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Comments
I am considering getting one of those black bra's to put on the car when I travel on the interstate (since this is where most of the damage occurs) Does BB have it for this car yet??
First, my qualifications for having an opinion include the fact that we have owned 13 MBs over the last 33 years, including just about everything in the line except SLs. We have also owned since 1962 five BMWs, a Porsche, and everything Japanese from the big 3 [Nissan, Toyota, and Honda/Acura]...47 cars in all since 1962. I've seen it all, and paid handsomely for the privilege. Here's what I know, have observed, have read, or just "intuit" from our experiences:
-The quality "bar" has been raised over the last 10 years to the point where the differences between the worst and the best in the business are not nearly as dramatic as it used to be. Even the Koreans are getting it, and some of Hyundai's recent products are virtuous enough in their respective classes [Santa Fe, the new Elantra] to warrant a good look. That said, someone has to lead, and the Japanese Big 3 continue to set the standard. Individual models vary up and down the scale, and dealer quality is always a wild card, but no one worries about these issues more obsessively than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. They just work harder at testing and quality control of subsystems before choosing a supplier for a production part - AND, they take a collaborative approach to working with suppliers to keep quality up. They really hold everyone's feet to the fire, and jump on deviations quickly.
-Mercedes and BMW have improved in absolute terms, but not very much in relative terms. What this means is that they are better than they were in many respects compared to decades ago, but not especially in relation to the Japanese competition. This is especially true for complex electronic systems and components - exhibit A is this forum. VW and Audi are worse, and in some cases, much worse - VW in particular seems unable to get good work out of their plant in Mexico, notwithstanding years of working at it and periodically declaring victory [Herr Dr. Piech has an unfortunate tendency to "solve" problems by declaration, rather than action, in true imperial fashion.]
-My experience is that Mercedes makes a rock-solid body/chassis, with basic components {suspension, engine, structure] that will last a long time, provided proper maintenance. That is a key caveat: if you want the design life from an MB, you have to be prepared to pay, and often through the nose, to keep it maintained. Parts and labor have traditionally been the most expensive, or nearly so, in the business. As the cars have gotten more complex, and in particular as the tendency to add more electronic systems has accelerated, the big Achilles heel of all the German makes has been electronic failures: motors, keys, connections, software, sensors, you-name-it. Here, the Japanese are in another universe: they aren't perfect, but so much better as to make a noticeable difference in the owner's [and dealer's] experience with new models. The difference is in the choice of subcontractors and in testing. The Germans have some traditional suppliers that just cannot compete on quality with their Japanese counterparts, and the German big 3 stubbornly refuse to throw these guys out and try someone different, or hold their feet to the fire on warranty claims in a way that changes behavior. Note that when the Germans start a new plant in North America [MB in Alabama, BMW in SC], the result is a fire drill of defect-riddled first-year products [the first MLs, the first Z3s]. When the Japanese do it, the first cars off the line often get quality audit scores that exceed the cars produced in the home plants back in Japan. No one sets out to produce junk - it all boils down to managment's expectations, and how they go about picking suppliers; MB's intentions in Vance were no less virtuous than Nissan's in Smyrna...they just don't have the management skills to pull it off.
-Customer expectations are not the whole thing, but they are a really big thing. Should you have higher expectations of the total ownership experience when you pay $35-70k for a car than when you pay $15-25k? I THINK so, but everyone is different. That said, in absolute terms, my last three Honda/Acura products have had as close to zero problems as it is possible to encounter [our '96 Acura RL had an annoying rattle from the roof area that was eventually traced to a wiring harness that passes through to the trunk; our '98 and '01 Accords have been trouble-free]. Does this mean I would rather have our current V6 Accord EX than the C240 we were considering instead? Well, frankly, no. That was a purely economic decision - the $10k difference was something we needed for other things in our lives right now. Would I be a happy customer with some of the problems I've heard about in this forum? Well, frankly, "no" to that question, too. You're darned right I have different expectations from MB than I have from Honda, but those are more about the money spent than the brand-name per se. And anyway, there is the nagging question in my mind, with all of my accumulated experience: this is not rocket science...if Honda and Toyota can produce good quality numbers, why not MB?
-And the bottom line is: if you spend big bucks to get a car in MB's class, you have every right to expect a sterling experience in every respect - a relatively defect-free car, a dealer who can fix what problems occur, and a manufacturer who can back up the dealer with technical help, quick fixes to common problems, easy parts availability, and a stand-up attitude when the crap does hit the fan. Personally, I love the way the cars drive and feel on the road - nothing beats the Germans for the combination of ride, handling, feel, safety. But until Mercedes [at least in the USA] can get the overall ownership experience to the same level that Lexus/Toyota provides, customers have every right to be demanding that things get better. My impression is that MB still has lessons to learn. They got it that they had to compete on price and development time, on more exciting products, on the touchy-feely stuff. Now they have to improve by going "back to the future": every new model needs the kind of real testing that used to characterize MB, with prototypes being run to death for hundreds of thousand of miles, and obsessive attention to every failure encountered in those tests. The Japanese still do it that way, especially for their upscale products - none of that guarantees absolute perfection at model launch, as there is no such thing, but it sure prevents the kinds of recent new-model debacles that Mercedes has enountered. The ML, the new S, and now the C, all acquired a long list of problems at launch that are just plain preventable. The DCX corporation became too focused on mergers and acquisitions and seems to need reminding what the business is, especially for the MB brand - the German press has been merciless in i
For me, there is no beating the overall driving experience of a Mercedes product - I think the new C raises the bar in this class, and have thought so all along. But the corporation needs to be reminded periodically that it is NOT setting the standard for defect-free products in this market - that distinction belongs to Lexus/Toyota, and to a lesser extent Acura/Honda and Infiniti/Nissan. No current MB owner should have to apologize for being disappointed if the ownership experience doesn't match the driving experience. It's great that there are plenty of you out there who have had no problems, but not great that those who have encountered defects have to work so hard at getting them permanently addressed. Daimler-Benz needs to go "back to the future" when it comes to new-model testing - run the prototypes for hundreds of thousands of miles and jump obsessively on the defects that show up, before the car ever gets released to the first customer. That's the way they used to do it, and the way the Japanese still do...perfection will never be guaranteed, but you can improve the odds dramatically by applying simple management techniques that we know work. It's not too much to ask at this level of the market...
John R. - Elk Grove CA
"For me, there is no beating the overall driving experience of a Mercedes product."
I think the above sentence says it all for me.
I don't like any these little problems which may occur more than anyone else, but I wouldn't trade in the driving experience for any other car with zero problems.
Excellent post. Couldn't have said it better. Yes, you wish it were better, but the statistics/surveys clearly show the Toyota/Honda leading the way in minimizing problems, so I'm not sure you can say it's reasonable to "expect" MB/BMW/Audi/Volvo to be better; of the 4, MB is probably the best in reliability. The question is: are you willing to trade some of that off for better safety/durability/handling? If your answer is "my car has to have no problems" as your top priority, the correct decision is obviously a Lexus/Toyota or a Honda as you have done.
ctic:
The 3M material is warranteed against yellowing by 3M. It would be interesting to see if that owner can get it replace for free. For the record, my ML is 6 months old and doesn't have those problems, though I got a couple of huge paint chips near the top of the hood that no bra would have prevented unless it covered the entire hood.
A lot of paint chips can't just be "buffed out". I've seen a lot of cars w/ the front bumper and front of the hood sandblasted up here in the Boston area. Even my old Integra looked like that. It's because you can't leave the black bras on when you need them the most...in the winter when even in light snows, they dump tons of sand all over the highway.
and..having come from a problem free 2000 3.2 tl..i STILL enjoy my c240 better..even with less horsepower!
as to the problems that have been showing up..i really do feel for the people that have nagging defects... or worse.I would be raising the roof f it were my car! what % of c's are out there with small,or large defects is hard to get a handel on.I knew going into my purchase that mb did NOT have the same quality control reputation as honda/acura.so i am not surprised to hear some complaints.
I feel indebted to everyone on this board who has posted their problems and, hopefully, protested loudly to their dealer when they have had a problem. Lets all demand, DEMAND I say, the quality we feel we have purchased. Having said that, After 5K miles this is still one awesome ride.
Bubba
"... My friends all drive Porches, I must make AMENDS..." J. Joplin
ALPHAPEPPER AND EUROWGN....I work at a Benz dealer. All you'll see for $30g's is the new C230 Coupe with the John Deere sounding Kompressor motor. I haven't seen a C class, even a C240 under $34g's. That's a 170hp 2.6 liter v6 and not much room. And Q/C is a real big problem lately... You'll see me, your friendly M/B service advisor a hell of a lot more often than your VW service advisor....TRUST ME.....I'm 1 of 5 advisors here and at this moment,1:25 pm Wednesday afternoon, I myself have 25 cars to handle today....Average that X 5 advisors = 125 cars,give or take... More on the GIVE side though... and the next available appt. date is May 31st...5 months into the year and already 9 cars bought back or walked away from by very dissatisfied owners. Don't ask how many recalls I've been faced with... An E430 4-MATIC runs $56g's babe...(4.3 ltr/275 hp/automatic only).Not a hard decision for me....W8 6-speed....
John -- great post. I brought home a C320 in December (out-the-door price $48,000). I was most unhappy with some of its problems. It would have helped if the dealer did not say they never heard of these problems; if the five times they kept the car they had a loan car for me (decent or indecent); if they did not keep the car two to three days each time; if they did not tell me I cannot get a perfect car. What I wanted was a car without holes in the paint and that everything advertised and in the manual functioned as described. Three months were consumed by telephone calls, faxes, E-mail. and research. It was the first car I purchased without my husband and felt apologetic, intimidated, but determined.
There will be another C320 in my garage in a few weeks. I now have the knowledge from this Forum that my reactions were entirely as they should have been and required no feelings of inadequacies.
That said, this is not a complaint against my dealership because they were patient, as was the MB representatative -- it is just that I went through more aggravation than I should have to achieve a good result.
Most MB dealers have outside people come in to repair paint chips. I will save up any chips that are in important places and bring the car in once or twice a year for fixes. The cost is about $100 to do all chips. I will take care of the chips that are not in obvious places so if I goof up, it won't matter as much. When your car is new, they usually will fix at no charge at the time your car is in the shop for service.
The dealers IMHO do try to make you happy and take care of what they can if it does not involve too much.
Miki
incidentally.. now that the hot weather has finally hit the northeast with a vengance... the AC works great!and the rear shade helps keep the interior temp moderate,i think.
You could not have said it any better.I hope all present owners and future owners read that post.
On paint chipping: Every board on this site is filled with complaints about chips from road debris. The best explanation I have heard is the water-based paint that is now common across the industry. I tend to agree that the touch-up stick, and occasionally, the quick visit to a professional is to be preferred over the various protective devices. As with everything else, these are matters of taste, but all of the "bras", whether black or clear, have their own set of disadvantages, risks, and for my aging eyes, aesthetic problems...so I just deal with the chips as they occur, and if it gets bad enough, get the paint shop to work it over. A good shop can do wonders in a very short time for a surprisingly modest amount of money.
Final final final observation: any MB service advisor who believes that VW is the place to go for a better, more trouble-free experience in car ownership has not been in touch with his counterparts at the VW dealer[s]. There are plenty of mad-as-hornets customers over there, too. With VW, there seems to be an additional set of issues with dealer support, especially on parts availability...may have improved lately, but was pretty scandalous there for awhile.
For a while, you could not get any brake pads or rotors for the B5 Passat, but that has long since changed, as aftermarket pads and rotors have been available for a while now.
A dealer said I could order a 2002
and he would sell it for 500 over invoice.
I repeat over invoice... think this is a good
deal? How much should I put down on the order?
I was thinking about leasing... four year?
I never leased before.. the dealer said the
car has a 60 percent residual for four year?
Is this good? He said something about money factor? And that I should take the lease with Mercedes not a bank? Do I need to give a security deposit? I will post some more car questions next
I prefer DVD...wonder if there will be changes for 2002? maybe color only? Is sports package a good idea? No wood inside then only some brass finish? Also is Command System hard to use?
I think its CD Rom...I prefer DVD..will they change it? Any color preferences?
Third Post to follow
I heard ..stalling? dead battery because of key problem...And chipping in the paint?
Does anyone have these problems....or can anyone say they have no problems?
Other Cars....BMW 330 I...looks small....New JagX..alot of Ford parts...Anyone like Accura TL S? I heard new Infiniti coming out with good size engine? And redesigned ES 300? Comments.
Thank You in Advance for your help....
And I would take anything mbnut1 says with a grain of salt. mbnut1 has been posting here for about a year, and despite his name, he never has anything good to say about MB cars. His name might as well be ihatembnut1.
325i-184hp
C-240-168 hp
huge different
and i had dorve both, i liked the BMW better great handling, love the car noise, gas pedal....
Nice for fun ride
but i bought the C-CLass mainly because for comfort... for seating usally more than 2 and very nicely rear A/C, but i think MB or BMW should doing something like the volvo S60, where the A/C are on both pillars....
ok back on topic
C-Class after all have better interior and i still belive Mercedes is more reliable than a BMW, i've been purchasing MB for 15 years now, and i am a true loyal friend of them. Always reliable the longest MB stayed with me for 11 years.
But my friends are all saying to me consider a Lexus, too?
Anyway do hope C-class add a jump to its new little sporty sedan!!!
again re chips its an industry wide problem,not just MB.I dont consider that a maufacture flaw
I owned a 2000 3.2tl.The acura is a great car for the value.and it certainly has more"jump" than my c240.But the handling,safety,and road feel of the TL dont approach the c class.If its the difference between the TL and the c240?? its a matter of at least 3 grand more for the c.what do you lose in a c240? (yes lose) a fully automatic seat, heated seats,and automatic climate control,sunroof...To gain that back../youll need /c2 package,and more.I felt the trade off for ride and general quality were worth it.Yes yes,I know there are many here that have had electrical problems..but scanning the TL sight recently..I read of new owners with major oil leak problems,faulty sun roofs.etc.Choose the car you feel most comfortble driving... and cope... its always a crap shoot.
finally booked Silver/Charcoal 2002 Princess - build date - Mid June and on road should be in Mid July, of cource MSRP with CD Free, dealers not sure about prices att, told me there might be increase but they will let me know in June and I can review my decision. put down $500 to be on list
just a question; have MB increased C240 productions, as there is a minimum waiting period and if anybody is aware of CD being standard in C 240s now ? I still use lots of Audio cassettes what would be their fate in C 240
thanking in advance
They do; its called a C320, and soon the C32 AMG. However the C240 has adequate power, reasonable fuel mileage, and an attractive price/value. When I was shopping, I too drove the BMW 325, it became my second choice for all the reasons you gave except that I think the brakes on the C are, if anything, a bit better. BTW I really liked the C320 but not, for me, $7K more.
We all have our ideas as to what would make the perfect set of wheels. I fantasize a vehicle with the outside dimensions of the C, the torque of a Cummins 350, the acceleration of a F16, the interior room of a 747, the dependability of the space shuttle, and oh yes, lets not forget the fuel economy of a Honda Insight and the price of KIA.. :-)
Opps! I just remembered, Dr. Who has one of those, Its called the Tardus and I want one. ;-) ;-)
Bubba
"... My friends all drive Porsches, I must make AMENDS..." J. Joplin
i am also waiting for the 2002 C in july....
I agree that from my perception the extra 7 grand for the 320 was questionable when approaching it from a cost/value look.the 240 is surprisingly quick,especially when using the touch shift.
Lexus makes a nice car quality wise..but... the is300(?)..i found to be too much of a toy in design..and the es300.. much too sterile in both look and feel.
i could wax philosophically re whether paying more money for ANYTHING is ever a guarantee for perfection in life.... but thats for the philosophy/metaphysics board.. somewhere else on the web,
My association with this marque goes back over 40 years. For me the name Mercedes-Benz is synonymous with quality and automotive superiority.
Core themes of Mercedes Benz automobiles have been safety, longevity, reliability, optimization of ride and handing characteristics, solidity, drivetrain efficeincy, refinement in the area of noise, vibration and harshness, quality of materials and workmanship. In my opinion Mercedes built up to and including the W140 (last S Class)chassis were clearly developed and built consistent to those themes.
As I have posted in the past, the W202 (last C) represented many improvements over the previous model. My principle disappointment with that car was it's europeon crash results, which at 2 out of 5 stars in my opinion represented a deviation from from the theme of automotive superiorty in the area of safety, which is the core of core Mercedes themes. The new C's crash test performance clearly represents a return to that core theme as well as improvements in the areas of ride and NVH refinement. In my humble opinion the new C240 feels so much better to drive than say a Honda and as such I wouldn't consider a Honda despite it's better reliablity. I won't ennumerate the reasons haven't selected a C240 at this time so that people that own the car don't think that I am bashing their car.
The thrust of my objections to Mercedes of late generally stem from when I see other marques outperforming Mercedes in the areas of what the name Mercedes-Benz represents to me. Frankly I think I am just more passionate about Mercedes adhering to those core themes.
I've also simultaineously owned VW's and Mercedes for a long period of time. My personal experience suggests that there is no comparison in quality of the two cars. The only thing I could really give the VW is when it breaks it is generally cheaper (not always) and easier to fix. Which was a good thing because things broke on mine at least twice as often. But it is a cheaper car to begin with so I haven't expected it to be as high a quality.
I do want to clearify one thing in my post 3081 when I said I wouldn't consider a Honda, since that isn't true. I really should have said I wouldn't enthusiatically consider a Honda. They are good cars in their own right. I was just trying to make the point the that I would trade away Honda reliablity for Mercedes drive qualities. On the other extreme I think the Audi A8 is one of the greatest driving cars in the world however the notion of $12K transmission overhauls scares the bejesus out of me.
We have both been in this forum for a long time. It is a fact that your posts regarding MB products are mostly derogatory. Yes, you are a lover of the MB marque, so much so that you post all your negative impressions in a forum where prespective buyers go to look for information.
And your negative impressions are never from owning that particular vehicle, but gleaned from VW forums or Audi forums, yes, very accurate and reliable indeed.
Let's get back to the vehicles please folks.
Thank you.
Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
What did MB say about turning C320 rotors? I don't think they recommend it. Time to start researching pads...ones that produce less dust. I think Mb tend to come standard with 'soft' pads for maximum feel and grab at lower temperatures. They sure stop smooth and well for my use but I'm willing to try OEM pads where you can chose hardness.
By way of comparison, the first owner of my 1989 Peugeot (manual gearbox) only got a grand total of 32,000 km (20,000 miles out of the first set of pads and rotors. Then I bought the car. My next set of pads lasted 85,000 km (53,000 miles) - the rotors were resurfaced, still within tolerances, and another set of pads lasted 85,000 km. So at 200,000 km I finally changed the rotors again. So the second pair of front rotors was good for 170,000 km (106,000 miles). The rear rotors were also changed at 200,000 km, for the first time.
When I get my 6 speed C, I'll aim for the same pad/rotor lifespan I got from my Peugeot.
What is the difference between a flammer who constantly posts "I hate MB!" or "MB sucks!" and a more subversive one who posts derogatory remarks but says "but I love MB" at the end?
Not much.
I am not sure; I am asking if anybody know this? my dealer just gave me FREE, and there is a big difference between single CD and CD changer
can anybody tell us what they mean by free CD player? do they mean single CD or CD changer?
Fuzzo I will defiantly keep you informed if I ever heard about standards on 2002 C 240; my dealer has told me that he will tell me more in JUNE
happy waiting
Lots of ML owners complain about how quickly the pads need replacing, though the newest pads are rumored to be harder and produce less brake dust.
6 speed is a Blast, torque is awesome. 20 MPG city, 29.4 MPG Highway at 75 MPH avg. over 4 hours. One small stone chip after 20 hours highway driving and a clear or leather bra would not have prevented that as it is 10 inches up the hood from the Star. Have even had a Thule roof rack on with Mountain Bike, have yet to take a photo, but will do so in the next few weeks. Dealer gave me the cargo tray, it is great. Have had the rear seats folded down flat, very nifty setup !
Taking C 240 in next Tuesday for first oil change over to Mobil 1 Synthetic 15W50, I'm supplying the oil. Expect cost to be about $30 (filter & labor). Also changed out stock low beam bulbs for Philips Vision Plus H-7s, definitely brighter on the backroads....Love the Ride...AWESOME !!! & Bose Stereo is phenomenal also.
When will this Tree Pollen go away...LOL
MB has given you the multi-color black paint. It varies depending on the thickness of pollen on it :-)
BTW, silver hardly shows any pollen, though it shows up inside and on your windows...