Hey... I wouldn't rule out the 2000 year either. Yeah, I had the rear window regulators replaced under warrantee, and I would expect most 2000 models around have already had that done. I just completed a 6600 mile trip, and our 2000 LS is still completely reliable and a complete joy to drive. Heck, I still have the original battery!
Lincoln's future sedan plans could include two vehicles spun from the same D3 platform that has already bred the Ford Five Hundred/Freestyle/Montego trio. Automotive News reports that Lincoln will follow its new Zephyr sedan due this fall with a pair of upscale sedans based on the Volvo/Ford platform that has spawned the Five Hundred sedan. The new sedans would replace the LS rear-driver with a new mid-size sedan from the new platform in 2007. A larger four-door would bow in 2008 and may be dubbed the Continental. Both would be powered by a version of the Yamaha-built 4.4-liter V-8 recently introduced in the Volvo XC90 sedan. Both vehicles would be built in Atlanta alongside a new crossover vehicle coming for Lincoln. "
So if I want to get a new LS it looks like next year will be my last chance.
Something broke in the lock. The dealer fixed it in about an hour. That was a long time ago. NVBANKER: On buying a used LS, I owned a 00 8 sport than an 02 8 prem. I sold them than I needed a second car for my wife. I found a 00 6 sport with 50 K about 6 mouths ago. My third LS. I have had no problems. 6 has good power, plus better gas milage. Only difference in power, the V8 from 70 MPH on will out perform the V6. So don't over look the 2000 model if the price is right.
I am getting ready to replace speakers in 2000 Ls. Do I really have to take the door panels off. Is there a visual step-by-step of doing the install. I am going to do it and post the process if I can.
If you are unsure if you need to take the door panel off to get to the speakers behind the door panel, maybe you should think about paying someone else to install them.
I know we've hashed this around before, and ANT appears to be gone (for good?) but it's becoming quite apparent to me once again that Lincoln is really dropping the ball by dropping the LS. Why?
1) LS has been a good seller for them. Can't say that about many of their recent models. 2) The LS is and would be their only serious sports sedan, without even considerig it to be their only modern RWD car. The competition is good and important (CTS, BMW, ...) 3) The LS is sized between the Zephyr and the "2 new sedans" we've been hearing about lately. The Z is small and perhaps nimble, but is FWD/AWD. The 2 new ones (I have seen them at a consumer input survey) are both bigger than the LS. I'd say substantially bigger. They're FWD/AWD as well so the only RWD Lincoln will have is the Town Car (if they keep it) and that competes against only horse-driven carriages I think. 4) Lincoln will be abandoning the nimble Luxo-Sport RWD market totally. 5) Their new cars will be competing against Audi, Volvo, Mercury and Ford as I see it. Who else is doing FWD/AWD cars? 6) The Z is way overpriced at $30K to start. Course without the LS as a competitive balance, Ford can try to squeeze $30 to 40K for their little gussied-up Mazda 6. Were the LS still available, the Z would need to be priced at $26K or so, which is probably where it should be. 7) I had the experience of driving a Mazda 6 last week for a day. My LS was rear-ended to the tune of $3500 and I needed a rental. Ins covered the Mazda. I tried it, took it back the next day and paid extra for an Infiniti G-35. The Mazda 6 was barely passable. I wonder how much better the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr can/will be? 8) The 2 new sedans are beautiful, no doubt - take my word for it. But they will not be anything like the LS. Size alone will prohibit that. FWD puts the final nail in.
So I guess I'm pretty bugged that Lincoln has taken a car that was proclaimed "the best American sedan we've ever tested" by Consumer Reports in 2000, let it languish and finally killed it off in favor of warmed-over Mazdas made in Mexico and stretched Volvos with a Yamaha engine no less.
I must admit, I don't see the logic in it. I seriously doubt there'll be more than a dozen LS owners looking at or buying any of these 3 cars. So Lincoln will have squandered all the good will they built up with us and off we'll go somewhere else and so who are their potential customers? Former Continental owners? OK, maybe, assuming many are still above ground. Who else? Montego buyers who want more luxo-trappings? Sure, assuming there are any of the former. How long have the 500/Montego twins been on sale now? I've seen a total of 3 on the road w/actual plates on them.
I guess this is the future of Lincoln then. FWD/AWD luxo-barges AND, lest I forget, Lincoln brass is also designing a "people-mover vehicle", AKA a minivan. The perfect addition to this lineup, wouldn't you say?
You said it... like I think. I agree that there will be a stampede out of Lincoln. I hope that I will not get trampled. I have had 3 LSs and when my 2003 time has come, I will leave Lincoln. I will miss the great service. I hope that the SUITS in Detroit rethink the LS. My feeling is that if they add about 4 inches to the back seat leg room they could keep this car around , with few changes , for a long time. The styling is classic.
However, the LS costs more than it can be sold for. That high-zoot suspension with all the aluminum and other goodies doesn't come cheap. Battery in the trunk (long large-gauge copper wires), aluminum hood & front fenders. That 52/48 (mine's a 6) front/rear weight distribution definitely costs, both in non-recurring engineering & recurring cost in each vehicle. All pearls before swine, sadly.
Oh, and the dealer cabal hasn't a clue what the LS can do or the market for which it was designed. They're selling it like a smaller Town Car, so now Lincoln is going to accommodate them with. . .you guessed it. . .a much less expensive smaller Town Car (than the LS).
Don't be surprised if it sells at least as well as the LS. The few hundred of us who bought into the LS because it was a serious competitor to real sports sedans are less than irrelevant when compared to the hundreds of thousands of LS drivers who couldn't tell you (and don't care) which pair of wheels drive the car.
RIP.
When my LS packs up, Infiniti, BMW or Cadillac will get my business. Lincoln made it quite clear several years ago, when they discontinued the manual transmission, that they couldn't care less if the door hit me on the way out.
I hate to agree with Steve (j/k) but he's right. One of our Lincoln engineers told us that Ford is losing money on every LS they sell because:
a) the platform itself is costly without several other vehicles to share the R&D cost b) the platform is not very stiff by today's standards. That's the big reason it wasn't used for the Mustang. The Tbird had to have cross braces behind the front seats just to make it halfway decent so the 4 seat mustang convertible wouldn't work. c) the corporate modular V8s won't fit (on the production line) and it costs too much to keep the 3.9L V8 for one model. d) massive rebates (I blame the death of the Continental here which left the LS to fill the void in the lineup which caused dealers to market it as a smaller luxury car alternative to the TC.
Ford's financial crisis back in 2000/2001 caused Lincoln's budget to be cut from $2B to $600K overnight which killed the planned lineup of BMW fighters, and they've never recovered. What Ford and Lincoln need right now are cars that sell so they can get profitable again - then they can go after the big dogs again. The fact that Jag is moving back upmarket should open up some room in the luxury market.
I'm still here. But wasn't able to throw much imput for the past 3 months since I was busy finishing building a house. Although I'm already moved in, and still getting the final furniture arranged...
The LS as I've mentioned before, is one of those best-kept engineering secrets from Ford that unfortunately didn't manifest into other possibilties. Mark 8 was another vehicle on an amazingly sophisticated platform. Although in the case of the LS, Jaguar will benefit from that engineering in the future.
Although from media reports I have been reading (which aren't 100% accurate)...I keep hearing a tone of "Oh it's FWD based, it won't be any good"... and that's not necessarily the case. The platform itself CAN be used for FWD vehicles, but as for Lincoln, it'll be AWD standard with a rear bias. And one of these media outlets already KNOW that, yet the tone they are trying to set is "What doomed Cadillac (FWD) is now going to doom Lincoln".
Previously with the 500/FS/MTG, the media heralded the use of a Volvo platform,because of it's safety benefits. Now they have an issue stating it isn't good enough for Lincoln ? The media wants to see new Lincoln vehicles (not rebadges) they are getting them, yet now the issue lies because it's AWD (which is better overall)?
Heh, it's one of those "damn if you do, damn if you don't" senarios. Although I'll say, it's wwayyyyyy too early to even think of doom and gloom till people have test driven those vehicles.
The new AWD sedans will easily out-handle the LS, in a package that's a bit more comfortable than todays LS. The larger "Flagship" sedan, is a monster of it's own in interior dimensions, but don't let it's trim exterior size fool ya either.
I agree, Ford's marketing team has dropped the ball...then and now with the LS. In fact, there's MANY vehicles they haven't been promoting as they could be. No bragging rights thrown around, they just aren't being very dominantly/aggresive as they could be. But that's a whole other topic I could go on for hours.
“Ford's financial crisis back in 2000/2001 caused Lincoln's budget to be cut from $2B to $600K” - akirby
As an ex-LS driver (had 2 – a Y2K and a 2003) I am also disappointed that Lincoln has decided not to continue down the trail blazed by the LS. Great potential not realized.
I do think the financial cutbacks at Ford \ M-L were an issue here, but I also believe that there were things that could have been done to press onward with some deliberate speed. There was no will left within the Lincoln management and (clearly) no significant pressure from L-M dealers. So we see, for instance, a Lincoln F150, of all things. ( ? ) Too bad. And I have moved on . .
But it seems to me that historically, cutting back on product development is absolutely the WORST thing an automobile manufacturer can do when times are financially tough. Without clearly distinctive product offerings, consumers will NOT beat a path to the dealerships . . If borrowing $$s at high interest rates is required, (sorry) – they need to do it. Given the lead times for product R&D in the industry, waiting for good times to return is simply not realistic. Product improvement must be funded. Period.
And not just Ford \ L-M.
I do NOT mean to (over)simplify this issue. It is both complex and expensive to compete in the automotive world. And bringing a world class platform to market (as the LS was in 1999, IMHO) is difficult - and requires both $$s and determination. Always has been.
And I see GM doing many of the same things – specifically, killing product development when money is tight(er). I expect that this will really return to haunt them in a couple of years, when they still do not have the products they need.
I don't think they killed product development as much as refocused it on their halo vehicles (F150, Mustang, Explorer, Expedition) which had the most profit potential. I'd probably do the same thing .
The other factors were obviously the dealers either not knowing how or not wanting to sell the LS as a performance car (which begs the question - how will they sell the new cars?) and the obvious marketing decision that Jaguar would be the sport/luxury brand competing against BMW et al.
I think the lack of advertising was on purpose. Why spend advertising $$ to sell a car that's losing money? I also think they're trying to close Wixom. TC can be moved to the other plant with the CV and GM.
I think the only potential downside to the volvo platform is that it will be nose heavy due to the transverse engine. Audi has a similar strategy except they use longitudinal engines which helps but doesn't completely solve the problem because the engine has to sit so far forward. They already have V8 engines available from Yamaha and the transverse engine should give them best in class interior room.
Then again I'll be trading my LS for a mustang GT convertible within the next year or two so it's pretty much academic for me. But I do want to see Lincoln succeed. I'd love to own a nice luxury sedan again in a few years.
Well, glad to see the board lighting up with discussion again! :>)
Just a few comments: We all know the LS is not cheap to build. But to think that Ford loses money on every one they make is just not believeable by any stretch. They'd have cancelled it yesterday if that were true. Even if a brand new base V6 sells in the mid 20s, I'm sure there's lots of gravy to go around. ANd the DEW-98 platform has been around now for what, 6 or 7 years and is amortized across 2 (or more?) good-selling vehicles. I just don't believe the losing money premise. They will be losing money though when good customers move on to other car companies who are making vehicles that we want. The platform is not stiff by today's standards? Huh? Sure, any platform is going to need stiffening if it's used for a convertible when it was designed for a sedan. And with over 60K on the clock of my LS and comparing it to the brand new G-35 rental I'm driving (more on that in a minute), I don't see the LS platform as a drawback in any way. Rebates? American companies would have to drop every car and truck line they make if rebates are a problem (and they certainly are). GM is going to 'value-pricing' in 2006 which, as I understand it, means they are lowering the sticker price to be more in line with 'actual selling price'. Ford has yet to announce anything similar. The 3.9 V8 an orphan - OK, perhaps that is a cost factor, I dunno. I do know, however, that at least one LS existed back in '02 with a 4.6L modular V8 in it. Which means it can be done. They want to close Wixom? Sure, why not? They'll be building everything in Mexico or China soon enough anyway. Meanwhile Toyota, Honda even Hyundai are building factories in this country. Hello, UAW, anyone home? So in short, I don't buy all the cost stuff. If they can't make money on a $40,000 LS V8 then they should turn all the factories into museums and go home.
ANT - welcome back, and congrats on the house. You say the new Lincolns will be AWD with rear-wheel bias? That would be the preferred solution. They will out-handle the LS? That's a tall order. If true, perhaps I'll be eating crow. Aw, that's OK, it tastes like chicken! Evrything I've read though says they're FWD with AWD optional. No sense arguing over that until specs are on the table. Here's another question: WHY TWO sedans on the same platform? As you've read, I believe I've seen both of them and I do think they've done one heck of a job on the styling (altho there's one thing I think needs to be changed about the smaller one - the way the roofline curves into the rear doors is way too dramatic for my taste pass that on will ya? :>) but how will they really differentiate the 2 vehicles? If the smaller one is the sporty one, does it get a bigger engine? Then the big one is underpowered, like the situation they've had in the past with Conti/TC engine choices. I just don't get it, ANT. To me the larger one is the new Town Car and the smaller one the Continental. Then they need the DEW-98 LS to fill the LARGE gap between the Conti and the Zephyr. Ford seems to have gotten into a rut of building cars that have questionable raisons d'etre (Blackwood, Freestyle, 500, Aviator) which don't sell well and others which are a generation behind the competition (the minivans) then cancel them and do it again. Now they've built a big F150 Lincoln truck while dropping their Lincoln BMW competitor. Soon, apparently, we're going to see a Lincoln minivan. Oh boy. Going to fill the gap left by the demise of the Olds Silouhette? (The Cadillac of minivans:>) And if the LS goes away, what does that mean for the S-type? Long story short, IMHO nobody at Lincoln has a clue where to take the brand. Daryl Hazel came and went and what did he accomplish? All I ever recall is seeing him hand one of those huge $million dollar checks to Magic Johnson to be Lincoln's spokesmouth. Never heard Magic say anything about a Lincoln though. Now Daryl's been promoted and someone else (who?) is running Lincoln. Meanwhile Caddy has gone past like L is standing still with a line of cars that really does challenge the big boys, even if the styling is polarizing. I recall the beautiful Mark X hardtop/convertible concept that was DOA according to Lincoln brass. Meanwhile Caddy now has that beautiful XLR roadster (I've seen as many of them on the road as I've seen Freestyles.) and Lincoln is developing a minivan. OK, I'm repeating myself now so I should wrap this up. Like I said, my LS is in the shop with $3500 and counting worth of rear end damage. I got a Mazda 6 for a rental for one day and that was enough. That is NOT a car I want to drive. Now I have an Infiniti G-35. My mini-comparison to my V6 manual LS - the G-35 is FAST. Really fast. And it outhandles my LS, no doubt. The interior is very nice, though smaller than the LS by a skosh and a half. The leather is much softer than my LS's. It lacks some bells like power tilt/telescope, easy in-out, auto-on headlights etc. It looks to have aluminum suspension, but I dunno for sure. The ride is definitely inferior to the LS, even the sport package LS. Much too harsh and jouncy. Overall I think the LS V8 is a superior vehicle, though it should be for about $8K more. I like the G-35. My wife likes it too. But I'm looking forward to getting my LS back. If only it had about 250-260HP, it would be a near-perfect car. I don't think I would buy a G-35 because of the ride. OK, George out.
“I think the only potential downside to the volvo platform is that it will be nose heavy due to the transverse engine. Audi has a similar strategy” - akirby
Well, I have driven several Audis, and owned an AWD Passat (W8 = 8 cylinder) and I think there are actually 2 downsides in 1 here. I was close to buying an Audi S4 at one point.
The weight distribution issue is certainly one downside. The other (for me, living where I do now) is the added weight (and cost and complexity) of any current AWD system. While AWD has undeniable advantages under certain, very specific conditions, I am not excited about having to live with the other aspects all the time, in order to benefit when I encounter those (rare, given where I live) specific conditions.
If I lived in central New England (where I lived for many years, and where I thought I would likely return, due to relatives’ health issues) the compromises might very well make sense. That was a primary consideration in my purchase of the Passat. Situations have changed for me since then.
I’d still prefer a RWD platform to an AWD platform with the LS’s size and weight and with a near 50 / 50 weight distribution – and (oh) 350+ HP / TQ . . .
If only . . .
I did come kinda close to purchasing a Jag S-Type R late last year. Only issue was actual transaction cost. About $3K or $4K difference ask vs. offer = close to a deal on the Sales Manager’s “Demo”.
If that drivetrain had been made available on an ’05 LS, I would absolutely still be driving an LS. The fact that the supercharged Jag motor & 6 speed automatic trans. were never made available in the LS = A triumph of Marketing over Logic. To me. And (since I bought 2 LS-s) I think one could certainly argue that I am in the LS’s target market.
But I could be wrong. Again.
And it is pretty clear that nothing any of us write here matters anymore so far as Lincoln listening and understanding. As it once did (sigh) . . . - Ray Still a bit annoyed (I suppose) at what “could have been” . .
The 4.6L fits in the engine bay but can't be installed from underneath - the lower control arm blocks it, so it can't be installed on a normal production line. That was one of the reasons they chose not to use it for the mustang. And I'm sure that the 4.6L is much cheaper to produce given the high production volume.
I'm sure they can make money on a $40K LS V8 but they're selling for $35K or less. If the profit margin on SUVs is $10K and cars are a lot less, it's not hard to imagine losing money on a car with $5K rebates. Remember, the plans were for several models off the dew98 platform which would spread the R&D costs, but that didn't happen.
Why would they keep building it if it loses money? They can't just shut down the plant right away like any normal business would do (thanks, UAW). And dealers need something to sell. Without the LS they'd have ONE car - the TC. The dealer still makes money even if the factory is losing money. So basically they're subsidizing the factory workers and dealers.
Jag has already modified it's DEW98 platform for the new XJ, plus they're selling Stypes worldwide (7 different models). So they're recovering their R&D costs. The Stype is also much more expensive than the LS and they don't have $5K rebates.
The new Lincolns will be AWD STANDARD - not sure where everybody keeps getting the optional part unless it's from the Zephyr which will have optional AWD. But for Lincoln's 2 new larger sedans it will be standard - guaranteed.
I definitely believe that marketing made a conscious decision to keep the LS out of S-type territory performance-wise, otherwise they could have easily done a supercharged version.
You can have 2 sedans co-exist next to each other built ont he same platform. They are just geared, and their driving dynamics will differ....More more sophisticated in it's delivery, smoothness, etc. Another, a bit sportier set-up in it's handling. The sizes, weight distribution, etc. will differ which will allow one to be sportier than anotherr. Although by no means, underpowered in any sense.
The LS will be dropped because it just simply doesnt' have a future. Ford isn't making money on it, just as Chevy didn't make money (and lost) with the Cavalier, just to help them with CAFE numbers. And or in this case, if it's paid for and amortized, so it's kept as a stop gap. There's some vehicle you keep for many reasons, the LS is one of them. And a main one, to keep the factory workers working. Many decisions are made reflecting that. Either which way, the workers get paid if they have a product to build or not, so might as well give them something to build even though your not making much off of it.
The S-type continues it's life cycle mainly because it's the XJ shared basic architecture with it. Next S-type will have a sportier future actually, while the X-Type is still being planned out. Jaguars biggest hurdle at the moment is to become profittable. Unfortunately they need to take bigger risks, styling being one of them. And it's as this moment the LS will be dropped.
The Lincoln "people mover" is a copy of what Ford will receive as well. Think Fairlane concept, idea. Dont' dare call it a minivan, hehe.
Caddy is on a different mission, which Lincoln almost followed. But Ford has Jaguar, they don't need to go upmarket. GM didn't have anyone, hence, they are pushing Caddilac upmarket. SO all we can compare is probably history they used to share against each other, but nothing more. Jac Nasser wanted to take Lincoln internationally with numerous vehicles designed for other markets. A novel idea but he lost focus on his core products, and the rest is history as we are living it.
I've test driven the Mazda6 numerous times in numerous different situations. If it's the base 4, well...it's to be expected. Although the 6 cylinder version handles extremely well for a FWD vehicle. And to think, I'm anti-FWD for my own uses, although to me in my opinion, handles very admirably and within the limits of what 99% of people will ever discover. Although don't let that deter you over the Zephyr. The suspension tuning is different amongst the F/M/Z vehicles. The Zephyr won't be an LS replacement (n drivability and handling)...the Zephyr will be more, Es330 like, but with a touch of soul and excitement when tossed (even if it's rarely). More of a Dr.Jekyl and Mr. Hyde senario.
It is pitiful that a car as great as the LS is leaving us. I must admit that the styling is getting a little boring. The V6 should have been omitted after the first year. I don't think I will ever trade my car off. I love it to much.
Well, it's beginning to feel like deja-vu all over again here, just a few more words ...
Not trying to be argumentative, but ... if the profit margin on SUVs is $10K, then they're losing money on most of those as well. Friends and family is about 10K off sticker for a Nav, I got my Nav for a bit more than 10K off sticker, ... LS'es, like most American cars, have sticker prices which are, basically IMHO, inflated in order to allow dealers etc to squeeze the max amt of dollars from the unsuspecting, uninitiated an/or uninformed customers. This is true to a lesser degree of foreign makes - lesser because their cars actually sell for close to sticker, in most cases. Rebates and soft demand created by years of inferior products hurt the American cars. GM is trying to change this with value pricing and I commend them for it, tho I commend them for little else. In a vein similar to our discussion here, GM dropped their upcoming (epsilon??) RWD chassis which was going to underpin a number of important new cars, due to $$$ problems, which of course could be alleviated if they had some good product to sell and now that is pushed further into the future and the ether. As for the LS being a money loser - I am sorry but I still remain totally unconvinced. First off, this G35 I'm driving DOES have aluminum suspension, it has better leather than the LS (probably more expensive interior materials all round) and it stickers for within $1000 of a similarly equipped LS V6. Is Infiniti losing money too? (Yes, I understand that the UAW is a big anvil around Ford's neck that Infiniti is free of. For the sake of argument, if Ford moved mfg of the LS to Mexico, what would that do for profit?) I had forgotten about the X-type and the T-Bird (and others? ) built on the DEW-98. Yeah, the TBird is another example of Ford's marketing genius and is going away which of course makes it easier to dumo the LS. But DEW was to be used on the Mustang. And it should have been scheduled for a NICE Cougar and who knows what else. Imagine what a nice ceomplement of RWD performance/handling vehicles Ford could have produced if they'd proceeded with DEW-98 and it's -Lite brother. But no. They're producing a new Mustang with 1950s technology suspension, AFAIK. I've driven lots of live-axle Mustangs and similar. No thanks. Even this admitedly nice take on the Mustang would leave me reaching for the exit door the first time I experienced axle-hop goin round a corner. And the argument that Ford is building the LS just to keep the UAW workers doing something??????? Come on, do I look like I just fell off a turnip truck? (Rhetorical:>) Scenario A: Build a car and ship $1000 with each one just to workers working who would otherwise get paid anyway even if they didn't work. Business bottom line: Sell 50,000 of these cars a year, loss = 50 million dollars, pinky extended to lips. Scenario B: Don't build the car, let the workers watch Oprah. Bottom line: No $$$ lost. Scenario C: like B but sell the plant and the land. Bottom line 50 million profit.
So please enough with the 'they're losing money on each one'. There's NO WAY.
(BTW, Allen, I am quite relaxed :>)
And I definitely agree with Ray about AWD. I've got that on my Navigator and my old Cherokee. Well, actually I have 4WD on both which, IMHO, is superior to AWD but I digress. I wouldn't have them any other way. (That people actually buy Grand Cherokees with 2WD boggles my mind - digression again sorry). But I drive those vehicles to the snow and off-road. Here in sunny California, I don't want or need AWD on my daily driver. It would be useful < 1% of the time. The rest of the time it's an added expense, added weight and added cost to repair. (Wait til Consumer Reports publishes frequency of repair records for Lincolns with AWD!!! Cadillac will look like Toyota by comparison.) Fine, Lincoln could bring an AWD sedan to the party, but to give up what you've already got in one of the best RWDers out there? Yes, AWD will be nice in New England and the upper midwest. The rest of the country don't want it or need it.
Lastly, ANT: As I've said, I believe I've seen both of the new sedans and am partly writing from that perpective. Of course, I could be wrong (heaven forbid!) I have thought it is possible that I saw 2 possible versions of one of the cars. I dunno. But they seemed a bit too different for that. One was, I'd guess, a foot or more longer and somewhat wider than the other. And the smaller of the 2 guessing again about the same larger than the LS. It was hard not having the LS there to compare but both were bigger than the M45 that was there and that's about same as LS? (BTW, ANT- I am not asking and I do not want you to verify or comment on my speculations about what I saw - don't wanna get u in hot water. ) Certainly it's possible to tune each one differently etc. Course they already have a car that's pretty well tuned differently (the LS!) Put some new sheetmetal on that and - voila! Sorry, repeat mode off again.
You must agree, ANT, without revealing wheelbase dimensions, that there'sll be a huge gap between the Zephyr and the smaller of these new vehicles. Why?
Lincoln version of the Fairlane concept? Same question only louder - WHY? Is it going to be a woody? A black-woody? (Sorry, couldn't help it). Call it what you will, sounds like a minivan to me.
Ford thinks the Zephyr will be ES330 like? Geez, the LS didn't even measure up to that car, interior wise mainly, as for luxury. But I need to back off for now as I haven't seen a Z except in a few pictures and those have different tail and dash treatments so I really don't know what to expect. Except it better be a whole lot different than the Mazda 6. Mine had a small V6 and a spoiler and nice wheels. I actually had some boy racers pull up beside in their Civic with the 3 inch tailpipe and make some noises. They must not understand if they wanted me to race them in that. Finally, the Zephyr is going to cost appx what the LS V6 now costs. Yet the LS V6 is MUCH more expensive to make, being larger, having that diamond-plated DEW-98 undercarriage and being made by our friends the UAW, as opposed to being made in Mexico. So if Ford sells enough Z's with their infherent profit, that could more than cover the losses of keeping the ls, eh? :>)
The $10K profit is for the factory based on final dealer price, not MSRP. The only thing that lowers that profit is factory rebates and dealer cash, so as long as those are no more than $5K they're still making $5K profit.
It's not just the cost of the car itself - you have to factor in the R&D costs of a brand new platform. That's why the Panther cars (crown vic, grand marquis and town car) were Ford's most profitable cars (maybe still are) - because the R&D was paid for years ago. Your G35 has a lot of siblings to absorb the R&D costs. Not to mention a very cheap interior (IMO).
You said X-type but I think you meant S-type.
Why didn't they use DEW98 for the mustang? It cost too much, wasn't stiff enough and the independent front suspension wouldn't allow use of the 4.6L V8. The SN197 platform is cheaper and stiffer and possibly better than the DEW98 even with struts up front. Chassis technology has come a long way in the last 7 years. Even the Lincoln suspension engineers admit that our beloved DEW98 has a lot of flaws.
Have you actually driven a 2005 mustang with that 1950's technology rear axle? Test drivers reported no axle hop going around corners. In fact they actually had to look under the car to make sure there wasn't an IRS in there. It's that good. You don't hear people complaining about front struts on a BMW, do you? Because they've tuned the heck out of them. Same with the mustang. And there's no wheel hop on acceleration like the CTS-V which has a very modern IRS. Don't know it until you try it.
DEW-98 not perfect? What is? U really thing the live-axle Mustang platform >= DEW-98? C'mon, have some turnips! The G35 has no more siblings than DEW-98. If it's interior is cheap, the LS' is el-cheapo. Nope, haven't driven a new Mustang. Drove the previous generation and it was a POS. Brand new and the dashboard was completely falling apart.
I guess I'm convinced now. FWD and live rear axle is the way to go.
I agree, no coffee or coke LOL but it's good your sharing your passion over the vehicle. I myself turn red discussing the topic because Ford has dropped the ball on a good vehicle.
"And the argument that Ford is building the LS just to keep the UAW workers doing something??????? Come on, do I look like I just fell off a turnip truck? (Rhetorical:>)"
They get 97% of their paycheck, EVEN if they aren't building anything and the factory is idle. The UAW has the american manufacturer's by the neck (to say it lightly). And then people are wondering why some models are being built in Mexico. That's one main reason it's being kept alive.
Why a Lincoln "people mover"... there's actually a market for it... Don't think minivan, just think "people mover". The research is out there, which is obviously why it's being designed. Now with the increased cost in gas getting higher daily, not everyone might want a Navigator, hence...the "people mover". New Aviator will be out by then as well, selling well...
The old mustang platform and new SN197 are like night and day. There's no comparison. It's that good. It's also considerably cheaper.
I sat in a G35 and the current LS and they LS interior, IMO, is much nicer. And IIRC the G35 sedan shares it's platform with the G35 coupe, Murano, FX-35, FX-45 and 350Z (at least).
I think we'd all prefer to see a new, RWD updated dew98 with 3 different size sedans, a small coupe and convertible and maybe a roadster, but it ain't happening.
Three primary things p*** upset me about my LS "experience:"
1) The elimination of the manual transmission at the same time the engine (VVT) and many other things were improved significantly. Instead of adding the manual to the V8, it was eliminated completely. All the better to deal with the mind-numbed Lincoln-driving masses.
2) The gutting/elimination of the group of passionate car people who were responsible for the LS's development and early years. This happened at about the same time FoMoCo couldn't rub two dimes together, so, as in most corporate cultures, the good people went where the money was, voluntarily or otherwise.
3) The dealers -- the "we don't no stinkin' sports sedan" dealers.
The car is soon to be deader than Elvis (look at the calendar). The concept for which it was developed, along with the team that did it, have been for years.
So my point was pay them the 97% and close the door on the factory. After all, they lose money on every car, right?
I've felt it important to buy "American" cars. I'm losing that feeling. Why? Jacques "the racist" Nasser, the UAW - their lazy attitude AND their blind lock-step support of the WRONG political candidates every time (I won't say which), their closing of their parking lots to US Marine recruiters (because some of those marines had bumper stickers supporting the non-UAW endorsed candidate), and finally because of the management of these "American" companies in the final analysis cares not a whit about the red white and blue but rather only cares about the green.
"Why a Lincoln "people mover"... there's actually a market for it... Don't think minivan, just think "people mover". The research is out there, which is obviously why it's being designed. Now with the increased cost in gas getting higher daily, not everyone might want a Navigator, hence...the "people mover". New Aviator will be out by then as well, selling well... "
I can't think "people mover" because to me that means a moving walkway at the airport or an escalator. Tell Lincoln to come up with a better descriptor will ya?
So their research says I want a "people mover" but I don't want a luxo RWD sport sedan with optional manual transmission? Hmmm. Well, at least Caddy, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Volvo, Saab, Infiniti, Lexus, .... have researchers and management that actually LISTEN to their customers, and apparently Lincoln's (former) customers as well. (Just had a latte :>)
How about a Navigator with a technologically advanced engine management system which shuts down 2 or 4 cylinders when not needed thus improving gas mileage? If Ford has not heard of this, have them talk to Jeep or Cadillac. (I love my Navigator except at gas-up time. I don't want a people mover, thanks anyway.)
You assume the new Aviator will be selling well? What kind of gas mileage does it get? Lexus will have a hybrid SUV Aviator competitor soon. How is Aviator going to compete/respond to that? Not only that, but the Aviator name is not exactly synonomous with reliable transportation, or hasn't Lincoln kept up with the problem reports? I have. I darn near bought one, but got the Nav instead (which is the best SUV out there by a long shot, IMHO) But the Avi? It runs and handles with the best, but it has the LS HVAC system (and you all know how I feel about that :>) and a floor heater vent which blows directly on ones right leg and that ain't cool. But I digress again.
"The old mustang platform and new SN197 are like night and day. There's no comparison. It's that good. It's also considerably cheaper."
I will have to take your word on both of these points. Though it does sound a little like snake oil.
"I sat in a G35 and the current LS and they LS interior, IMO, is much nicer. And IIRC the G35 sedan shares it's platform with the G35 coupe, Murano, FX-35, FX-45 and 350Z (at least). "
I admit I haven't been in an LS since we all saw the 2003s in Irvine. Been a while. I know they're much improved over mine, what with the elec parking brake, huge center console, satin-nickel etc. The seats are probably better than the 2001 leather too I'd guess. So I'll concede this point. The G35 is pretty sporty inside, has great seats and the door panels and switchgear are nicer than my '01. The G35 shares it's platform with all those you mentioned except the Murano. (It's a FWD platform.) The rest are RWD and some have AWD optional.
"I think we'd all prefer to see a new, RWD updated dew98 with 3 different size sedans, a small coupe and convertible and maybe a roadster, but it ain't happening. "
OK, I'll agree with this. Now, given cost constraints etc would you prefer, or do you think customers would prefer this, let me get specific: Zephyr (FWD/AWD opt); LS(RWD) with new sheet metal; 'New' D3 flagship sedan(FWD/AWD optional - give us a choice), Town Car (the big new D3 one not the Panther platform - that's gotta go); new Aviator, Navigator, Mark X-like roadster convertible. -OR- Zephyr, new D3 sedan #1, new D3 sedan #2, same old Panther Town car, new Aviator, Navigator, Pickup truck, People Mover.
Am I crazy or should Lincoln be a luxury-sport car line with a crossover and a big SUV (as long as the market for those holds) or is Lincoln a nameplate to be attached to most Ford products along with a waterfall grille and power seats with memory? Lincoln Pickup truck? Lincoln People Mover? 1960's technology flagship sedan?
-or- Competes with the best RWD performance sedan Conv't roadster to compete with XLR, Lexus, etc
There's only so many $$$s to go round, agreed. I'd put them into the LS and the Mark X myself. Let Ford have the pickups and the people movers ferchrissake.
"The elimination of the manual transmission at the same time the engine (VVT)"
I remember sitting thru Jonathon's presentation about the '03 LSes back in '02 at Irvine. Wow! I thought the V6 is up to 235 HP or so. That's a pretty good jump from my 210. The Getrag will be even more fun now. And I waited and waited for JC to mention the manual and he didn't and I asked him and he had 'no comment' and I knew the blue hairs had won.
"The dealers -- the "we don't no stinkin' sports sedan" dealers"
-BINGO. I wonder how Caddy convinced their dealers to go along with the plan?
OK, the caffeine has worn off. TIme to hop in my Infiniti and blow the doors off any Lincoln people movers I see on the way over the mountain back home :>)
As strange as it might seem, I put a lot of "something" into going to American iron back in '00. I bought into the original concept, big-time. I paid retail (well, not really . . . a few percent over invoice), but not the current $2-10K rebate deals.
I learned a few years later that my faith was badly misplaced. Fool me once. . .
I'm older now. . .and a bit wiser.
Infiniti. . .BMW. . .Cadillac. These are my choices (only because Audi ****canned the manual).
Ain't life grand? Well, it is, actually. I'm still driving the LS, and the vehicle that will replace it will be far better. What's not to like?
But they can't just close the plant because the UAW contract won't let them until next year or the year after! Isn't that nice? Plus, they're still building the TC which is profitable.
I don't blame Lincoln for the demise of the manual - I blame consumers who don't want them and dealers who don't want to sell them. The ONLY reason the LS got a manual to start with was because it would be sold overseas and that's a requirement in Europe. Take away European sales and even BMW would have a hard time justifying a manual here in the states. Same for Infiniti and Japanese sales.
Lincoln has been damaged by Jag and Volvo and a lack of marketing direction including high management turnover plus a dearth of new car products. They need a lot of new cars quickly and as cheaply as possible. So they decided to go AWD and the most economical choice of platforms was Volvo. Same with the Mazda6 platforms for the Zephyr/Milan/Fusion. I believe now that Jag has gone upmarket and they have these new models either in production or planned that they can start to concentrate on more niche products and more performance oriented vehicles. It takes a lot of money to develop a new RWD platform (and the jury is still out on whether Cadillac will ever recover what they've spent on R&D and advertising).
"(and the jury is still out on whether Cadillac will ever recover what they've spent on R&D and advertising)."
I wondered about that, akirby... Still, I'm glad they did it - I don't love the style of the new Caddys, especially inside, but they had to do something, because what they had was embarrasing for the past 20 years.
Ford can't do that for Lincoln, which pains me, because there is a ton of heritage in the brand - but with Jag, Land Rover & Volvo, they frankly don't need Lincoln...
R&D on the LS is a sunk cost. Ford has spent that money whether or not they continue to produce the LS. The decision to produce the LS should not be based on sunk costs.
I will postulate that the ‘losing money one each LS sold’ is correct. I will ** guess ** that the loss is roughly 10%.
If average invoice \ sell to dealer transaction is $30K (could certainly be off here - in either direction, but I expect that this is the order of magnitude) the loss would be $3,000 per LS.
With sales of 20,000 units per year (likely a bit high, now) that is a loss of $60,000,000 per year on the LS. (gulp) On a revenue stream of $600,000,000
Now – some speculation about the loss associated with closing down LS production:
Clearly, the cost of the UAW remains large – some high percentage of current. We can assume that labor = 15% to 20% of the cost to build. (Source = UPI)
The cost of materials (tires, etc.) and sub-assemblies drops to $0.
The cost of “running the plant” (electricity, indirect labor [not assembly: custodial, machine repair & maint., for examples],etc.) would drop substantially, but not to $0. Insurance on the facility might drop, for example, with no ‘dangerous’ assembly activity – but again would not even approach $0.
The cost of any mortgage \ loan on the physical plant (building and internal equipment, etc.) would continue to run.
So – the cost might drop to 50% of current – say $300,000,000. And the revenue stream drops to – (this one is easy) exactly $0.
So – the loss = umm, $300,000,000 per year. (Could be as low as $200M, could be $400M, I suppose. Specific numbers for a specific model and assembly plant are not likely to be released by Manufacturers.)
But any of these numbers look like a much larger loss than $60,000,000 / year.
And the ‘sell the plant’ suggestion? Well, what exactly is the market for a plant (like Wixom) that is designed quite specifically to produce automobiles?
Likely not good, today . . .
Like most complex problems, there are typically many ‘simple’ solutions – that are unworkable or cause equal (or greater) problems. And I freely admit that this is oversimplified.
Just my (free) analysis.
- Ray Happy to have my problems, and not Ford’s – or GM’s . .
Let's see. The guys at Ford L/M sit around and say...'Let's build a car that we can sell and NOT make money. Let's do this and say that we have a 'world' car that would have an international market.(more money lost). We can design /research and spend all of this money and then promote and market it. We know what it will cost before we start our manufacturing and sales effort. We will promote it for 2 1/2 years and then pull the plug and let go of the great sales team. We will establish the 'best' american made driving vehicle ' and then we will say that we are not making any money and close it down and let it die slowly.. It inspires me to buy another car from this type of company.( It seems to me that costs etc. are known in advance, more or less, and a good company knows this). They just don't get it. I know that my next car will be with a company who builds a good car, promotes it, improves it and stays the course. Lexus, Acura etc.
". We know what it will cost before we start our manufacturing and sales effort. We will promote it for 2 1/2 years and then pull the plug and let go of the great sales team"
The vehicle was "pulled" because it was a vehicle from the Jac Nasser era that required other parts of the plan to be implemented for the vehicle to have continued it's life cycle for many years to come. At the time it was introduced, the plan was to have competitive vehicles that work in an international market. Sharing parts with Jaguars. After Jac Nasser was ousted, then plans change (since the company was losing money)... a realization that having 2 upper echelon brands (Linc, Jag) would not be monetarily feasable.
The plan now is, to design/build/manufacturer luxury vehicles at certain pricepoints that define american luxury.
Other manufacturer's have the same issue with some of their vehicles, for whatever X, X, X, reasons.
With all respect. The company was losing money with Nasser and the company is losing money now. The new cars ,as I see them, are dull and they do not compete very well in their class. It's hard to believe that Nasser is to blame for the present state of affairs. It might just be that he was right and the present execution of making dull, the press view, interchangeable parts cars, that aren't selling well, cause they can not match or exceed the competition, is not working. Time will tell if you can sell cars by advertising alone. When my LS was in the shop, the dealer took me for a ride in the Montego. My comment was, 'if I wanted a Volvo it would be OK'. It did not hold a candle to the LS. It did have more room and thats the best I can say. Ford had a niche and blew it. They didn't even try to capitalize on the LS following. This was my first American car in nearly 40 years . It is a car that exceeded my expectations. As far as I am concerned Ford L/M blew it. Does a quality product have to discount with we are all friends and family discounts. Think Lexus, Acura,MB, BMW. Sure some companies make mistakes.... but very few successful companies squander their' loyal following' assets to make a lessor product. My limited experience tells me that The LS was a good car with classic styling. The company should find a way not to lose this market by trying to sell a car that just don't cut the mustard. So far the market has spoken and sales are, in general down. ......I do rant don't I. ... The LS buyer is not the Jag buyer....therefore sharing parts etc. would not have competed and would result in keeping costs down. This is my humble opinion
As ANT tried to point out - the LS was the first of many vehicles from a very big overall plan. Because of the Firestone fiasco Lincoln's budget was cut by $1.4B - overnight. That effectively killed the entire program - you can't do something like that on a shoestring. Look at how much Cadillac has spent and it's questionable whether they'll ever recover their costs. The only point I'll agree with you on is not letting Lincoln compete with Jaguar - I agree they are 2 different markets even at similar price points.
As for the smart business move - exciting performance cars are a niche market. The bread and butter is still in "transportation appliances" like the 500/Montego. How else can you explain Accord and Camry (and Taurus a few years back) selling 400K units per year?
Just because a company fails to provide/serve the wishes of a specific customer, doesn't mean all their other products fail as well. Concessions had to be made concerning profits. Under the Jac Nasser reign (as we live the proof today) there were very little future products planned with the company philosphy that SUV/Trucks should be the vehicle to concentrate on.
And sometimes you wonder on how feasable some of his plans were. Todays 500 was originally planned as a Taurus replacement, but was later crapped (by current management) when obviously there wasn't a way to price the vehicle at the current Taurus' entry price point.
Decisions made 6 years ago under that management, plagues Ford today. What the newer Ford management has been able to speed up is the delivery of fresher products considering the budget constraints on specific vehicles. And currently, decisions being made on certain products just 2 years ago, are debuting in a year or so with delivery times of 18 months from "start to finish" of a specific vehicle program.
Consolidation of numerous platforms, and invested amortization in the past few years has allowed better quality products to be design/developed/manufactured with lower costs. Instead of taking the thinking of "Lets use a good-enough platform, and luxurify it to pass it as a different vehicle"...moving onto "Let's take a much more advanced/sophisticated platform, and threw the sharing of parts be able to offer it throughout a whole range of vehicles/brands.
As in Fords C1 Architecture (Euro Focus, Volvo S40, C70, Mazda3, next Freelander, etc.). Same as with the D3 architecture (Volvo's P2)...ranging from Volvo, S60, S80, XC70, XC90, 500/Mtgo/FS, Next generation minivans for Ford/Lincoln, 2 Lincoln sedans" etc.
Obviously these changes can't take place overnight... Even the current needs to continue life on it's current platform, long overdue for a change. But again, all depends on the budgets and what is allocated considering the current issues in the economy, UAW, healthcare, fuel prices. By 2008 things will look much healthier overall.
There was an article recently I believe on the Detroit News stating how manufacture's can profit from niche vehicles provided the keep production numbers low to increase demand. Obviously, costs need to be spread out by using components of other vehicles as well. While basic appliances (such as Camry/Accord) do not really profit much. Although all manufacturer's have their reasons for creating certain vehicles. Even GM admitted years ago it would lose over $800 on each Cavalier sold, but didn't care because it would help them with C.A.F.E. credits....
And as there's that reason, there's many reasons why the LS has suffered the fate it has. I'm on my 2nd LS as it is, and the next (I don't wish to call it replacement, but essentially it'll be) is even more sophisticated and designed to handle better. So it's wwaaayyyyy too early to think doom & gloom.
Hi all. I want to change the subject here, though I do have some more to say on the demise of the DEW-98 LS. Maybe later. What I'm interested in now is - does anyone here have experience with or know anyone who has experience with getting their LS rear-ended and then put back together? My issue is that I've got close to $4000 in damage to the rear bumper, trunk, qtr panels and some stuff you can't see from a direct hit in the rear. My concern is - what about the other stuff on the car - suspension, brakes etc? Any chance of damage there? I was pretty much stopped and he was doing about 40 or 50 before he jammed on his brakes about 20 feet behind me so he hit me pretty good, as my back will attest. Immediately, I jammed on my brakes to keep from hitting the guy in front of me. After the body work is done, I plan to have my dealer service dept look the underside over real good. It's gotta go in for the 60,000 mile checkup anyway. So am I being too paranoid? Or are ther things I should get looked at seriously? WHat about the air bags? Do they need to be dbl-checked? I know they should not have gone off in a rear-ender and they didn't. Neither did his, perhaps surprisingly.
Apparently, you've been assigned the task of cleaning up this mess, or at least trying to explain it.
There are a few hundred of us (I could be off by a dozen or two) who bought into the LS concept when it was introduced. I really appreciated the notion that Lincoln was going to engage the rest of the world with the LS (that front bumper tow hook cutout, as well as the manual, were the real deal).
I'd never owned a vehicle built in the U.S. before, but I thought this one was worthy. The fact (at the time) that the LS was going to be marketed world-wide was a big deal to me. Even among the LS faithful (back then), every time I brought up the European marketing thing, I was hit with a "who cares" response.
Well, I did. If the LS could compete in Europe, it would have been something that FoMoCo had never done before. It didn't, & FoMoCo is still as it was before, only worse. The Jag has a pretty miserable reliability reputation. The Ford taxis & police cars are pretty reliable. Aside from little crap & one $800 item, my LS has run fine for 86K miles and over five years.
It's been said that cynics are disappointed idealists. It's true, at least in my case. There is not a more pissed-off LS owner than me, given that the car still runs fine. I was sucked in (at full retail), then blown off. You, or your company, will never recover me. As if. . .
Obviously my opinion matters not a whit, given that the vast (vast, vast, really vast) majority of people who drive Lincolns aren't the people who care about front bumper tow hooks or manual transmissions. The dealers are worse yet.
What's interesting to me is that the FoMoCo managed to repeat history with the LS, as compared to the Merkur. I was unaware of the Murkur fiasco when I bought my LS. Shame on me.
I'm now aware of both. The future Lincoln demographic (assuming there will be one) obviously doesn't involve people who enjoy driving and/or who can read or write (on the web), so it's possibly a winning business model. Good luck.
Include me out.
I was able to visit Dearborn a few months ago and was disappointed that I couldn't feel more a part of what was going on. Drove right by Wixom on the way & on the way back.
I think I was the target demographic for the original LS. It worked. . .once.
Thanks for changing the subject, or trying to anyway. (Not sure it's gonna work). Sorry to hear you were rear-ended so seriously. Sadly, I have some experience with that phenomenon, as my Mustang is STILL in the body shop, the second one, BTW, from a similar condition. I have my doubts as to whether or not this car will ever be any good again - I'll have to wait and see, but they're going to have to try to stretch the car back out to its original length, so that the doors will close again. Currently they're an inch or two conflicted. I'm surprised at how well a car can often be reconstructed so that you wouldn't know it's been injured, even with frame damage. But your best guide will be the feel of the car. When you get your LS back, if it is looser, or rattles or squeaks, it's still somewhat compromised from the original rigidity of the unibody frame. I just don't think your LS or my Mustang is going to be the same again, and will likely sell mine.
Oh, I don't know.....I think pinhead is a little over the top. It's just a car - why get so worked up? I'm not happy with Lincoln cars right now either - though I love their SUVs. So, I'll buy a Jag or an Infiniti.... Whatever.
SO what happens when the next LS debuts and it's better overall than the vehicle it replaces? Are you more perturbed over the fact that the "going international" plan didn't pan out, or that the LS name (well, more about it's spirit) will continue on another vehicle with another name ?
Heyjewel,
After it's all assembled and fixed, I would suggest you drive the vehicle in numerous different road surfaces and look for any rattles/squeaks. Also, at higher speeds and check for any vibration issues. If possible (according to your insurance) I would have the dealership fix it rather than one of the insurer's "qualified auto shops".
Tip for all, Upon rear impact (right at the moment you no longer see a persons hood in the rear view mirror), release your brake pedal so the vehicle bounces, rather than absorb the impact (unless your in an intersection, that can shoot you into the middle of it, or have another vehicle closely in front). That little bit makes a major difference.
SO what happens when the next LS debuts and it's better overall than the vehicle it replaces? Are you more perturbed over the fact that the "going international" plan didn't pan out, or that the LS name (well, more about it's spirit) will continue on another vehicle with another name ? "
Ant, I agree with you completely. Unfortunately there are those out there that are blind to any vehicle that is't RWD and have a manual transmission.
I was going to be a little more subtle than Gary, but we've known Steve (cdnpinhead) a long time and he's very....umm.....passionate about RWD and manual trannies. That's why the European thing was so important and why he likely won't consider the new D3 vehicles no matter how good they are.
I'm hardcore RWD person as well..not manual trannies though, but definately RWD. I will not own/have owned, anything but. Although AWD is next on my list. I considered the S60R prior to my 2nd LS, but it's torque is lowered on automatic models since the transmission can't handle it. But the AWD and CAT suspension were definate pluses that made me look that way. Although the LS triumphed mainly because reliability numbers on the LS where much higher over the S60.
Nasser did a lot to screw up Ford, there's no argument there, although the Firestone disaster did more to unwind him than anything, I think. Still, his vision for Lincoln, putting them in the PAG and making them more in the image of the LS, in various sizes and iterations, made a lot of sense to me. Not everything he started was wrong. If he had been able to complete that initiative, Lincoln would be ahead of Cadillac today, because Cadillac has done what Nasser wanted to do with Lincoln - they started later, but stayed the course, while Lincoln got chopped first in the wallet, then the whole idea was scrapped when Nasser bit the dust. I'm not sure he wasn't on the right track because other than the SUVs, Lincoln is now not in my market with their cars. The Town Car has been suffering from arrested decay since 1998, the LS is too small for me, I need an S-Class sized vehicle. And Lincoln doesn't make one.
There seems to be a lot of feelings as well as facts about this subject. Aside from the fact that I like RWD over FWD, I feel dissapointed by L/M not following through with the premise that an American made car can successfully compete.
The facts speak. The American car makers have had their lunch eaten by imports for the past 30 years. It's just not unions its the Detroit mentality If history is the guide, it looks like it will not be long before we can kiss this American industry good bye.
My business experience taught me 2 rules. 1. Give the customer what it wants or someone else will. Rule 2.....see rule 1.
The Germans, Japanese, Koreans seem to get the message and have increased thier share of the market. Soon the chinese will be a player.
It's just not price..
This board has always been informative...helpful...argumentative and always respectful. Not only a great car...a great board.
Those of us acquainted with the LS, want it to continue in the vein of it's original conception. ANT, who by the way, also owns an LS, and likes them, says the next version will be better than this one - heck, maybe even a manual offered? Not that I care, I'll never buy another manual...but some people here seem to care. Personally, I think it's great to let Ford/Lincoln what we all think here - but personally, I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch NOW, until I see the next version. The current one has been improved and revised consistently over the years, and is better than it was to begin with in most aspects (manual and V-6 are acknowledged to be deleted, for better or worse). It could have been marketed, which would have been great - but the entire Lincoln line has suffered for that.
I say, wait and see if you aren't in a big sweat to buy a replacement now, the next one may be great.
Comments
"Lincoln Plans Two D3 Sedans
Lincoln's future sedan plans could include two vehicles spun from the same D3 platform that has already bred the Ford Five Hundred/Freestyle/Montego trio. Automotive News reports that Lincoln will follow its new Zephyr sedan due this fall with a pair of upscale sedans based on the Volvo/Ford platform that has spawned the Five Hundred sedan. The new sedans would replace the LS rear-driver with a new mid-size sedan from the new platform in 2007. A larger four-door would bow in 2008 and may be dubbed the Continental. Both would be powered by a version of the Yamaha-built 4.4-liter V-8 recently introduced in the Volvo XC90 sedan. Both vehicles would be built in Atlanta alongside a new crossover vehicle coming for Lincoln. "
So if I want to get a new LS it looks like next year will be my last chance.
NVBANKER: On buying a used LS, I owned a 00 8 sport than an 02 8 prem. I sold them than I needed a second car for my wife. I found a 00 6 sport with 50 K about 6 mouths ago. My third LS. I have had no problems. 6 has good power, plus better gas milage. Only difference in power, the V8 from 70 MPH on will out perform the V6. So don't over look the 2000 model if the price is right.
1) LS has been a good seller for them. Can't say that about many of their recent models.
2) The LS is and would be their only serious sports sedan, without even considerig it to be their only modern RWD car. The competition is good and important (CTS, BMW, ...)
3) The LS is sized between the Zephyr and the "2 new sedans" we've been hearing about lately. The Z is small and perhaps nimble, but is FWD/AWD. The 2 new ones (I have seen them at a consumer input survey) are both bigger than the LS. I'd say substantially bigger. They're FWD/AWD as well so the only RWD Lincoln will have is the Town Car (if they keep it) and that competes against only horse-driven carriages I think.
4) Lincoln will be abandoning the nimble Luxo-Sport RWD market totally.
5) Their new cars will be competing against Audi, Volvo, Mercury and Ford as I see it. Who else is doing FWD/AWD cars?
6) The Z is way overpriced at $30K to start. Course without the LS as a competitive balance, Ford can try to squeeze $30 to 40K for their little gussied-up Mazda 6. Were the LS still available, the Z would need to be priced at $26K or so, which is probably where it should be.
7) I had the experience of driving a Mazda 6 last week for a day. My LS was rear-ended to the tune of $3500 and I needed a rental. Ins covered the Mazda. I tried it, took it back the next day and paid extra for an Infiniti G-35. The Mazda 6 was barely passable. I wonder how much better the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr can/will be?
8) The 2 new sedans are beautiful, no doubt - take my word for it. But they will not be anything like the LS. Size alone will prohibit that. FWD puts the final nail in.
So I guess I'm pretty bugged that Lincoln has taken a car that was proclaimed "the best American sedan we've ever tested" by Consumer Reports in 2000, let it languish and finally killed it off in favor of warmed-over Mazdas made in Mexico and stretched Volvos with a Yamaha engine no less.
I must admit, I don't see the logic in it. I seriously doubt there'll be more than a dozen LS owners looking at or buying any of these 3 cars. So Lincoln will have squandered all the good will they built up with us and off we'll go somewhere else and so who are their potential customers? Former Continental owners? OK, maybe, assuming many are still above ground. Who else? Montego buyers who want more luxo-trappings? Sure, assuming there are any of the former. How long have the 500/Montego twins been on sale now? I've seen a total of 3 on the road w/actual plates on them.
I guess this is the future of Lincoln then. FWD/AWD luxo-barges AND, lest I forget, Lincoln brass is also designing a "people-mover vehicle", AKA a minivan. The perfect addition to this lineup, wouldn't you say?
However, the LS costs more than it can be sold for. That high-zoot suspension with all the aluminum and other goodies doesn't come cheap. Battery in the trunk (long large-gauge copper wires), aluminum hood & front fenders. That 52/48 (mine's a 6) front/rear weight distribution definitely costs, both in non-recurring engineering & recurring cost in each vehicle. All pearls before swine, sadly.
Oh, and the dealer cabal hasn't a clue what the LS can do or the market for which it was designed. They're selling it like a smaller Town Car, so now Lincoln is going to accommodate them with. . .you guessed it. . .a much less expensive smaller Town Car (than the LS).
Don't be surprised if it sells at least as well as the LS. The few hundred of us who bought into the LS because it was a serious competitor to real sports sedans are less than irrelevant when compared to the hundreds of thousands of LS drivers who couldn't tell you (and don't care) which pair of wheels drive the car.
RIP.
When my LS packs up, Infiniti, BMW or Cadillac will get my business. Lincoln made it quite clear several years ago, when they discontinued the manual transmission, that they couldn't care less if the door hit me on the way out.
a) the platform itself is costly without several other vehicles to share the R&D cost
b) the platform is not very stiff by today's standards. That's the big reason it wasn't used for the Mustang. The Tbird had to have cross braces behind the front seats just to make it halfway decent so the 4 seat mustang convertible wouldn't work.
c) the corporate modular V8s won't fit (on the production line) and it costs too much to keep the 3.9L V8 for one model.
d) massive rebates (I blame the death of the Continental here which left the LS to fill the void in the lineup which caused dealers to market it as a smaller luxury car alternative to the TC.
Ford's financial crisis back in 2000/2001 caused Lincoln's budget to be cut from $2B to $600K overnight which killed the planned lineup of BMW fighters, and they've never recovered. What Ford and Lincoln need right now are cars that sell so they can get profitable again - then they can go after the big dogs again. The fact that Jag is moving back upmarket should open up some room in the luxury market.
The LS as I've mentioned before, is one of those best-kept engineering secrets from Ford that unfortunately didn't manifest into other possibilties. Mark 8 was another vehicle on an amazingly sophisticated platform. Although in the case of the LS, Jaguar will benefit from that engineering in the future.
Although from media reports I have been reading (which aren't 100% accurate)...I keep hearing a tone of "Oh it's FWD based, it won't be any good"... and that's not necessarily the case. The platform itself CAN be used for FWD vehicles, but as for Lincoln, it'll be AWD standard with a rear bias. And one of these media outlets already KNOW that, yet the tone they are trying to set is "What doomed Cadillac (FWD) is now going to doom Lincoln".
Previously with the 500/FS/MTG, the media heralded the use of a Volvo platform,because of it's safety benefits. Now they have an issue stating it isn't good enough for Lincoln ? The media wants to see new Lincoln vehicles (not rebadges) they are getting them, yet now the issue lies because it's AWD (which is better overall)?
Heh, it's one of those "damn if you do, damn if you don't" senarios. Although I'll say, it's wwayyyyyy too early to even think of doom and gloom till people have test driven those vehicles.
The new AWD sedans will easily out-handle the LS, in a package that's a bit more comfortable than todays LS. The larger "Flagship" sedan, is a monster of it's own in interior dimensions, but don't let it's trim exterior size fool ya either.
I agree, Ford's marketing team has dropped the ball...then and now with the LS. In fact, there's MANY vehicles they haven't been promoting as they could be. No bragging rights thrown around, they just aren't being very dominantly/aggresive as they could be. But that's a whole other topic I could go on for hours.
As an ex-LS driver (had 2 – a Y2K and a 2003) I am also disappointed that Lincoln has decided not to continue down the trail blazed by the LS. Great potential not realized.
I do think the financial cutbacks at Ford \ M-L were an issue here, but I also believe that there were things that could have been done to press onward with some deliberate speed. There was no will left within the Lincoln management and (clearly) no significant pressure from L-M dealers. So we see, for instance, a Lincoln F150, of all things. ( ? ) Too bad. And I have moved on . .
But it seems to me that historically, cutting back on product development is absolutely the WORST thing an automobile manufacturer can do when times are financially tough. Without clearly distinctive product offerings, consumers will NOT beat a path to the dealerships . . If borrowing $$s at high interest rates is required, (sorry) – they need to do it. Given the lead times for product R&D in the industry, waiting for good times to return is simply not realistic. Product improvement must be funded. Period.
And not just Ford \ L-M.
I do NOT mean to (over)simplify this issue. It is both complex and expensive to compete in the automotive world. And bringing a world class platform to market (as the LS was in 1999, IMHO) is difficult - and requires both $$s and determination. Always has been.
And I see GM doing many of the same things – specifically, killing product development when money is tight(er). I expect that this will really return to haunt them in a couple of years, when they still do not have the products they need.
- Ray
Moving on . .
The other factors were obviously the dealers either not knowing how or not wanting to sell the LS as a performance car (which begs the question - how will they sell the new cars?) and the obvious marketing decision that Jaguar would be the sport/luxury brand competing against BMW et al.
I think the lack of advertising was on purpose. Why spend advertising $$ to sell a car that's losing money? I also think they're trying to close Wixom. TC can be moved to the other plant with the CV and GM.
I think the only potential downside to the volvo platform is that it will be nose heavy due to the transverse engine. Audi has a similar strategy except they use longitudinal engines which helps but doesn't completely solve the problem because the engine has to sit so far forward. They already have V8 engines available from Yamaha and the transverse engine should give them best in class interior room.
Then again I'll be trading my LS for a mustang GT convertible within the next year or two so it's pretty much academic for me. But I do want to see Lincoln succeed. I'd love to own a nice luxury sedan again in a few years.
Just a few comments: We all know the LS is not cheap to build. But to think that Ford loses money on every one they make is just not believeable by any stretch. They'd have cancelled it yesterday if that were true. Even if a brand new base V6 sells in the mid 20s, I'm sure there's lots of gravy to go around. ANd the DEW-98 platform has been around now for what, 6 or 7 years and is amortized across 2 (or more?) good-selling vehicles. I just don't believe the losing money premise. They will be losing money though when good customers move on to other car companies who are making vehicles that we want.
The platform is not stiff by today's standards? Huh? Sure, any platform is going to need stiffening if it's used for a convertible when it was designed for a sedan. And with over 60K on the clock of my LS and comparing it to the brand new G-35 rental I'm driving (more on that in a minute), I don't see the LS platform as a drawback in any way.
Rebates? American companies would have to drop every car and truck line they make if rebates are a problem (and they certainly are). GM is going to 'value-pricing' in 2006 which, as I understand it, means they are lowering the sticker price to be more in line with 'actual selling price'. Ford has yet to announce anything similar.
The 3.9 V8 an orphan - OK, perhaps that is a cost factor, I dunno. I do know, however, that at least one LS existed back in '02 with a 4.6L modular V8 in it. Which means it can be done.
They want to close Wixom? Sure, why not? They'll be building everything in Mexico or China soon enough anyway. Meanwhile Toyota, Honda even Hyundai are building factories in this country. Hello, UAW, anyone home?
So in short, I don't buy all the cost stuff. If they can't make money on a $40,000 LS V8 then they should turn all the factories into museums and go home.
ANT - welcome back, and congrats on the house. You say the new Lincolns will be AWD with rear-wheel bias? That would be the preferred solution. They will out-handle the LS? That's a tall order. If true, perhaps I'll be eating crow. Aw, that's OK, it tastes like chicken! Evrything I've read though says they're FWD with AWD optional. No sense arguing over that until specs are on the table.
Here's another question: WHY TWO sedans on the same platform? As you've read, I believe I've seen both of them and I do think they've done one heck of a job on the styling (altho there's one thing I think needs to be changed about the smaller one - the way the roofline curves into the rear doors is way too dramatic for my taste pass that on will ya? :>) but how will they really differentiate the 2 vehicles? If the smaller one is the sporty one, does it get a bigger engine? Then the big one is underpowered, like the situation they've had in the past with Conti/TC engine choices. I just don't get it, ANT. To me the larger one is the new Town Car and the smaller one the Continental. Then they need the DEW-98 LS to fill the LARGE gap between the Conti and the Zephyr.
Ford seems to have gotten into a rut of building cars that have questionable raisons d'etre (Blackwood, Freestyle, 500, Aviator) which don't sell well and others which are a generation behind the competition (the minivans) then cancel them and do it again. Now they've built a big F150 Lincoln truck while dropping their Lincoln BMW competitor. Soon, apparently, we're going to see a Lincoln minivan. Oh boy. Going to fill the gap left by the demise of the Olds Silouhette? (The Cadillac of minivans:>) And if the LS goes away, what does that mean for the S-type?
Long story short, IMHO nobody at Lincoln has a clue where to take the brand. Daryl Hazel came and went and what did he accomplish? All I ever recall is seeing him hand one of those huge $million dollar checks to Magic Johnson to be Lincoln's spokesmouth. Never heard Magic say anything about a Lincoln though. Now Daryl's been promoted and someone else (who?) is running Lincoln. Meanwhile Caddy has gone past like L is standing still with a line of cars that really does challenge the big boys, even if the styling is polarizing. I recall the beautiful Mark X hardtop/convertible concept that was DOA according to Lincoln brass. Meanwhile Caddy now has that beautiful XLR roadster (I've seen as many of them on the road as I've seen Freestyles.) and Lincoln is developing a minivan. OK, I'm repeating myself now so I should wrap this up.
Like I said, my LS is in the shop with $3500 and counting worth of rear end damage. I got a Mazda 6 for a rental for one day and that was enough. That is NOT a car I want to drive. Now I have an Infiniti G-35. My mini-comparison to my V6 manual LS - the G-35 is FAST. Really fast. And it outhandles my LS, no doubt. The interior is very nice, though smaller than the LS by a skosh and a half. The leather is much softer than my LS's. It lacks some bells like power tilt/telescope, easy in-out, auto-on headlights etc. It looks to have aluminum suspension, but I dunno for sure. The ride is definitely inferior to the LS, even the sport package LS. Much too harsh and jouncy. Overall I think the LS V8 is a superior vehicle, though it should be for about $8K more. I like the G-35. My wife likes it too. But I'm looking forward to getting my LS back. If only it had about 250-260HP, it would be a near-perfect car. I don't think I would buy a G-35 because of the ride. OK, George out.
Well, I have driven several Audis, and owned an AWD Passat (W8 = 8 cylinder) and I think there are actually 2 downsides in 1 here. I was close to buying an Audi S4 at one point.
The weight distribution issue is certainly one downside. The other (for me, living where I do now) is the added weight (and cost and complexity) of any current AWD system. While AWD has undeniable advantages under certain, very specific conditions, I am not excited about having to live with the other aspects all the time, in order to benefit when I encounter those (rare, given where I live) specific conditions.
If I lived in central New England (where I lived for many years, and where I thought I would likely return, due to relatives’ health issues) the compromises might very well make sense. That was a primary consideration in my purchase of the Passat. Situations have changed for me since then.
I’d still prefer a RWD platform to an AWD platform with the LS’s size and weight and with a near 50 / 50 weight distribution – and (oh) 350+ HP / TQ . . .
If only . . .
I did come kinda close to purchasing a Jag S-Type R late last year. Only issue was actual transaction cost. About $3K or $4K difference ask vs. offer = close to a deal on the Sales Manager’s “Demo”.
If that drivetrain had been made available on an ’05 LS, I would absolutely still be driving an LS. The fact that the supercharged Jag motor & 6 speed automatic trans. were never made available in the LS = A triumph of Marketing over Logic. To me. And (since I bought 2 LS-s) I think one could certainly argue that I am in the LS’s target market.
But I could be wrong. Again.
And it is pretty clear that nothing any of us write here matters anymore so far as Lincoln listening and understanding. As it once did (sigh) . . .
- Ray
Still a bit annoyed (I suppose) at what “could have been” . .
The 4.6L fits in the engine bay but can't be installed from underneath - the lower control arm blocks it, so it can't be installed on a normal production line. That was one of the reasons they chose not to use it for the mustang. And I'm sure that the 4.6L is much cheaper to produce given the high production volume.
I'm sure they can make money on a $40K LS V8 but they're selling for $35K or less. If the profit margin on SUVs is $10K and cars are a lot less, it's not hard to imagine losing money on a car with $5K rebates. Remember, the plans were for several models off the dew98 platform which would spread the R&D costs, but that didn't happen.
Why would they keep building it if it loses money? They can't just shut down the plant right away like any normal business would do (thanks, UAW). And dealers need something to sell. Without the LS they'd have ONE car - the TC. The dealer still makes money even if the factory is losing money. So basically they're subsidizing the factory workers and dealers.
Jag has already modified it's DEW98 platform for the new XJ, plus they're selling Stypes worldwide (7 different models). So they're recovering their R&D costs. The Stype is also much more expensive than the LS and they don't have $5K rebates.
The new Lincolns will be AWD STANDARD - not sure where everybody keeps getting the optional part unless it's from the Zephyr which will have optional AWD. But for Lincoln's 2 new larger sedans it will be standard - guaranteed.
The LS will be dropped because it just simply doesnt' have a future. Ford isn't making money on it, just as Chevy didn't make money (and lost) with the Cavalier, just to help them with CAFE numbers. And or in this case, if it's paid for and amortized, so it's kept as a stop gap. There's some vehicle you keep for many reasons, the LS is one of them. And a main one, to keep the factory workers working. Many decisions are made reflecting that. Either which way, the workers get paid if they have a product to build or not, so might as well give them something to build even though your not making much off of it.
The S-type continues it's life cycle mainly because it's the XJ shared basic architecture with it. Next S-type will have a sportier future actually, while the X-Type is still being planned out. Jaguars biggest hurdle at the moment is to become profittable. Unfortunately they need to take bigger risks, styling being one of them. And it's as this moment the LS will be dropped.
The Lincoln "people mover" is a copy of what Ford will receive as well. Think Fairlane concept, idea. Dont' dare call it a minivan, hehe.
Caddy is on a different mission, which Lincoln almost followed. But Ford has Jaguar, they don't need to go upmarket. GM didn't have anyone, hence, they are pushing Caddilac upmarket. SO all we can compare is probably history they used to share against each other, but nothing more. Jac Nasser wanted to take Lincoln internationally with numerous vehicles designed for other markets. A novel idea but he lost focus on his core products, and the rest is history as we are living it.
I've test driven the Mazda6 numerous times in numerous different situations. If it's the base 4, well...it's to be expected. Although the 6 cylinder version handles extremely well for a FWD vehicle. And to think, I'm anti-FWD for my own uses, although to me in my opinion, handles very admirably and within the limits of what 99% of people will ever discover. Although don't let that deter you over the Zephyr. The suspension tuning is different amongst the F/M/Z vehicles. The Zephyr won't be an LS replacement (n drivability and handling)...the Zephyr will be more, Es330 like, but with a touch of soul and excitement when tossed (even if it's rarely). More of a Dr.Jekyl and Mr. Hyde senario.
Not trying to be argumentative, but ... if the profit margin on SUVs is $10K, then they're losing money on most of those as well. Friends and family is about 10K off sticker for a Nav, I got my Nav for a bit more than 10K off sticker, ... LS'es, like most American cars, have sticker prices which are, basically IMHO, inflated in order to allow dealers etc to squeeze the max amt of dollars from the unsuspecting, uninitiated an/or uninformed customers. This is true to a lesser degree of foreign makes - lesser because their cars actually sell for close to sticker, in most cases. Rebates and soft demand created by years of inferior products hurt the American cars. GM is trying to change this with value pricing and I commend them for it, tho I commend them for little else. In a vein similar to our discussion here, GM dropped their upcoming (epsilon??) RWD chassis which was going to underpin a number of important new cars, due to $$$ problems, which of course could be alleviated if they had some good product to sell and now that is pushed further into the future and the ether.
As for the LS being a money loser - I am sorry but I still remain totally unconvinced. First off, this G35 I'm driving DOES have aluminum suspension, it has better leather than the LS (probably more expensive interior materials all round) and it stickers for within $1000 of a similarly equipped LS V6. Is Infiniti losing money too? (Yes, I understand that the UAW is a big anvil around Ford's neck that Infiniti is free of. For the sake of argument, if Ford moved mfg of the LS to Mexico, what would that do for profit?)
I had forgotten about the X-type and the T-Bird (and others? ) built on the DEW-98. Yeah, the TBird is another example of Ford's marketing genius and is going away which of course makes it easier to dumo the LS. But DEW was to be used on the Mustang. And it should have been scheduled for a NICE Cougar and who knows what else. Imagine what a nice ceomplement of RWD performance/handling vehicles Ford could have produced if they'd proceeded with DEW-98 and it's -Lite brother. But no. They're producing a new Mustang with 1950s technology suspension, AFAIK. I've driven lots of live-axle Mustangs and similar. No thanks. Even this admitedly nice take on the Mustang would leave me reaching for the exit door the first time I experienced axle-hop goin round a corner.
And the argument that Ford is building the LS just to keep the UAW workers doing something??????? Come on, do I look like I just fell off a turnip truck? (Rhetorical:>)
Scenario A: Build a car and ship $1000 with each one just to workers working who would otherwise get paid anyway even if they didn't work. Business bottom line: Sell 50,000 of these cars a year, loss = 50 million dollars, pinky extended to lips.
Scenario B: Don't build the car, let the workers watch Oprah. Bottom line: No $$$ lost.
Scenario C: like B but sell the plant and the land. Bottom line 50 million profit.
So please enough with the 'they're losing money on each one'. There's NO WAY.
(BTW, Allen, I am quite relaxed :>)
And I definitely agree with Ray about AWD. I've got that on my Navigator and my old Cherokee. Well, actually I have 4WD on both which, IMHO, is superior to AWD but I digress. I wouldn't have them any other way. (That people actually buy Grand Cherokees with 2WD boggles my mind - digression again sorry). But I drive those vehicles to the snow and off-road. Here in sunny California, I don't want or need AWD on my daily driver. It would be useful < 1% of the time. The rest of the time it's an added expense, added weight and added cost to repair. (Wait til Consumer Reports publishes frequency of repair records for Lincolns with AWD!!! Cadillac will look like Toyota by comparison.) Fine, Lincoln could bring an AWD sedan to the party, but to give up what you've already got in one of the best RWDers out there? Yes, AWD will be nice in New England and the upper midwest. The rest of the country don't want it or need it.
Lastly, ANT: As I've said, I believe I've seen both of the new sedans and am partly writing from that perpective. Of course, I could be wrong (heaven forbid!) I have thought it is possible that I saw 2 possible versions of one of the cars. I dunno. But they seemed a bit too different for that. One was, I'd guess, a foot or more longer and somewhat wider than the other. And the smaller of the 2 guessing again about the same larger than the LS. It was hard not having the LS there to compare but both were bigger than the M45 that was there and that's about same as LS? (BTW, ANT- I am not asking and I do not want you to verify or comment on my speculations about what I saw - don't wanna get u in hot water. ) Certainly it's possible to tune each one differently etc. Course they already have a car that's pretty well tuned differently (the LS!) Put some new sheetmetal on that and - voila! Sorry, repeat mode off again.
You must agree, ANT, without revealing wheelbase dimensions, that there'sll be a huge gap between the Zephyr and the smaller of these new vehicles. Why?
Lincoln version of the Fairlane concept? Same question only louder - WHY? Is it going to be a woody? A black-woody? (Sorry, couldn't help it). Call it what you will, sounds like a minivan to me.
Ford thinks the Zephyr will be ES330 like? Geez, the LS didn't even measure up to that car, interior wise mainly, as for luxury. But I need to back off for now as I haven't seen a Z except in a few pictures and those have different tail and dash treatments so I really don't know what to expect. Except it better be a whole lot different than the Mazda 6. Mine had a small V6 and a spoiler and nice wheels. I actually had some boy racers pull up beside in their Civic with the 3 inch tailpipe and make some noises. They must not understand if they wanted me to race them in that. Finally, the Zephyr is going to cost appx what the LS V6 now costs. Yet the LS V6 is MUCH more expensive to make, being larger, having that diamond-plated DEW-98 undercarriage and being made by our friends the UAW, as opposed to being made in Mexico. So if Ford sells enough Z's with their infherent profit, that could more than cover the losses of keeping the ls, eh? :>)
The $10K profit is for the factory based on final dealer price, not MSRP. The only thing that lowers that profit is factory rebates and dealer cash, so as long as those are no more than $5K they're still making $5K profit.
It's not just the cost of the car itself - you have to factor in the R&D costs of a brand new platform. That's why the Panther cars (crown vic, grand marquis and town car) were Ford's most profitable cars (maybe still are) - because the R&D was paid for years ago. Your G35 has a lot of siblings to absorb the R&D costs. Not to mention a very cheap interior (IMO).
You said X-type but I think you meant S-type.
Why didn't they use DEW98 for the mustang? It cost too much, wasn't stiff enough and the independent front suspension wouldn't allow use of the 4.6L V8. The SN197 platform is cheaper and stiffer and possibly better than the DEW98 even with struts up front. Chassis technology has come a long way in the last 7 years. Even the Lincoln suspension engineers admit that our beloved DEW98 has a lot of flaws.
Have you actually driven a 2005 mustang with that 1950's technology rear axle? Test drivers reported no axle hop going around corners. In fact they actually had to look under the car to make sure there wasn't an IRS in there. It's that good. You don't hear people complaining about front struts on a BMW, do you? Because they've tuned the heck out of them. Same with the mustang. And there's no wheel hop on acceleration like the CTS-V which has a very modern IRS. Don't know it until you try it.
DEW-98 not perfect? What is? U really thing the live-axle Mustang platform >= DEW-98? C'mon, have some turnips! The G35 has no more siblings than DEW-98. If it's interior is cheap, the LS' is el-cheapo. Nope, haven't driven a new Mustang. Drove the previous generation and it was a POS. Brand new and the dashboard was completely falling apart.
I guess I'm convinced now. FWD and live rear axle is the way to go.
Chevy Citations all around!
"And the argument that Ford is building the LS just to keep the UAW workers doing something??????? Come on, do I look like I just fell off a turnip truck? (Rhetorical:>)"
They get 97% of their paycheck, EVEN if they aren't building anything and the factory is idle. The UAW has the american manufacturer's by the neck (to say it lightly). And then people are wondering why some models are being built in Mexico. That's one main reason it's being kept alive.
Why a Lincoln "people mover"... there's actually a market for it... Don't think minivan, just think "people mover". The research is out there, which is obviously why it's being designed. Now with the increased cost in gas getting higher daily, not everyone might want a Navigator, hence...the "people mover". New Aviator will be out by then as well, selling well...
I sat in a G35 and the current LS and they LS interior, IMO, is much nicer. And IIRC the G35 sedan shares it's platform with the G35 coupe, Murano, FX-35, FX-45 and 350Z (at least).
I think we'd all prefer to see a new, RWD updated dew98 with 3 different size sedans, a small coupe and convertible and maybe a roadster, but it ain't happening.
Three primary things
p***upset me about my LS "experience:"1) The elimination of the manual transmission at the same time the engine (VVT) and many other things were improved significantly. Instead of adding the manual to the V8, it was eliminated completely. All the better to deal with the mind-numbed Lincoln-driving masses.
2) The gutting/elimination of the group of passionate car people who were responsible for the LS's development and early years. This happened at about the same time FoMoCo couldn't rub two dimes together, so, as in most corporate cultures, the good people went where the money was, voluntarily or otherwise.
3) The dealers -- the "we don't no stinkin' sports sedan" dealers.
The car is soon to be deader than Elvis (look at the calendar). The concept for which it was developed, along with the team that did it, have been for years.
I've felt it important to buy "American" cars. I'm losing that feeling. Why? Jacques "the racist" Nasser, the UAW - their lazy attitude AND their blind lock-step support of the WRONG political candidates every time (I won't say which), their closing of their parking lots to US Marine recruiters (because some of those marines had bumper stickers supporting the non-UAW endorsed candidate), and finally because of the management of these "American" companies in the final analysis cares not a whit about the red white and blue but rather only cares about the green.
"Why a Lincoln "people mover"... there's actually a market for it... Don't think minivan, just think "people mover". The research is out there, which is obviously why it's being designed. Now with the increased cost in gas getting higher daily, not everyone might want a Navigator, hence...the "people mover". New Aviator will be out by then as well, selling well... "
I can't think "people mover" because to me that means a moving walkway at the airport or an escalator. Tell Lincoln to come up with a better descriptor will ya?
So their research says I want a "people mover" but I don't want a luxo RWD sport sedan with optional manual transmission? Hmmm. Well, at least Caddy, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Volvo, Saab, Infiniti, Lexus, .... have researchers and management that actually LISTEN to their customers, and apparently Lincoln's (former) customers as well. (Just had a latte :>)
How about a Navigator with a technologically advanced engine management system which shuts down 2 or 4 cylinders when not needed thus improving gas mileage? If Ford has not heard of this, have them talk to Jeep or Cadillac. (I love my Navigator except at gas-up time. I don't want a people mover, thanks anyway.)
You assume the new Aviator will be selling well? What kind of gas mileage does it get? Lexus will have a hybrid SUV Aviator competitor soon. How is Aviator going to compete/respond to that? Not only that, but the Aviator name is not exactly synonomous with reliable transportation, or hasn't Lincoln kept up with the problem reports? I have. I darn near bought one, but got the Nav instead (which is the best SUV out there by a long shot, IMHO) But the Avi? It runs and handles with the best, but it has the LS HVAC system (and you all know how I feel about that :>) and a floor heater vent which blows directly on ones right leg and that ain't cool. But I digress again.
"The old mustang platform and new SN197 are like night and day. There's no comparison. It's that good. It's also considerably cheaper."
I will have to take your word on both of these points. Though it does sound a little like snake oil.
"I sat in a G35 and the current LS and they LS interior, IMO, is much nicer. And IIRC the G35 sedan shares it's platform with the G35 coupe, Murano, FX-35, FX-45 and 350Z (at least). "
I admit I haven't been in an LS since we all saw the 2003s in Irvine. Been a while. I know they're much improved over mine, what with the elec parking brake, huge center console, satin-nickel etc. The seats are probably better than the 2001 leather too I'd guess. So I'll concede this point. The G35 is pretty sporty inside, has great seats and the door panels and switchgear are nicer than my '01. The G35 shares it's platform with all those you mentioned except the Murano. (It's a FWD platform.) The rest are RWD and some have AWD optional.
"I think we'd all prefer to see a new, RWD updated dew98 with 3 different size sedans, a small coupe and convertible and maybe a roadster, but it ain't happening. "
OK, I'll agree with this. Now, given cost constraints etc would you prefer, or do you think customers would prefer this, let me get specific:
Zephyr (FWD/AWD opt); LS(RWD) with new sheet metal; 'New' D3 flagship sedan(FWD/AWD optional - give us a choice), Town Car (the big new D3 one not the Panther platform - that's gotta go); new Aviator, Navigator, Mark X-like roadster convertible.
-OR-
Zephyr, new D3 sedan #1, new D3 sedan #2, same old Panther Town car, new Aviator, Navigator, Pickup truck, People Mover.
Am I crazy or should Lincoln be a luxury-sport car line with a crossover and a big SUV (as long as the market for those holds) or is Lincoln a nameplate to be attached to most Ford products along with a waterfall grille and power seats with memory?
Lincoln Pickup truck?
Lincoln People Mover?
1960's technology flagship sedan?
-or-
Competes with the best RWD performance sedan
Conv't roadster to compete with XLR, Lexus, etc
There's only so many $$$s to go round, agreed. I'd put them into the LS and the Mark X myself. Let Ford have the pickups and the people movers ferchrissake.
"The elimination of the manual transmission at the same time the engine (VVT)"
I remember sitting thru Jonathon's presentation about the '03 LSes back in '02 at Irvine. Wow! I thought the V6 is up to 235 HP or so. That's a pretty good jump from my 210. The Getrag will be even more fun now. And I waited and waited for JC to mention the manual and he didn't and I asked him and he had 'no comment' and I knew the blue hairs had won.
"The dealers -- the "we don't no stinkin' sports sedan" dealers"
-BINGO. I wonder how Caddy convinced their dealers to go along with the plan?
OK, the caffeine has worn off. TIme to hop in my Infiniti and blow the doors off any Lincoln people movers I see on the way over the mountain back home :>)
A pleasant thing.
As strange as it might seem, I put a lot of "something" into going to American iron back in '00. I bought into the original concept, big-time. I paid retail (well, not really . . . a few percent over invoice), but not the current $2-10K rebate deals.
I learned a few years later that my faith was badly misplaced. Fool me once. . .
I'm older now. . .and a bit wiser.
Infiniti. . .BMW. . .Cadillac. These are my choices (only because Audi ****canned the manual).
Ain't life grand? Well, it is, actually. I'm still driving the LS, and the vehicle that will replace it will be far better. What's not to like?
What might have been. That's what.
I don't blame Lincoln for the demise of the manual - I blame consumers who don't want them and dealers who don't want to sell them. The ONLY reason the LS got a manual to start with was because it would be sold overseas and that's a requirement in Europe. Take away European sales and even BMW would have a hard time justifying a manual here in the states. Same for Infiniti and Japanese sales.
Lincoln has been damaged by Jag and Volvo and a lack of marketing direction including high management turnover plus a dearth of new car products. They need a lot of new cars quickly and as cheaply as possible. So they decided to go AWD and the most economical choice of platforms was Volvo. Same with the Mazda6 platforms for the Zephyr/Milan/Fusion. I believe now that Jag has gone upmarket and they have these new models either in production or planned that they can start to concentrate on more niche products and more performance oriented vehicles. It takes a lot of money to develop a new RWD platform (and the jury is still out on whether Cadillac will ever recover what they've spent on R&D and advertising).
I wondered about that, akirby... Still, I'm glad they did it - I don't love the style of the new Caddys, especially inside, but they had to do something, because what they had was embarrasing for the past 20 years.
Ford can't do that for Lincoln, which pains me, because there is a ton of heritage in the brand - but with Jag, Land Rover & Volvo, they frankly don't need Lincoln...
I will postulate that the ‘losing money one each LS sold’ is correct.
I will ** guess ** that the loss is roughly 10%.
If average invoice \ sell to dealer transaction is $30K (could certainly be off here - in either direction, but I expect that this is the order of magnitude) the loss would be $3,000 per LS.
With sales of 20,000 units per year (likely a bit high, now) that is a loss of $60,000,000 per year on the LS. (gulp) On a revenue stream of $600,000,000
Now – some speculation about the loss associated with closing down LS production:
Clearly, the cost of the UAW remains large – some high percentage of current.
We can assume that labor = 15% to 20% of the cost to build. (Source = UPI)
The cost of materials (tires, etc.) and sub-assemblies drops to $0.
The cost of “running the plant” (electricity, indirect labor [not assembly: custodial, machine repair & maint., for examples],etc.) would drop substantially, but not to $0. Insurance on the facility might drop, for example, with no ‘dangerous’ assembly activity – but again would not even approach $0.
The cost of any mortgage \ loan on the physical plant (building and internal equipment, etc.) would continue to run.
So – the cost might drop to 50% of current – say $300,000,000. And the revenue stream drops to – (this one is easy) exactly $0.
So – the loss = umm, $300,000,000 per year. (Could be as low as $200M, could be $400M, I suppose. Specific numbers for a specific model and assembly plant are not likely to be released by Manufacturers.)
But any of these numbers look like a much larger loss than $60,000,000 / year.
And the ‘sell the plant’ suggestion? Well, what exactly is the market for a plant (like Wixom) that is designed quite specifically to produce automobiles?
Likely not good, today . . .
Like most complex problems, there are typically many ‘simple’ solutions – that are unworkable or cause equal (or greater) problems. And I freely admit that this is oversimplified.
Just my (free) analysis.
- Ray
Happy to have my problems, and not Ford’s – or GM’s . .
The vehicle was "pulled" because it was a vehicle from the Jac Nasser era that required other parts of the plan to be implemented for the vehicle to have continued it's life cycle for many years to come. At the time it was introduced, the plan was to have competitive vehicles that work in an international market. Sharing parts with Jaguars. After Jac Nasser was ousted, then plans change (since the company was losing money)... a realization that having 2 upper echelon brands (Linc, Jag) would not be monetarily feasable.
The plan now is, to design/build/manufacturer luxury vehicles at certain pricepoints that define american luxury.
Other manufacturer's have the same issue with some of their vehicles, for whatever X, X, X, reasons.
It's hard to believe that Nasser is to blame for the present state of affairs. It might just be that he was right and the present execution of making dull, the press view, interchangeable parts cars, that aren't selling well, cause they can not match or exceed the competition, is not working.
Time will tell if you can sell cars by advertising alone. When my LS was in the shop, the dealer took me for a ride in the Montego. My comment was, 'if I wanted a Volvo it would be OK'. It did not hold a candle to the LS. It did have more room and thats the best I can say.
Ford had a niche and blew it. They didn't even try to capitalize on the LS following. This was my first American car in nearly 40 years . It is a car that exceeded my expectations. As far as I am concerned Ford L/M blew it. Does a quality product have to discount with we are all friends and family discounts.
Think Lexus, Acura,MB, BMW.
Sure some companies make mistakes.... but very few successful companies squander their' loyal following' assets to make a lessor product. My limited experience tells me that The LS was a good car with classic styling. The company should find a way not to lose this market by trying to sell a car that just don't cut the mustard. So far the market has spoken and sales are, in general down. ......I do rant don't I. ... The LS buyer is not the Jag buyer....therefore sharing parts etc. would not have competed and would result in keeping costs down.
This is my humble opinion
As for the smart business move - exciting performance cars are a niche market. The bread and butter is still in "transportation appliances" like the 500/Montego. How else can you explain Accord and Camry (and Taurus a few years back) selling 400K units per year?
And sometimes you wonder on how feasable some of his plans were. Todays 500 was originally planned as a Taurus replacement, but was later crapped (by current management) when obviously there wasn't a way to price the vehicle at the current Taurus' entry price point.
Decisions made 6 years ago under that management, plagues Ford today. What the newer Ford management has been able to speed up is the delivery of fresher products considering the budget constraints on specific vehicles. And currently, decisions being made on certain products just 2 years ago, are debuting in a year or so with delivery times of 18 months from "start to finish" of a specific vehicle program.
Consolidation of numerous platforms, and invested amortization in the past few years has allowed better quality products to be design/developed/manufactured with lower costs. Instead of taking the thinking of "Lets use a good-enough platform, and luxurify it to pass it as a different vehicle"...moving onto "Let's take a much more advanced/sophisticated platform, and threw the sharing of parts be able to offer it throughout a whole range of vehicles/brands.
As in Fords C1 Architecture (Euro Focus, Volvo S40, C70, Mazda3, next Freelander, etc.). Same as with the D3 architecture (Volvo's P2)...ranging from Volvo, S60, S80, XC70, XC90, 500/Mtgo/FS, Next generation minivans for Ford/Lincoln, 2 Lincoln sedans" etc.
Obviously these changes can't take place overnight... Even the current needs to continue life on it's current platform, long overdue for a change. But again, all depends on the budgets and what is allocated considering the current issues in the economy, UAW, healthcare, fuel prices. By 2008 things will look much healthier overall.
There was an article recently I believe on the Detroit News stating how manufacture's can profit from niche vehicles provided the keep production numbers low to increase demand. Obviously, costs need to be spread out by using components of other vehicles as well. While basic appliances (such as Camry/Accord) do not really profit much. Although all manufacturer's have their reasons for creating certain vehicles. Even GM admitted years ago it would lose over $800 on each Cavalier sold, but didn't care because it would help them with C.A.F.E. credits....
And as there's that reason, there's many reasons why the LS has suffered the fate it has. I'm on my 2nd LS as it is, and the next (I don't wish to call it replacement, but essentially it'll be) is even more sophisticated and designed to handle better. So it's wwaaayyyyy too early to think doom & gloom.
What I'm interested in now is - does anyone here have experience with or know anyone who has experience with getting their LS rear-ended and then put back together? My issue is that I've got close to $4000 in damage to the rear bumper, trunk, qtr panels and some stuff you can't see from a direct hit in the rear. My concern is - what about the other stuff on the car - suspension, brakes etc? Any chance of damage there? I was pretty much stopped and he was doing about 40 or 50 before he jammed on his brakes about 20 feet behind me so he hit me pretty good, as my back will attest. Immediately, I jammed on my brakes to keep from hitting the guy in front of me.
After the body work is done, I plan to have my dealer service dept look the underside over real good. It's gotta go in for the 60,000 mile checkup anyway. So am I being too paranoid? Or are ther things I should get looked at seriously? WHat about the air bags? Do they need to be dbl-checked? I know they should not have gone off in a rear-ender and they didn't. Neither did his, perhaps surprisingly.
Thanks for any input.
G
There are a few hundred of us (I could be off by a dozen or two) who bought into the LS concept when it was introduced. I really appreciated the notion that Lincoln was going to engage the rest of the world with the LS (that front bumper tow hook cutout, as well as the manual, were the real deal).
I'd never owned a vehicle built in the U.S. before, but I thought this one was worthy. The fact (at the time) that the LS was going to be marketed world-wide was a big deal to me. Even among the LS faithful (back then), every time I brought up the European marketing thing, I was hit with a "who cares" response.
Well, I did. If the LS could compete in Europe, it would have been something that FoMoCo had never done before. It didn't, & FoMoCo is still as it was before, only worse. The Jag has a pretty miserable reliability reputation. The Ford taxis & police cars are pretty reliable. Aside from little crap & one $800 item, my LS has run fine for 86K miles and over five years.
It's been said that cynics are disappointed idealists. It's true, at least in my case. There is not a more pissed-off LS owner than me, given that the car still runs fine. I was sucked in (at full retail), then blown off. You, or your company, will never recover me. As if. . .
Obviously my opinion matters not a whit, given that the vast (vast, vast, really vast) majority of people who drive Lincolns aren't the people who care about front bumper tow hooks or manual transmissions. The dealers are worse yet.
What's interesting to me is that the FoMoCo managed to repeat history with the LS, as compared to the Merkur. I was unaware of the Murkur fiasco when I bought my LS. Shame on me.
I'm now aware of both. The future Lincoln demographic (assuming there will be one) obviously doesn't involve people who enjoy driving and/or who can read or write (on the web), so it's possibly a winning business model. Good luck.
Include me out.
I was able to visit Dearborn a few months ago and was disappointed that I couldn't feel more a part of what was going on. Drove right by Wixom on the way & on the way back.
I think I was the target demographic for the original LS. It worked. . .once.
As Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln, get it?) said:
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
SO what happens when the next LS debuts and it's better overall than the vehicle it replaces? Are you more perturbed over the fact that the "going international" plan didn't pan out, or that the LS name (well, more about it's spirit) will continue on another vehicle with another name ?
Heyjewel,
After it's all assembled and fixed, I would suggest you drive the vehicle in numerous different road surfaces and look for any rattles/squeaks. Also, at higher speeds and check for any vibration issues. If possible (according to your insurance) I would have the dealership fix it rather than one of the insurer's "qualified auto shops".
Tip for all, Upon rear impact (right at the moment you no longer see a persons hood in the rear view mirror), release your brake pedal so the vehicle bounces, rather than absorb the impact (unless your in an intersection, that can shoot you into the middle of it, or have another vehicle closely in front). That little bit makes a major difference.
SO what happens when the next LS debuts and it's better overall than the vehicle it replaces? Are you more perturbed over the fact that the "going international" plan didn't pan out, or that the LS name (well, more about it's spirit) will continue on another vehicle with another name ? "
Ant, I agree with you completely. Unfortunately there are those out there that are blind to any vehicle that is't RWD and have a manual transmission.
Maybe there should be a thread dedicated to them.
Aside from the fact that I like RWD over FWD, I feel dissapointed by L/M not following through with the premise that an American made car can successfully compete.
The facts speak. The American car makers have had their lunch eaten by imports for the past 30 years. It's just not unions its the Detroit mentality
If history is the guide, it looks like it will not be long before we can kiss this American industry good bye.
My business experience taught me 2 rules. 1. Give the customer what it wants or someone else will. Rule 2.....see rule 1.
The Germans, Japanese, Koreans seem to get the message and have increased thier share of the market. Soon the chinese will be a player.
It's just not price..
This board has always been informative...helpful...argumentative and always respectful. Not only a great car...a great board.
I say, wait and see if you aren't in a big sweat to buy a replacement now, the next one may be great.