving. I used to think that it was no big deal to drive and talk at the same time until I used a headset for the first time. I realized it is so much easier to concentrate on driving. But I'm not trying to start a political debate.

"you seem to have a sense of humor" Thanks! I'll take that as a compliment.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Pittsburgh. I've got family there!

wrjohnsonpghpa

Don't let these guys intimidate you into saying you want the stick. The fact of the matter is somedays you could feel like shifting and some days you won't. That was your point about the slurpy, wasn't it? Just think what it would be like inching along the Parkway East/West at rush hour or through the Hartwood Acres each Christmas with a stick. Your leg will get a workout!

shipo

Speedo...

I drove through the snow and such this morning from Northern New Jersey to Southern New Hampshire, during the drive I did the "Speedo Test". I set the cruise control at 70mph on a (relatively) flat section of the New York State Thruway and then reset the “Average Speed” display on the OBC. Hmmmm…

Maybe my car is an anomaly, because, the OBC showed my Average Speed as 70.5mph after about a 10 minute run (a big truck pulled out in front of me, effectively ending the test).

BMW Crashes...

I was reading the 5-Series brochure recently, and in it they had a letter from one of our fellow BMW drivers. Basically, she said that she was driving down the road with her 3 month old daughter in the back seat (properly restrained) of a new (800 miles) 540i(?), when a stolen SUV (attempting to outrun the police) hit her head on. According to the letter, “her daughter did not even wake up”, and the Paramedics said, “It’s cars like this that make our jobs easier, in most accidents of this type, the occupants are either seriously injured, or worse.” She went on to say that when her husband picked her and their daughter from the hospital, she told him, “I know that I was against buying an expensive toy like the BMW, however, that car just saved my life, I don’t ever want to drive anything else again.”

The other half...

For those of y’all having a problem convincing your other half to pop for a BMW, selling the “Safety” aspect of the car might be just enough to tip the balance. ;-)

Harman Kardon...

Admission: I am not an audiophile. That said, I have to agree with the argument that says that the extra $600 for the HK system on a 325i (I paid it too for my 1999 328i) is very inexpensive for the quality of the upgrade. Is the HK system the “Do all to end all” sound system, of course not, however, for the six bills, you would be hard pressed to come up with a better system. A couple of other factors that I like about the HK system as opposed to an aftermarket system are 1) Steering Wheel control of the station/track and the loudness, and 2) the automatic loudness adjustment based upon the speed of your car (I almost never have to adjust the sound level when changing speeds, and I like that).

Best Regards,
Shipo

millerro3

I was testing my car the other night, and I came up with the same results:) It was off like .5 mph.

Maybe BMW has remedied the situation?

hmm

Rob

ek01

Hi Folks.

I am in the process of purchasing a station wagon for my family and I am leaning towards the 325xi touring but concerned if there is enough umph in the auto. I took one out for a test drive and it was a very nice ride but not a rocket. Typical cargo is two adults, one child and some bikes on the back. I think it is ok for the city (90% of driving) but I was wondering about the accleration onto the highway and passing. We rarely go past 130km/h. Apprciate your input.