Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

cmack4

Good to hear it's not going to be abandoned. My dealer hinted at it last month when I bought mine. As expressed here, I wouldn't worry too much about the air suspension. A few users have had isolated problems, but with the extended warranty deal, any problems would be corrected at no cost. $10,000 seems very escalated, even with the "Infiniti" label. It shouldn't even be half of that unless other damage was suffered when it failed.

fletch45

Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for an argument with you. I am basing my conclusions regarding the operation of the Autotrac in my TB on two years driving experience in a 2000 Silverado, which also had the Autotrac 4wd system. As I mentioned before, the Autotrac system worked so smoothly in the Silverado, that you could hardly tell that it was not in 4wd lock (ie, you really had to nail it to make it spin the tires). This is NOT the case at all with the TB's Autotrac. If 4wd needs to be LOCKED when it is slick, then they just as well install the same in-out 4wd systems that they used 30 years ago.

BTW: all three sisters use the same locker...the Eaton Gov-Lock, if I remember right.
jim f

2002slt

My '98 Bravada was the first model with the part-time AWD. I bought the Bravada based on the assumption it would handle as good in the snow as the '93 I had. The '93 was a true AWD system, 65% rear, 35% front, all the time. It handled beautifully in the snow. The '98 was completely different. Straight-line acceleration from a stop was fine, but driving on snow covered roads was frightening at times. When the SmartTrack kicked in, I could feel a noticeable jerk to the left, or right. It depended on the slope of the road. It finally snowed here in Chicago, so I got to try out 4Hi in my Envoy. It drove like I remember my '93 Bravada did. I never felt the slightest bit of slippage. I was in total control. I'm not sure if SmartTrack has had any changes made to it since '98. My manual also stated it had a 1/4 second delay, just like the '02. There is one more point I'd like to mention. For some reason, Oldsmobile decided to put car tires on the '98. This may have had something to do with my problems. I would be curious to know what people with the '02 Bravada have to say about how well theirs handle in the snow.

gam2

Just picked up a new Bravada (for $3000 under invoice w/incentives). Curious about owners of air suspension: How often does the sytem cycle on?
Mine goes on after I turn the vehicle on and will then go on every 10 minutes or so (or so it seems). Is this normal or is there an air leak?
It does not seem to sag in the morning, but still adds air every time I start it.

GAM

vindog45

Picked up my new tb ltz last week.........Majestic Red w/ Saddle two tone, interior is two-tone tan color .....BEAUTIFUL!...talk about heads turning....build date was 02/02.....no problems at all knock on wood (although i cant find any)...has anyone put aftermarket woodgrain on their tb dash? Also would love to hear if anyone has installed polished chrome billet grille for front.......i think it will offset the dark bugshield and look good.........hope so...im ordering one.........anyways love this vehicle!

couimet

I assume you meant to say $3000 under MSRP ...

cmack4

I think you're right about the Eaton Gov-Lock, but isn't it manual on the Envoy and TB when equipped? I don't see a manual locker as bad thing, just so you don't try and use it at higher speeds. In fact, to those who have auto locker's, you can fool them to turn on by clicking the parking brake up a notch or two. This shouldn't be done for any extended period of time, but may help you out of a slippery situation if it doesn't turn on automatically! Like I said earlier, I don't dislike the Autotrac, but I have noticed some of the same characteristics as you. I would be interested to know how GM was able to make the Silverado more responsive.

cmack4

I know there have been some changes since DC took over New Venture Gear and Borg Warner is now producing the Smarttrak. I don't know exactly what the changes were, but I can tell you that my setup suffers from none of the problems you mentioned. In handles perfectly in snow and sand. No jerking or delays noticeable.
In fact, you can feel the AWD kick in on a dry surface before you even squeal the tires, if you floor the gas! Personally, I would like to see them go back to a proactive system though even if it only was say 15/85 torque split, just to get that extra grip going into corners.

fletch45

The driver has no control of the locker in my TB...I assume the Envoy is the same way. I suppose it could be useful to be able to lock it manually, but might just be something else to go wrong.
jim f

2002slt

couimet,
It's very possible gam2 meant "under invoice". I got mine for slightly more than $3,000 under. GM Supplier discount = $400 under + $2002 Rebate + $1,000 Olds Loyality. That's $3,402 under. Oh, I failed to mention the $300 advertising fee.
Still, $3,102 under.

cmack4

I agree. Not enough people know how to properly use it, and it will put a lot of stress on the drivetrain if left on at higher speeds. Good move on GM's part!

quickdtoo

The differential works automatically if a rear wheel looses traction, and only at speeds under 20 mph, above that speed it acts like any open diffential. When it detects ~2 axle rotations of a slipping rear wheel, it locks both rear axles(wheels) so they rotate at the same speed. Driver input has NO affect on the locking mechanizm. HTH, Tim

cmack4

My point was just that you could fool the locking rear into engaging by pulling the ebrake up a notch or two, since it only engages one wheel... obviously the other wheel will be spinning at a different rpm! The only time you'd really want to is as a last ditch effort if you're stuck, since it should behave quite well automatically anyway.

cmack4

gam2 - The air suspension should do the auto leveling every time you start the vehicle, but every 10 mins. seems a little excessive. Normally in rides of 15 mins or less, mine doesn't adjust at all, although it has on occasion. On a 4 hour trip to upstate New York, I think it adjusted maybe 2 or 3 times. Might want to have the dealer check it out just to be sure.

On a side note, what's the going rate to change oil on these beasts with the 7 quart oil capacity? I'm gonna need an oil change soon... Does it pay to do it yourself? If so, anyone know all the lube points? Also, anyone using synthetic... I'm thinking about switching over around the second change.

quickdtoo

You're right on for a normal limited slip, but using the ebrake with the eaton will delay the lockup due to the nature of the locking mechanizm. It requires at least 2 revolutions of slip to lock up. The ebrake trick has been used for years on limited slip differentials like the ineffective Trac-lok to increase the power to the wheel with traction. Maybe the link below will help explain the diff(hehehheh!) Tim
http://www.eatonposi.com/product.htm#what1

hardhawk

I'm not so sure Motor Trend has it right about Cadillac picking up the Bravada. Cadillac WILL get a mid size SUV, but it will be different from the triplets. Buick, on the other hand, will get the Bravada with a Rezendavous front end. How do I know? I have participated in two Harris Polls on line that had color pictures of the Buick Bravada. It looked production ready. The polls were asking what to name the new vehicle. I tried to figure out a way to get the pics on this board, but the special software you had to download to participate in the polls protects the pictures. As a long time Motor Trend subscriber, I can say that they do not always get it right on their stories.

ficuss

to Hardhawk: Try taking a picture of the comp. screen. Then you can send it like any other picture. Just make sure nothing else is showing, screen name, account number etc.

ficuss

My dealer has told me they have no fix for the mirror problem. A previous post advising that the mirror auto position feature can be turned off by turning off the auto seat positioner was correct.
Two things to remember in the future: If the rain sense wipers are left on when the car is turned off, they will start wiping the next time the truck is started and they sense water or ice, not a good thing in Chicago when there is ice or snow on the windshield. The wiper motor does not like it. Also, the auto mirror positioner does the same thing, if the mirrors are iced up and you use the remote to open the doors, the mirror motors and gears grind. G M software engineers should move their desks outdoors for a while. If the DIC can tell us there is a possibility of ice, it should not attempt to wipe the windshield or position the mirrors.

scottc454

Am I reading this wrong or did somebody say that the emergency brake only engages one wheel?
It's an emergeny brake not a suicide brake!

pepper50

I have cloth seats, so I've been thinking about spraying my new Envoy with a fabric protectant like Scotchguard, 303, etc. Have any of you done this, or have a product you recommend?
Thanks.

baltychen

I am not against Day time Running Lights and Automatic Headlamp System but if the manual says (Page 2-46) I can turn them off then I should turn them off. Now, I have another problem. Can anyone here help? I cannot re-set my CHANGE ENGINE OIL Light per manual page 6-15. I have my oil change today at 2,000 miles and according to the manual all I need is to turn the key to RUN and fully press and release the accelerator pedal three times within five seconds and then the CHANGE ENGINE OIL light will flashes for five seconds. This means the system is reset. BUT I GOT NOTHING. No flashes no matter how many times I have repeated.

tidester

Minor point - but it's not even an emergency brake - it's a parking brake!

tidester
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SUVs

johntr

When I get my oil changed (~5000 miles, indicator shows ~50%) I have never used the instructions in the manual to reset the indicator, so I can't help there. However, if you have the controls on the steering wheel, you can use a method much easier. Hold down the return (arrow key, I don't know what the manual calls it) for what seems like 3 seconds and the indicator will reset. I use this button to reset the trip od., timer and avg. mpg indicators as well.

The manual recommends to change 12,000 or 12 months (driving conditions may vary), does anyone have any comments on this. I can't seem to get this habit. I just keep mine around 5000 so that my lube shop can rotate the tires as well. I don't want to go to just get tire rotations.

On the question re: "#4149 of 4150 My New TB" - my lube shop told me there's no lube points under to service.

mooneyjp

Back again. I have a 2002 Envoy SLE. We have not had much luck on mileage (11 is the best we seem to get) I have checked just about everything: The AWD and 2wd, air cleaner etc. Anything that would cause excessive use of gas. Yesterday, we were driving, and the outside temperature was climbing. My son opened the back window for air. There is an almost deafining vibration sound, for lack of a better defination. Anybody out there had or have this problem?

cmack4

quickdtoo - thanks for the link... good reading material for sure!

scottc454 - sorry if I confused you... actually 2 wheels are engaged, the front right and rear left. I meant only one on the rear axle. I haven't verified this (anyone?), since it is possible that with 4 wheel disc brakes all 4 wheels are engaged, but I know older GM's used the one wheel on each axle parking brake. On drum brake rears, typically the parking brake will use one cable with a yoke that engages both rear drums and nothing in the front.

johntr

I have experienced this as well & have read several posts in other newsgroups. This happens in the TB & other non-Chevy vehicles. It just depends on the desing, of which, I don't have any specifics. In short, never open the back windows without opening the front first. The effect has to do with the air flow of the vehicle, air is trying to enter and escape from the same openings. Just crack the front windows before rolling down the back!

marsha7

point...cars do not have emergency brakes, they are parking brakes, able to hold the vehicle still once it is parked...that is not to say they may not be used in an emergency, but they are actually designed for parking, and God help anyone who needs them in an emergency...but better a cable brake than no brake...

cmack4

hardhawk - Open the survey and make sure it's the active window, do a alt + print screen and it will only copy that window to the clipboard. Open up an image editing program (heck even Paint will work in a pinch) and paste the full window in. Now crop and save or with Paint select and cut, paste to new window and save.

johntr - No servicable lube points? HUH? The Triplets have U-Joints for the 4WD/AWD system, which definitely are lube points... as well as the U-Joints on the axles! I'm guessing you should also lube the steering arms and upper and lower ball joints as well. Maybe the shop misunderstood you? I just want to make sure that if I do it myself, I don't miss any! A lot of people do their own oil changes but neglect to do the lube service. What's the point of having an auto with a well taken care of engine if its drivetrain is totally worn?

cmack4

It kills me... Tidester and Marsha7, you're actually going to ping someone for calling a Parking Brake an Emergency Brake? They are the same friggin thing! Same design, same function... I guarantee that anyone here who has ever owned an older vehicle with an "E-brake", especially with a manual transmission, has used it when they parked their vehicle! The name only changed because it was un-PC to suggest that a brake system may fail!

d2000one1

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=05299300

tidester

t kills me... Tidester and Marsha7, you're actually going to ping someone for calling a Parking Brake an Emergency Brake?

Nobody is pinging anybody. We were emphasizing the point made by Scott.

tidester
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SUVs

flopes

Thanks to all for all the great information. This board is an invaluable tool. I hope I can get some advise from those out here with experience. Here's my question:

I'm getting ready to order a new Envoy SLT. I'm considering going with the 1sh package that includes the load leveling air suspension. With all the stories I've been reading here about failures of the system, and since I don't plan on doing much towing would it be wise of me to stick with the conventional rear suspension?

Thanks for your time,
Frank

cmack4

Frank, I wouldn't base my decision on a couple of complaints about the air suspension... Especially since most only concern how often it adjusts! It is significantly smoother for on-road driving, go out and test drive both! If you plan on doing serious off-roading though, the standard suspension will probably fare better in durability and extension.
Craig

flopes

Thanks Craig. You're absolutley right, but the local dealership has a 2002 on their repair lot that looks like a "low rider". I like the feature set with the 1SH package but want to check out any possible problems with feature I may not want/need.
I'll take your suggestion and drive both. I've only test driven the air suspension. What I need to do is drive them both one after the other.

Thanks

scottnsc1

A friend of mine said that over the weekend they took a trip and coming home they noticed that the dash and all the controls on the dash were very hot. She ejected the CD and it was almost too hot to hold. They were on the interstate driving about 75-80 mph for 3 hours. I told her it seemed strange that a vehicle would be this hot behind the firewall. Has anyone else noticed this?

hayhay

I do alot of traveling and the heat generated around the dash is extensive. cd's always TOO HOT to hold...

cmack4

I haven't noticed any heat issues coming from the 6-disc changer (Bose) in my Bravada. The longest trip I took was about 4 hours, and my wife exchanged some cd's about halfway through and didn't mention any heat...

johntr

Thanks for the clarification cmack4 - I'm going to crawl under there next time & mark the points. I haven't done my own changes as I don't have a garage (on street parking - OH MY!) yet...

I was only going by the checklist that I review when my lube shop does the work. I'll make it a point to review again with them next visit.

cmack4

I feel for you johntr! I used to live in an apartment complex, so I had no place to work on a car. Luckily, as a DOD Civilian, I have access to a full Automotive Center where I work. Now, I live in a house and have a garage at home, but it in no way compares... They have all Snap-On hand tools, hydraulic lifts, a full array of air tools, and just about anything else a professional auto garage would have! All that and they only charge $2 an hour for everything! Now if only I could get them to stock parts!

dshepherd3

Crawled under, actually jacked up, my TB and didn't see any fittings on the suspension or steering nor is there any mention in the maintenance schedule( not the bible for service) aluminum driveshaft and brake calipers are interesting as well as the synthetic gas tank.

scottc454

Gee, with all that aluminum (or aluminium for you Canadians)
what makes these things so heavy?

lurker01

I have the BOSE and my parents have the stock CD/tape unit. Thier's gets hot quickly and after long drives, the CD is quite hot. Mine seems to stay much cooler. I have not done a multi-hour drive yet, but my CDs and dash are not warm after an hour. Delco radios are famous for being space heaters. I think the BOSE unit made some improvements here. I'll have to wait and see what happens this summer with some long road trips.

fletch45

I read somewhere that the Bose uses a seperate amplifier. That would explain why the Bose head unit does not run as hot.
jim f

jaguar0027

tell me if its worth looking at a TB or Envoy vs. the Ford Explorer or Nissan Pathfinder.

Im in the SUV market and although I like the new GM's, it seems that there are build quality issues. (I currently drive a Silverado)

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

gator36

My Wife just bought a TB and loves it.
I am very picky and can usually find work for the service department. We have had it 5 days now and cannot find anything wrong.

Production Build date 02/2002.

Chevy 2002 LS/2WD

coupe3

I am planning to buy TB 4WD LS. Is air suspension is an option on TB or it is a standard feature. Thanks.

scottc454

You can't get the air suspension on the Trailblazer. Only on the Envoy and Bravada can you get it. I think it's an option on the Envoy and standard on the Bravada.

The ride is great with the coil springs, though.

cmack4

It seems to me that build quality varies from one vehicle to another, so don't let it hamper your decision to buy... just thoroughly inspect the vehicle before you pick it up (take delivery), and if possible arrange the pickup during the daytime. Also, take the vehicle out on a good 10-15min test drive! Some things to look for:

Door and body panel alignment (rare, but harder to fix if it's bad)
Roof rack mounting (wind noise, easy fix by moving crossbars or turning them around)
Loose body moldings (easy fix with 3M Molding tape)
Loose Weatherstripping (have them reglue it, check the baffles on the inside front fenders as well as they tend to come loose)
Sagging Headliner panel (Radio Shack hook & loop, can't beat it!)

I'm sure there's other things I'm leaving out, but as you can see most of the problems are of a very minor nature... and not uncommon to any vehicle. Be thorough in your inspection and you shouldn't have to worry about anything that won't be covered by warranty! It's well worth a few minor fixable demons to have an excellent all-around vehicle in my opinion...

noller2g

The build quality of my Bravada is much better than my recent three new Ford/Lincoln products.

There are some minor problems, but I've been a Ford man since the early 90's, and I've switched.

I now have two GM vehicles and one Ford. But I ride my Valkyrie most. Perfect build quality and features and power (100 HP/ 100 FtLbs and 800 pounds weight).

WichitaGreg

2002slt

Don't forget about the paint chipping issue. I won't elaborate too much on the subject. It was over-killed in the past. Check out vplaza's post from January 12th #3316. It includes several pictures of the problem.