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Comments
But I think that they should jack down the price of both the E320 and E500, because there will be too many buyers that are stuck whether or not to get an E320/E500 or LS430/Q45 at that price.
Does Mercedes still offer the Motorola Timeport digital phone? I didn't see that on the 2003 E-class booklet, but they still have the Moto V60.
Interestingly there is a new SL350.
M
I got the opportunity to drive my first Mercedes yesterday, and I must admit that it was an experience. I have shunned Mercedes in the past...being a Lexus fanatic for a long time. I went into my local dealership, and spent about an hour with a really knowledgeable sales associate, and we took a drive in a 2002 S-430.
I was impressed with the fit and overall quality of the car as a whole. Not being familiar with the S 430, I let the associate give me the "grand spiel" of why Mercedes is the best in the world. I did see options I had never seen before, but I have to question the reliability of these things after the warranty period ends. In my opinion, Mercedes has never been the poster child for reliability, as I have friends who still literally CRY every time they have to bring their cars in for repair. I am still not convinced that I should part with 80 large for this car.
The suspension was first rate as it had the "sport" version. Luckily I live in California, because I could imagine how rust and corrosion could affect this system in the years to come.
I also found the engine to be smooth, but no where near as powerful as the Lexus 430 V8. The LS is definitely faster, and this same 4.3 Lexus engine in the GS 430 would run away and hide from the Mercedes. Could be the fact that there are 24 valves (3 per cylinder in the Mercedes), and 32 valves (4 per cylinder in the Lexus). If I want sheer luxury, the Mercedes would win in spades. It does have character. Mercedes has no timing belt, and the Lexus needs a belt change at 90,000 miles.
The interior room is phenomenal in the Mercedes. This car will really spoil you in the area of comfort. I am just spoiled for power, and this car does not have it when I compare it to the Lexus. I would have to spend 90,000 dollars PLUS to get a car that has as much power as an LS-430. That would be the S 500, which is also a great car. The options are great, as long as they work.
It is truly a marvelous car, but I still have some reservations about how it will fare in the long run.
Any comments on my comments will be appreciated.
Thanks,
GSEREP1
I can't imagine why you find the "S" to have better comfort and more room than the LS430. Handling and image, maybe, but the LS really doesn't skimp of creature comforts. Listen to the high end stereo. It'll blow you away.
"Mercedes-Benz. As a followup to last week's 'On The Table' item about how the sales slide for the S-Class is becoming a real problem, the Detroit area Mercedes-Benz dealers ran an ad in this week's Detroit Free Press that promoted heavily incentivized 48-month leases on the 2002 S430 and S500, which were several hundred dollars per month cheaper than ever before. It seems that someone at M-B headquarters is aware of the situation. Is the 'Come On Down!' national S-Class Sales Event right around the corner?"
On the other side of the coin, it is hard to put my finger on it, but the Mercedes has a different feel to it than the Lexus when driving. But down in my heart, I know that the Lexus is more reliable. I guess that Mercedes owners are a loyal lot, just like Lexus owners. I felt a certain "smugness" amongst the people in the showroom and service department. Nothing wrong with having the money to spend on such a high value vehicle, but I don't buy a car for STATUS. I don't feel the need to FLAUNT, and I feel that owning a Mercedes does that for you. The salesperson kept saying how this car would make me feel, and how people would see me in it. Not sure if that is always a positive thing. I know how I felt about Mercedes drivers in the past.
Interesting side note: I had to make a run to Long Beach, California from San Diego yesterday, in my little 2001 Nissan Sentra, and we had a traffic jam about 1/2 way up on Interstate 5. Cars were stopped initially, and people were carefully edging around this one car. When I finally got to where the hold-up was, I found an IMMACULATE black late model Mercedes stuck in the middle lane with 4 business types all on cellphones. The car would not start, and they were obviously late for a meeting. The driver was not amused, and it was hot yesterday. I passed by in comfort in my $15,000 Sentra while they were inside sweating while trying to conduct business.
I know that "things" happen to the best of us, but I have YET to see a late model LS-430, or GS-430 stuck on the highway awaiting a tow truck. I have seen Mercedes vehicles broken down on the road more than once, and there always seems to be one rear taillight burned out, or one light that is stuck "on" and burning brightly, while all the others are out, or glowing softly. The drivers seem oblivious to the fact that their rear lights are not working properly. This is just my observation..maybe others see it the same way that I do.
Mercedes promises free maintenance for 4 years/50,000 miles. This includes oil changes. The salesperson said that oil changes are every 9500 miles, and that 3 to 4 thousand mile oil changes (Like Lexus) are not necessary. 9500 miles seems like quite long time for oil, but my daughter's VW Beetle has 10,000 mile oil change intervals. I always change sooner than that (about 5000 miles). I would assume that Mercedes uses synthetic oil in the engine to last that long. Maybe it is a "german" thing. I got the whole pitch about German engineering, and how superior it is to anything else. I didn't buy it of course, because I have had some wonderful japanese engines that did everything I wanted them to do, and more....RELIABLY!
Overall though, the Mercedes has a "safe" feel to it. The doors close by power assist once the door latch gets to the first click. You know that you are driving a heavy safe car. With the sport package, it comes with 18 inch wheels and tires, and even though they are big, the ride is smooth.
As far as pricing goes, Mercedes seems to be coming down off of their high prices somewhat on the remaining 2002 cars. The S-430 I looked at had a $82,000 MSRP, but was on sale for $74,500, which is under invoice. This car will probably be worth much less next year after the new car comes out. Their pricing is getting pretty aggressive.... but WHY???
Now for a negative for Lexus. On the 2003 LS 430, the 17 inch wheel/tire option will be offered for the first time. If I have say anything negative about that Lexus wheel/tire combo, it would be that this is not the smoothest combination around. On the GS 400 or 430, with the 17 inch combination, tire noise is something that I have had to live with. Perhaps it is in the choice of tires, but that noise is always present. I haven't found a perfect tire/wheel combination yet in 17 inch. The 16 inch tires are the smoothest, and quietest, and the wear is much longer and predictable. The handling is just not as good. Let's hope that the LS doesn't inherit the same noise characteristics as the GS with the 17's.
I think that I will wait a while longer before going into a Mercedes. I have talked about "stuffy Mercedes owners" for so long, I am not sure if I want to join their ranks just yet.
GSEREP1
believe it or not, i actually like the hard standard 'premium" leathe more than the nappa because you get more of a grip, but i wish that the front seats were not as big.
go to mbusa.com where they have info (future into) of the 2003 S-class.
But the back seat of the Mercedes IS bigger, than the LS. The back seat feels more secure, even though I like so many other things about the Lexus. They MAY have the same dimensions, but the Mercedes actually feels more spacious in my opinion, and therefore to ME, it appears that it would be more comfortable. It IS possible for 2 vehicles to have identical dimensions, and yet have one that has better use, or execution of that space. One will just feel better to some folks, and the other will to someone else.
I will give Mercedes the advantage in that department. I will go back to Lexus today and try both the front and rear seat space again.
Let me clear up a few misconceptions. I did not mean to imply that Lexus requires a 3000 mile oil change interval. To the contrary, I knew that it was 7500. My apologies if I said it wrong. The MERCEDES DEALER was using the 9500 mile drain interval as an advantage over the Lexus, but it did not come out right. He tried figuring out cost savings of oil service at 9500 miles VS 3000. I apologize wholeheartedly. You are right about the car not needing an oil change at 3000 miles. That is a JIFFY LUBE mentality. NUFF SAID!
The other thing is: I originally went to Mercedes to look at the E 430 and E 500, but for some reason, the sales associate and I gravitated towards the S class. I think that the E class with either the 4.3 or the 5L engine would be quicker and more fuel efficient because of the reduced weight overall. I liked the S class in many respects, but the engine performance was sorely lacking...especially after having driven both the GS 400 and the newer GS 430 over the years. Those 32 valves and Variable Timing execution by Lexus is hard to beat.
I'll keep in touch! Thanks for all the wonderful comments.
GSEREP1
Yes I have sat in the back of both. Doesn't change the measurements "overall". And the Benz advantage in back seat is legroom only. Headroom and shoulder room are virtually identical. So sorry merckx, the Benz does not enjoy a significantly larger back seat based on their own numbers and whether you have sat in back of both or not. And, while not an interior room issue, remember that Lexus does all of this and has a much larger trunk at the same time.
My only point, while not demeaning either vehicle and calling both fine, was to correct two misperceptions - about interior space and oil change frequency. The numbers don't lie.
Mercedes does some things differently from Lexus, the mindset is a little different. A Mercedes is pretty much a "custom" car compared to a Lexus. The options are endless and the features are space age in some cases. I can understand your concerns about reliability over the long haul. If you're really that bothered by the long-term reliability factor, just lease it.
vistacruiser,
Why do you take the bs from that page as the truth. Don't you know that sales of a car that is about to be replaced always "slide" right before the new car appears. I see no panic from Lexus in 2000 when the LS400 fell off the chart pending the arrivial of the LS430. Same with the 2001 7-Series. Same with the 2002 E-Class, it has "slide" all year, but then they sold over 1800 of the 2003 E's in one week(!). Any Benz dealer right now will openly tell you they want to "deal" on the remaining 2002 S-Classes. Why is that whenever something natural happens at MB it's taken as the end of MB or some type of big disaster?
flint350,
Numbers don't lie, nor do they tell the whole story. The cubic feet stuff is about as real as where that extra space is located. The S-Class backseat is roomier.
M
I do not have much info on this particular model i.e. its strengths, weaknesses, things to watch for, etc.
I am planning to have it inspected by a mechanic, however I will appreciate if anyone can provide me with some hints on what to look for in this particular model before purchasing one.
Thanks.
Pat, I also agree this thread got skewed (possibly by me) so that it more appropriately belongs in the comparo board. I'll stop.
I really enjoyed your comment about that bright rear light on one side. You must be referring to a light INSIDE the car. I am talking about outside the car in the rear. This is supposed to be driving lights or stop lights. Driving lights are supposed to be illuminated dimmer than BRAKE lights, which are supposed to be BRIGHT when stopping, not while going 75 miles per hour. To be perfectly fair, I have seen that bright light (or light out) on BMW's too, but much more on older Mercedes.
Must be something about the electrical connectors in the sockets. They have 2 little strips inside, where each contact rests on one strip. Hopefully this has been redesigned on the later models.
Mercedes and other German cars have their strengths and weaknesses just like any other carmaker, but that light situation has been something that always bothered me about these cars.
NUFF SAID
GSEREP1
YES, the single brighter red light on the left side [of a left-hand drive car] is indeed the rear fog light. And it does work, as I can tell you as a early morning runner in an area that gets a lot of winter fog.
And yes, they were/are still std on most EU cars [MB, Volvo, SAAB, Jag, etc.] brought to the US, though I hear that BMW has recently been disabling the rear fog for reasons that escape me.
There is only one fog for the rear to make sure you do NOT mistake it for a stop light; illumination intensity varies by manufacturer, but it will generally be several times brighter than the running/"tail" lights, if not quite as bright as the stop lights.
MBNut had it right, of course. The comment immediately above can only come from someone who has a) never owned one of these cars, or b) has never bothered to read the owner's manual. Whichever...
Do you use a rear fog lamp in the broad day light in the middle of the day? I can see a foglamp during times of fog, but during the DAY? (Let me guess.... MAYBE the driver forgot to turn it off, huh? ) There are surely a lot of drivers that leave that light on. For your information, I have seen single lights glowing on both left and tight sides in different situations. At night with headlamps on, you SHOULD have at least one light on each side of the car to signify driving lights. I COULD have said that the majority of the time that I come up behind a car with one light out, it is probably European, but I did not say that. BUT IT IS TRUE! Especially on older German cars (which is what I said originally). UNLESS of course the driver has a way of deactivating one of the DRIVING lights at night... I can be as sarcastic as you if the situation warrants.
I can see that it is time for me to go elsewhere and write. I will stay out of your website because I am obviously ignorant, and you guys are much smarter than me.
I can always learn something, but you EDUCATED people have put me in my place.
Thanks jrct9454 for letting me know that I don't want to be anything like you. The fact is, we are not in Europe or Japan, and most people don't know about these lights. Besides, here in America it seems we have a much bigger problem of drunk drivers than in Europe. The penalties for this crime are much more severe, and many countries is virtually non existent. Having spent many years in Japan as part of our armed forces I have seen this light on their cars as well. They are generally used when the car is parked there. Drunk drivers have been known to drive right up the rear of cars with lights on like that late at night if the car is stopped here in America. That MAY be one of the reasons this light is being deleted, but then again, I don't know anything.
As I said in my original comment, electrical problems are present in some of the old Bosch and Lucas systems, and though I haven't read an owners manual on a BMW or Mercedes lately, I can surely tell you when I see a BRAKE light or driving light that is not working properly...(like when the car is coming to a stop, and only 1 brake light comes on) Perhaps in Europe they have only one brake light, right? I had no complaint about the rear fog light. But it wouldn't make much sense for a driver to be tooling down the road with the light on if it were clear outside. The statement I was making had NOTHING to do with the rear fog lamp.
It must really feel good to be so smug and self assured. If you had a problem with a comment I made, you should have addressed it me.
Thanks for making me feel so welcome. I guess I'll go back to my Japanese cars now!
GSEREP1
And I'll admit I was partially reacting to the implied message that MBNut couldn't possibly know what he was talking about, notwithstanding the fact that he had the right answer. I didn't much care for the tone there, either, so I guess that makes us even.
Problem with this medium is that there is no nuance key...
M
I'm just the messenger here, passing along some interesting items from a site that has commentary about the auto industry. I figured that it would encourage further discussion, whether I agreed with it or not (and I didn't state whether I agreed with it or not).
If you have substantial rebuttals to the editorials at that site, certainly feel free to send a letter to the editor at editor@autoextremist.com. You don't need to give your real name, but include your home town. He may even publish it next week.
M
Absolutely amazing...
i wonder if the internal cabin would still be as intact in a C-class???
http://www.renntechmercedes.com/vr/pics/S-Class/s_clfacelift/S_CLmain.html
While the car in those pics doesn't look bad, most of those type of conversions are of terrible quality.
M
M
Go to auto.t-online.de to view the article
M
This would be my first MB and I need no coaxing regarding the quality and safety of the car. I think the body style is about the nicest I have seen.
The seller has just spent $4k on an air conditioner repair, and this gave me some deja vu from my former Audis and their high repair costs. I am comfortable that I will be told all the seller knows and I will have the car checked.
Does anyone have advice on costs of maintenance and repair for this model; at a dealer or at a competent German car repair shop? Any other advice?
Thanks!
Thanks.
M