Postwar Studebakers

fintail

I wonder how the dimensions of that car compare to a W111/6cyl fintail, or if Stude was influenced at all via the MB partnership. It really does have a euro "sport sedan" kind of flavor.

MB also had a woolcloth/broadcloth option, but it is uncommon - most frequent for the era are a plainer cloth, vinyl/Tex, or leather.

sda

Perhaps if Studebaker offered some higher level luxury options such as power windows, power seat they may have attracted more buyers that bought a Buick instead. Having disc brakes in the Lark was impressive.

uplanderguy

Not sure about Buick's Special of the same year, but I'm thinking power windows and power seat were not typically available on compacts of that model year. But had Stude offered them exclusively, would probably be a neat thing. Power windows were only available on the Avanti in '63 and no Stude had power seat availability in '63.

Fin, per the '63 brochure, the Cruiser's dimensions are: 113" wheelbase, 188" overall length, width 71.25", loaded height 55.75"; shipping weight 3064 lbs. (I'm assuming this is the base car).

I'm so accustomed to looking at Studes, that I look at Big Three stuff differently, often, than I used to. At Hershey the year I saw that red '64 Daytona posted earlier, there was a '63 Olds F-85 Cutlass two-door nearby. Not a single thing style-wise on it was attractive to me, even though over my lifetime I've probably seen ten times as many of them as a similarly-sized Stude. Don't get me wrong--when GM made their compacts into intermediates for '64, all of them were good-looking IMHO.

fin, M-B had a folding cloth sunroof available in the sixties too, right?

uplanderguy

Went out to check on my '66 today for the first time since Oct. No flat tires, no evidence of critters but still too salty to drive. My original, patina-y hood ornament:

fintail

Cloth sunroof on Pontons, but sliding metal roof on fintails. However, aftermarket firms still offered cloth roofs for fintails.

Google finds W111 fintail dimensions as: Wheelbase: 108.3" Length: 101.9" Width: 70.7" Height: 59.4" Weight: 2910 lbs. Most powerful normal series engine was a 2195 cc (~134 cubic inch) FI I6 putting out 120-135 hp, but there was a series with a 3 liter (~183 cubic inch) putting out ~180 hp.

uplanderguy said:

Not sure about Buick's Special of the same year, but I'm thinking power windows and power seat were not typically available on compacts of that model year. But had Stude offered them exclusively, would probably be a neat thing. Power windows were only available on the Avanti in '63 and no Stude had power seat availability in '63.

Fin, per the '63 brochure, the Cruiser's dimensions are: 113" wheelbase, 188" overall length, width 71.25", loaded height 55.75"; shipping weight 3064 lbs. (I'm assuming this is the base car).

I'm so accustomed to looking at Studes, that I look at Big Three stuff differently, often, than I used to. At Hershey the year I saw that red '64 Daytona posted earlier, there was a '63 Olds F-85 Cutlass two-door nearby. Not a single thing style-wise on it was attractive to me, even though over my lifetime I've probably seen ten times as many of them as a similarly-sized Stude. Don't get me wrong--when GM made their compacts into intermediates for '64, all of them were good-looking IMHO.

fin, M-B had a folding cloth sunroof available in the sixties too, right?

bhill2

fintail said:

Cloth sunroof on Pontons, but sliding metal roof on fintails. However, aftermarket firms still offered cloth roofs for fintails.

Google finds W111 fintail dimensions as: Wheelbase: 108.3" Length: 101.9" Width: 70.7" Height: 59.4" Weight: 2910 lbs. Most powerful normal series engine was a 2195 cc (~134 cubic inch) FI I6 putting out 120-135 hp, but there was a series with a 3 liter (~183 cubic inch) putting out ~180 hp.

uplanderguy said:

Not sure about Buick's Special of the same year, but I'm thinking power windows and power seat were not typically available on compacts of that model year. But had Stude offered them exclusively, would probably be a neat thing. Power windows were only available on the Avanti in '63 and no Stude had power seat availability in '63.

Fin, per the '63 brochure, the Cruiser's dimensions are: 113" wheelbase, 188" overall length, width 71.25", loaded height 55.75"; shipping weight 3064 lbs. (I'm assuming this is the base car).

I'm so accustomed to looking at Studes, that I look at Big Three stuff differently, often, than I used to. At Hershey the year I saw that red '64 Daytona posted earlier, there was a '63 Olds F-85 Cutlass two-door nearby. Not a single thing style-wise on it was attractive to me, even though over my lifetime I've probably seen ten times as many of them as a similarly-sized Stude. Don't get me wrong--when GM made their compacts into intermediates for '64, all of them were good-looking IMHO.

fin, M-B had a folding cloth sunroof available in the sixties too, right?

Hey Fin. I want to see that Mercedes whose wheelbase is longer than the total length (don't worry, I'm just being a smart [non-permissible content removed])

fintail

d'oh, should have copied and pasted - indeed, it doesn't have retractable wheels or something. Length is 191.1"

bhill2 said:

Hey Fin. I want to see that Mercedes whose wheelbase is longer than the total length (don't worry, I'm just being a smart [non-permissible content removed])

uplanderguy

Funny that the 'Benz has a shorter wheelbase but longer overall length than the Cruiser. Although, the Lark was largely created by lopping off front and rear overhang from a '58 (and also a reduced wheelbase in '59).

uplanderguy

MB also had a woolcloth/broadcloth option, but it is uncommon - most frequent for the era are a plainer cloth, vinyl/Tex, or leather.

I only have ever seen one '63 Cruiser in person with broadcloth, and it was on a parts car at the shop that restored my white '63, and the interior was in tatters.

The '64 offered broadcloth as an option too, but the seat design was identical to the standard cloth seat. The '63 standard Cruiser interior was the same as the Lark Daytona two-doors, but with a center armrest in the rear seat. The optional broadcloth seating ($72 extra), as in the black Skytop above, had a completely different seat design...really, much nicer than the '64.

fintail

The fancier cloth in old MBs was a different pattern than other cloth or hard surfaces, too. MB actually had it optional in a slightly updated form into the 1990s, on S-Class - probably ended up like a special order item, but it existed. Top of the line 90K car (in 1990s dollars) with a cloth interior couldn't have been a common choice:



On 80s and prior cars, it looks like something from the 40s, to my eyes. This existed virtually identically going back to early 50s Adenauers. 1980s:



1950s:



Fancy cloth in a fintail:



Basic cloth in a fintail looked like this:

uplanderguy

The Adenauers are worth a bundle I'm sure, but they cracked me up in that they appeared to have late '30's styling in a four-door hardtop. I don't know if I've ever seen one in person.

fintail

Really pristine cars have some value, but restoration costs are immense, so they are a labor of love. Lots of wood and expensive interiors, hard to find trim pieces, relatively complex engines, etc.

The hardtops were second series cars, from late 1957 until 1962 (US cars probably registered as MY 1958-63), and had fuel injection with Borg-Warner transmisisons. Must have been an "out there" choice in the era, and I suspect appealed to the same people who admired Rolls-Royce. A little over 3000 units were built during the production run, for all markets, many survive.

uplanderguy said:

The Adenauers are worth a bundle I'm sure, but they cracked me up in that they appeared to have late '30's styling in a four-door hardtop. I don't know if I've ever seen one in person.

uplanderguy

The '62 Lark grille insert aped M-B I think, but the revised '63 roofline (no more wraparound windshield; thin door-window frames) looked more M-B overall IMHO, although no one would confuse the two. Here's the '62 grille insert:

uplanderguy

This is probably my favorite '63 handout--a newspaper-y piece that opens up. Given at the auto shows. I think the whole line looks great from this angle, and of course it included the Daytona Skytop like I owned for 23 years.

fintail

Out of all those, the Avanti is probably easiest to find today, especially in decent condition - I bet nobody imagined that.

I think the MB thing isn't coincidence, given the link between the companies. Both might have had similar marketing too - for people who wanted the possibility a highly equipped car, but one smaller than an aircraft carrier.

uplanderguy

I agree totally on all counts. The Avanti being fiberglas-bodied probably doesn't hurt.

As I've mentioned a lot before, the '63 four-door styling just grabs me.

The Wagonaire roof could be locked open in a few positions, but why on an overhead shot they don't show it full-open seems a goof to me.

uplanderguy

The '63 slogan, "From The Advanced Thinking of Studebaker", reminds me of something that happened to me at the 1995 SDC International Meet at Greenfield Village. I had only gotten my Skytop back from the restoration shop the week before and drove it the 3 1/2 hours or so to Dearborn. It poured rain one day. The decklid shape was pretty curvy. I was talking to a guy I knew there and opened the decklid and a good bit of water fell into the trunk. He said, "From The Advanced Thinking of Studebaker", LOL.

ab348

Found this pic of the Studebaker dealer in Grimsby Ontario circa 1964.

sda

Some have single headlights, some dual. Is this a trim level difference or model year?

uplanderguy

The two lower lines, Challenger and Commander, had singles standard, duals optional. The two upper lines, Daytona and Cruiser, had duals (quads?) standard.

That's a pretty big inventory of new cars for a town with a population of four digits!

Those are all 1964 models. The '64 Hawk and Avanti and trucks weren't built in Canada even before they were dropped at South Bend, but were sold there I believe, so my guess is this pic is sometime after Jan. 1964 by which all remaining production took place in Hamilton, Ontario.

Matter of fact, it was 55 years ago today that the last Studebaker was built, a Timberline Turquoise (like mine) '66 Cruiser with white vinyl top and black brocade interior. It was driven by a Stude exec in South Bend 'til 1969 and has 19K miles and is in the Studebaker National Museum.

ab348

At first glance I missed the dealership name on the rooftop sign, "Packham Motors". Combined with the Grimsby location, which is just outside Hamilton, Ontario (so not far from the Canadian Studebaker plant), I realized that there was a bit of a connection for me to this place. Packham Motors was owned by Ollie Packham, and he drag raced a Studebaker in that area. His son Ken Packham worked on the car and became both a racer himself as well as a track announcer. At some point, Ken relocated to Halifax and became a radio DJ on one of the country music stations here, and remained involved in the car and racing scene, and was a constant presence announcing at tracks here for years. Ken also had a weekly automotive show on the local cable community channel which was quite entertaining. Unfortunately Ken died suddenly in 2002, far too young.

uplanderguy

Just saw this pic today of the editor of Motor Trend in a '64 Avanti with the available Halibrand wheels. I like 'em with whitewalls. If I bought a '64 I think I'd have to have them, and they are being reproduced now.

uplanderguy

From Facebook--first Avanti sold in St. Louis, at the Ben Lindenbusch dealership. Note fintail in pic. The Lark in the showroom is a '62 model; the Avanti was an early introduction. I do think it looks modern by 1962 standards.

Funny that they still had "Packard" on their signage, although until April '62 the name of the Corporation was still "Studebaker-Packard", even though there'd been no product with Packard name since 1958.

fintail

Great old MB sign above the wide whitewalled fintail, too.

Speaking of Studebaker-Packard, maybe have posted this before, but it popped up in a fintail group again. I think this is also 1962 - note the retouched tourist license plate on a Euro lights car, and the likely final run 300SL at right:

uplanderguy

With "Studebaker-Packard" being used, it's definitely April '62 or earlier.

Somewhere I had heard that every 'Benz sold in the U.S. went through South Bend first, although that seems hard-to-believe. But I have a photo in one of my club magazines that shows a warehouse full of 'Benzes in South Bend in '63.

fintail

That seems amusingly inefficient given the volume of these cars sold in CA and the west coast in general, but maybe that was how it worked for awhile - all go through an east coast port to South Bend, then by rail elsewhere.

uplanderguy

I joined a South Bend memories FB page just because I thought there'd be a lot of Studebaker stuff there, and there is. One guy a year or so ago said his Dad worked in Studebaker's Administration Building and that there were always cars available in the motor pool for employees to borrow. He said his Dad borrowed a diesel 'Benz just to try something different, and they took it to Purdue to look at the university on a long weekend. He had fond memories of the weekend and the car.

Fair amount of talk there recently about the "Partners in Progress" week-long event that happened in September '63, only three months before Studebaker announced the shutdown of assembly in the U.S. It was a thing between the cities of South Bend and Mishawaka and manufacturers there, in an effort to attract to the area new companies. I have seen pics of the big parade which featured the new '64 Studebakers. Red Skelton gave a performance at Notre Dame stadium and rode with his wife in a '64 Daytona convertible in the parade. He was a native of Vincennes, IN.

I've always heard that feelings were raw about Studebaker leaving for a lot of years. I know someone who was at the '68 national meet there and it was like that then he said. When you look back, five generations of people worked for them there. That is a long time.

Some Stude execs eventually went to MBNA afterwards.

uplanderguy

Saw this profile shot on FB today, of the '64 Daytona Hardtop R2 I saw at Hershey a few years back. I love this profile shot. Gorgeous underhood too. My choice in a compact that year. The car was sold new in Dalton, GA, a retail order. The interior pic shows the buyer didn't choose reclining seats or a pushbutton radio. Built Nov. 6, 1963, a Wednesday.

uplanderguy

Probably not good for safety, but I always liked the chrome rings around the instruments with glass faces, as opposed to the usual plastic in both places then. I like the padded dash at the bottom too, not common then.
The armrests were always small in sixties Studes other than Avantis. They are completely vinyl-covered foam. My old '63 had some vinyl worn off in the corners. South Bend didn't have NOS red nor did any vendors at Hershey the year I looked. Someone told me about an old junkyard 18 miles east of my old hometown, full of old iron. He had about a dozen '59-66 Lark-types in one place and I bought four excellent red armrests from a Cruiser for a total of five bucks. I told him I couldn't find them elsewhere and he said flatly, "Shoulda come here first".
Stude door panels, and even doors I think, of that period were thinner than other domestic products. Part of the big interior-to-small-exterior packaging I think. I think one reason I like '78 Malibu Classics is that the packaging reminds me of these Studes.

uplanderguy

On BaT--a sixties Stude not often seen for sale.

Studebaker won the bid on these trucks. All were six-cylinder, automatics, Twin Traction, and tinted windshield.

The white hubcaps are straight Studebaker truck low-line caps with the narrow "S" in the center.

I think, but am just not sure, that the nameplate/decal at the front was available NOS when I took my last tour through Studebaker International in South Bend before their move towards Indianapolis, a few years back.

The "Studebaker" script used on 1964 cars at the rear, was applied to only the right side of the Zip Van, up by the driver's door.

My Dad worked at the post office and I clearly remember these trucks in our hometown.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-studebaker-zip-van-2/?fbclid=IwAR0l9Qmf0iXRAeFGIYqHEG5K5VTxdO-LTaeMFOyGXPfbFPOkbOwwRqSMGiY

uplanderguy

Sold for $28.5K. I'm astounded.

fintail

Saw one you'd like today, @uplanderguy - white Lark hardtop (Lark VIII I think), unrestored but clean, possibly original paint, had the "TT" badge on the rear. I was out jogging/wheezing, so I was able to look at it up close - it was definitely being driven as I am on that street a few times a week, and have never seen it before.

uplanderguy

Would be a '59 through '61 with the "VIII" designation. I think those cars look a bit stubby but I can see why the '59 and '60 sold well...no fussy styling and lots of space utilization. A convertible, four-door wagon and V8 before other compacts too.

ab348

This pic was posted on the Americar group on FB today. I don't know if this is the back lot at a dealer or at the factory in South Bend, but suspect the latter.

sda

ab348 said:

This pic was posted on the Americar group on FB today. I don't know if this is the back lot at a dealer or at the factory in South Bend, but suspect the latter.

Did they ship the cars with the wheel covers installed?

uplanderguy

Yeah, that's at the plant. In fact, I know where it was taken--that's the corner of Sample St. and Lafayette, LOL. Building across the street is where Champ pickups and Avantis were assembled. The South Bend Jail is now on that corner, for probably about 15 years or so.

Weird that the cars have wheelcovers. Here's a pic from a book I have, and shows Avantis on carriers with the wheelcovers no doubt in the trunk:

uplanderguy

Sorry it's sideways.

sda

uplanderguy said:

Sorry it's sideways.

I thought I had too many glasses of wine

uplanderguy

Just saw the attached '65 ad in a Stude book today I had never seen before. "The Common-Sense Car" is not a great slogan in image-laden 1965, but with the (good IMHO) styling virtually unchanged from '64, but with significant reductions in models and body styles available, not to mention fewer options, plus GM engines, I guess what else could they do. BTW, 1965 was the final year of Studebaker being Mercedes' U.S. distributor.

fintail

I'm wondering how that 600 fits in with the "common sense" or "value" theme, and if were actually sold at Stude locations and not standalone MB facilities.

imidazol97

I saw two vehicles on a two car carrier on the overpass ahead of me over I70. I noticed
the bright colors of an older pickup, maybe 70's. Then I realized ahead of
it was Studebaker Lark. Two door. Looked like it had chrome B pillar,
maybe hardtop? And in a light, light blue.

Looking it up maybe 59 Spring Colors Bahama Blue on a 1960?

uplanderguy

I like '62 and later Larks best, but I can see why the '59 and '60 sold well. I don't think there was a car available with a bigger interior-to-exterior size ratio out there. The styling is simple by crazy 1959 and '60 standards too.

benjaminh

uplanderguy said:

Today is "International Drive Your Studebaker Day", believe it or not, so I did put twenty-one miles on it. Drove it out to Summit Racing's retail store in Tallmadge, near here. Turned over 27K today.

Catching up on this thread. Wow, great pics of your Studebaker! I'm sure you've posted the story before, but I've missed how it is that this car from almost 60 years ago only has 27k miles.

PS My wife and I are planning to visit the Studebaker Museum in a few days.

sda

@uplanderguy , with the shift quadrant PNDLR, what transmission and how many gears does your Cruiser have? I really like the complete and easy to read gauges. The glass cover over them really makes a difference as the car has gotten older. I see so many older cars with hazed or cracked plastic over the gauges which really ages the car. And your primary car is a Chevy Cruze, lol.

imidazol97

That is a very good color.
And the interior blue matches the exterior well, even after all these years.

fintail

I guess the layout in that car is a "PINDLER" rather than a "PRINDLE"

uplanderguy

Wow, those pics are from at least last year, if not the year before!

Got a clunk somewhere in the steering column to research this summer, and the original bushings up front need replaced (OK, me crowding 240 probably doesn't help--sounds like bedsprings when I get out of the car!).

You're never 'done' with an old car, even a low-mileage one, that's for sure!

uplanderguy

Ben, be aware that there is a '70's car display at the Studebaker Museum now. I get that they do that to keep locals coming, but it lessens the numbers of Studebakers on display at a given time, which bugs me. (There are still Studes there of course, just maybe a dozen or something less than usual.)

If you can, also see Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg in Auburn, IN, and if you have two days to spend (seriously), go see the Gilmore near Kalamazoo, MI--all three are relatively close together. I realize that if you have "Mrs. Ben" too much of a good thing might be.....too much for her!

uplanderguy

The trans in my '66 Cruiser is a three-speed automatic, Borg-Warner, which starts in second. You can do a fancy switcharoo with the lever to get a 1-2-3 but I don't try it. Too bad that Canadian-built Studes those last 2 1/2 model years couldn't be had with Studebaker's Powershift, which was a PRND21 quadrant, but all were floor shifts (available on even the four-door then, not industry-typical for that time).

I've posted pics here numerous times, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, my favorite car in the museum is the Bordeaux Red '64 Daytona Hardtop with Avanti power and 4-speed which was the last car built on the regular assembly lines in South Bend. It has 23.8 miles even though the display says "under 50".

uplanderguy

Ben, while you're in South Bend, the old Studebaker Administration Building is at 635 S. Main St., although it's empty now and deteriorating. Across the street will be a '60 Mercedes-Benz 180 (I think) which is kind-of ironic as in '60 Studebaker was handling 'Benz in the U.S. South of there, the neighborhood isn't all that great, FYI. The tall factory building behind the Administration Building is what was the body building, and it's been repurposed, which I was happy to see. One of the last remaining Studebaker buildings still standing in town. Studebaker until its closing occupied the SW quadrant of the city.

Tippecanoe Place is a restaurant occupying Clement Studebaker's home. It's a mansion only a block or so from the museum. The small building across the street from the museum is where the Studebaker Corp. archives are located.

Safe, fun trip!