Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

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Comments

  • burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    Wife got up this morning and found that someone had broken the rear liftgate glass during the night. I left before daybreak and didn't notice it. Anyway, she called the local police and they confirmed they were already working on several other similiar incidents in the area at the same time. Anyway, she called our insurance company and they said to take it to the local dealer or they would send out a replacement service at our option. She opted to take it to the dealer. The glass lists for $1891.98 believe it or not. With installation and tax the total is $2139.58.
    I checked the online price for the glass and it wasn't much less, around $1600.
    My advice to all is to protect that rear glass from any harm.
  • brunopuntzjonebrunopuntzjone Member Posts: 22
    Yow that bites!

    I had a guy hit my 94 Camaro and the cost to replace the windshield at the time was a similar price. Had a 95 Camaro that had the windshield busted out by a falling limb, cost just over $400 to replace. A few years later and 1/5 the cost. Yow.
  • aldan93aldan93 Member Posts: 202
    Don't laugh, I had a buddy at work with a 2003 exploder, 2 lines were out on his defroster they could not fix it, They replaced the whole assembly DOOR!!! $2800 bucks!

    The glass in our TB's is attached to that stupid painted plastic part of the roof so I would guess the whole assembly would also have to be replaced? with matching paint?
  • discofeverdiscofever Member Posts: 34
    McGard Wheel Locks (M12x1.5) Part Number 24012
    This is for behind the hub-cap style lock. Local tire shop should carry. retails for $18.00 to $20.00 per set.
  • cwhawkcwhawk Member Posts: 38
    I have a 2002 TB LTZ.

    Two weeks ago,I took it to the dealer to address a shifting problem from 1 to 2 and a surge at highway speeds. The service manager stated the vehicle needed several updates on the PCM. The vehicle had been in four earlier times for poor gas mileage, engine power loss, etc., and each time they loaded new PCM codes.

    This time, it worked. The power is better, the gas mileage is slightly better; however, the display for average mpg has gone crazy. Originally, the difference between the display avg. mpg and actual mpg was about .5 mpg. Now it is off by 1.6 mpg. It made me think the mileage had really improved until I used my calculator to verify.

    Has anyone else had new PCM codes loaded that did this? It is a step backwards. GM's new codes appear to overstate mpg to make the owner more satisfied. What a lousy way to handle legitimate complaints about poor gas mileage. Let me know if you have this problem and if you had it corrected.
  • aldan93aldan93 Member Posts: 202
    I average 19-20 MPG daily, 87 Octane, K&N filter, 35 pounds in the tires, several coats of wax.

    I have noticed that if you drive 60-65 on interstate versus, 70-75, you'll get better Fuel economy, along with not hammering on the gas at green lights. So I usually get 350 Miles out of a tank, takes 18 gallons to fill up.

    re DIC errors, how many miles are on your car, what are your driving habits? %city etc...
  • 01_hoe01_hoe Member Posts: 273
    The plastic painted (or black) piece is attached to the rear glass with double sided tape. It can be removed for repair, repaint, or replacement.
  • elevatorguyelevatorguy Member Posts: 87
    What rear end do you have? Do you have a 4WD?

    Elevatorguy
  • mcali17mcali17 Member Posts: 22
    Dad just got back from the GM dealer meeting in Las Vegas. How would you like an Envoy XL Denali?? It is in the works. Cross-over vehicle is also "coming soon."
  • cparise1cparise1 Member Posts: 109
    Regarding Honda Pilot towing discussions: I've never seen a Pilot with a trailer hitch.

    Regarding mileage: I drive mostly on the freeway and can't manage any better than 17.5-18.5 mpg. Even though I've got 26K on my '02 Envoy XL SLT it hasn't been on a trip yet to confirm higher mileage is possible but 19-20 mpg constant highway driving seems achievable. My DIC is never right, being 5-7% optimistic, but its a good indicator of expected mileage.

    Happy Motoring,
    Chris
  • twinrottstwinrotts Member Posts: 161
    At the last reflash of my PCM I too thought I experienced a huge increase (2mpg) in fuel economy. I am never able to confirm it with a calculator so my customer delight quickly fizzled. It would be nice to get better milage, but if that was a real concern, I would not have purchased an SUV and then first made it an EXT with every weight adding gadget avilable from the the General and aftermarket crowd as well.
    If anyone does find a fix for this, I would be interested in hearing about it.
    I'd rather the DIC be accurate irregardless of what the ugly truth might be.
  • twinrottstwinrotts Member Posts: 161
    I am infatuated with my TB again as if I just picked it up from the dealer.
    Took a trip this weekend from Rochester NY to NW Pennsylvania with about 1700 lbs in tow.
    It pulls the trailer literally like it is not there on the open roads. Still able to pass with no need for extraordinary distances, even driving the rolling hills of the Allegany Mnts.
    The most satisfying experience however came when driving the unpaved "Forest Roads" of the National Forest. The truck is smooth as glass on dirt and gravel roads even pulling the trailer.
    Never had the sense of less then complete sure footedness even on steep declines with curves.
    Brakes never fade and engine never struggles.
    My only disappointment is all the dust that settled in the door jambs. I'll take credit for that however.
    BTW: Does this count as off road use???
  • tmac8tmac8 Member Posts: 32
    Thursday I took my 2002 Envoy in to have the rubber trim piece that goes around the raised boss around the license plate put on, and to have the rear hatch seal replaced. I decided as long as I'm at it, have the 15k service done to it as well. It ran me $90.00, which is close to the only bright side to this post. When I picked it up, I inspected the trim piece and it looked great. Open up the hatch, and part of the seal came with it. They didn't tuck the lip of the hatch seal in, so I did it myself right there. I also waited until I got home to clean up the excess glue used to hold it in place. So I decide to leave without saying anything because I never expected them to do a good job anyway, but when I pulled the strap to close the hatch, it pulled right off. Believe it or not I laughed. Takes a torx wrench to put on, didn't have one, so I went back inside to have it put on properly. Now I'm driving home and when I reach 55 mph speed zone, I notice they didn't latch the hood completely. Now I'm getting pissed. Got home, parked in my brand spanking new 30 x 40 foot garage, cleaned all of the greasy hand prints off the door, hatch, etc., and went inside. Next morning I back out only to find an oil spot the size of a softball on my 2 week old cement floor. Now flames are coming out of my ears ! Went to work Friday and my office assistant,(who's husband is the truck service manager at this dealership), asked me how it went. I told her the story and went out to the shop. Ten minutes later she comes out to the shop with the phone, and says it's the service manager on the line. She called her husband who in turn told the service manager. He apologized up and down, and said my next oil change was free. I told him I didn't want the free oil change, rather I have competent people working on my vehicle. Anyway, my apologies for the long post, and I sure hope the rest of you have better luck with your dealers. I myself am looking for another one.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    BTW: Does this count as off road use???

    No, but it sure sounds like you enjoyed your ride immensely!

    tidester, host
  • twinrottstwinrotts Member Posts: 161
    Anyone install one of these new air charger units
    I'm curious to know if there is a tangible performance improvement.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    You might want to browse around in K&N Air Filters, bolt-on power?.

    tidester, host
  • leopardmechleopardmech Member Posts: 10
    I have a 2003 EXT 4x4 and my vehicle is missing the straps for the comfort guides as anyone else noticed this. These are the little straps that pull the shoulder belt down for the comfort of smaller passengers.
    Later
    Vince
  • bradrx7bradrx7 Member Posts: 29
    I noticed that, too. My old 202 LTZ had those, but my new 2003 EXT LT does not. My guess is the belt geometry is different for the EXT 2nd row compared to the back seat in the short WB version. Key word "guess."
  • aldan93aldan93 Member Posts: 202
    You mileage seems low, Are you using a blended gas with ethanol? Use Mobil, my mileage went up to 19-20<---- from a suggestor on board!

    What is your tire pressure?

    If you do mostly highway, you should be getting 20-22 MPG easily, do you have a 4.10 rear-end?

    2003 TB 3.42 4X4, LS
  • seifordseiford Member Posts: 68
    There's a TSB regarding the missing comfort guides:

    "TSB 02-09-40-005A
    Subject:Availability of Rear Seat Shoulder Belt Comfort Guides

    Models:
    2003 Buick Century, Regal
    2003 Pontiac Grand Prix
    2003 Cadillac Escalade, Escalade EXT
    2003 Chevrolet Avalanche, Silverado Extended Cab, Suburban,
    Tahoe, TrailBlazer EXT
    2003 GMC Envoy XL, Sierra Extended Cab, Yukon, Yukon XL

    Some early 2003 production vehicles were manufactured without rear seat shoulder belt comfort guides. This comfort guide is a plastic guide attached to a short elastic tether that positions the shoulder belt away from the neck of short occupants, whether children or adults. A rear seat shoulder belt comfort guide may help improve the comfort of the shoulder portion of the safety belt for occupants sitting in the rear outboard seating positions.

    While these vehicles comply with all Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, some customers may request to have these comfort guides installed on their vehicle. Comfort guides are currently available from GMSPO

    Upon customer request, dealers are authorized to install these rear seat shoulder belt comfort guides at no cost to the customers."
  • leopardmechleopardmech Member Posts: 10
    Thanks I will check this out at my next oil change.
  • tblazedtblazed Member Posts: 945
    What I need is a "comfort guide" for the FRONT seat belt. I hate the way the belt goes across my collar bone and constantly pulls back from the spring tension. I checked a couple of others and they were all the same. Very uncomfortable to me. I did get a "comfort clip" to put on the belt to relieve the tension but would rather keep the belt function stock, just needs less spring tension or repositioning. This was my #1 first complaint within the first 20 miles I drove the TB. I complained to GM and Chevrolet about this. A lot of good that did.
  • ross1962ross1962 Member Posts: 229
    "I have noticed that if you drive 60-65 on interstate versus, 70-75, you'll get better Fuel economy"
    Just please move over when you see me coming up from behind you in the fast lane!
  • malibu99malibu99 Member Posts: 305
    I dont know if this has been discussed before but here it goes. This weekend I was washing my truck and when I was washing the front drivers side wheel well I noticed that battery acid had been dripping on to these two lines that are attached to the chassis. I cleaned the acid off and the goldish colored line is now silver colored where the acid was. Are these the brake lines? Is this a potential problem for brake failure if the acid eats through the lines? Has this been addressed? Your input is much appreciated.
  • gator36gator36 Member Posts: 294
    I cannot speak for the lines, as we traded our TB in for a Tahoe, (new rugrat in the family) nedded more room. But you need to check the Positive post of your battery. The Delco battery's are known for having the + post pulling out of the battery. If this happens, you cannot jumpstart the vehicle. If there is acid leaking from this post. Have the battery replaced. Better now than at the store or on a trip.
       This has been an issue across all model lines using the side post delco batteries.
  • lurker01lurker01 Member Posts: 103
    I had the EXACT same experience. At first I thought they had made some great adjustment that improved mileage, but no, they just screwed up the firmware... I complained to my friend who writes the transmission firmware at Powertrain but he said it was the other department who did that code. Passing the buck...
    Oh well, maybe it will make the resale value higher if the buyer does not know about the error.
    Mine seems to be off by 1.5-2 mpg where it used to be off by .5
    With mixed hwy and city, I get about 17 avg. Sometimes better but never over 19 even with all freeway at ~75mph.

    I use the cheapest gas I can since they all come out of the same pipeline anyway and I don't care to pay for the other station's advertizing budget. If we all voted with our pocketbooks and bought the cheapest gas around, maybe the rip-off stations would have to lower their prices. Around here there is a 15% difference in price. That saves me $200 a year!
  • allenrallenr Member Posts: 89
    I would say that&#146;s real bad, looks like your battery is leaking acid. Same thing happen to my battery, one of the posts cracked and let acid leak all over the battery tray and anything else under it.
    Get it to the dealer right away as this problem will leave you stranded on the side of the road when the battery post break off!!
    The dealer did a very poor job of cleaning the acid off. Spent an hour with baking soda and water cleaning up the mess. To answer you question the surface of my line are now corroded. I keep an eye on them for any problems, none so far. I does look like crap thought :(

    Allen
  • bradrx7bradrx7 Member Posts: 29
    Tblazed,
    Noticed the same thing on my 2 TBs. I got this from amazon (http://tinyurl.com/nfxf) and it cures the problem, stays on the belt which operates normally and almost matches my dark pewter interior.
  • ficussficuss Member Posts: 541
    There are two ways to make the computer displayed mpg higher, either use higher miles driven or less gas used to calculate the mpg. If they are using higher mileage, it is not only deceitful, it is illegal. It will also prematurely age your vehicle( miles driven), shorten the warranty period and reduce the value of the car. I still don't know if they actually meter the gas used or just estimate it by guessing how much is left in the tank. I think an answer from a GM rep. would be appreciated. In the mean time, I would find mile markers that are accurate and compare them to indicated odometer readings. An increase of 1 to 2 mpg is significant. At 20 mpg it represents a 5 to 10 % increase. You should be able to tell if the odometer is off by that much. The other possibility is that the gas station is giving you 5 to 10% extra gas for free. THAT I doubt.

    Frank
  • lurker01lurker01 Member Posts: 103
    Well, the trip is still right for my daily commute when I test it and it also agrees with the one on the Audi, so I think they did not mess with that.
    My guess is they changed the algorithm they use to estimate gas usage. My bet is this is based on several sensors that are each weighted differently to get a fuel consumption rate. Depending on how this is done and averaging methods used, it can swing by quite a bit.

    As for the gap, I did 5 tanks full to empty and using the trip number, hand calc'ed the MPG for each tank. I then compared it to the DIC AVG reading. It averaged out to a 1.73 MPG error. I did the same thing for the first 6 months of ownership and it was 0.5 off then. So, they definitely changed something.
  • jr45jr45 Member Posts: 45
    My '03 Bravada has about 9k mis, and since shortly after purchase, I have been getting bumping, shuddering and jerking that I feel in the drivetrain during acceleration. The problem has recently gotten substantially worse, such that I feel now fee the bumping and jerking nearly every time I accelerate. I took it in to my dealer again today for the problem (the 3rd time), and the shop manager drove it. He told me that he definitey felt the jerking. The shop manager called me later and said they called GM Technical Assistance and were told that GM is aware of the problem and are "working on a correction" and will issue a service bulletin after they solve it.

    I called Oldsmobile and a rep called the dealership and confirmed what I was told. Basically, they can't fix it and can give me no timeframe as to when a bulletin might be issued.

    I'm pretty upset at the attitude of GM in this matter, which is "we agree you're vehicle has a serious problem that we can't fix, but you just have to put up with it until we figure out how to fix it." Whenever that is.

    I did some checking today and could probably successfully sue for buy-back under my state's (VA) lemon law. The remedies are good, requiring total refund except for a small mileage deduction. However, I really like the truck otherwise, and it seems a shame that GM can't (or won't) find and fix the problem with the drivetrain.

    The issue is not slight, and it is not something any reasonable person would put up with. The bumping and jerking feels like there is something mechanically wrong, as it the transmission or rear end were damaged.

    Oldsmobile and my dealer made it clear to me that there is nothing further to discuss -- pretty much, either live with it or get a lawyer.

    I guess I can either wait around for a fix, put up with it, or pursue my rights under the lemon law.
  • pepper50pepper50 Member Posts: 195
    How long are these batteries from GM supposed to last? i.e., how long are they rated in months? I don't like to drive one until the end :)
  • cwhawkcwhawk Member Posts: 38
    My combined mileage is 15.1 mpg and the DIC shows 16.7 or 16.6.

    My highway mileage (all at 70 mph) is 19.7 and the DIC shows 21.3.

    My 2002 TB LTZ has the 3.42 rear axle and just turned 20,000 miles.

    By the way, I used Pennzoil 5w30 for 10,000 miles and then switched to Mobile 1. I check actual gas mileage between the two and there is less than .1 mpg difference in combined and/or highway mpg between the two. So much for claims.

    I take the TB back to the dealer tomorrow to work on the 1-2 shifting and the DIC errors. Anyone want to give odds on if either will be corrected?
  • twinrottstwinrotts Member Posts: 161
    I have done an informal comparison of milage markers and the odom plus the timer.
    With this crude method I did a mile at 60 in about 61 seconds so it seemed pretty good.
    It definately does not over inflate miles driven or else the calculator would verify the performance as well
  • seifordseiford Member Posts: 68
    jr45: We're in the same boat as you - really disappointed with GM's lack of responsibility. GM won't fix the transmission problem on our '03 Envoy. (A local transmission shop owner told us we should wedge the Envoy up against a tree and floor it until the transmission breaks. Then GM will fix it.)

    We've had ours into the dealer 8 times, escalated all the way up the local management chain. TAC keeps telling dealer not to do anything. GM Customer Service upped our tranny warranty and considered the case closed. BBB arbitration (waste of time) agreed we had a problem that GM should fix, but they only do resolutions of "buy back" or "no buy back". Our problem isn't serious enough (in their opinion) for a buy back.

    We may try another dealer, a lawyer, or a tree.
  • kpp14kpp14 Member Posts: 62
    Hey Seiford. I hope no environmentalist reads your post. "raging suv driver wants to push over large tree"!! Try pulling stumps instead....Don't worry it will screw up all by itself.
    jr45 I had a similar problem. Eventually the truck would shift from fourth to second. Where is that red line anyway? Thats when they fixed it. Good thing I had 7,000 km left on the warranty. I'm not as mechanically inclined as some of you but The techy said the inside of the trany was scored heavily and that he added some extra bands to the new one? I now have a warranty for the new transmission. Excellent timing! How is it that your dealers jerk you around so much? I know where there is a good dealer but your trany might not make it here.
  • baredoggbaredogg Member Posts: 32
    I believe there was a recall on these vehicles re the leaking battery acid contact your dealer asap for a fix. No brakes is a bad scene at any time.
  • malibu99malibu99 Member Posts: 305
    Thats what happened to me :( My brake lines look like crap and it ate the paint off of the chasis leaving the bare steel exposed to rust :(. The terminals look ok, I dont see where this thing is leaking from...I am out of warranty, figures :( Well I'll just buy a new battery, cheaper than having the dealership look at it. Thanks for the reply.
  • tblazedtblazed Member Posts: 945
    allenr, I would ask the dealer to replace the damaged, corroded brake lines. That's a possible safety hazard. Once corrosion starts it's like cancer on metal. You could slow it down or maybe stop it by treating the corroded surface with Metal Prep to neutralize the rust and corrosion, and then painting over that area with clear polyurethane.

     bradrx7, Thanks for the suggestion- I will get one. That should take care the edge of the belt rubbing against my neck anyway.

     pepper50, a decent battery should last 4 years or so. After that you are on borrowed time. That is, unless you have a leaker.

    In the past, before I got the TB, I have had two ACD side terminal batt's leak at the + terminal. They were both still functioning fine. Looking at the Trailblazer if the battery leaks, the acid will go straight down onto the power steering cooler metal lines! BAD design! There should be a plastic shield there to keep any battery acid leaks off and divert the leak to the ground.
  • allenrallenr Member Posts: 89
    I did neutralize all the acid when I got the truck back with the new battery. Next time I have the Bravada in for service I will point out the corroded lines and see if they will replace them under warranty.

    Allen
  • corttcortt Member Posts: 7
    I bought my 2003 LTZ in May, had no problems till this. Love everything with this SUV otherwise!
    I had the unfortunate experience of having the A/C blow hot air on a short 200 mile trip 2 months
    later. I had it repaired - they knew exactly what it was (the cycling switch) 4 days
    before leaving on a 2 week trip to Key West for a 3000 mile round trip. It worked perfectly for the whole trip in 95-100 degree humid weather.
    I am hoping that GM replaced the original cycling
    switches with a revamped version so this is not a reoccuring problem over the years.
  • corttcortt Member Posts: 7
    I got the aftermarket BugDeflector II which also makes the tinted window vents that stick on the outside of the window- as opposed to in the track. This was a simple install, using snap in bolt holders that match the Trailblazer underhood. I then disregarded the instructions to stick the little clear silicone bumpers to the hood of the vehicle and instead stuck them to the inside of the Bug Shield. They are still there after about 3500 miles and expect they'll stay. I went with the stick on window vents after hearing one user complain about the in-track vents causing window closing problems. I used these same type of stick ons with my Jimmy that I had 7 years and had no problems. Will never have a vehicle without the window vents due to the convenience of venting during rain and especially during hot summers.
  • discofeverdiscofever Member Posts: 34
    Many years ago, I had a European car that was brand new and the transmission died on the Highway at only 4,000 miles. The dealer replaced the transmission. Shortly after the installation, I noticed that the reservoir of my Cooling system looked like a pink milkshake. I went back to the dealer they said that the transcooler was defective and leaked into the transmission and the transmission fluid mixed into the cooling system. Well they cleaned out both the tranny and the cooling system. The car never road the same again, the tranny always hesitated and then jumped into gear. After various trips to the dealer and the same story it's within specification. The Mechanic took me to the side and told me. Drain the fluid from the tranny, drive it until it stops... and when it does fill it right back up with fluid, and have it towed in. It worked! I got my new tranny and it rode smooth.... I am not saying this is what you should do, but it worked.
  • tblazedtblazed Member Posts: 945
    You say you "did neutralize all the acid when I got the truck back with the new battery." Did you just clean it up with baking soda and water? What I suggest is actually treating any corroded or rusted lines or any other areas with a metal prep solution like "Metal Treat" you can get at a good hardware store, it kills the rust and makes a paintable surface. then you could brush some clear coat or polyurethane to seal it from the air and moisture and touch up the place where the paint came off. Otherwise it will continue to rust. Of course best thing would be get the dealer to fix it right since it was the in-warranty battery that messed things up.
  • scottc454scottc454 Member Posts: 356
    I wouldn't get the brake line replaced unless the line was seriously pitted. Those metal treatment products work really well.

    My reasoning is:
    A) Replacing a brake line can be a major pain. I wouldn't make somebody do that unless the brake line damage was more than just surface damage.
    B) There's always a chance of them screwing something else up while changing the brake line.

    I haven't looked at the line, so maybe it's not such a big deal.
  • jr45jr45 Member Posts: 45
    I'm thinking about what to do. I reviewed the lemon law again and I think I have a good case. I have service invoices documenting the trouble.
    Also, a factor under our lemon law is whether the defect impairs the value of the vehicle. Clearly, the resale value of my truck is impaired. Who wants to buy a vehicle that feels like it has a serious mechanical problem in the transmission or rearend?

    I wouldn't consider doing BBB arbitration. There is no reason for me to go to the trouble and expense of arbitration. Our lemon law does not require the consumer to arbitrate before pursuing a claim in court, and the remedies are much, much better than can be expected in arbitration.

    To me it comes down to an ecomonic decision. I have to decide whether to keep a vehicle with an unrepairable defect or force GM to buy it ack. Makes me wonder whether GM will put up that much of fight given the documentation I have and their admission that the problem exists and that they can't repair it. Given that the law in my state suggests I can get almost all my money back, it's hard to decide to tough it out and keep the vehicle.

    GM' attitude doesn't help either. It's disappointing how unconcerned they are at my problems. When I told the customer service rep at Olds that GM was leaving me no choice but to get an attorney, I could almost hear the shrug on the other end of the phone.
  • cparise1cparise1 Member Posts: 109
    I always calculate my mpg at re fueling using miles traveled / gas used. I am not complaining about the gas mileage, but its always between 17.5 and 18.5 mpg. Mostly highway, but some city thrown in there too. Probably enough city driving thrown in there to keep me below 19 or so, plus I drive an XL. I use Mobil gas almost always--gotta love that Speedpass. I drive pretty conservatively.
    '02 Envoy XL SLT with 3.42 axle ratio.
    Chris
  • aldan93aldan93 Member Posts: 202
    Hey I had an Exploder 97, never even seen 19MPG straight highway, AVG. around 13.5 15 MPG, same trip!!! To Get 350 miles out of tank is way better gassing up after 250-270 Miles.

    plus the TB has more Horses, and Torque, gotta luv GM for that!!!
  • tblazedtblazed Member Posts: 945
    scottc454 yep I would prefer to not have them mess with the brakes and replace any parts unless absolutely necessary. First thing I would do would be the metal treatment and paint to stop any corrosion. Figured I had best throw in the "get the the dealer fix it" part to appease the folks that would insist that the service dep't should do everything.
  • tblazedtblazed Member Posts: 945
    Has anyone come up with an alterntive to the lousy factory front license plate holder? I almost can't believe the poor excuse for a license plate holder these come with. Like an afterthought someone remembered, after the front fascia was designed. They have started enforcing the law here in TX about front license plates. ( Also license plate frames lenses or covers that obscure any part of the text on the plate) Has been an unenforced law for years, I haven't had a front plate on a vehicle since '85, never had a problem with law enforcement, probably 1 of 5 cars on the road don't have a front plate. $200 is the fine! They are doing this so the red light running cameras one or two cities have set up, can get a good picture of the scofflaw at the wheel with the license plate shown. Also they want a good unobstructed shot at the rear plate to catch the toll booth runners. Then they can just mail you a ticket! Anyway, I bought my TB in OK (not required there) and it has never had a bracket or plate on the front. I am looking for an alternative to the front plastic holder. Would like to mount the plate off to the side, down low, so if I do happen to bump into something the plate and holder won't cause more damage to the front fascia. Suggestions??
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