probably cause there is still no awareness of the car. Can't tell you how many people called my car an Intrepid. Intrigue? What's that? Everybody in the Western World knows what a Cutlass is.
Do they really think they're going to attract someone seriously considering Audi, BMW, a Lexus GS or other more established, proven luxo/sport cars? Or are they just going for the guy who wants to trade up from his Aurora?
So what do you suggest? Cadillac should just give up and not try to compete? I don't get your point. They build a car that is sporty, has more room than competitors, has decent power from a smooth mill (although more power is coming), and finally has some exciting styling (even if you don't like it, it's more exciting than the button-down Seville styling). So it doesn't say "Audi" or "BMW". What's your point? Only those companies can build a sporty lux car? Most of Lexus' cars are boring and soft, yet you mentioned the GS. Why can't Cadillac have boring (although way more interesting than a Lexus) soft cars but then one serious sports car? Do you feel the same way about the new BMW 1-series? I mean, why would anyone consider one when they can have a Civic or Corolla or other more proven econo/yawn cars?
If you think this isn't the same because BMW has a better "image", then I guess you are right. Cadillac can't hope to attract people who only care that an appropriately yuppie badge is on their hood. Nor should they try. Fortunately for Cadillac, there are still plenty of people out there who can think independently, so I would say that's who the CTS is supposed to appeal to.
vcjumper : Ya, I've seen that article many times. The guy is dope anyway . He was just crabby cause he had to review a common VUE rather than a Lexus or BMW. I've driven a VUE twice and it's a very decent performer. Some cheap plastic bits but otherwise a nice vehicle.
mfletouva : resale prices have not changed much in the past 2-3 years on Intrigues here. Perhaps there is little to no demand for them in some areas. Around here you see lots of them, 2 others on my street alone. I know I'd but one at those prices TS mentioned!!
The prices I saw are in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I suspect they are "program cars" but that's easy enough to find out. How about buying one of those $6995 deals and driving to a market where you could get $12,995?
What the author says about the Vue is exactly what I see whenever I look at a Saturn. The absolute worst interiors, totally unappealing platforms, generally blah looks. Would you want that car in your driveway? Resoundingly, no.
As for CTS sales: let's wait until we get some retail delivery numbers. I too see lots of them on dealer lots but darn few on the streets. Could be that the production bump was simply to fill inventories. Plus I assume GM is still offering 0% on them, so they can't be selling *that* well. I just think there aren't very many people who will want that Kartoon Kar styling in their driveway.
Almost bought a VUE actually. You have never driven one so you have no idea how good or bad it really is. Keep in mind, the VUE starts at about C$22K, it's not a Lexus.
As for the CTS, sales are ahead of projections. To the end of Sept. they have sold around 26K and projections were for 30K / year. I know you hate it, you have mentioned that before. Obviously many people disagree with you.
Hey My mom is looking at getting an Intrigue (she's pretty set on it) but I think she is going to get ripped. Any idea on what a '02 GX is going for, before $3000 rebate which they offered her.
Your perfect resource is right here on edmund's. Find the invoice price for that particular car and add no more than $3-400 above the invoice.
You might even find a dealer who will sell it to you under invoice.
Remember there is a 3% hold back that is basically profit for the dealer.
If the car has an MSRP of $25,000 then there is an additional $750 profit for the dealer.
If you offered them $300 over invoice that $300 would probably go to the salesman as his commission and the $750 holdback would go to the dealer as profit.
So in this example your mother would be getting about $2,000 off MSRP and the $3000 rebate. For a total of $5000 off MSRP.
Sounds fair to me. There might also be some spiffs from Oldsmobile that we don't know anything about.
I could get a GL for 19K, so you should be able to practically steal a GX I think. Just think, they've had it on their lot for probably at least 8 months.
Excellent point! It's as if some folks think everything Cadillac does is wrong. If they continue to build cars that are conservatively styled then they will forever have the geezer image. So they build something that looks a bit different and is darn fun to drive and guess what, they get criticized for that. Oh well, I buy what I like, not what everyone else likes or says I should buy. Maybe thats why less mainstream cars like the CTS, Saab 9-3, and the Intrigue appeal to me.
Yeah, you should be able to get an Intrigue GX for around $18. I just bought my GL with PCS, spoiler, and sun and sound for $19700 or so, from an MSRP of $27132, the GX MSRPs at around $24, so...
Btw, there was a comment above somewhere that said the Intrigue was really just a suped up base Grand Prix. For some reason I let that slide at the time, but for the record...
uh, no...Besides the obvious styling differences, the two aren't even on the same wheelbase...Grand Prix is 110.5, Intrigue is 109.0 They don't share engines, Grand Prix has the old Malibu 3.1 V6 standard and the old 3.8 V6 optional, Intrigue has the new advanced 24valve Shortstar 3.5. Intrigue has options like PCS, not happening on the Grand Prix. Traction Control systems are different. To the extent that all GM cars share some parts, sure, but to say that the Intrigue is just another a base Grand Prix with options is just plain wrong.
you protest that the Intrigue is not just a "fancy" Grand Prix, yet oldsman states that the Acura is just a fancy Accord. The TL has more differences from the Accord than the Intrigue has from the Grand Prix - hggher-tech engine, completely different suspension and steering designs, more sophisticated transmission, better interior materials, larger brakes and wheels, far more standard features, etc.
Plus, the Intrigue is sold and serviced alongside the Grand Prix and Chevy Cavalier - the TL is only sold and serviced by an Acura dealer, not by Honda . Big difference in the dealership attitude and experience experience.
So, if you really think the TL is just a gussied-up Accord, then the same logic says the Intrigue is just a fancy Grand Prix - even more so.
I have found this site to be extremely helpful. I am quite happy my boss told me about it. thanks for some real world ideas of what your car cost you. Basically, when you guys are stating the GX should be around $18K, does that include the $3K in rebates or should I go from there. I had told my mom to start to get down to the invoice cost and take the rebates from there. Am I close.
The differences are there to sell to different customers. I would never buy a car with the cheesy looking interior that the Grand Prix has, but liked the interior design of the Intrigue. I would venture to say they share very few actual parts. Basic chassis design (which dates back to the early 90s) but share no sheet metal, no glass, no engine or transmission, no interior, stereo, climate control, stalk controls, spring, strut, steering, or wheels. Olds had exclusive use of the particular steering system, struts and springs used on the Intrigue that were not offered on the Grand Prix or Regal. One of the telling differences can be found in the quality of carpeting used. The Intrigue has "Cadillac" quality carpeting and seat leather, whereas the Grand Prix uses "Chevy" quality carpeting and seat leather. And to say that the Acura TL is a optioned-up Accord is not necessarily a bad thing. BTW, doesn't the new Accord use the same 240-hp engine and 5-speed auto trans as the TL? I would venture to say that the new (03) Accord and the 02 TL share more bits than the 02 Intrigue and 02 Grand Prix. Same goes for the 03 Camry and 03 Lexus ES.
Hey, if you like a car that has extensive quality problems, like flickering lights, dashboard gaps, leaking doors, vibrating steering shafts,warping rotors, has ressle return slightly higher than a Daewoo, but looks good in your driveway, you can't go wrong with an Intrigue.
But if quality, reliabilty, crash-test worthiness, resale value, 10 time higher customer satisfaction scores than Oldsmobile, and not being found in every rental car fleet in the country like a Ford Taurus, go for the Acura.
Of course you pay more. Because you get what you pay for in a car. And you'll get more when you sell it, too.
Let's face it - targeted demographics for the Intrigue are late-40's to early 50's American males, likely overweight, gery hair and balding. These people need a good looking car to make then look better at a stop light. I don't think Acura owners have that need in a car. Nothing personal.
No one here seems to be asking the "questions" you seem to be trying to answer.
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, and if you don't like the car, fine. But it isn't necessary to drop into a discussion and lambaste the subject with sweeping generalizations.
If you have a desire to compare this vehicle to an Acura or any other sedan, the comparisons board is located here.
Guess that's a little misleading, sounds like I got a new one. The guy when I tested the 2002GL in Sandstone said I could get invoice PLUS all the rebates, which would take it down to 18.5-19K or so. So tell her to work from invoice and THEN add the rebates. Maybe some of the dealers around are still supporting Oldsmobile. None of the two left here are. There are no 2003 models on the lot except for Aleros. Neither one has ordered Auroras or Bravadas or Silhouettes. And only the one has two Intrigues left. Your ma, if she wants one should make out almost like a thief.
I looked at a GTP coupe when I bought the Intrigue and while I wouldn't say the Intrigue is a fancy GP, it does seem to have a more upscale interior. I had always liked the GP since it's 97 redesign and that was initially one of my first choices, but the interior seemed rather cheap looking and it didn't have some of the features the Intrigue has. The raw power of the supercharged 3800 was nice, but the ride seemed more harsh and noisy than the Intrigue's. And with the impending demise of Olds, I got a better deal on the Intrigue than I was going to get on the GTP. And the Intrigue had a higher MSRP price to begin with. I never said the Intrigue was a dressed up GP and it really isn't. Rather it's a totally different car based on common architecture. Both are about the same in price and class, one just emphasises performance while the other leans more toward luxury and refinement.
Folks, please leave the situation to me. Your responses only continue the disruption. If you have any questions or anything else to say, send me an email. Please do not respond here.
My brother in law has a GTP and it's nice (and very fast), but definitely lacks the refinement of the Intrigue. It will be interesting to see how the new 04 GP fairs in the refinement department.
Got the ISS lube, and it made all the difference, although I suspect I'll have to have it again, out of warrantee, in another 30k miles. The dealer also replaced a rear strut/shock that caused some noise. Thanks to all who provided me the ISS lube info and TSB data!
my 2000 Silver mist GL "typeR" is 3 years old now, and has 27k miles, still love it, and even with some minor fixes required, a great performance sedan.
3 years later, its still one of the best looking sedans out there, which cannot be said of Acura (can you say boring). ...this from a 42 years young car enthusiast, 50 being a ways off.
What type of noise did the ISS lube fix? I've got a squeak which seems to come from the steering column whenever I take the wheel sharply to the right or left(such as parallel parking). I'm also getting a low groaning sound which comes from the front end of the car when turning to the left. This is most noticeable when going slow such as around corners in a parking garage. I'm going to try and schedule a service appointment this week to have the noises checked, have the "flicker" revisited, and the tranmission problem looked at. I haven't had the tranmission continue to shift harshly like it was a couple of weeks ago, but a time or two I have had a hard shift and sometimes it seems like it is hesistating when shifting from first to second under moderate to hard acceleration. Other times it swaps gears quickly and smoothly.
On my Intrigue, the ISS problem had symptoms as much related to feel as to sound. When I would apply the brakes, I could feel a "clunk" through the steering wheel - almost as if the brake mechanisim was hitting the steering column. There was no realted squeak, squeal or groan. It was always a "thunk", and was only noticalbe to me when the brakes were applied, not when turning the steering wheel.
The fix only took a couple of hours and was $119 at the dealer. Happened at 68K miles, and been completely trouble-free for the last 4K.
I come back, and you all let an Acura nut in here. :-) Since it looks like most of the flame war was deleted, let me be positive and state that:
1. I'm 28, have maybe 1 or two gray hairs, have the same amount of hair I had 10 years ago. 2. I chose the Intrigue because it was the closest thing to a Maxima from any of the big 3 (my wife's family all work for the UAW, Ford, and GM... I don't want to lose favored 'son in law' status). 3. The Acura TL is overpriced; for a decently optioned one, I'd be looking at double what I paid for my Intrigue. There are much better cars in the TL's price range.
Did the dealer tell you what he fixed to stop the clunk? That sure doesn't sound like the typical ISS problem to me. I had a car that clunked when the brakes were applied, and found it was a little play in the caliper brackets, that let the pads move each time I braked. Oldsman01: I have that same groaning at low speed when turning, I have always felt it was a normal sound from the electrical valves that control the power steering in the Magnasteer system. I think they are "digital," in that they cycle rapidly open and closed to control fluid flow, as opposed to the conventional spool valves. RE ISS: My 99 had the ISS lubed about 5k miles ago, and now the clunk is coming back. I hope periodic greasing will keep it under control. Does anyone know if there is a kit available that would let me lube it myself? I like to do my own service, but I understand the tool for this job includes a long-nose hypodermic of some kind. That is really the only problem I have had with this car, it just passed 40K miles.
I've owned 2 Intrigues that both exibited this problem. What makes the ISS clunk noticably different from a brake issue is that brake clunking increases as a function of speed. That is to say, the faster the car is moving when the brakes are applied the more noticeable the clunking/vibration. As the car slows, the less noticable it becomes. On the other hand, the ISS problem is more noticable at low speeds; the symptoms are less noticable as the speedo climbs.
I did have a '92 Lumina that had the inside caliper of a front brake not release after letting go of the brake. But that always exibited strange noises and sensations at any speed.
I'm looking at the work order from when I took the car to the dealer, and it says "Customer states there is clunking noise when brakes are applied and when going over bumps at low speeds, felt through steering wheel. Inspect front end and brakes"
The brakes weren't touched, and the problem was solved.
Somewhere, I read a description of how the shaft can be lubed - maybe in a service buletin - I thought someone had posted it here some time ago. You're correct, I recall it does require a specialized tool of some sort to get inside the shaft. As for me, I change oil, filters and wiper blades. Anything else - I use MasterCard! Good luck.
I like the looks of the '04 very much. GM finally got rid of the side-cladding that, to me, just made the cars look bloated and bottom-heavy. Hope they did as nice a job on the interior. In the past few years, Pontiac dashboards have looked like a video game, and unnecessarily fussy.
An issue I have with the Bonnie is that, fully optioned, you're looking at upwards of $34-35K, putting it up against a lot of cars with better engineering and build quality than Pontiac is known typically for.
Interior materials are decent, but the video game interior look has got to go. I'm not much of a fan of the 04 GP interior because of the odd background of the gauges and the lack of continuity in the centre console (radio/hvac controls look like they were just shoved in there and could be pulled out).
I was getting a rattle and loose feel from the f.end, esp. thru the sterring wheel and even while braking felt it thru the pedal. Assumed it was the rack or suspension, but as i read other posts, seemed to be the ISS. It was, and the fix is great. Good luck.
Just wanted to thank everybody out there who used their Intrigues well today to drive out to the polls and contribute to the historic Republican sweep across the nation, from gaining seats in the House, to holding key Governships, to taking back the U.S. Senate. Its a wonderful thing when we can send a unified message of support for our President.
It's been about a year ago when I used to stop by this forum when I was shopping for a new car. Ended up getting a Bonneville, but my Stratus was rear-ended yesterday and it may have been totaled.
Thus, here I am again thinking of an Intrigue, a used one this time. Considering how little the Stratus was worth, I can only think of a 98 Intrigue. I know that that model year had the 3.8, but was it the only engine available then? Did the 3.8 suffer from the dreaded ISS issue? What else can you tell me about that year?
I have a '98 that I bought used about 9 months ago as an "extra" car that I only forsee driving 6-8K miles a year. 65K miles, well maintained, paid $7500 cash. The car was a local one owner and had all the records, besides the routine stuff like brakes, tires, battery, etc., it never had any additional trips to the shop. It is still quite solid and rattle-free, and everything works great. I did have the ISS issue crop up at 70K, but it was only slightly over $100 to fix at the dealer, so it really isn't that "dreaded".The ISS problem wasn't just in the '98, judging by the posts on this board, it looks like subsequent model-years were affected, too.
There have been many discussions here of the 3.8 vs. 3.5, both have pros and cons. Mine still has the same factory spec compression at 70K miles as when it was new, no leaks or oil burn. Still smooth and quiet. It is the most widely-produced V6 GM makes, and appears to be bullet-proof. Can't go wrong with either engine. Depends on what you want to spend. Not much difference between a '98 and '99. For the money, I'm very satisfied.
Drive on my friend, drive on!!! (in my best German accent :-)
Perhaps you can confirm this for me: When I lost my '98, it had 80k. I swore that the engine/tranny combo was silkier than when it had 30k. At 100k, do you find this to be true?
Comments
Can't tell you how many people called my car an Intrepid.
Intrigue? What's that?
Everybody in the Western World knows what a Cutlass is.
Forbes
So what do you suggest? Cadillac should just give up and not try to compete? I don't get your point. They build a car that is sporty, has more room than competitors, has decent power from a smooth mill (although more power is coming), and finally has some exciting styling (even if you don't like it, it's more exciting than the button-down Seville styling). So it doesn't say "Audi" or "BMW". What's your point? Only those companies can build a sporty lux car? Most of Lexus' cars are boring and soft, yet you mentioned the GS. Why can't Cadillac have boring (although way more interesting than a Lexus) soft cars but then one serious sports car? Do you feel the same way about the new BMW 1-series? I mean, why would anyone consider one when they can have a Civic or Corolla or other more proven econo/yawn cars?
If you think this isn't the same because BMW has a better "image", then I guess you are right. Cadillac can't hope to attract people who only care that an appropriately yuppie badge is on their hood. Nor should they try. Fortunately for Cadillac, there are still plenty of people out there who can think independently, so I would say that's who the CTS is supposed to appeal to.
mfletouva : resale prices have not changed much in the past 2-3 years on Intrigues here. Perhaps there is little to no demand for them in some areas. Around here you see lots of them, 2 others on my street alone. I know I'd but one at those prices TS mentioned!!
;-)
As for CTS sales: let's wait until we get some retail delivery numbers. I too see lots of them on dealer lots but darn few on the streets. Could be that the production bump was simply to fill inventories. Plus I assume GM is still offering 0% on them, so they can't be selling *that* well. I just think there aren't very many people who will want that Kartoon Kar styling in their driveway.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
As for the CTS, sales are ahead of projections. To the end of Sept. they have sold around 26K and projections were for 30K / year. I know you hate it, you have mentioned that before. Obviously many people disagree with you.
Thanks.
Find the invoice price for that particular car and add no more than $3-400 above the invoice.
You might even find a dealer who will sell it to you under invoice.
Remember there is a 3% hold back that is basically profit for the dealer.
If the car has an MSRP of $25,000 then there is an additional $750 profit for the dealer.
If you offered them $300 over invoice that $300 would probably go to the salesman as his commission and the $750 holdback would go to the dealer as profit.
So in this example your mother would be getting about $2,000 off MSRP and the $3000 rebate. For a total of $5000 off MSRP.
Sounds fair to me.
There might also be some spiffs from Oldsmobile that we don't know anything about.
Btw, there was a comment above somewhere that said the Intrigue was really just a suped up base Grand Prix. For some reason I let that slide at the time, but for the record...
uh, no...Besides the obvious styling differences, the two aren't even on the same wheelbase...Grand Prix is 110.5, Intrigue is 109.0 They don't share engines, Grand Prix has the old Malibu 3.1 V6 standard and the old 3.8 V6 optional, Intrigue has the new advanced 24valve Shortstar 3.5. Intrigue has options like PCS, not happening on the Grand Prix. Traction Control systems are different. To the extent that all GM cars share some parts, sure, but to say that the Intrigue is just another a base Grand Prix with options is just plain wrong.
Plus, the Intrigue is sold and serviced alongside the Grand Prix and Chevy Cavalier - the TL is only sold and serviced by an Acura dealer, not by Honda . Big difference in the dealership attitude and experience experience.
So, if you really think the TL is just a gussied-up Accord, then the same logic says the Intrigue is just a fancy Grand Prix - even more so.
Thanks everyone!
But if quality, reliabilty, crash-test worthiness, resale value, 10 time higher customer satisfaction scores than Oldsmobile, and not being found in every rental car fleet in the country like a Ford Taurus, go for the Acura.
Of course you pay more. Because you get what you pay for in a car. And you'll get more when you sell it, too.
Let's face it - targeted demographics for the Intrigue are late-40's to early 50's American males, likely overweight, gery hair and balding. These people need a good looking car to make then look better at a stop light. I don't think Acura owners have that need in a car. Nothing personal.
if it retails for 23k then you should be able to get it for 18K.
You know nothing about the Intrigue. Pop on out of here pal.
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, and if you don't like the car, fine. But it isn't necessary to drop into a discussion and lambaste the subject with sweeping generalizations.
If you have a desire to compare this vehicle to an Acura or any other sedan, the comparisons board is located here.
Thank you.
Thanks.
my 2000 Silver mist GL "typeR" is 3 years old now, and has 27k miles, still love it, and even with some minor fixes required, a great performance sedan.
3 years later, its still one of the best looking sedans out there, which cannot be said of Acura (can you say boring).
...this from a 42 years young car enthusiast, 50 being a ways off.
There was no realted squeak, squeal or groan. It was always a "thunk", and was only noticalbe to me when the brakes were applied, not when turning the steering wheel.
The fix only took a couple of hours and was $119 at the dealer. Happened at 68K miles, and been completely trouble-free for the last 4K.
I don't think you have an ISS issue...
1. I'm 28, have maybe 1 or two gray hairs, have the same amount of hair I had 10 years ago.
2. I chose the Intrigue because it was the closest thing to a Maxima from any of the big 3 (my wife's family all work for the UAW, Ford, and GM... I don't want to lose favored 'son in law' status).
3. The Acura TL is overpriced; for a decently optioned one, I'd be looking at double what I paid for my Intrigue. There are much better cars in the TL's price range.
Just a thought...
Oldsman01: I have that same groaning at low speed when turning, I have always felt it was a normal sound from the electrical valves that control the power steering in the Magnasteer system. I think they are "digital," in that they cycle rapidly open and closed to control fluid flow, as opposed to the conventional spool valves.
RE ISS: My 99 had the ISS lubed about 5k miles ago, and now the clunk is coming back. I hope periodic greasing will keep it under control. Does anyone know if there is a kit available that would let me lube it myself? I like to do my own service, but I understand the tool for this job includes a long-nose hypodermic of some kind.
That is really the only problem I have had with this car, it just passed 40K miles.
I did have a '92 Lumina that had the inside caliper of a front brake not release after letting go of the brake. But that always exibited strange noises and sensations at any speed.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/
Diagnose & Repair: "Lube Steering Half Shaft" $98 -labor $18.76 -lubricant"
The brakes weren't touched, and the problem was solved.
Somewhere, I read a description of how the shaft can be lubed - maybe in a service buletin - I thought someone had posted it here some time ago. You're correct, I recall it does require a specialized tool of some sort to get inside the shaft. As for me, I change oil, filters and wiper blades. Anything else - I use MasterCard! Good luck.
An issue I have with the Bonnie is that, fully optioned, you're looking at upwards of $34-35K, putting it up against a lot of cars with better engineering and build quality than Pontiac is known typically for.
;->
So let's take political comments to a more appropriate another venue. Thanks.
Thus, here I am again thinking of an Intrigue, a used one this time. Considering how little the Stratus was worth, I can only think of a 98 Intrigue. I know that that model year had the 3.8, but was it the only engine available then? Did the 3.8 suffer from the dreaded ISS issue? What else can you tell me about that year?
TIA
There have been many discussions here of the 3.8 vs. 3.5, both have pros and cons. Mine still has the same factory spec compression at 70K miles as when it was new, no leaks or oil burn. Still smooth and quiet. It is the most widely-produced V6 GM makes, and appears to be bullet-proof. Can't go wrong with either engine. Depends on what you want to spend. Not much difference between a '98 and '99. For the money, I'm very satisfied.
Perhaps you can confirm this for me: When I lost my '98, it had 80k. I swore that the engine/tranny combo was silkier than when it had 30k. At 100k, do you find this to be true?