Those "free" oil changes sure are expensive, or is it just sticker creep. Checked the MSRP on a 2002 LS identical to my 2000 and the MRSP is $2,560 higher. However it sounds like the current incentives bring the actual selling price down to the same or possibly less than what I paid for my 2002.
Also, it looks like Edmunds TMV pricing is a lot higher than what is being reported here.
Hmmm. YMMV. I just priced a 2002 exactly like my 2001 (V6 manual, moonroof, conv pkg, chrome wheels, advancetrak, in-dash 6CD. Indeed, the 2002 sticker came out $900 more than my 2001. *However*: the 2002 includes heated seats, the audiophile system and 10 more HP. I'd say the similar '02 is a better value at sticker price and add that with incentives today, a smart shopper could almost assuredly get it for less now than the X-plan price I had. In addition, for another $1300 one can get the VCS, something I would have gotten had it been available *AND* for another $300 one could get it in Vivid Red, one heck of a good looking LS!
LS modifications to attract younger audience: 1. Chop springs so car will bounce on any irregular surface and look cool. 2. Install baseball cap hangers instead of purse hanger on glove box door. 3. Sewer pipe sized exhaust pipe tip, chromed, exiting from the center of the car (special valance required). 4. Steel wheels painted black with no hub caps. 5. Special pod type tachometer mounted above the dash in the left corner or on the pillar. 6. Simulated NOS bottle (really a fire extinguisher) mounted on the passenger side of console. 7. Huge aluminum unfinished adjustable spoiler mounted on trunk lid. 8. Aftermarket product decals preapplied at the factory. 9. Dual alternators with 1 microfarad caps, dual batteries, 6000 watt amp and 4 15" subs mounted face down with holes in the bottom of the trunk floor. 10. Neon light tubes under the car and Purple neon inside.
Mclaren just doesn't know what really sells in the California "Youth" market!
28 inch rims with 10 series tires. And the body kit must drag on the pavement or it isn't working right. Why do you think they call it "ground-effect"?
Don't insult the younger generation, that's 1 Farad caps. Maybe a microFarad is good enough for an old timer like you, but if you want some bass punch.........
Also, the Lincoln customer assistance line must be updated to provide the lastest information 24x7 as to where the nearest parking lot audio system blast off battle is occuring.
Gotta have yellow tape or yellow paint on taillights and/or indiscriminately applied to various interior and exterior bezels, scoops, door handles, etc. and a fake mono windshield wiper also in yellow.
* You lose the stop-light challenge to a 14-year old on a moped. * 15 minute Jiffy Lube needs to keep your car for 3 days. * When you gas up, the attendant asks, "Can I re-duct tape that windshield for you?" * While waiting at a stop-light, people run up asking if anyone was hurt. * For the last five years, you've had to settle for making "vroom-vroom" noises while sitting in the driveway. * You keep losing dates on left turns. * Traffic reporters are starting to refer to you by name when discussing morning tie-ups. * Your tires are balding faster than Michael Bolton. * The engine burns more oil than gas. * You wouldn't mind if you were car-jacked. * You judge suitable parking spaces by the degree of downhill slope. * You have the local tow company on speed-dial. * The engine catches fire and you don't notice anything wrong until the firetruck pulls you over. * You can leave your car parked, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, and not worry about it being stolen. * Public transportation starts to look good. * Your entire car isn't worth the minimum insurance deductable. * The city sends you a notice requesting that you remove the "abandoned vehicle" from your driveway. * Even homeless people look derisively at your car. * Every time you start your car, the local smog index jumps a whole point. * The local mechanic says that doing a tune-up is just "throwing good money after bad." *You double the value of your car everytime you fill the tank. * The 8-track tape deck finnally eats your last tape. * When you try to sell it, The Old Car Trader won't accept your ad because they, "have a reputation to protect."
You forgot to mention the NEW paint colors needed:
How about -Neon Green -Bright Orange -Electric Purple & my favorite, of course - a combination of yellow in the front, gradiating to flames on the side into a vibrant red on the rear. This option would have to be only available in the "HELLS" (pronounced Hell-S ) special edition.
The lights on the wiper nozzles and the blue light bulbs. It must be the C.R.S. at my age...Can't Remember Sh..! I used to work in a speed shop in the early 70's. It was mostly "hard parts" like Holley carbs, Hooker Headers, Edelbrock manifolds, Mr. Gasket stuff. Now it's "soft parts", mainly because of California's extreme smog laws. Many guys have spare smog legal engines to drop in every two years for the test. We should all open these "dress-up" parts shops because this useless stuff really sells. Everyday, I see these cars that are actually slower and people pay for this! Countless Civics and Accords with home-cut springs, bouncing uncontrollably on every dip. Some of these guys actually have to have their friends get out to negotiate driveway entrys. Terrible taste in wheels and tires that reduce performance. I saw an X5 today where the stock wheels were not bad enough so he dropped 5 grand into at least 20" and ribbon tires. The stock X5 isn't any kind of off road champ and this guy should be afraid if he rubs a curb on a turn now. "Looks" may impress most people, but I think substance and purpose is more important. I only laugh at these abortions. For the money dumped in these now "worthless to anyone else" vehicles, these people could buy an LS!
H. L. Menken pointed out several generations ago that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. Then there was the P. T. Barnum thing.
Somewhere between the brain-dead masses who appear to be buying the LS because the salesman thought it was a good idea and the "younger generation," with whom this board seems to have many issues, is what we'd all like to buy the next time the opportunity arises. It's all a matter of degree.
There are those TQ types who'll tell you that what the customer wants should drive what the manufacturer provides. The real question, in my mind, is who Lincoln thinks their customer base is. Is it the people who might otherwise buy BMW, Audi, Merc or (had to say it) Infiniti? Or, is it the blue-hairs who want a somewhat smaller car to park incorrectly at Wal Mart or Smitty's? It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
<<<There are those TQ types who'll tell you that what the customer wants should drive what the manufacturer provides. The real question, in my mind, is who Lincoln thinks their customer base is. Is it the people who might otherwise buy BMW, Audi, Merc or (had to say it) Infiniti? Or, is it the blue-hairs who want a somewhat smaller car to park incorrectly at Wal Mart or Smitty's? It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.>>>>>
Wanted rear wheel drive performance type coupe with a little luxury. Looked at BMW. Didn't like value for dollar or salesman at any dealership. Didn't want a Benz or Lexus. Bought 2002 V8 Sport. Happy except for extra doors.
The X5 you saw might well have been a 4.6is, which has 20" wheels fitted as standard in order to clear the 14" front rotors and dual piston calipers. It stops about as quick as a new 911. Not quite as quick however; the 340 hp Alpina tuned engine helps the is go from 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, while top speed is drag limited to only 150 mph.
Its amazing how being treated right by a salesperson can influence a decision. Shoot its not like we are buying the salesperson. But I hear ya. Of course its all supposed to be purely business but in reality it does matter.
P.S. Stanny what is the times listed in the Car rags for the 0-60 for the LS Manual. On the LS vs. CTS forum best time published is 8.0 seconds by autoweek. I am sure it is better than that!
One major daily newspaper is looking for folks who drive 2002 or 2003 yellow or orange cars, and another major daily newspaper is looking for folks who successfully or unsuccessfully attempted to negotiate the purchase prices of their vehicles at the end of their lease terms. If you care to share your stories on either or both of these topics, please send an e-mail containing a short summary of your experience and your contact information to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, May 14.
Thanks much,
Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
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A television reporter is interested in hearing from folks who have driven long distances to get good prices when buying new cars or trucks. If you have a story to tell, please drop a line including your contact info and city/state of residence to jfallon@edmunds.com.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
IIRC the original tests (there really haven't been any since then anyway, at least not that I remember) had the manual in the low 7's, around 7.2. Almost identical to the V8 automatic. But there is so much variation in the test conditions and drivers that unless the cars are tested simultaneously you really can't compare. The 2002 manual should be a bit quicker with the extra horses, but I think the early tests used the 3.31 rear axle which is now 3.08, so the net may be that it's still around 7.2.
Of course Stan could probably get it under 7 flat, assuming he didn't hit too many cones. :-)
I think there are only two tests of record on the LS Manual. Maybe that early test referred to in the previous post, either C&D or R&T, at about 7.4 compared to 7.2 for the V-8. That may have been with the 3:31 rear. Of course the most recent test was late last year of a 2001 LS Manual in C&D's infamous seven manual shoot-out in which the LS was the slowest at 7.9 seconds. Of course, the 2001 had only 210 hp with the old air box and the restrictive mufflers. I'm sure my Manual with the 2002 airbox, K&N, Borla, Mobi1 1, Redline tranny lube and broken-in Duratech could maybe do 7.4? And it would be hard to hit cones going straight, unless the lack of LSD caused me to go sideways and hit a cone at the start gate. Let's lobby Brian to include a dragstrip as part of Mania IV. It's time to test straight-line performance. I'm looking to replace my Stones with "summer" tires. Do any of you gentlemen have opinions on Toyo Proxes T1-S tires (245/45/17)?
My dealer finally solved the very annoying "B" pillar rattle I have had since the car was new 25 months ago. They had on three occasions literally torn the door and pillar apart and still were unable to locate the exact cause.
Out of desperation last week, after attempting to fix it again, they ordered a new latch and striker plate. After installation of these two parts today--SUCCESS!!!!!
Several posters have mentioned this problem also and I have not seen a post previously indicating that they had been able to solve the problem.
If your car is affected, tell your dealer to replace the catch and striker plate.
I thanked my dealer (Irwin Motors Inc. of Laconia New Hampshire) profusely for sticking with the problem until it was resolved.
I saw an LSE for the first time today on the street. I pulled up behind it at a light and almost didn't even recognize it with the body colored trim around the lisense plate. Then I saw the 4 chrome exhaust tips. Since I was making a right the only other feature I was able to see was the BMW like rocker molding. Although I think the price for the package is excessive for basicly only getting replacement body parts I wish it was available when I bought. I'm going to look into ordering a silver lisense plate frame for my car. It probably only comes in primer and you have to get the dealer to paint it which will be a pain.
Hell I saw one worse than that a week ago on a dealer's lot. The one I saw had a grill that was redone in all chrome. You can just imagine all the other do dads.
The roof isn't the only problem: the description of the car says it only has 2 DOORS!!! The photo shows the passenger side of the car as being "normal" so obviously the driver's side has no doors at all. While this may make entry/egress very easy, and rapid, it raises some safety concerns
I remember reading about this on a post long ago, but can't find it. Every once in a while there is a low buzzing noise coming from the rear. It is relative to rpms. The dealer tightened up a ground cable in the trunk, but it is still doing it. I would like to have some ammo before I go back to the dealer. Only happens when the stereo is on, but still happens on mute. 2000 LS8 Sport.
For some reason, my town of about 10,000 has several LSs running around town. Shortly after purchasing mine, 2 other garages on my cul-de-sac soon had one! I always get compliments on it wherever I go and surprise everyone who rides in it when I mash the gas pedal.
Its been awhile since Ive posted here, just been real busy.
I too, had my B Pillar Rattle problem solved. Let me just say, for those who havent experienced this rattle, your blessed, because it is VERY annoying. My last post (I think I even made a post to the message boards at LLSOC.COM) indicated that I was going to try to adjust the striker plate myself, because I noticed that if I sat in the car, engine off, door closed, drivers window down..I could recreate the noise by firmly grabbing the door and pulling it/pushing it back and forth while it was closed.
Well, didnt seem to be any adjustment when you loosened the Hex bolts holding the latch to the doorjamb. So, had the dealership take a look. They fixed it within 20 minutes. They "adjuster the striker plate" and also "resecured weatherstripping".
Rattle Gone. Funny part is, for weeks I couldnt narrow down the source of the rattle. At times it sounded like it was coming from the back door, the actual B pillar...
zerotosixty, if there ever was a fix for the mystery beep, it was probably to re-program the message center on later cars to ignore the cause. Just a guess on my part. FWIW, it seems to be less frequent in my '00 V8 Sport, now approaching 50k miles. When I catch it, the message is "GEAR SELECT DATA ERROR". This has been explained as a momentary (or less) hiccup in the communication between the computer and the transmission. It doesn't hurt a thing, and is no indication of a problem. I wonder if any '01 or '02 owners have experienced the mystery beep.
I'm seeing more LSs around where I live also. I'm in Pickup Country, but there are lots of BMWs around, most of them driven by women, and it's hard to fathom why the LS is so slow to catch on. But lately somebody's doing something right.
Maybe "Travel Well" is working. Oh, geez, forget I said that; my Nomex underwear is at the cleaners.:)
I am in Omaha Nebraska Area. This weekends paper has new LS's for $27,999 in one ad and $29,995 in another. Seems like a give away. Is it worth getting a 2002 at that prive versus waiting for a 2003? How has resale been on original 00 and 01s been with these give away prices on new ones ? thanks for any help you people may be.
but not just recently, and not just the LS. The popularity of leasing and subsequent flooding of the used car market with low mileage lease returns has hurt the resale value of everything. The 0% financing and other incentives to buy new have also made late-model used cars less attractive. A Lincoln is never going to have the resale value of a BMW or Mercedes, for reasons both real and perceived, but you pay for that "value" up front when you buy the car.
That said, the prices you are quoting are a tremendous deal, IMHO, roughly 8-10k off sticker price, depending on engine & equipment. "Reliable" rumors are beginning to circulate about the '03 LS and that may be driving '02 prices down. I've seen the '03 and it is a magnificent automobile. So is my '00. Respect for the relationship LLSOC enjoys with Lincoln prevents me from directly expressing an opinion the question of cheap '02 vs. improved '03. But I will say that, to me, an '02 LS, nicely equipped, for anything like $30k is a deal I would find virtually impossible to refuse, for any reason.
I should throw in a disclaimer here: My '00 was purchased just after the '01s came out and sees 30k miles per year, so it's resale value is already in the crapper. I'll keep it at least for the duration of the five-year loan, so I don't care that much.
I sold my 2000 LS8 with 14,400 miles on it for $21,000 two weeks ago. One dealer told me $19,000 on trade & the other told me $19,750 on trade. It listed new for about $38,600. Best of luck. A $28,000 02LS6 or $30K 02LS8 would be a great deal in my opinion.
If I was in the market right now, I would not hesitate to go with a 2002 LS at those prices. It has got to be the best buy on the market right now for a high quality, V-8 available, rear wheel drive sport sedan with a race-derived suspension. Your taxes and insurance should be lower if based on actual purchase price.
Virtually no complaints heard on 2002 models, so the third model year is nearly bug- free, especially on common problems.
After viewing the extraordinary quality LS assembly process at Wixom last year, the LS team proved to me that they are committed to constant improvements and they implement them quickly.
I cannot even imagine the complexity of keeping track of running changes during the model year for warranty, NHTSA, EPA, tracking.
The 2002 LS is a quality vehicle at a great bargain in a difficult market. The enhancements on the 2003 LS will be meaningful especially to previous LS owners. They will meet and exceed the equipment available on directly competitive vehicles. The question is, is it worth approximately $10,000to you?
I would seriously consider a lease if you are worried about resale. Chicago dealers have quoted $449, $479 and $499 3 year, 0 down leases over the last two weeks.
2001 Sport V-8 owner w/ 25,000+ trouble-free miles
I too have seen the O3 at Mania 3 and my opinion is that the 03 retail price will easily break 40k on the V-8. So the 02 prices I have seen here in San Diego have got to be bargains and I think you could really steal an 02 if you wait another month or two. If you are a performance-oriented automatic buyer, the 03, either V-6 or V-8, will not disappoint. I'd pay the difference for the difference. If you are a Manual LS buyer, your only choice is to buy an 02 before they are gone. I bet you can REALLY get a deal on a new 02 Manual this summer. The previous comment on low mileage lease returns is spot on. Those Red Carpet 3 year leases are going to pop on the early 2000's very soon. I am curious as to what the Manuals are going to be worth. My 2000 Manual lease is up in June 2003. If Ford Motor Credit begs me enough, I may buy the car and then lease a new toy. It has to have a 0-60 under 6 seconds, have LSD, a manual tranny and be under 35k (hint - it's a two door version of a newly released model but not out until this summer). I've almost given up on four doors because all the manufacturers bias themselves against true performance four-doors despite the fact that there is really only a two door difference. This is either a conspiracy or ignorance because even BMW is in this league. I also wonder when this horsepower nirvana is going to get clobbered by either the insurance companies or an oil crisis (real or manufactured like 1974). Too bad so much gas is being wasted just moving lumbering, road blocking, ready to tip-over SUVs (despite the 24" wheels and super low profile tires). What's next - an X5 at a Solo 2 event?
I think what Stan is referring to when he says there may not be a manual LS in 2003 is just an opinion (shared by others) that the current extremely low sales volume (0.5% or about 200 cars per year at the current rates) isn't enough to justify the extra configuration (plus the fact that the LS will not be exported to Europe as originally planned).
I do not believe that Lincoln has commented either way yet. It is certainly a possibility but we won't know for sure until Lincoln announces the 2003. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
we all know the CTS is gaining steam in the market and that its pricing seems to be holding close to sticker right now.
we also know the LS needs incentives to move right now, so indeed there are great deals.
Car wise, the LS is a fine piece, and the CTS is fine also. Its debatable just how much more fine the CTS is than the LS. In perception, the CTS is new so the current wave of publicity may suggest the CTS is like 10 times better than the LS but in actuality (especially for the skill level of most drivers) the LS is almost dead even in capabilities with the CTS. The LS is really just as good a car, its just been on the market for awhile, so it doesn't have the "buzz" that would accompany a new model release. Which is why its priced so attractively right now.
My question is, with the CTS generating so much press and discussion, are there enough folks out now shopping US sport sedan models that some folks who were initially looking only at CTS....will they now take a second fresh look at the LS and actually choose the LS over the CTS because of its current excellent value? (could be 10 grand or more cheaper than CTS).
A car like the CTS is bringing new shoppers into the US near lux segment and I bet many of those have been SUV owners moving to cars.
I think potentialy this could have a postive effect on LS sales.
Lincoln should have done a better redesign on the 03 aesthetically though...not enough changes from 02 to 03......
True, no official announcement about the fate of the Manual has been offered. I do not expect an official acknowledgement at any time. I have not been told by any official source that the Manual is discontinued. Sources close to LM have not volunteered the facts. Sometimes the abscence of validation one way or the other is a clue. At Mania 3, there was no 03 Manual represented, although an 02 Manual graced the entry of LM HQ (or is it the former LM HQ?). During the Q and A session following the unveiling of the 03's (both automatics), myself and another Manual owner quieried an unnamed executive who definitely would know and he deflected the question, giving rise to my strong speculation on the fate of the Manual. Believe me, I would be the most elated man on earth to have an 03 Manual. With the unnamed engine improvement to the V-6 in 03, the Manual would be a much more driveable car. I don;t know if it would match the CTS, but a marked improvement for sure. Horsepower and torque readings can be deceptive. Both are peak numbers. The range of torque, especially, is critical. A heavy car like the LS would really benefit by the 03 improvements. Alas, I don't think there is any way to "backdate" the earlier models. I imagine that even the Borla system will not fit the 03. To be sure, LM has been listening to the majority of their customers. The improvements will reflect that. The 03 will be state of the art as the market is at this point. I see much more in performance improvement than luxury enhancement in the 03 and that is a positive sign. I really can't expect LM to cater to the small contingent of hard-[non-permissible content removed] gearheads that buy Manual transmissions. We really need a special SVT model. But the Mclaren approach is too high buck for me. I don't need the added gingerbread. In the 60's, you could order your GTO and delete the soundproofing to save weight. I'm not suggesting that radical an approach, but some of us, given the choice, would prefer it simpler and focus more on performance/value ratios. While I think GM has been a stone for about 20 years, 70 year old Bob Lutz is trying to make up for lost time. It's a pity he has to go to Australia to get a new GTO. But he may dig into the parts bins and make some great cars. My generation is paying for nostalgia cars and being from Chrysler, and being his age, he knows what GM has in it's history. Remember, he has his own jet fighter. He can still swill a thrill that Bill Ford can only chill. This is our last blast at cheap gas and high horsepower. The Middle East is going to become a real powderkeg so enjoy your SUV as well. Times will change relatively soon.
<<<we all know the CTS is gaining steam in the market and that its pricing seems to be holding close to sticker right now.>>>>
The TV ads are making the difference at the moment. The CTS ad shows a percieved exciting car blasting down the road just like all the other "luxury performance" car manufactures do. BMW etc. I fall asleep watching the LS ad even though I know it's more car. Lincoln will never turn the tide with the current ad campaign. I've been in a CTS and the interior is butt ugly.
My 2001 LS has 31K miles on it. I have the V8/sport package, and lately I'm hearing a lot of tire noise. The dealer says the Firestones need replacement. Any recommendations on what to replace them with?
Ronaldcross - it depends on what you want to spend and where you live. You certainly got your money's worth out of the Stones. It shows that you are a fairly conservative driver and have missed Mania 1 and 3. The same Stones are about $120 at Tire Rack. Not a bad tire really. Comes in the 235/50/17 size only. Next is the step up to the maximum 245/45/17 size. You have your choice of "Summer" tires, most of which have AA Traction ratings, and All-Season Tires for those of us who drive in the white and wet stuff. I assume you need an All-Season variety. The top rated tire is the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S for $228 each. The LLSOC Pres did some pretty good times on these. If you live in Socal like I do, you need an All-Season like a fish needs a bicycle. The choice widens by price. The big buck boys like the Michelin Pilot Sport at $264 per. Next are the LLSOC Pres' current fav -the Bridgestone Potenza SO-3 Pole Positions at $178 each. Next down is the tried and true Micheli Pilot SXMXX3 at $168 each. All these tires are rated on the Tire Rack web site. Currently, my Stones are at 26,000 miles and the rears are almost at the wear bars. I am considering the Toyo Proxes T1-S from OnlineTires.com. My local dealer quoted me an outrageous $1414.44 out the door. But Online had them at $173.00 each plus shipping. Including sales tax in California, that's $740.60 delivered plus about $9.00 each for mounting and balancing at my nearby Costco. What a deal. The Toyos are what the Mclaren LS' are wearing. Really, the original Stones are great tires, designed for our cars. If you want a good all-season, you have to consider the Stones. Me, I'm going for the Toyos next week. We'll get a real world test at a future Mania event and see how they do against the SO-3s. Good Luck and give us some feedback on your choice.
Great point about the options. I still fondly remember the "a-la-carte" way of buying a vehicle, rather than today's package A or B way of doing things.
Comments
Also, it looks like Edmunds TMV pricing is a lot higher than what is being reported here.
I just priced a 2002 exactly like my 2001 (V6 manual, moonroof, conv pkg, chrome wheels, advancetrak, in-dash 6CD.
Indeed, the 2002 sticker came out $900 more than my 2001. *However*: the 2002 includes heated seats, the audiophile system and 10 more HP. I'd say the similar '02 is a better value at sticker price and add that with incentives today, a smart shopper could almost assuredly get it for less now than the X-plan price I had.
In addition, for another $1300 one can get the VCS, something I would have gotten had it been available *AND* for another $300 one could get it in Vivid Red, one heck of a good looking LS!
Steve
Steve
1. Chop springs so car will bounce on any irregular surface and look cool.
2. Install baseball cap hangers instead of purse hanger on glove box door.
3. Sewer pipe sized exhaust pipe tip, chromed, exiting from the center of the car (special valance required).
4. Steel wheels painted black with no hub caps.
5. Special pod type tachometer mounted above the dash in the left corner or on the pillar.
6. Simulated NOS bottle (really a fire extinguisher) mounted on the passenger side of console.
7. Huge aluminum unfinished adjustable spoiler mounted on trunk lid.
8. Aftermarket product decals preapplied at the factory.
9. Dual alternators with 1 microfarad caps, dual batteries, 6000 watt amp and 4 15" subs mounted face down with holes in the bottom of the trunk floor.
10. Neon light tubes under the car and Purple neon inside.
Mclaren just doesn't know what really sells in the California "Youth" market!
Also, the Lincoln customer assistance line must be updated to provide the lastest information 24x7 as to where the nearest parking lot audio system blast off battle is occuring.
* 15 minute Jiffy Lube needs to keep your car for 3 days.
* When you gas up, the attendant asks, "Can I re-duct tape that windshield for you?"
* While waiting at a stop-light, people run up asking if anyone was hurt.
* For the last five years, you've had to settle for making "vroom-vroom" noises while sitting in the driveway.
* You keep losing dates on left turns.
* Traffic reporters are starting to refer to you by name when discussing morning tie-ups.
* Your tires are balding faster than Michael Bolton.
* The engine burns more oil than gas.
* You wouldn't mind if you were car-jacked.
* You judge suitable parking spaces by the degree of downhill slope.
* You have the local tow company on speed-dial.
* The engine catches fire and you don't notice anything wrong until the firetruck pulls you over.
* You can leave your car parked, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, and not worry about it being stolen.
* Public transportation starts to look good.
* Your entire car isn't worth the minimum insurance deductable.
* The city sends you a notice requesting that you remove the "abandoned vehicle" from your driveway.
* Even homeless people look derisively at your car.
* Every time you start your car, the local smog index jumps a whole point.
* The local mechanic says that doing a tune-up is just "throwing good money after bad."
*You double the value of your car everytime you fill the tank.
* The 8-track tape deck finnally eats your last tape.
* When you try to sell it, The Old Car Trader won't accept your ad because they, "have a reputation to protect."
You forgot to mention the NEW paint colors needed:
How about
-Neon Green
-Bright Orange
-Electric Purple
& my favorite, of course - a combination of yellow in the front, gradiating to flames on the side into a vibrant red on the rear. This option would have to be only available in the "HELLS" (pronounced Hell-S ) special edition.
I used to work in a speed shop in the early 70's. It was mostly "hard parts" like Holley carbs, Hooker Headers, Edelbrock manifolds, Mr. Gasket stuff.
Now it's "soft parts", mainly because of California's extreme smog laws. Many guys have spare smog legal engines to drop in every two years for the test.
We should all open these "dress-up" parts shops because this useless stuff really sells.
Everyday, I see these cars that are actually slower and people pay for this!
Countless Civics and Accords with home-cut springs, bouncing uncontrollably on every dip. Some of these guys actually have to have their friends get out to negotiate driveway entrys.
Terrible taste in wheels and tires that reduce performance.
I saw an X5 today where the stock wheels were not bad enough so he dropped 5 grand into at least 20" and ribbon tires. The stock X5 isn't any kind of off road champ and this guy should be afraid if he rubs a curb on a turn now.
"Looks" may impress most people, but I think substance and purpose is more important. I only laugh at these abortions.
For the money dumped in these now "worthless to anyone else" vehicles, these people could buy an LS!
H. L. Menken pointed out several generations ago that no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. Then there was the P. T. Barnum thing.
Somewhere between the brain-dead masses who appear to be buying the LS because the salesman thought it was a good idea and the "younger generation," with whom this board seems to have many issues, is what we'd all like to buy the next time the opportunity arises. It's all a matter of degree.
There are those TQ types who'll tell you that what the customer wants should drive what the manufacturer provides. The real question, in my mind, is who Lincoln thinks their customer base is. Is it the people who might otherwise buy BMW, Audi, Merc or (had to say it) Infiniti? Or, is it the blue-hairs who want a somewhat smaller car to park incorrectly at Wal Mart or Smitty's? It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
Wanted rear wheel drive performance type coupe with a little luxury. Looked at BMW. Didn't like value for dollar or salesman at any dealership. Didn't want a Benz or Lexus. Bought 2002 V8 Sport. Happy except for extra doors.
P.S. Stanny what is the times listed in the Car rags for the 0-60 for the LS Manual. On the LS vs. CTS forum best time published is 8.0 seconds by autoweek. I am sure it is better than that!
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Jeannine Fallon
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Of course Stan could probably get it under 7 flat, assuming he didn't hit too many cones. :-)
Of course the most recent test was late last year of a 2001 LS Manual in C&D's infamous seven manual shoot-out in which the LS was the slowest at 7.9 seconds.
Of course, the 2001 had only 210 hp with the old air box and the restrictive mufflers.
I'm sure my Manual with the 2002 airbox, K&N, Borla, Mobi1 1, Redline tranny lube and broken-in Duratech could maybe do 7.4? And it would be hard to hit cones going straight, unless the lack of LSD caused me to go sideways and hit a cone at the start gate.
Let's lobby Brian to include a dragstrip as part of Mania IV. It's time to test straight-line performance.
I'm looking to replace my Stones with "summer" tires. Do any of you gentlemen have opinions on Toyo Proxes T1-S tires (245/45/17)?
Out of desperation last week, after attempting to fix it again, they ordered a new latch and striker plate. After installation of these two parts today--SUCCESS!!!!!
Several posters have mentioned this problem also and I have not seen a post previously indicating that they had been able to solve the problem.
If your car is affected, tell your dealer to replace the catch and striker plate.
I thanked my dealer (Irwin Motors Inc. of Laconia New Hampshire) profusely for sticking with the problem until it was resolved.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826748156&r=0&t=0
The photo shows the passenger side of the car as being "normal" so obviously the driver's side has no doors at all. While this may make entry/egress very easy, and rapid, it raises some safety concerns
For some reason, my town of about 10,000 has several LSs running around town. Shortly after purchasing mine, 2 other garages on my cul-de-sac soon had one! I always get compliments on it wherever I go and surprise everyone who rides in it when I mash the gas pedal.
Was there ever a solution to the phantom beep?
Thanks a lot!
I too, had my B Pillar Rattle problem solved. Let me just say, for those who havent experienced this rattle, your blessed, because it is VERY annoying. My last post (I think I even made a post to the message boards at LLSOC.COM) indicated that I was going to try to adjust the striker plate myself, because I noticed that if I sat in the car, engine off, door closed, drivers window down..I could recreate the noise by firmly grabbing the door and pulling it/pushing it back and forth while it was closed.
Well, didnt seem to be any adjustment when you loosened the Hex bolts holding the latch to the doorjamb. So, had the dealership take a look. They fixed it within 20 minutes. They "adjuster the striker plate" and also "resecured weatherstripping".
Rattle Gone. Funny part is, for weeks I couldnt narrow down the source of the rattle. At times it sounded like it was coming from the back door, the actual B pillar...
Glad its gone...
I'm seeing more LSs around where I live also. I'm in Pickup Country, but there are lots of BMWs around, most of them driven by women, and it's hard to fathom why the LS is so slow to catch on. But lately somebody's doing something right.
Maybe "Travel Well" is working. Oh, geez, forget I said that; my Nomex underwear is at the cleaners.:)
Scott
LLSOC Member
That said, the prices you are quoting are a tremendous deal, IMHO, roughly 8-10k off sticker price, depending on engine & equipment. "Reliable" rumors are beginning to circulate about the '03 LS and that may be driving '02 prices down. I've seen the '03 and it is a magnificent automobile. So is my '00. Respect for the relationship LLSOC enjoys with Lincoln prevents me from directly expressing an opinion the question of cheap '02 vs. improved '03. But I will say that, to me, an '02 LS, nicely equipped, for anything like $30k is a deal I would find virtually impossible to refuse, for any reason.
I should throw in a disclaimer here: My '00 was purchased just after the '01s came out and sees 30k miles per year, so it's resale value is already in the crapper. I'll keep it at least for the duration of the five-year loan, so I don't care that much.
Scott
LLSOC Member
If I was in the market right now, I would not hesitate to go with a 2002 LS at those prices. It has got to be the best buy on the market right now for a high quality, V-8 available, rear wheel drive sport sedan with a race-derived suspension. Your taxes and insurance should be lower if based on actual purchase price.
Virtually no complaints heard on 2002 models, so the third model year is nearly bug- free, especially on common problems.
After viewing the extraordinary quality LS assembly process at Wixom last year, the LS team proved to me that they are committed to constant improvements and they implement them quickly.
I cannot even imagine the complexity of keeping track of running changes during the model year for warranty, NHTSA, EPA, tracking.
The 2002 LS is a quality vehicle at a great bargain in a difficult market. The enhancements on the 2003 LS will be meaningful especially to previous LS owners. They will meet and exceed the equipment available on directly competitive vehicles. The question is, is it worth approximately $10,000to you?
I would seriously consider a lease if you are worried about resale. Chicago dealers have quoted $449, $479 and $499 3 year, 0 down leases over the last two weeks.
2001 Sport V-8 owner w/
25,000+ trouble-free miles
Bruno
So the 02 prices I have seen here in San Diego have got to be bargains and I think you could really steal an 02 if you wait another month or two.
If you are a performance-oriented automatic buyer, the 03, either V-6 or V-8, will not disappoint. I'd pay the difference for the difference.
If you are a Manual LS buyer, your only choice is to buy an 02 before they are gone. I bet you can REALLY get a deal on a new 02 Manual this summer.
The previous comment on low mileage lease returns is spot on. Those Red Carpet 3 year leases are going to pop on the early 2000's very soon. I am curious as to what the Manuals are going to be worth.
My 2000 Manual lease is up in June 2003. If Ford Motor Credit begs me enough, I may buy the car and then lease a new toy. It has to have a 0-60 under 6 seconds, have LSD, a manual tranny and be under 35k (hint - it's a two door version of a newly released model but not out until this summer). I've almost given up on four doors because all the manufacturers bias themselves against true performance four-doors despite the fact that there is really only a two door difference. This is either a conspiracy or ignorance because even BMW is in this league.
I also wonder when this horsepower nirvana is going to get clobbered by either the insurance companies or an oil crisis (real or manufactured like 1974).
Too bad so much gas is being wasted just moving lumbering, road blocking, ready to tip-over SUVs (despite the 24" wheels and super low profile tires). What's next - an X5 at a Solo 2 event?
I do not believe that Lincoln has commented either way yet. It is certainly a possibility but we won't know for sure until Lincoln announces the 2003. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
we also know the LS needs incentives to move right now, so indeed there are great deals.
Car wise, the LS is a fine piece, and the CTS is fine also. Its debatable just how much more fine the CTS is than the LS. In perception, the CTS is new so the current wave of publicity may suggest the CTS is like 10 times better than the LS but in actuality (especially for the skill level of most drivers) the LS is almost dead even in capabilities with the CTS. The LS is really just as good a car, its just been on the market for awhile, so it doesn't have the "buzz" that would accompany a new model release. Which is why its priced so attractively right now.
My question is, with the CTS generating so much press and discussion, are there enough folks out now shopping US sport sedan models that some folks who were initially looking only at CTS....will they now take a second fresh look at the LS and actually choose the LS over the CTS because of its current excellent value? (could be 10 grand or more cheaper than CTS).
A car like the CTS is bringing new shoppers into the US near lux segment and I bet many of those have been SUV owners moving to cars.
I think potentialy this could have a postive effect on LS sales.
Lincoln should have done a better redesign on the 03 aesthetically though...not enough changes from 02 to 03......
Sources close to LM have not volunteered the facts. Sometimes the abscence of validation one way or the other is a clue.
At Mania 3, there was no 03 Manual represented, although an 02 Manual graced the entry of LM HQ (or is it the former LM HQ?).
During the Q and A session following the unveiling of the 03's (both automatics), myself and another Manual owner quieried an unnamed executive who definitely would know and he deflected the question, giving rise to my strong speculation on the fate of the Manual.
Believe me, I would be the most elated man on earth to have an 03 Manual. With the unnamed engine improvement to the V-6 in 03, the Manual would be a much more driveable car. I don;t know if it would match the CTS, but a marked improvement for sure.
Horsepower and torque readings can be deceptive. Both are peak numbers. The range of torque, especially, is critical. A heavy car like the LS would really benefit by the 03 improvements.
Alas, I don't think there is any way to "backdate" the earlier models. I imagine that even the Borla system will not fit the 03.
To be sure, LM has been listening to the majority of their customers. The improvements will reflect that. The 03 will be state of the art as the market is at this point. I see much more in performance improvement than luxury enhancement in the 03 and that is a positive sign.
I really can't expect LM to cater to the small contingent of hard-[non-permissible content removed] gearheads that buy Manual transmissions. We really need a special SVT model. But the Mclaren approach is too high buck for me. I don't need the added gingerbread. In the 60's, you could order your GTO and delete the soundproofing to save weight. I'm not suggesting that radical an approach, but some of us, given the choice, would prefer it simpler and focus more on performance/value ratios.
While I think GM has been a stone for about 20 years, 70 year old Bob Lutz is trying to make up for lost time. It's a pity he has to go to Australia to get a new GTO. But he may dig into the parts bins and make some great cars. My generation is paying for nostalgia cars and being from Chrysler, and being his age, he knows what GM has in it's history. Remember, he has his own jet fighter. He can still swill a thrill that Bill Ford can only chill.
This is our last blast at cheap gas and high horsepower. The Middle East is going to become a real powderkeg so enjoy your SUV as well. Times will change relatively soon.
The TV ads are making the difference at the moment. The CTS ad shows a percieved exciting car blasting down the road just like all the other "luxury performance" car manufactures do. BMW etc. I fall asleep watching the LS ad even though I know it's more car. Lincoln will never turn the tide with the current ad campaign. I've been in a CTS and the interior is butt ugly.
The same Stones are about $120 at Tire Rack. Not a bad tire really. Comes in the 235/50/17 size only.
Next is the step up to the maximum 245/45/17 size. You have your choice of "Summer" tires, most of which have AA Traction ratings, and All-Season Tires for those of us who drive in the white and wet stuff.
I assume you need an All-Season variety. The top rated tire is the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S for $228 each. The LLSOC Pres did some pretty good times on these.
If you live in Socal like I do, you need an All-Season like a fish needs a bicycle. The choice widens by price.
The big buck boys like the Michelin Pilot Sport at $264 per. Next are the LLSOC Pres' current fav -the Bridgestone Potenza SO-3 Pole Positions at $178 each. Next down is the tried and true Micheli Pilot SXMXX3 at $168 each.
All these tires are rated on the Tire Rack web site.
Currently, my Stones are at 26,000 miles and the rears are almost at the wear bars. I am considering the Toyo Proxes T1-S from OnlineTires.com. My local dealer quoted me an outrageous $1414.44 out the door. But Online had them at $173.00 each plus shipping. Including sales tax in California, that's $740.60 delivered plus about $9.00 each for mounting and balancing at my nearby Costco. What a deal. The Toyos are what the Mclaren LS' are wearing.
Really, the original Stones are great tires, designed for our cars. If you want a good all-season, you have to consider the Stones.
Me, I'm going for the Toyos next week. We'll get a real world test at a future Mania event and see how they do against the SO-3s.
Good Luck and give us some feedback on your choice.