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Reads like an Urban Legend to me. I can't believe any MB salesman would say that any of their products are made in Brazil, even if it were true! AFAIK there are no MB plants in Brazil. Maybe you're getting mixed up with VW which does have plants in Brazil? Anyway you lost $1200 for nothing because the C is German made.
Reminds me when I was in college and I roomed with a family who imported furniture from Taiwan. All the furniture in their house had little "Made in Taiwan" stickers on them. When they bought a new Volvo, as a lark, I surreptiously stuck 5 or 6 "Made in Taiwan" stickers inside the glove box, on the jack, etc. I wonder if they've found those stickers yet.
nabzy
-First, on the C-Coupe, there is a separate Edmunds board topic on this one - look for it in the sports / coupe sub-topic. It has been quite busy of late, has a lot of good info postings, and at the same time is not so large that you can't go back aways and read forward so as to not have missed much. Bottom line: this looks like a good car. I myself plan a test drive sometime in the next couple of weeks. My dealer has one each demo of both manual and automatic coupes, but it was a zoo the last time I dropped in and I promised my guy I would make an appointment at a less busy time. I am anxious to try the car, but will post my reactions on the C230 Coupe - 2002 Board, which is what I think it is called.
-Second, yes, some North American-bound Cs are coming from Brazil. Get used to it. By itself, this is not grounds for a buyer's revolt, or claiming to be misled, etc. On the other hand, buying a lemon, no matter where built, IS grounds for outrage. Just don't blame it on the final assembly point - there are plenty of negative experiences out there on cars from Sindelfingen and Bremen [do you know where your C was actually built? you do if you can decipher the data card for the vehicle, but otherwise, I would bet not.]
It's an all-too-true observation that the Germans do not seem to manage the process of getting the same quality out of their non-homeland plants as the Japanese. Whether you are talking about VW, BMW, MB, or Porsche [yes, Virginia, there are Boxsters assembled outside Germany, in Finland], they struggle to get uniformity into their assembly processes, whereas the Japanese make it look easy. Still, quality audits are supposed to be the same for the same model wherever they are built. Regardless, you have to accept the idea that your "precision-engineered" German car may come from someplace other than the Fatherland.
-MB: USA, South Africa, Brazil, Germany [three different plants in Germany], Austria
-BMW: USA, South Africa, Germany [at least three different locations in Germany]
-VW: Mexico, Brazil, Germany [two or three different plants] plus Spain, Hungary, Czecho, etc.
-Porsche: Germany and Finland
-Audi: Germany, plus Hungary and other EU locations
From March/April Issue of The Star Magazine page 47
"......Starting early this year C-Class sedans are being brought to the U.S. from both Germany and a Mercedes-Benz plant at Juiz de Fora, near Sao Paulo in Brazil"
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm?/news/top/2000/t00905_e.htm
How do you determine if the car was made in Brazil? By the VIN?
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm?/news/top/1999/t90423_e.htm
I don't care how many quality surveys they do, until the workers get some "practice" building this car, the build quality will be suspect on these. I wonder if this explains many of the disparities regarding owner experiences here on this board, I'd love to see the initial quality surveys of the Brazil Cs versus the German ones.
I note that the Daimler-Chrysler info. states that only the Avantgarde and Elegance models are being assembled in BR. So I guess I'd be safe from the third world quality control ;-) by getting a Classic (CDN base model). Actually, it may only be possible to ensure that one is buying a German-made C if doing a European delivery.
On the other hand, that the factory in Brazil is assembling CKD cars is probably a good thing, as all the welding and painting will have been done in Germany, not to mention assembly of subunits such as engine and drivetrain.
Still, I would personally not want to have a Brazilian-made C. In that regard I sympathise with the guy that posted above and returned his C after learning of its assembly location. Mexican VWs had very bad quality for quite a time. I'm not sure if it's totally under control yet. Mercedes is perhaps risking their reputation by not being clear enough with customers that their car may come from Brazil. In fact, it may even be possible for the dealer to tell after the order is confirmed where the particular car will be made.
Mike
"By itself, this is not grounds for a buyer's revolt, or claiming to be misled, etc."
Unfortunately, to me it is. I guess we've gotten used to the thought that Mercedes-Benz means German engineering, German built, German precision, etc., etc.
Imagine the new ads:
"Your Mercedes-Benz vehicle, proudly produced in Brazil, (or S. Korea, Bangladesh, China, Syria, Khazakstan, Inner Mongolia)"
just doesn't sound the same.
No.
Would I buy a MB made in Brazil?
No.
Would the resale value of a Brazilian made MB be the same as a German one?
I think not.
Thanks,
JR
I have to say that the last flurry of posts on this topic has me chuckling a bit...5 years from now, no one is going to give a flying leap whether your used MB came from Brazil or Bremen or Sindelfingen or Rastatt or Capetown.
What you all SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT is the general slip in corporate quality control that has been all too evident with the introduction of the A, S, ML, and now the C. In some ways, we have beaten this topic to death, so I won't add any more blows now. DCX needs to make sure their corporate focus on growing doesn't ruin the MB franchise...as I've said before, these are marvelous cars that carry the burden of upholding the tradition and reputation of their predecessors. This seems to have been forgotten in a headlong rush for more sales and market penetration.
If the upcoming E, with all of its taxi and commercial customers in Europe, has the same kind of rocky start, there will be h... to pay. These people do not suffer quietly when they line up for their new Es every 7 years, if the car disappoints.
And finally, a question: is it safe to assume that none of you would buy an ML because it is made in Alabama? Certainly the quality of the first 18 mos of production there was awful, but not because the plant was new, but because they set their sights too low in picking some of their parts suppliers, a classic mistake the Japanese never make.
Unfortunately, I don't have the confidence [or data] to make any generalizations about the Germans, except to note [as mentioned above] that despite any number of occasions on which "quality victory" has been declared, VW still can't get the same level of defects out of its Mexican plant as it does in EU. That hasn't stopped them from claiming otherwise, of course...
If all these problems we have been talking about in this forum have all been coming from Brazilian C's, then in 5 years, the resale of these cars will be pretty much zilch.
Speaking of MLs, MLs for US consumption are only produced in one place: in Alabama. If we had a choice of buying a ML from Graz or Alabama, I'm sure most people would choose Graz.
One other thing about overseas production, you might have heard that Porsches produced in Finland exceed the quality of those made in der Vaterland, so we know that cars don't have to be made in Germany, these other countries just have to prove themselves first.
THanks in advance
You have to have 3 instances of trying to fix one thing without it getting fixed. I'm thinking that it's going to apply in many of the cases we've heard here...
Plant in India. It produces cars? To which country?
I beg to differ with those that say the country of origin should/will have no influence over customer perception.
Let's face the facts here - branded products are sold as much on their intangible "cachet" as on their actual characteristics. For motor vehicles, especially those that have historically had a lot of the characteristics of the country of origin built in, such as Mercedes, this factor must not be underestimated.
This is a real issue, and many potential customers of premium automobiles care about this now, and will still care about this in 20 years.
Mike
Miki
I bought two C320's and neither had window stickers on them when I picked them up. The only time I had a window sticker on a car was when the car was already in stock.
Miki
I don't judge a car based on its brand name, its country of origin or its price. The basis of my evaluation comes from a long test drive and detailed examination of its features, fit and finish, and safety records, etc.
If there is a problem with the Hondas made in Canada or the VWs made in Mexico, the BMWs or Mercedes made in the US or the Opels made in Germany, its the car manufacturer's problem with design and/or quality control at the plant.
If the clothes were of bad quality, then they wouldn't make it to the market. I think we need to not complain about where the car was produced but about the QA that is done on these cars.
i don't mean to start anything here.. just giving my 2 cents on this...
Miki
Anyway, to drift back on topic, I think my sentiments on vehicle origin are shared by many and Mercedes-Benz would be wise to consider this. Of course, not everyone will feel the same way about this or globalization, and that's OK too.
Mike
For those who don't mind their MBs made in Brazil and who haven't bought their cars yet, do you mind specifically asking for a Brazilian made C-class?
You see, I mind very much. And this way, when it comes time to buy my 2001+ C-class, I know I will have more German made C-classes to choose from.
My personal belief is that most of us in developed countries are too ignorant about the social and economic condition in developing countries to make meaningful informed and intelligent decisions on these people's behalf.
Who knows, even with good intention, we could be hurting the workers in many developing countries not buying their products. Without customers, the factories will close and you'll have hungry unemployed people. Or perhaps we should starve them push them over the edge to revolt against the corrupted leaders for their long term betterment? This exercise gets very complicated and I certainly don't feel that I have the capacity to want to get involved in a responsible way, definitely not while my source of information comes from but the popular media.
As a consumer, I welcome car companies moving to countries with a cheaper labour force if they can maintain if nor even improve on the quality and reduce in cost. Globalization is about the law of comparative advantage letting people do what they are better at resulting in a more efficient and progressive world economy increasing everyone's standard of living. Sure it has an ugly side (even democracy has an ugly side), but overall, globalization if properly carried out has been one of the proven ways to improve the lives of many, look at Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, etc.
And about Mercedes made in Brazil? Again, I think we all agree that it all boils down to whether the quality will be compromised. Without a track record, of course we all stay away from them not wanting to take the risk but it will be a different picture in the long run if the Brazilian models prove to be more reliable and better made.
This discussion reminds me of a story: About twenty years ago I was in a conversation with a fellow who was on a rant about how he "Wouldn't ever buy any of that foreign car junk". I allowed as how he was right, but it was so hard to tell what you were getting these days, like my own cars, at the time, one was imported and one was domestic, and I challenged him to tell me which was which. You see I had a Ford Crown Victoria Station Wagon imported from Canada and a Volkswagen GTI built in Pennsylvania by skilled American Union Labor. His car? A Chrysler product with an engine and drive train from Japan! Boy, was he ever mad at me when I pointed out that little plate under his hood that he had never bothered to read.
Bubba
"... My friends all drive Porsches, I must make AMENDS..." J. Joplin
It is against Federal law for a new car to be delivered to a consumer without the "Monroney" Federal price sticker, which includes [among other things] the MSRP, a list of standard equipment, an EPA fuel mileage statement, an EPA emissions statement, the country of origin of certain principal parts, and the final assembly point. If you have been delivered not once, but twice, from the same dealer without the Federal sticker, it might be a good idea to remind them of the law, gently but firmly. I have the original sticker from every car we have ever purchased new since the law went into effect, which in my case is quite a collection.
Technically, the dealer is not even supposed to remove the sticker before retail delivery - practically, how this works usually is to have the sticker presented to you as part of the paperwork at closing.
Finally, I guess I too have to observe that vehicle quality is a function of a total corporate commitment to a system [parts selection, supplier monitoring, plant engineering, assembly practices, problem solving, management practices and attitudes, worker training and retraining], independent of car design, that refuses to settle for defects as some kind of inevitability, like the weather. Stuff happens, but the best auto makers jump on problems quickly, learn quickly, and fix the problems at the source in a timely fashion. THE JAPANESE HAVE DEMONSTRATED THAT THIS HAS ASOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POLITICAL OR PHYSICAL JURISDICTION OF THE FINAL ASSEMBLY POINT. What some of you seem to be saying is that you cannot or will not trust Daimler-Benz to have such a system in place. I respect that point of view...but think hard about what it says and really means...
And yes, Miki, that plate tells you that your car was assembled in Germany during the month of April. The assembly date has lots of potential importance, one of which is when the airbag system requires inspection...used to be 10 years, but I think they have extended it now that field experience indicates no significant problems in going much longer.
Yes, that's right. Before the 1st world auto companies came along, these unemployed auto workers were all laying on their behinds being unemployed, or were bandits.
"Without customers, the factories will close and you'll have hungry unemployed people."
I think this kind of rhetoric is simplistic in the extreme, not to mention condescending and arrogant.
But I agree with this:
"And about Mercedes made in Brazil? Again, I think we all agree that it all boils down to whether the quality will be compromised. Without a track record, of course we all stay away from them not wanting to take the risk but it will be a different picture in the long run if the Brazilian models prove to be more reliable and better made."
jrct -- I do a lot of research before I buy -- whether it be a car, a TV, or a CDRW. It is just a matter of having some control in life and making the final decision on the facts as you know them. My old BMW, which never gave me any problems, was manufactured in Germany and when looking at new cars, my final decision was between the 330i and the C320. At this point, I cannot say whether or not knowing I might receive a C manufactured in Brazil would have influenced my final decision --I just do not like buying a car thinking it was made in Germany and finding out it was made in Brazil after the fact.
The C is the first car I bought on my own, and I did not know it was illegal (or unusual) to take delivery of a car without the sticker (twice). Of course, I had seen the sticker on the showroom cars -- Up until a month ago, I still had the original sticker from a BMW bought for me in 1987.
Miki
I picked up my Silver C 240 (2002) with Auto Transmission on Sun Roof Package, the prices have gone up; the base price now reads $30,500, and Silver Color Costs me $650. The CAR came last week but it took me five additional days as I was waiting for my credit union cheque, the odometer was reading 14 miles (I am assuming CAR is being used as demo) I got a window Sticker but it was not on a window rather it was kept in a glove BOX, it says 81% parts made in Germany and Zero % in US/CANADA, but it has no indication of rest 19%? the CAR is made in Germany - so far no problems, the salesperson did not know that EXPRESS window shut down and UP only works from sideways, you can see little sensor near door handle (front door, both sides). other wise no problems at all, SOS activation was a great experience.
Our dealer offers FREE CAR wash, he also offered free CD changer on my purchase.
thanks for all your posts
THE JAPANESE HAVE DEMONSTRATED THAT THIS (Quality) HAS ASOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POLITICAL OR PHYSICAL JURISDICTION OF THE FINAL ASSEMBLY POINT.
Unfortunately, the facts do not bear this out. Honda and Toyota both had excessive quality control problems when they first started manufacturing cars in the United States. Most have since been corrected, but that is little consolation to many purchasers of early US built Accords and Camrys that were simply not up to Japanese production standards. To this day, most of the "premium" Japanese models (e.g. Acura, Infinity, Lexus, even Nissan Maxima) continue to be assembled in Japan.
I am a neighbor of a senior level Daimler Chrysler executive who is a German national living in the US. It takes but one Heinekin to get him to lament the un-Mercedes like problems of the M-class assembled in the US. He is careful not to blame US management or autoworkers, but it is clear that he believes the differences in business culture and general pride in workmanship between the two countires has created significant challanges for Mercedes. I understand that BMW has had some similar difficulties with its "Z-3" made in the US.
Personally, I know absolutely nothing about the Brazilian plants or the quality of products they put out. I do sense, however, that the Mercedes reputation is built - in part - upon a long history of designing and producing quality products under carefully controlled conditions, usually in their own back yard. As a former Marriott Coporation executive myself, I know that replicating a corporate culture and commitment to quality a hemisphere away can indeed be done. But it is not easy or automatic, and there is a learning curve to be navigated in the process.
That is an excellent way of putting it. In today's PC world it's usual to say there is no difference between nations, blah, blah, blah, but that's just not true.
If the physical assembly point of the final product does not matter I would like to know why English production of cars since 1945 has almost ceased whereas German automobiles have gained the reputation of the ultimate automobile.
No, many of them are farmers who left their home town miles away. And it's not as easy for them to return home just and pick up their old jobs as conveniently as we may think. Their old farm land might have already been bought off by developers turning into a more profitable short run project. Many of these workers may not want to give up what they have now, who are we to want to stick our hands in and dictate their lives?
>I think this kind of rhetoric is simplistic in the extreme, not to mention condescending and arrogant.
The reasoning is that if no one buys any goods from these factories worldwide, in the short run, obviously the businesses will be forced to close down, many workers will be unemployed and have to find other work, if the effect is serious enough. There will be a long adjustment period for these laborers working in the cities to return to the country side to farm if that is even possible. Trust me, the last thing these workers want is buyers from all over the world to boycott their products.
In the long run, if there is a drastic reduction in commerce and trade between the developing and the developed countries, you will have a serious problem with recession and depression worldwide which will only lead to social unrest.
I'm not talking about just a few car manufurers, but the consequences if we just stop globalization all together.
I did see on ebay someone was selling their C and it had aftermarket navigation system and the works. I tried to find the auction to ask the owner but it was over.
there is a nice one with a lorinser package though... if anyone wants to see....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=593698781
Also, IMHO, Brazil is not a 3rd world country. They are a modern industrial nation in South America. The issue has more to do with whether this particular plant has been making Cs long enough to have good quality, which is a legitimate question for the purchaser.
Most purchasers of this car will probably not be alert to this, but it will be interesting to see how dealers cope with customers who notice and complain (before they get your check of course).
I'd like to see an assembly quality study that compares cars built from scratch in a single factory to those whose major components are assembled in one factory, and are finally assembled in another. My intuition tells me that the CKD car will not be as well-assembled. I guess the onus is on Mercedes-Benz to assuage these concerns with just such a study. Until then, I'm going to avoid the CKD version.
Mike
"Also, IMHO, Brazil is not a 3rd world country. They are a modern industrial nation in South America."
IMHO Brazil is not a modern industrial nation. Germany, the US, Japan are modern industrial nations. But neither is Brazil 3rd world. They are somewhere in between, 2nd world. I seem to recall that Argentina might be the most industrialized in South America. Brazil might come in 2nd.
It is against Federal law for a new car to be delivered to a consumer without the "Monroney" Federal price sticker, which includes [among other things] the MSRP, a list of standard equipment, an EPA fuel mileage statement, an EPA emissions statement, the country of origin of certain principal parts, and the final assembly point.
After reading the above paragraph, I pulled out the price sticker that that came with my C240. Interestingly, every item required by law (as described above) was on the sticker, except for the (guess what?)the country of origin and final assembly point! So, I dashed to the garage to check the tag on the door and (Whew), it said Stuttgart. Now, my question is: how come the final assembly point is not on the Monroney Federal Price Sticker? Should I gently remind the dealer about this?
please reply
Let me tell you something, most MB worker in the Sindelfingen/Stuttgart factory are not German, they are Turk, Greek, Italian, Serbien, etc...
In German language they call these people " Gastarbeiter ", they do all the jobs most German don't want to do. They are doing all the dirts jobs.
When I was a college student in Germany, I work part time in the summer at the MB factory, and I found lots of the worker are not German.
I think MB car made in Brazil will have the same quality like the one from Germany, the German are smart, they'll sure put German to supervise important position.
Joe
In any case, the door plate and data plate and data card have all of this and more, including OEM supplier info for a lot of the subsystems...assuming the dealers still give you the data card...I always got one with all of my Mercedes, but our last new purchase was the '98 E.
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscellaneous/MonroneySticker.htm
Many other articles I saw indicated the same thing: only prices and EPA mileage estimates are required. There were no Cs at the dealer when I stopped the other day, but after reading this, I guess it is possible to omit this from the sticker, even though I know I have seen it on all the other cars I've looked at. Bummer, there may be no way for a prospective buyer to get this information. Hey, they could change that door plate too, couldn't they?
I think that CKD kit refers to a knockdown kit for the car. They ship the car in a piece part kit form to Brazil, where it is assembled. Someone correct me on this if I am wrong. It's also amazing to me that this is economical. Wouldn't it be easier to ship this kit to some other country on the European mainland, reachable by train or truck?