Mentioning other car sites on Edmunds is in violation of the terms of service, (TOS).
Fair enough sounds good to me. Maybe claires can verify this for us. The host with the most!! Even though some of my posts get taken off. probably all for the better!!
If I were to rank the three minivans, I would rank the Honda first, Toyota second and the Dodge third, even though I own a 2005 Dodge and have had no trouble with it at all.
The only real advantage the Dodge has on the other two, is Stow-n-Go and if your using your van just for people hauling, that advantage is gone.
I think if some people are like me and use your van to carry other things besides just passengers, or you have a couple of kids and carry a lot of stuff in your van because of them, the Dodge is a lot handier. It really is more family and work friendly than any other van on the market. But for hauling passengers, looks and quality of the interior, the Toyota and Honda are the best you can get.
I am only glad that after years of having all kinds of problems with Chrysler vans, Chrysler and other American manufactures have finally got their act together and realized that you have to put out a reliable product if you want to have repeat customers. I feel lucky that in buying my first minivan, Chrysler seems to have put out a good reliable van, even if it doesn't have all the new innovations that are on the Honda. It does do all the things I want it to do and does it well, for a very good price and I think it looks good. That's all I ask for in a van.
c) DCX - true to original, take the kids to school, band practice etc....do everything minivan
Well I'm outta here for weekend, taking Coleman Popup RV camping with gang of friends, into the wilds of Northern Michigan where the closest Starbucks is a whole 30 ">minutes away!!
I looked at the chart before it was pulled, it was flawed in several ways but I didn't have time to respond last night. And now don't have it to refer to but here's some tidbits:
The biggest flaw is listing depreciation % using todays prices vs resale prices of older vans. That doesn't work because the price today is completely different than the price of prior models. Plus models change, content changes, etc. You MUST know the average selling price of the previous model to compare it to todays resale value.
I also don't know where they got the lease numbers from, but they don't add up. Here are lease quotes from online sources (chryslers website and another that compares lease companies quotes, not sure I can list the name...)
Honda Odyssey EX, negotiated price $27,153 (per edmunds "what others are paying") with zero down and 12k miles per year:
36 months-$403 48 months-$375
Chrysler T&C Touring with side bags, 12k miles per year, price per Chrysler Financial which also includes a Owner Loyalty credit of $2,000 which may or maynot apply to you:
39 months-$451 48 months-$427
If you're going to compare lease prices, that's fine. It just throws a bunch of garbage into the equation that you can monkey with to make it look good one way or the other. Terms, models, downpayment, etc. all have to be identical in order to make any sense. I've tried to do that above the best is possible. However, by comparing leasing rates, if you get the terms/conditions EXACT it all comes down to residual values. And I've quoted the residuals here before and the Ody is far and away better. The only way you can make a T&C cheaper over 3,4,5 years using residuals is if you assume the Ody is going to sell at MSRP and the DC at employee price, minus discounts. Plus add in present value of cash or finance charges. It's still fairly close even at that point.
Chrysler T&C Touring with side bags, 12k miles per year, price per Chrysler Financial which also includes a Owner Loyalty credit of $2,000 which may or maynot apply to you:
39 months-$451 48 months-$427
With zero percent interest, I bought cheaper than that 39 month lease.
I hope everyone uses edmunds ody ex TMV only as a starting point, those vans are selling at $26k everywhere.
Oh, I agree entirely but I've been harrassed for quoting what I paid (invoice) because apparently someone somebody knows paid retail so that's what everyone is paying. I paid invoice back in April and at that time a similarly equipped T&C out the door was only $1800 less. That was buying the T&C at invoice plus I think there was $3,000 rebate at the time. At $1800 difference, the T&C will likely cost a lot more because of resale.
I don't worry about depreciation. For one, with Stow-n-Go, I doubt these vans will depreciate like the older ones did. I know two people right now that want one but don't want to buy it new. Second, we kept our 1993 Eagle Vision until we bought our 2004 Civic. I kept my 1987 Ford pickup until I bought my 2001 Dodge Dakota. By the time I get rid of this minivan, depreciation will be the last thing I worry about. No, I bought it for 60 months.
"Pretty sad when it takes incentives like that in order to move product wouldn't you agree? "
YES indeed. GM just reported $318M loss in the past quarter much of it due to emplyee pricing. The same to occur at Chrysler and Ford as well with their employee pricing. Just do the math!
"If I were to rank the three minivans, I would rank the Honda first, Toyota second and the Dodge third, even though I own a 2005 Dodge and have had no trouble with it at all. "
Just like C & D, Motor Trend, Money, Auto week, Kiplingers, Road & Track, etc.
YES indeed. GM just reported $318M loss in the past quarter much of it due to emplyee pricing. The same to occur at Chrysler and Ford as well with their employee pricing. Just do the math!
Actually, GM's losses have more to do with other issues. The employee pricing hasn't changed their actual incentive cost much at all. Folks that don't understand this program think it's something special. GM's incentive costs/vehicle only went up by $136 from May to June. This is because the dealers are taking the brunt of the loss in revenue per vehicle. The flip-side is they can sell more cars. Many GM dealers were doing this before, it was not hard with some negotiating to buy most any GM at invoice which is very close to employee pricing.
The biggest effect the employee pricing has had is PR. Folks think they're getting a great deal (and the folks that can't bargain or weren't willing to bargain are getting a better deal) which has caused a huge upswing in sales. GM's inventory level is actually where it should be now, which is quite impressive. They had 73 days worth of inventory at the beginning of June, now they have 48 days. Might actually be the smartest thing they've done yet.
Ford and DC desperately needs to move inventory as well. They have 80 days supply as of July 1. DC had 73 days.
I looked at the chart before it was pulled, it was flawed in several ways but I didn't have time to respond last night. And now don't have it to refer to but here's some tidbits:
The biggest flaw is listing depreciation % using todays prices vs resale prices of older vans. That doesn't work because the price today is completely different than the price of prior models. Plus models change, content changes, etc. You MUST know the average selling price of the previous model to compare it to todays resale value.
I was thinking that last night!! How can you take todays price and put it on a 1995 car. There is so much crap being pushed on the site its hard to flush it all. Thanks for your great observation!! SPIN BUSTED!!!
did the leasing companies up the residual value on the stow N go vans? I think your second and third sentence pretty much contradict each other and unfortunately one is your perception and the other is reality
I'm afraid that won't happen. I am hoping if I buy another minivan, it will be a Ford or G.M. model.
I wasn't prepared for that. Wow, at least the Sienna, Ody, T&C are in the same ballpark. There was an article in Automotive news last week (or week before maybe) that Ford has no intention of competing in the minivan market. They claim they are happy with their market share and have no intention of developing anything special. They claim sport-wagons are the wave of the future and that's where they're spending their development time/$$. So if you love the Freestar...I guess you're in business. I'll bet you could get a good deal on a Mercury version though, they've got a years worth of them sitting around in inventory.
I plan on keeping my 2005 for many, many years. I believe by then, there will be many changes. My only reason for buying the Dodge was because of stow-n-go, even though I thought the Toyota and Honda are nicer. Their five speed transmission or new engine wouldn't be any reason to buy either. The Dodge runs fast enough and shifts just fine. Looks of both are very nice, but I didn't didn't give up a pickup for a van that looks nice. I use it for more than carrying people around town.
As for spirited handling, if that was a priority to me, I sure wouldn't have bought a minivan.
You might think me an old man that runs down the streets at 25-30 miles an hour holding up traffic, but that's far from being the case. I was a professional driver my whole working life and I'll keep up with any traffic, city or freeway.
"...much of it due to emplyee(or employee) pricing"
Wrong. The GM employee discount helped reduce their bloated inventories, but added little to the bottom line. According to G.M.."The culprits were lower production to compensate for growing inventories early in the year, a less favorable sales mix of cars to higher-margin trucks and SUV's, and rising health-care costs." Rick Wagoner CEO plans are to close plants and eliminate 25,000 U.S manufacturing jobs by 2008.
As for spirited handling, if that was a priority to me, I sure wouldn't have bought a minivan.
Well a minivan or a SUV is all that will hold my family. The SUV is not for me! I don't offroad(would rather hike) or tow(don't own any toys) prefer to rent them or freeload on a friend. I enjoy a car that handle well so the Honda was great for me. If in your situation I may have bought the dodge(if it had VSC) I agree with a large amount of what you say and believe your choice was the best for you as mine was for me. So if anyone is really out there looking for a van. Most of the time I think we just do this for ourselves. Test drive, compare price and feature(People think so many things about what features are important) The new dodge commercials say if you can find a better car buy it!! I think this is great advice that's why I bought the Odyssey(LOL)!!!
I like the vehicles I drive to be great handling and spirited performers. Whether it is a minivan, sedan, or truck. In each category and within each category, if applicable, there are better performers for handling and spirited performance.
So if anyone is really out there looking for a van. Most of the time I think we just do this for ourselves. Test drive, compare price and feature(People think so many things about what features are important) The new dodge commercials say if you can find a better car buy it!! I think this is great advice that's why I bought the Odyssey(LOL)!!!
I agree. But for me, I knew what I was going to use my minivan for. To me, that is the real important thing. All vans will hold at least seven people. All have air, automatic transmission, power windows,etc. Some look nicer than others. But it's more important how your going to use it. I wouldn't buy a Dodge, or Ford if I carried eight people. They wouldn't hold it. I also wouldn't buy a Honda if I was carrying three or four kids and also using the van to carry building materials, furniture, tent, camping equipment or things like that. It wouldn't fit my needs. So people need to really think on how they're going to use their van. That's more important.
I agree. But for me, I knew what I was going to use my minivan for. To me, that is the real important thing. All vans will hold at least seven people. All have air, automatic transmission, power windows,etc. Some look nicer than others. But it's more important how your going to use it. I wouldn't buy a Dodge, or Ford if I carried eight people. They wouldn't hold it. I also wouldn't buy a Honda if I was carrying three or four kids and also using the van to carry building materials, furniture, tent, camping equipment or things like that. It wouldn't fit my needs. So people need to really think on how they're going to use their van. That's more important.
Right on!!! If you buy something you can't use and don't like it WILL COST YOU!!
Is the the recall from april 15 2004!! That's yesterdays news! It was to inspect replaced transmissions because of poor second gear lubrication. If it's new please tell me I can't find one!!
I didn't think there was ever a offical recall. I thought it was more of just a technical service bulletin before. Also, I thought it was the 2000-2002 Odys affected. Honda extended the transmission warranty because of this so called nonproblem problem. Mac...maybe its you and socalawd stuck in that cave with Osama watching the Spice Channel? :P ( I believe his anti-western ideology keeps him from subscribing to Playboy)
ALG residual values can be found on their website and also Honda website www.honda.com , Honda claims the ALG numbers as competetive advantage
ALG residual values for 2005 models after 60 months are: 2005 Honda Odyssey EX 4dr Minivan (3.5L 6cyl 5A) ALG residual is - 38% with Edmunds TMV of $26,572 ALG Value left is $10097 ALG value lost 26572-10097 = $16474 Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3573 Actual Value lost = 16474+3573 = $20,047
2005 Toyota Sienna XLE 7 Passenger Fwd 4dr Minivan (3.3L 6cyl 5A) ALG residual is - 37% with Edmunds TMV of $26,989 ALG Value left is $9985 ALG value lost 26989-9985 = $17003 Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3573 Actual Value lost = 17003+3573 = $20,576
2005 Chrysler Town and Country Touring 4dr Ext Minivan (3.8L 6cyl 4A) ALG residual is 29% with Edmunds TMV of $24,840, with an Autual dealer quote of $23,570 ALG Value left is $6835 ALG value lost 23570-6835 = $16734 Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3004 Actual Value lost = 16734+3004 = $19,738
The above are identical models.
True value lost after 5 years, based on ALG projections for 2005 models Honda - $20,047 Toyota - $20,576 Chrysler - $19,738
This recall was very quietly expanded to 1.14 million vehicles around July 3 of this year:
"Honda’s North American recall includes 2003- and 2004-model Accords, 2000- through early 2004-model Acura TL sedans, and 2001- through 2003-model Acura CLs, Boyd said. In April, the company recalled 600,000 U.S. and Canadian Odyssey minivans, and Pilot and Acura MDX sport-utility vehicles with the same transmission."
Even if there hypothetical numbers are true, the extra enjoyment of driving a superior handling and energetic vehicle like the Ody is more than worth the difference(20047 - 19738= 309) especially over a 5 year period. I am prepared to pay more than 3 times that amount for ONE year - so at 5 years, it is indeed a bargain.
Now, if I were a retiree in one of those Florida communities, I won't care a rat's hair about that.
Residual value comparo in CarMax ad in today's newspaper in NC as a rough estimate,
'00-'03 Ody starting from $15,998 '00-'02 MPV starting from $11,599 '00-'03 DGC starting from $9,998 '99-04 Sienna starting from $10,599 '01-03 Windstar starting from $9,998 '01-03 Venture starting from $12,599
Using '00 as a reference/trend, we can see how far ahead the Ody's residual is.
Stale news only because it's a Honda! It wouldn't be stale if it had been the other way around.
The 600,000 recall is virtually all of the 2002-2004 Ody production. This indicates a design problem which appears to be inconceivable by flag waving lovers of the Honda deity. The Chrysler TE-41 used in Chrysler's mini-vans is a good design that has suffered from some component quality issues, but about half failures can be attributed to using Dexron-Mercon ATF instead of the correct MS-7176.
There was some disbelief a little while ago when I posted that the failure rate of the Ody is about the same as the Chrysler mini-vans. Nowadays its actually higher that the same model years of Chrysler versions. Our local television station here in Rochester, New York had an interesting news story about how the Ody transmission design has negatively affected used Ody resale values with a few people that have had as many as three transmission replacements in three years.
You sound like you know more about Honda vehicles than Honda itself!
Wow! Very Interesting!! Indeed!!
I have also used the news media myself to my advantage to blow things up to give public awareness of a personal challenge my family have faced to get satisfactory resolution.
But does all the public face the same challenge I had? HELL NO!!
But I used the news media as a vehicle/ammunition to achieve my objective.
The example you've posted is no surprise and doesn't tell us anything about lost value. Sure the Honda has a higher used price. They were more costly to begin with. A scan through the latest Car Trader demonstrates roughly the same. But the true indication of value is the comparable loss in the period of ownership, and in this respect the Honda proves it has lower residual value as HRAO pointed out.
Besides, used values are often extremely inflated to local market. Around here the Dodge and Chrysler are a little higher and the Windstars are a little lower.
Stale news only because it's a Honda! It wouldn't be stale if it had been the other way around.
I didn't like the way it was stated like it just came out yesterday. Other than that I have no issue with it.
There was some disbelief a little while ago when I posted that the failure rate of the Ody is about the same as the Chrysler mini-vans. Nowadays its actually higher that the same model years of Chrysler versions. Our local television station here in Rochester, New York had an interesting news story about how the Ody transmission design has negatively affected used Ody resale values with a few people that have had as many as three transmission replacements in three years.
So I'm sure you have some proof about the failure rates between the on the dodge and odyssey transmissions. The recall works as follows. The transmission had poor lubrication to second gear, if your car had less than 15,000 miles on it it was modified, if it had more than 15,000 it was inspected any sign of wear it was replaced. The transmission is being covered for 100,000 miles. In the mid 90's my friend had a Intrepid that needed 3 transmissions in the first 2 years(company car). I had one two and it needed one right after 50K miles. Is this a clear indication that the 41TE is bad no maybe it was a fluke, thats what the Dodge people are telling me!! A news story from a local news station don't impress me much!!
The used values are all relative to show an estimate of which vehicles are where in the residual value pecking order.
Lost value is a mixed bag when it comes to a vehicle. It is similar to buying the same/similar house in two different neighborhoods, one in golf course community and another in a "ghetto" area. One will buy the "ghetto neighborhood house because of value; another will buy the more expensive same house to enjoy the better qualities and higher appreciating house in the golf course community.
Which one you think is more attractive in the long term and appreciate more?
For me, the superior handling and performance of the Ody is priceless and the higher residual cannot be beat for a few extra grand!
True value lost after 5 years, based on ALG projections for 2005 models Honda - $20,047 Toyota - $20,576 Chrysler - $19,738
Of course in your post yesterday you said Toyota and Chrysler were way better. Now the honda loses less value than the toyota and the Chrysler is about the same 300.00 dollars for 5 years. So which of you truths are true!! BTW throw me in a Dodge SXT with 6 cd changer and sideairbags please LOL. :P
Actually, residuals against leased vehicles are weighted differently than sold vehicles because lease prices are based against MSRP. In the sold world the Dodge and Chrysler mini-vans have a stronger advantage because of discounts, whereas on Hondas the discounts are not as deep.
Don't make car purchase decision based solely on the past. Companies that made good cars in the past don't guaranteed that they're making good cars now or will they in the future and vice versa. I always make car purchase decision based on price and warranty coverage.
As a matter of fact, I do have some proof of failure rates, but they are local to three transmission rebuilders in my area. Regardless, I don't think you'd be accepting it anyways.
As to the 41TE, it depends on the year Intrepid. Yes, they had problems with the shift packs, most notably the solenoid plungers would become magnetized over time. The electrical connectors used back a ways were inadequate for keeping moisture out of the terminations and this caused shift control problems. But the biggest problem was inadequate maintenance, or even worse, using Dexron-Mercon ATF. Still today there are transmission repair places that use Dexron-Mercon in a Chrysler rebuild.
I saw a lot of Chrysler transmissions "rebuilt" back then that didn't need it. In the vast majority of times removing the valve body, installing a new shift pack, and cleaning up the electrical connectors would put a customer back on the road. However, its unfortunate that a good deal of transmission repair establishments could not diagnose the transmission properly because they didn't have DRB, or chose to just sell the customer a rebuild. After all, how does the average person really know whats defective in their transmission? In addition, being the first with electronically controlled transmissions, there was a great deal of animosity in the transmission repair industry against Chrysler because special and expensive diagnostic equipment was required in order to correctly diagnose a problem. So, many were just "rebuilt."
So yes, Chrysler transmissions had some problems and they've long been addressed.
As to the news story, the point is that the word is starting to get out that the Honda Ody is not quite so perfect a vehicle as the congregation believes.
My order for an Ocean Mist Metallic 2006 Odyssey EX (cloth) was contingent upon me NOT buying one of the nice, discounted 2005 Sienna LE that are due in any day or an equally nice, discounted 2005 Grand Caravan SXT if one becomes available before the Ody arrives. IF I were a very aggressive driver like some owners of minivans, I would not buy a GC SXT and would go with the Sienna LE as it seemed to be much more responsive than the 2005 Ody EX. I think the Sienna transmission is THE BEST transmission in a minivan....and frankly, I do have some concern about the reliability of the Odyssey transmission after it has been plaqued with problems for many years. :sick: Now that I test drove the Sienna and Ody and mac mentioned the "whiny" DC transmissions, I do notice the whine of my T&C transmission more than I had in the past.
Comments
Fair enough sounds good to me. Maybe claires can verify this for us. The host with the most!! Even though some of my posts get taken off. probably all for the better!!
Yep, Terms of Usage here prohibit any kind of solicitation, including directing members to other auto online communities.
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The only real advantage the Dodge has on the other two, is Stow-n-Go and if your using your van just for people hauling, that advantage is gone.
I think if some people are like me and use your van to carry other things besides just passengers, or you have a couple of kids and carry a lot of stuff in your van because of them, the Dodge is a lot handier. It really is more family and work friendly than any other van on the market. But for hauling passengers, looks and quality of the interior, the Toyota and Honda are the best you can get.
I am only glad that after years of having all kinds of problems with Chrysler vans, Chrysler and other American manufactures have finally got their act together and realized that you have to put out a reliable product if you want to have repeat customers. I feel lucky that in buying my first minivan, Chrysler seems to have put out a good reliable van, even if it doesn't have all the new innovations that are on the Honda. It does do all the things I want it to do and does it well, for a very good price and I think it looks good. That's all I ask for in a van.
a) Toyota - truly the Lexus of Minivans
b) Honda - most fun to drive
c) DCX - true to original, take the kids to school, band practice etc....do everything minivan
Well I'm outta here for weekend, taking Coleman Popup RV camping with gang of friends, into the wilds of Northern Michigan where the closest Starbucks is a whole 30 ">minutes away!!
The biggest flaw is listing depreciation % using todays prices vs resale prices of older vans. That doesn't work because the price today is completely different than the price of prior models. Plus models change, content changes, etc. You MUST know the average selling price of the previous model to compare it to todays resale value.
I also don't know where they got the lease numbers from, but they don't add up. Here are lease quotes from online sources (chryslers website and another that compares lease companies quotes, not sure I can list the name...)
Honda Odyssey EX, negotiated price $27,153 (per edmunds "what others are paying") with zero down and 12k miles per year:
36 months-$403
48 months-$375
Chrysler T&C Touring with side bags, 12k miles per year, price per Chrysler Financial which also includes a Owner Loyalty credit of $2,000 which may or maynot apply to you:
39 months-$451
48 months-$427
If you're going to compare lease prices, that's fine. It just throws a bunch of garbage into the equation that you can monkey with to make it look good one way or the other. Terms, models, downpayment, etc. all have to be identical in order to make any sense. I've tried to do that above the best is possible. However, by comparing leasing rates, if you get the terms/conditions EXACT it all comes down to residual values. And I've quoted the residuals here before and the Ody is far and away better. The only way you can make a T&C cheaper over 3,4,5 years using residuals is if you assume the Ody is going to sell at MSRP and the DC at employee price, minus discounts. Plus add in present value of cash or finance charges. It's still fairly close even at that point.
39 months-$451
48 months-$427
With zero percent interest, I bought cheaper than that 39 month lease.
Oh, I agree entirely but I've been harrassed for quoting what I paid (invoice) because apparently someone somebody knows paid retail so that's what everyone is paying. I paid invoice back in April and at that time a similarly equipped T&C out the door was only $1800 less. That was buying the T&C at invoice plus I think there was $3,000 rebate at the time. At $1800 difference, the T&C will likely cost a lot more because of resale.
48 months-$427
With zero percent interest, I bought cheaper than that 39 month lease.
Well, probably not for 39 months right?
YES indeed. GM just reported $318M loss in the past quarter much of it due to emplyee pricing. The same to occur at Chrysler and Ford as well with their employee pricing. Just do the math!
Just like C & D, Motor Trend, Money, Auto week, Kiplingers, Road & Track, etc.
All of them cannot be wrong!
When are you going to buy a new Ody like Hans??
Actually, GM's losses have more to do with other issues. The employee pricing hasn't changed their actual incentive cost much at all. Folks that don't understand this program think it's something special. GM's incentive costs/vehicle only went up by $136 from May to June. This is because the dealers are taking the brunt of the loss in revenue per vehicle. The flip-side is they can sell more cars. Many GM dealers were doing this before, it was not hard with some negotiating to buy most any GM at invoice which is very close to employee pricing.
The biggest effect the employee pricing has had is PR. Folks think they're getting a great deal (and the folks that can't bargain or weren't willing to bargain are getting a better deal) which has caused a huge upswing in sales. GM's inventory level is actually where it should be now, which is quite impressive. They had 73 days worth of inventory at the beginning of June, now they have 48 days. Might actually be the smartest thing they've done yet.
Ford and DC desperately needs to move inventory as well. They have 80 days supply as of July 1. DC had 73 days.
The biggest flaw is listing depreciation % using todays prices vs resale prices of older vans. That doesn't work because the price today is completely different than the price of prior models. Plus models change, content changes, etc. You MUST know the average selling price of the previous model to compare it to todays resale value.
I was thinking that last night!! How can you take todays price and put it on a 1995 car. There is so much crap being pushed on the site its hard to flush it all. Thanks for your great observation!! SPIN BUSTED!!!
Hans, don't go to the dark side!!!!!
Hans, don't go to the dark side!!!!!
Come on over Hans, you'll really enjoy the view. All them other vans will be in your rearview mirror!!
I'm afraid that won't happen. I am hoping if I buy another minivan, it will be a Ford or G.M. model.
For the feel and handling of the 60's!
It may suit you to a T!
I wasn't prepared for that. Wow, at least the Sienna, Ody, T&C are in the same ballpark. There was an article in Automotive news last week (or week before maybe) that Ford has no intention of competing in the minivan market. They claim they are happy with their market share and have no intention of developing anything special. They claim sport-wagons are the wave of the future and that's where they're spending their development time/$$. So if you love the Freestar...I guess you're in business. I'll bet you could get a good deal on a Mercury version though, they've got a years worth of them sitting around in inventory.
As for spirited handling, if that was a priority to me, I sure wouldn't have bought a minivan.
You might think me an old man that runs down the streets at 25-30 miles an hour holding up traffic, but that's far from being the case. I was a professional driver my whole working life and I'll keep up with any traffic, city or freeway.
Wrong. The GM employee discount helped reduce their bloated inventories, but added little to the bottom line. According to G.M.."The culprits were lower production to compensate for growing inventories early in the year, a less favorable sales mix of cars to higher-margin trucks and SUV's, and rising health-care costs."
Rick Wagoner CEO plans are to close plants and eliminate 25,000 U.S manufacturing jobs by 2008.
That should go a long way in helping the American economy.
Well a minivan or a SUV is all that will hold my family. The SUV is not for me! I don't offroad(would rather hike) or tow(don't own any toys) prefer to rent them or freeload on a friend. I enjoy a car that handle well so the Honda was great for me. If in your situation I may have bought the dodge(if it had VSC) I agree with a large amount of what you say and believe your choice was the best for you as mine was for me. So if anyone is really out there looking for a van. Most of the time I think we just do this for ourselves. Test drive, compare price and feature(People think so many things about what features are important) The new dodge commercials say if you can find a better car buy it!! I think this is great advice that's why I bought the Odyssey(LOL)!!!
Eliminate these prices and inventories will head back up to 100 days levels.
It is so pitiful when Toyota offers to raise their prices to help GM and the other domestics in the financial pains they have found themselves.
I like the vehicles I drive to be great handling and spirited performers. Whether it is a minivan, sedan, or truck. In each category and within each category, if applicable, there are better performers for handling and spirited performance.
I agree. But for me, I knew what I was going to use my minivan for. To me, that is the real important thing. All vans will hold at least seven people. All have air, automatic transmission, power windows,etc. Some look nicer than others. But it's more important how your going to use it. I wouldn't buy a Dodge, or Ford if I carried eight people. They wouldn't hold it. I also wouldn't buy a Honda if I was carrying three or four kids and also using the van to carry building materials, furniture, tent, camping equipment or things like that. It wouldn't fit my needs. So people need to really think on how they're going to use their van. That's more important.
Right on!!! If you buy something you can't use and don't like it WILL COST YOU!!
The source for all autosales
and search for Honda or Chrysler.
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-Hari
Problem is caused by insufficient lubrication of the transmissions.
Can't post source due to Edmund's participant agreement.
ALG residual values for 2005 models after 60 months are:
2005 Honda Odyssey EX 4dr Minivan (3.5L 6cyl 5A)
ALG residual is - 38% with Edmunds TMV of $26,572
ALG Value left is $10097
ALG value lost 26572-10097 = $16474
Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3573
Actual Value lost = 16474+3573 = $20,047
2005 Toyota Sienna XLE 7 Passenger Fwd 4dr Minivan (3.3L 6cyl 5A)
ALG residual is - 37% with Edmunds TMV of $26,989
ALG Value left is $9985
ALG value lost 26989-9985 = $17003
Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3573
Actual Value lost = 17003+3573 = $20,576
2005 Chrysler Town and Country Touring 4dr Ext Minivan (3.8L 6cyl 4A)
ALG residual is 29% with Edmunds TMV of $24,840, with an Autual dealer quote of $23,570
ALG Value left is $6835
ALG value lost 23570-6835 = $16734
Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3004
Actual Value lost = 16734+3004 = $19,738
The above are identical models.
True value lost after 5 years, based on ALG projections for 2005 models
Honda - $20,047
Toyota - $20,576
Chrysler - $19,738
Not sure if Osama has any wives in the caves.
Maybe that's why he has resorted to the Playboy channel there.???
"Honda’s North American recall includes 2003- and 2004-model Accords, 2000- through early 2004-model Acura TL sedans, and 2001- through 2003-model Acura CLs, Boyd said. In April, the company recalled 600,000 U.S. and Canadian Odyssey minivans, and Pilot and Acura MDX sport-utility vehicles with the same transmission."
Now, if I were a retiree in one of those Florida communities, I won't care a rat's hair about that.
Residual value comparo in CarMax ad in today's newspaper in NC as a rough estimate,
'00-'03 Ody starting from $15,998
'00-'02 MPV starting from $11,599
'00-'03 DGC starting from $9,998
'99-04 Sienna starting from $10,599
'01-03 Windstar starting from $9,998
'01-03 Venture starting from $12,599
Using '00 as a reference/trend, we can see how far ahead the Ody's residual is.
The 600,000 recall is virtually all of the 2002-2004 Ody production. This indicates a design problem which appears to be inconceivable by flag waving lovers of the Honda deity. The Chrysler TE-41 used in Chrysler's mini-vans is a good design that has suffered from some component quality issues, but about half failures can be attributed to using Dexron-Mercon ATF instead of the correct MS-7176.
There was some disbelief a little while ago when I posted that the failure rate of the Ody is about the same as the Chrysler mini-vans. Nowadays its actually higher that the same model years of Chrysler versions. Our local television station here in Rochester, New York had an interesting news story about how the Ody transmission design has negatively affected used Ody resale values with a few people that have had as many as three transmission replacements in three years.
Dusty
Wow! Very Interesting!! Indeed!!
I have also used the news media myself to my advantage to blow things up to give public awareness of a personal challenge my family have faced to get satisfactory resolution.
But does all the public face the same challenge I had?
HELL NO!!
But I used the news media as a vehicle/ammunition to achieve my objective.
Besides, used values are often extremely inflated to local market. Around here the Dodge and Chrysler are a little higher and the Windstars are a little lower.
Dusty
I didn't like the way it was stated like it just came out yesterday. Other than that I have no issue with it.
There was some disbelief a little while ago when I posted that the failure rate of the Ody is about the same as the Chrysler mini-vans. Nowadays its actually higher that the same model years of Chrysler versions. Our local television station here in Rochester, New York had an interesting news story about how the Ody transmission design has negatively affected used Ody resale values with a few people that have had as many as three transmission replacements in three years.
So I'm sure you have some proof about the failure rates between the on the dodge and odyssey transmissions. The recall works as follows. The transmission had poor lubrication to second gear, if your car had less than 15,000 miles on it it was modified, if it had more than 15,000 it was inspected any sign of wear it was replaced. The transmission is being covered for 100,000 miles. In the mid 90's my friend had a Intrepid that needed 3 transmissions in the first 2 years(company car). I had one two and it needed one right after 50K miles. Is this a clear indication that the 41TE is bad no maybe it was a fluke, thats what the Dodge people are telling me!! A news story from a local news station don't impress me much!!
Lost value is a mixed bag when it comes to a vehicle. It is similar to buying the same/similar house in two different neighborhoods, one in golf course community and another in a "ghetto" area. One will buy the "ghetto neighborhood house because of value; another will buy the more expensive same house to enjoy the better qualities and higher appreciating house in the golf course community.
Which one you think is more attractive in the long term and appreciate more?
For me, the superior handling and performance of the Ody is priceless and the higher residual cannot be beat for a few extra grand!
Honda - $20,047
Toyota - $20,576
Chrysler - $19,738
Of course in your post yesterday you said Toyota and Chrysler were way better. Now the honda loses less value than the toyota and the Chrysler is about the same 300.00 dollars for 5 years. So which of you truths are true!! BTW throw me in a Dodge SXT with 6 cd changer and sideairbags please LOL. :P
Dusty
The law of supply and demand - "Economics 101"
Capiche?
NB:Lance just won his 7th Tour de France!
So do you buy KIA's and Hyundia's. That new Sonata actually looks like a winner!
As to the 41TE, it depends on the year Intrepid. Yes, they had problems with the shift packs, most notably the solenoid plungers would become magnetized over time. The electrical connectors used back a ways were inadequate for keeping moisture out of the terminations and this caused shift control problems. But the biggest problem was inadequate maintenance, or even worse, using Dexron-Mercon ATF. Still today there are transmission repair places that use Dexron-Mercon in a Chrysler rebuild.
I saw a lot of Chrysler transmissions "rebuilt" back then that didn't need it. In the vast majority of times removing the valve body, installing a new shift pack, and cleaning up the electrical connectors would put a customer back on the road. However, its unfortunate that a good deal of transmission repair establishments could not diagnose the transmission properly because they didn't have DRB, or chose to just sell the customer a rebuild. After all, how does the average person really know whats defective in their transmission? In addition, being the first with electronically controlled transmissions, there was a great deal of animosity in the transmission repair industry against Chrysler because special and expensive diagnostic equipment was required in order to correctly diagnose a problem. So, many were just "rebuilt."
So yes, Chrysler transmissions had some problems and they've long been addressed.
As to the news story, the point is that the word is starting to get out that the Honda Ody is not quite so perfect a vehicle as the congregation believes.
Dusty
IF I were a very aggressive driver like some owners of minivans, I would not buy a GC SXT and would go with the Sienna LE as it seemed to be much more responsive than the 2005 Ody EX. I think the Sienna transmission is THE BEST transmission in a minivan....and frankly, I do have some concern about the reliability of the Odyssey transmission after it has been plaqued with problems for many years. :sick:
Now that I test drove the Sienna and Ody and mac mentioned the "whiny" DC transmissions, I do notice the whine of my T&C transmission more than I had in the past.