BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

brave1heart

Back in college years ago, we played a product development game. We had 5 teams that all started with 20% market share. You spend money on the 4 'P's of marketing: Product, Place, Promotion and then determine the Price. Our team had the crazy idea of saving development costs and instead of developing 2 products (one upscale and one downmarket), we only built one product with the thought of marketing it differently to different segments of the market. The product that got better promotion was considerably more expensive than the identical "downmarketed" product. By the end of the semester, our team owned ~ 80% of the total market and we drove most other teams out of business. It is a lot like what BMW is doing with the new 325 model that will have a detuned 330 engine. You'd probably be able to retune it back to levels higher than the 330 with less money than the difference you'd have to pay for the 330 engine (adjusted for the additional standard equipment). And judging by people's reaction on this and other boards, the strategy works brilliantly!! If I am forced to shop for a new 3-series, I'll probably take the 325.

erickpl

so you use the Redline D4ATF even for a manual?

How much did it improve the shifting? Mine is noticably notchy after having done the Redline fluid in my Wrangler.

-Paul

brave1heart

Correct, Redline D4ATF even for a manual!

It made a night and day difference in my car and the 2 or 3 other E46 cars that we did for CCA friends. Smooth as butter ;o)

jrkfla

need to replace current tires. Will sell car in a year or so, so want to make sure i have the proper tires on car to sell. Dont drive too fast and am very focused on trying to quiet my ride a bit. Livein florida so its alot f highway driving and not many twisting country roads. Looking at:

potenza re950
potenza pole position
bmw dealer wants continentals

thanks

erickpl

Thanks for the feedback. We have a redline dealer 2 miles from my house.

WOO HOO!

-Paul

lovebmw330i

How do you rotate them side to side?
Thanks,
Mike

blueguydotcom

enjoy...

http://www.blue-guy.com/images/BimmerInvoice1.png
http://www.blue-guy.com/images/Bimmerinvoice2.png

Hard to beat the ED invoice price +1000.

blueguydotcom

I dunno, the feature benefits, the power benefits are so much more on the 330i. Figure with the added weight and such the 325i and 330i are really no faster than the last gen.

Doesn't matter, even if I max out a 330i with the stuff I want but don't need (park distance and leather come to mind) on top of the mandatory metallic paint and sp package, I'm still seeing 36k for ED with dealer profit of 1k. That's a ludicrous deal, IMHO. 15% off the msrp, isn't too shabby.

brave1heart

Definitely Michelin PS2 if you are looking in that price range!!

brave1heart

I don't. Front to rear only!!

brave1heart

Blueguy - I looked at the invoice pricing that was posted on boards this morning. All I can say is the new cars are priced to kill and cover an enormous range of buyers. You can buy a base 325i with just the sport package and probably still keep it close to $30,000 (stunning value IMO!) even with a local delivery or you could totally load up a 330i and the price climbs to over $50,000. Whoa, a non-M 3-series that costs over 50 grand... and then you can still throw in AWD for another couple grand. Amazing!! There's something for everyone in here... I think pricing is going a little bit the Porsche way: attractive base price for entry-level buyers but it escalates fast and those flush with cash wouldn't mind it ;o)

I noticed that the difference between the 325 and 330 has shrunk when you adjust for the options (the standard xenons, upgraded stereo, and memory power seats in the 330i cost $3,000 to get individually). So it seems that if you do want those options, the difference between the 325 and the 330 will be only 3 grand (closer to $2,500 for ED) for which you get a much better tuned engine, bigger brakes, etc... Brilliant marketing and flexible pricing - I think they are learning from the E46 models where the price premium between the 325 and 330 was just too high. The E90 is completely off my radar screen in terms of shopping (I am perfectly happy with my E46 325i) so I don't know what deals people are getting but I'd be amazed if you could get anything much below MSRP until after the initial allocations in the fall. If you are leasing and doing an ED, sure - the 330 is even more attractive comparatively.

blueguydotcom

I'm stunned at how cheap the 330i is compared to the e46 330is. Feature rich and price is low. Nice.

I'm not needing a new car until may of 06, so I expect ED will probably be my only option. I'm kinda excited at the prospect of getting a car with more features for 4k less than I paid originally.

Now hopefully the car is fun to drive. Otherwise I hear the siren song of Miata.

selm

I played the same game. Our product was shoes and did my team do terrible.

What happens to resale value on the 325i once/if BMW only offers the 330i and maybe a 335i in the future? Did the 323i take a hit?

lovebmw330i

The front and rear are different sizes! I have the Sports Package.

blueguydotcom

http://blue-guy.com/images/BimmerInvoice.pdf

How about easy to read pdfs then?

brave1heart

I doubt anyone can predict future resale value while factoring unknown product introductions. I think pricing policies like the zero-percent financing and huge cash rebates from GM affect used car values (yes, even of BMWs) a lot more than new model introductions... GM did a lot of damage to the whole car industry, more so to U.S. manufacturers but in the end, all used car values are impacted when the new cars are practically given away....

dl7265

Case in Point. Local AD
2005 Cadillac Escalade MSRP $57,000.00 Sales price $40,300.00.
Not just 1, they have about 50 to unload.
DL

brave1heart

Wow, that's a huge discount off of MSRP. I think the SUVs are taking a big hit due to the rising gas prices. Just curious, does it really impact your purchasing decisions that much guys? I mean, if you drive an average of 1,000 miles a month and only get 15 mpg, that's 70 gallons of gas, right? Even if gas goes up 50 cents a gallon, that's only $35/mo difference. How is it that someone in the market for a luxury SUV would even care about it enough to impact their purchasing decisions? I hear on the radio ads from a casino nearby that is giving away gas money to people just to get them into the casino. Now home heating prices, that's something that a lot families esp. in the snowbelt will feel...

dl7265

Well makes you wonder if they are still making money at that price.I do have its evil twin a Carbon Metalic Yukon. On my mileage it works out to a couple hundered in a year, not enough to take a 5k hit in a resale in my book.I got a few offers last week on trade and they were still $1k-1500 over trade in value.What that might be in two months when my E90 arrives is unknown...

DL

div2

I keep hearing people say that they "need" to buy a new fuel efficient car to "save on gas" when they really just want an excuse to purchase a new car. The cost of the new car plus depreciation plus increased taxes/insurance is almost always several orders of magnitude greater than any savings realized by the increased fuel economy. Same thing with people selling older cars because they need more maintenance. Do the bloody math. What's that saying about a fool and his/her money?

blueguydotcom

keep hearing people say that they "need" to buy a new fuel efficient car to "save on gas" when they really just want an excuse to purchase a new car. The cost of the new car plus depreciation plus increased taxes/insurance is almost always several orders of magnitude greater than any savings realized by the increased fuel economy. Same thing with people selling older cars because they need more maintenance. Do the bloody math. What's that saying about a fool and his/her money?

It can't all be measured in dollars though. for instance, back in 2001 I had a 91 nissan stanza - but it was getting old. about once every 5-6 months something would fail. something small, something large but always that'd cost me money and time. so maybe i was spending 2k a year on upkeep.

i leased a car, wrote off the lease and that car had two years free service. I was spending about 2k a year on the lease after tax deductions. same money spent but the car was decidely safer, faster and more fun. Oh but I sold the stanza for 2k, so in reality I had one year for free.

It can be cheaper. but more importantly it can alleviate headaches and save time. my time and energy is worth more to me than having to deal with a dodgy car that's no longer fun.

lovebmw330i

Does anyone that has a BMW 330 with the premium sound option have the problem of the Harmon Kardon silver logo on the rear speakers causing a glare on the back window? The logo is silver and when the sun hits it causes a silver glare like a knife on the right and left. Any suggestions other than just covering the logo on the speakers?
Thanks,
Mike

brave1heart

You can take extreme examples of owning a new car vs. owning an old car and argue either side convincingly. Your numbers don't add up - a ZHP will cost a lot more than 2 grand after-tax a year to lease, insure, and maintain. I believe the lease alone is at least $500-600/mo without a security deposit (I'd love to know how you write off 4 grand on a 6+ grand lease every year - you must have friends at the IRS). You can argue that a security deposit makes the lease cheaper but then you'd be introducing additional risk because you do lose the security deposit if your leased car gets totaled. I too can come up with an extreme example when you just dropped a couple of grand on a new lease, drove the car off the lot, got it totaled and went home 2 grand poorer and without a new car. Not to mention that you may not even have gap insurance...

In an average case scenario, your costs will be directly proportional to the cost of the asset that you employ (own, lease, whatever). A $2,000 asset will on average cost significantly less to use than a $40,000 asset. You can argue that your time is way too expensive and important and a $40,000 car gives you an extra layer of insurance against downtime. But that insurance is not free. You can also argue that you are having a lot more fun driving the ZHP per dollar spent. I'll believe that!! But you can hardly convince anyone here that a $40,000 asset is almost as cheap to own/lease as a used Nissan valued at $2,000. Didn't you drop over a grand on new tires alone for the ZHP 10,000 miles into the lease?!

blueguydotcom

ou can take extreme examples of owning a new car vs. owning an old car and argue either side convincingly. Your numbers don't add up - a ZHP will cost a lot more than 2 grand after-tax a year to lease, insure, and maintain.

I never said it was my zhp. And I don't think it's an extreme example. 2k a year in upkeep on a car over 7 years old with over 125k miles seems reasonable.

I believe the lease alone is at least $500-600/mo without a security deposit (I'd love to know how you write off 4 grand on a 6+ grand lease every year - you must have friends at the IRS).

When i did write my cars off for business, i wrote off everything, gas, tires, etc.

Not to mention that you may not even have gap insurance...

BMWFS comes with gap.

Never said it was the bmw, it was a jetta turbo. My ZHP is simply leased, no tricks, nothing shady for the gov't.

div2

Yeah, I never said you shouldn't spend money on a car you really, really want-I simply said you usually can't make a solid financial case for doing so. In my case, I don't want a new car nearly as much as I want a pristine Henna Red M1 in 5-6 years. Plus, I'm about ready to pull the trigger an a clean but inexpensive K75S AND the Club Sport needs a new set of rotors and pads for the instructing season. We've all got our priorities...;)
As for older cars being expensive to run, the maintenance and repair costs for my "ancient" fleet average as follows:
1995 Club Sport 95000 miles: $35 per month(including three sets of tires)
1997 528iA 115000 miles: $85 per month(including one set of tires)
1999 Wrangler Sahara 85000 miles: $45 per month(no tires yet)
Wonder what I could lease for $165 a month?

kubby

I will be making a purchase this week of my first BMW and am pretty fired up. My two options are an 01 325i, 40,000 miles, basic package for $19,950 or an 01 330i, 40,000 miles, sport & premium package for $23,950. Obviously I am leaning towards the 330. I like the extra power, power seats and the HK stereo, wheels, etc...

My concern is over the cost of the upkeep. Would the 325 be more reliable because of the lack of features? How reliable are these cars based on the year and the model? I plan on keeping which ever one I decide on for at least 5 years. What do you think? Also, what do you think about the prices? I may be able to haggle both down another grand or so. Thanks for your help!

kyfdx

1) Reliability and maintenance costs should be identical, except for tires.. The sport package has summer tires (or at least it did when new) and they wear out a lot faster..

2) The 330i will use more gas around town, but is probably identical on the highway.. Not enough of a difference to matter.

3) The difference between asking prices seems about right.. I'd say it should be closer, but it sounds like the 330 has a nicer options package.. If the 325i doesn't have the premium package (no power seats?), then I'd definitely get the 330i.

Drive a hard bargain... You might be able to get a couple thou off.. If you are keeping the car for five years, definitely get the one you want.

brave1heart

The prices sound OK. Sure, there are fewer things to break with fewer options, so the 325i will likely be chaper to maintain. That said, they should both be equally as reliable if they had the same options. Do you really need power seats? Those weigh quite a bit, do not have thigh support (unlike the manual sport package seats) and can be expensive to fix if they break.

kyfdx

The sport package seats have thigh support, whether power or not.... It doesn't sound like the 325i has the sport package at all....

I'd get the 330i just for the sport package (40HP won't hurt, either).

brave1heart

My '01 325i with 74K miles on it cost me < 10 cents a mile in maintenance (everything included). I have done a lot of preventative maintenace too, not to mention that at least half the money has gone into track-related expenses (pads, rotors, tires, etc...) Not too shabby considering the tach needle has spent a lot of time above 6,000 RPMs ;o)

div2

Yes, preventative maintenance is the key; I have to keep the Club Sport above 4500 rpm to keep things interesting. Speaking of interesting, I recently had some low-rent mid life crisis guy(bald spot, gold chains, mirrored sunglasses) in an older Mustang 5.0 convertible try to stick with me on a winding road. I guess the old V8 was almost DOA or the numbskull kept it in fifth gear because not only did I annihilate him in the corners but I pulled away on the straights as well. After about five miles of fun I had to stop and turn left. I guess the guy didn't like being humiliated-by a furrin' four banger no less-in front of his flashy/trashy big-haired companion because he passed me on the right shoulder, blew his horn, and shot me the bird. My ten year old son almost laughed until he cried...

brave1heart

That's a good story. Safe to say he didn't get any that night - couldn't even keep up with a wimpy 4-banger and probably messed up his girlfriend's big hair...

I get a kick out of blowing more powerful cars at the track too. The first time I got signed off to solo at WGI, I caught up with a slightly modified E36 M3 driven by a driver that had already been signed off. I was about 200 ft behind entering Turn 2 (the esses) and when we tracked out for the back straight, I was getting close to his tail and carrying a bit more speed. My 325i is really fast at 6K RPMs in 4-th gear!! He waived me through and a couple of laps later my instructor said "I think I'll have to sign you off." I could barely contain my excitement but preferred to just shut up so I don't mess up anything...

It will be really interesting to see how well we do at One Lap in a month. There are 4 Subaru STi (one of them pumping 500+ HP), a Dodge Magnum, an Infiniti G35, a 328i and a couple of souped up M-Bs in my Mid-Priced sedan class. Most are driven by Lap Dogs...

div2

Last year one guy ran a hot Mercedes down one of the dragstrips for his first time. He was instructed to keep his foot in it and he did-right off the end of the pavement...

brave1heart

lol, who says Darwin's theory doesn't work...

BTW, have you ever used the Pastelub 2400 product from gwrauto.com? Called them today, they sold me that and a ceramic compound for the caliper guiding pins (they might both be overkill for my application) but also wanted to sell me a $50 kit that allows you to measure RA (a roughness index used for rotors) which allows you to determine if the rotors are smooth enough (but not too smooth) and supposedly helps with the bed-in process. I may give it a try - I asked them for instructions for now. They really seem to know what they are talking about. Do you wash your rotors with water and soap? Burnish them (cross-hatch, etc.) while they are rotating?

squirtdad

Any feedback of handling/driving impressions between 325i (sp) and Sub Legacy GT.
I know this is not an apple to apple comparison, but am finding forum input very helpful. thanks

kyfdx

Did you ever find out what you were scheduled for in Cleveland?

regards,
kyfdx

div2

Nope, I haven't used anything like that; I usually just wipe down new rotors with brake cleaner or lacquer thinner. I've always understood that BMW says NOT to lube the guide pins-I guess that they are worried about the lube attracting dirt and grunge. I was planning to put new pins and bushings in the calipers but I saw that Bavarian Auto now sells a kit with machined steel caliper bushings and pins-the idea being to remove any flex from the bushing/pin interface. Do you know anyone that's tried them?

div2

I checked and I'm not scheduled to drive-so I'm going to skip it. Too many things on my plate that weekend...:(

brave1heart

<<< Do you know anyone that's tried them?>>>

I don't. Will let you know if I find out.

kyfdx

Well... it turns out that the "3 drive" isn't about driving either.... You just get to drive your own car around behind the "new 3" in a parade....

I think I am also skipping it.. the only reason I considered it, is that I already had the day scheduled off from work..

On another note, the Susan G. Komen Foundation event is in October... I think I'll sign up for that... I've heard you get to drive multiple cars..

regards,
kyfdx

brave1heart

Noooo, what a bummer. Glad I didn't even try to sign up for it... Shipo will be in for a big surprise.

blueguydotcom

If I can't drive the e90, I'm not gonna take the day off from work.

shipo

Shipo was surprised alright, he never made it. Unfortunately he made the decision to have me print out directions from Yahoo! Maps only, instructing me not to take the extra time to fetch a MapQuest version as well. The Yahoo! driving directions had him getting off at an exit from I-93 that was two exits away from where the event was actually being held. The directions then led him to/through such a confusing array of Round-Abouts, turns and road name changes in an area with poor signage (to say the least), that he got very lost. He spent the better part of 45 minutes trying to follow the directions only to call "No Joy!" at about 10:15 this morning and heading back home. Upon arriving back here at the Crib (and driving over 140 in total) he had me check MapQuest only to find that he had driven right past it (while still on I-93).

He then instructed me to ALWAYS print out directions from both services.

Best Regards,
Shipo's computer (he is having a nap right about now)

brave1heart

Shipo, what a story. And people wonder why Boston drivers are so crazy. It's all those out-of-town people wreaking havoc on the already complicated flow of traffic in and around town )

kominsky

Brave, you pegged that one! When we were up there last year, I was amazed at the traffic lanes that mysteriously ended on the other side of an intersection, the street signs hidden up in the girders of bridges, and the multitude of other obstacles encountered. Fortunately, despite all the bad I had heard about Boston drivers, it seemed that someone was always looking out for me and willing to let me back into a lane or cross two lanes of traffic to get back on track... they probably felt sorry for the "stupid tourist". :-)

nyccarguy

I love the ROTARIES in Mass!

shipo

Hehe, and I thought that the cause of the problem was the Boston drivers that would change from the right lane to the left lane (with two or more lanes inbetween) in one swell foop, and with nary a signal to be seen. Silly me. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

P.S.

Thanks to my laptop for standing in for me, driving an automatic transmissioned minivan really made me sleepy. ;-)

brave1heart

I think you were driving the minivan on that trip to Boston, right? It's more likely other drivers thought you were hopeless and just let you through then. You can't get away that easily in a BMW coupe - you have to WIN the right of way with it ;o) And even if you do win it, they'll try to get you back...

kominsky

Yep, we had her Odyssey. The tranny went into meltdown while we were up there. Maybe the trail of smoke and flying cogs is what kept everyone back.

brave1heart