scottc8: well, if you're going to be such a "hussy" about it (I thought long and hard on that word) then I will continue to get all of my high performance work (on my Sable LS) at my local Kroger High Performance Store...down the produce aisle, just past the Romaine lettuce and organic tomatoes...:):):)
I may be completely out to lunch here, but there's a TSB regarding leaks from a line connected to the transmission cooler. I'm not even sure this is a water line; I don't know whether or not the tranny is cooled via the radiator.
Also, the TSB sites a very specific build-date range in April of 2000. (If not pertinent, put it down to me being clueless.:)) At any rate, here's the info:
Service Bulletin Number: 14190 Bulletin Sequence Number: 138 Date of Bulletin: 0006 NHTSA Item Number: SB613890 Make: LINCOLN Model: LS Year: 2000 Component: POWER TRAIN:TRANSMISSION:AUTOMATIC:COOLING UNIT AND LINES Summary: SOME VEHICLES BUILT BETWEEN 04/01/2000 AND 04/24/2000 MAY EXHIBIT A FLUID LEAK AT THE RUBBER HOSE THAT ATTACHES THE COOLER LINE TO THE TRANSMISSION COOLER. *TT
Lincoln Exhibit Come on Brian and Michael. Don't sugar coat it - tell us what you really thought of the Mark 9 and the Lincoln exhibit! ;-) Ugly as a Pontiac Aztec? The Batmobile? That would make your skin crawl, alright. I like the idea of an DEW platform coupe but the Mark 9 concept IS pretty hideous. Besides, it was built on the Town Car platform. YUK. In the pictures, the front end kinda reminds me of a Mercury Mountaineer. It gets worse from there.
Pinging My early build LS exhibited some light pinging at 30 - 40 MPH but the original PCM reflash cured it. Obviously, 2001 models shouldn't need that. Pinging should be easily curable, though. You will lose some performance with low octane fuel but the engine management system should be able to retard the timing sufficently to eliminate pinging. Jeff's idea of a sensor is logical.
Rear Window Crash- It finally happened this morning, hit the button, crunch, window freely slides up and down, but nothing happens when the control is pushed. Took it to the dealer and asked that both sides be fixed, so I will let you know if I have any luck. Also asked for the new transmission software, check my car for the ball joint recall and fix the speed volume control on the radio. Asked for a loaner (in the past always got a Lincoln LS or Conti), and was told that Thrifty now handles all the loaners for them. They wanted to give me a Corrola, but finally gave me a Dodge Intrepid. Seems to be a bad idea to put me in a different brand than what they sell. Mine is a June '99 build date.
Like several others, I noticed performance gains with added miles on the car. It was not as though suddenly at 5000 miles somebody gave it an extra 50 HP, but it did improve gradually over time - particularly in the 4000 - 6000 RPM range. I think maybe part of the improvement is due to the power curve of the engine. It develops its power at a higher RPM than I was accustomed to with my old 4.6 T-bird. A tight "green" engine doesn't like high RPMs. As the engine "loosens up" the RPMs come easier and you have better performance.
The current stock LS8 will never be really quick, IMHO. I think this engine would benefit from a displacement increase to fatten up the low-end torque and VVT to maintain the power over a broader range. Then, after those changes, we need a numerically lower OD ratio to improve cruising fuel economy. See, I am not asking for much!
King Lincoln Mercury in Gaithersburg utilizes Enterprise Rental car for their loaners. I cant complain about their service. I drive up to the garage door for the service area. (Actually, its the "pre" service area..a big garage where the service writers offices are). Driving over the ground sensor automatically opens the garage doors, and I drive right in. Within a minute or two, the service writer (I always have had the same one) walks up, grabs my keys, jots down the VIN and mileage, and into his office (about 3 feet away) we go. Informed him of the coolant leak, the TSB# of the reflash, and within 5 minutes, the driver from Enterprise drives over (Enterprise is a few blocks away) in the shuttle van, and whisks me away to sign/pick up the rental. Had my choice between a Ford Crew Cab truck, Chevy Malibu, or Olds Alero. (Chose the Alero...not bad, actually. Quick for a 4 cylinder, relatively quiet except for the 4 gets buzzy at higher rpms, handles well, rides well.) All costs for rental are paid by the dealership.
Their service is why I continue to drive somewhat out of my way to go back to that dealership.
Pinging- When mine was pinging, they found that the exhaust manifold had a crack in it. It was louder when I would first start the car and then would get quieter as the manifold heated and expanded, closing the crack. They replaced both sides without me having to ask.
Finally... I reached the 15,000 mile mark and changed to Mobil 1 Synthetic. My Duratec V6 runs VERY smoothly now. Yes, I can notice the difference. Any vibration that may have been there before is gone, its like the engine isn't even there at all.
Cabin Air Filter: Changed it in about a minute (very easy to do!)
Fuel Filter: Very simple to change! It is behind the black plastic liner in the front driver's side wheel well (rear piece.) probably didn't have to change it yet... just wanted to.
1. While the MK 9 was, in my opinion ugly, it did do its job and had tons of people checking it out and also generating traffic around the LSes.
2. The Lincoln product specialists, while not Lincoln folks, were very knowledgeable about the products. After two days, I appreciate how hard it is to stay on your feet for over 10 hours while maintaining a positive image.
3. Either LLSOC or Lincoln needs to build a manual transmission LS-8 to have on a show floor. Even if it never makes it into production, having one on a show floor will generate tons of buzz about the car. We're working on it.
4. Need to have a manual LS-6 Sport on the show floor. Just to prove that it really exists.
5. The top five questions asked of me at the show: 1. What is that, the new Continental? 2. When are they coming out with a manual V-8? 3. You can get a manual with the LS? 4. They going to increase the horsepower? 5. What's the Sport package have?
6. The product specialists thought that having LLSOC there talking about the LS was great! They hope we continue to be invited.
7. For whatever reason stealing ashtrays or cigarette lighters or anything that isn't nailed, screwed, or welded down must be good sport. Not sure what they do with these parts, but at least two of the LSes were missing these items by Saturday.
8. The NY Auto Show is the largest auto show, attendance-wise, in the country.
9. Ford had people from the Wixom plant in attendance. I showed the paint defect to one of them who said he would take the info. back to the paint shop manager.
10. Seems that, next to swiping stuff or seeing how many brochures of different cars you can possibly stuff into free bags, the next major sport at car shows is to get as many pictures taken of you sitting behind the steering wheel of different cars. If LLSOC could have charged money for the picture takers, we would have made a ton of money.
11. Richard, the booth manager, and his group, went out of their way to make us feel welcome and helped us stay out of trouble. He had LS specific brochures that we were able to hand out and told us all about the secrets(like where the employee lounge was so we didn't have to pay $3.00 for a soda).
12. Next to the product specialists, the hardest working group, had to be the car detailers, who were constantly waxing the cars to get rid of the dust and fingerprints.
All in all, a tiring but very interesting and rewarding adventure. I hope you all get a chance to experience the car show from our vantage point at some point. It is quite different.
Brian
P.S. Thanks to Tom and his wife for allowing the NJ LLSOC members to invade his home for major garage racing on Wed. It was a blast!
How far do you think Palm Desert, CA is from Gaithersburg? Sounds like you got a good one there. I could drive there for a major service but by the time I got back I would be ready for another service. Where did the subject box go anyway?
Need some info....Getting ready to purchase a new 2001 LS V8, with the sport package. Per Lincoln, they perfer 91 octane. Here in So. Calif. our choices are either 89 or 92 octane. Seems to me that running 89 would not do any harm to the engine. Does anyone have any experience running the lower octane vs premium? I currently have a Mark VIII and run 92 and have never experienced any pinging. I've read most of the messages and have a laundry list of items to look out for prior to my purchase, so thanks to all of you for that input. By the way I looked at other auto's, Lexus ES300, GS300/400, Acura, Cad Seville, and in as much as I have had some problems with my 95 Mark, I felt asthough the LS was the car for me.
I have had my LS for about 17 months now and used 89 octane most of the time for the first year. I had no problems with pinging or other drivability problems. That said however; I now use 92 octane most all the time and I think my mileage and performance has improved so I'll stick with it though I begrudge having to pay the extra tariff.
Lincoln needs to do what Cadillac did. Tune engine to run optimumly on 87 octane regular. If a 300 hp Northstar can, why can't ours?
(Here in tall corn land, when gas prices get past about $1.50/g I start alternating between 92/91 octane premium unleaded and 90 octane ethanol. The ethanol sells for about the same as the 87 octane regular; sometimes cheaper, sometimes a bit costlier, but always a lot less than premium. So far, I've never had any problems with limited ethanol.)
While the 3.9 is smooth, I agree with others. For "only" 252hp(compare to other 8 cylinders) , it should either A) Get better gas mileage or B)generate that 252hp on regular unleaded fuel. Lincoln should really consider adding VVT to both the V8 and V6 LS as soon as possible. Didnt I read somewhere on this board where the VVT technology isnt even that costly a technology to incorporate/add to the LS engines? (Not aftermarket, of course...Im talking about from the factory..(
The Mark 9 concept car was built on the Town Car platform because it's just a show car to demonstrate styling directions - it's not a pre-production car. The platform just holds up the body, that's why they used a TC as the base.
Anybody else think it looks a lot like the new T-Bird, only bigger?
4/13/01 issue of NY Times has a nice story on the 101st NY Intl Auto Show. Guessing story would be on their public web site. Opened 4/13/01 and runs for 10 days. Expect 1.2 million visitors. Takes over 2,500 workers to set up. Supposed to have about 960 cars and about 5.5 million pounds of exhibits. $9 for adults/$3 for kids under 12. Sounds quite impressive. I'm jealous of Brian and the others who got to help out. Sounds impressive, interesting, and fun!
The only reason it requirs 2500 workers to set up the NY Auto Show is because of the Teamsters and featherbedding...God help you if someone picks up a screwdriver who is not a union worker costing $50.hour...if the NY show was held in a non-union state, the same work could probably be done with less than half that amount
You're right on the money with that one! (pun intended).
Every now and again a story will surface about the scandal and corruption surrounding the Jacob Javits Center. Please note that I am not anti-union. I come from a family of 2 generations of union plumbers. So, don't blame the workers. You need to make $50 an hour to live aound here.
to jrogers Try to stop by every now and then on the Mercury Marauder chatbox. It's not very active (unfortunately, there's no car to see or drive until 2002, except for the autoshows), but we'd appreciate any insight that you could provide above and beyong the press releases. One man's opinion: consider keeping the Mercury taillight treatment; you don't want to make the car look too plain or too much like a Crown Vic. (This is my opinion from photos only. I intend to see the car Thursday at the NY show.)
Thanks for the feedback on the octane. I agree, if Cad Northstar can run on 87 why can't Lincoln run on the same...Is someone sleeping in the Lincoln engineering department? When I was looking at the LS I went to several local So. Cal . Lincoln dealers and I posed the same question as to whether this car (LS,V8) would run efficiently on 89. They all agreed that 89 would not be a problem. However, salesmen are salesmen and I bet if I asked whether the car would operate efficiently on paint thiner they would probably would have said yes!!! I think more car salesmen, service writers, and Lincoln exec's should explore these chat-type communication vehicles such as this one that Edmunds has provided so they don't have to act stupid in front of a buyer who has done a-little homework on the vehicle he may purchase....Any comments??
The LM execs ARE listening here. Its the salesmen and dealers who should put their "headphones" on. Despite the fact that there must be tens-of-thousands of LM dealers, salesmen, and mechanics in the world, only a couple have ever openly posted on these boards. There are more LM execs here then that.
I, for one, would appreciate the opportunity to have a dialogue with representatives from the dealers side of the story to get their perspectives and opinions on the issues that we discuss. There are, after all, always two sides to every story.
Hooray for the return of the title bar. I hope it enjoyed it's short hiatus.
I think it was the Motor Trend long term test car that also had a coolant leak from a bad hose clamp. Certainly can't hurt to check it out if you can get to them. Can you get under the car? You might see the tell-tale trail of dried coolant. If it happens again, ask them to put the dye in the system which will show any leaks under black light. These things are weird and don't anyway show up with a pressure test. Some will only show when the engine is cold and some only when it's hot. It had to come from someplace.
I have a slight wind noise when driving over 60mph that seems to eminate from the rear driver door. I tried to lean in the middle to see if it comes from the passenger rear door, but couldn't tell. Has anyone else experienced this? The remainder of the wind noise seems consistent around the rest of the car, just that rear door that seems a few dB higher.
I also drove on the hwy in 4th gear, regular auto V8 tranny and hit 120mph at just 400rpms. I didn't even switch to 5th. Too bad I had to slow down, but the car was rock solid and had plenty of power to give. Just makes me wonder how fast it can really go. Too bad I have the Continental series R rated 16inch tires (106mph rating). But I truly love how smoothly it accelerated to the speed and how rock solid it was, I felt very comfortable with the car.
I agree. Hate to see something leak, and then dont get a solid answer. And actually, the service advisor at the dealership stated "we checked and tightened the hose clamps just to make sure". NOt certain of the vailidity of this statement because I *think* these are the clamps that are either on or off, no adjustment..as opposed to the kind that you screw on with a flathead screwdriver. I could be wrong..
After several months of reviewing this site, I bought a Pearl Blue LS V8 sport a week ago. Have just under 1000 miles on it, and love it. Am averaging 16.5 MPG in the city and today on a 220 mile Interstate drive at 70-75 MPH (occaisionally a little more)averaged 19.3 MPG. Not bad for new engine from what I am reading. The only problem I have had so far is keeping the car within the speed limit (or close to it) as it rides so well.
Thanks to all who post their problems, solutions and kudos. It all really helped me sort out the dealer "hype".
My family test drove a 2000 V8 LS for a couple hours. We decided not to but it because of two noises: wind around the doors and the '51mph drone'. While we had it, we looked carefully at the doors and my wife actually found the problem. (BTW, today she fixed the dishwasher! Diagnosed, found the worn parts, got the new ones and put em in all while I was at work! What a gal!) Anyway, the LS problem was definitely the door seals around 2 doors were improperly installed.
I'd suggest you look carefully at all the doors and compare the seals on a good, quiet door to those on the suspect door. What caught my wife's eye was dust and dirt that had snuck past the bad seal onto the door frame. The bad seals were crinkled and wrinkled and ... well, you'll know if they look wrong.
Oh, and where the heck do you (and others who've posted similar stories) find these roads where you can get to 120mph???
BTW, we did buy an LS: a 2001 V6 with a 5speed manual. We love it and all the door seals fit.!
ronniepooh; If you've thought of this already, great, if not: could your coolant possibly be coming out of the overflow tube? That's certainly a possibility and one that is not too unusual. In fact, at the races in Irvine, one of our members' LSs leaked a bit of coolant out the overflow after a couple hard runs on the autocross course.
I too had a problem with my V8 sport, after 4 months of ownership. Took the family down to Palm Springs and after starting the car smelled a strange odor. Got out of the car and noticed a little coolant dripping. (didnt think anything of it since it was already 90 degrees at 9:30am and the air conditioning was running) while driving to breakfast the thermostat gauge climbed from normal to the top and the car basically shut itself down. It still was able to crawl to the nearest parking lot. Called Lincoln Roadside and they towed me to Palm Springs Motors. End result a faulty thermostat that stuck. Was told that if the thermostat runs high, the engine automatically purges the coolant. Dont know how true that is, the service advisor told me that. Dont know if that has anything to do with yours, but I thought I'd contribute my experience. - Alex
Ps. All wasnt bad, Lincoln picked up the tab for an extra nights stay at the resort, meals and the rental car. Cars been fine since.
Eor2, congrats on your new purchase, same car I got 2 weeks ago and lovin' it. I am averaging 17.1mpg mixed driving with just 650miles on the car so far. I get frustrated since I only live six miles from the office, so I don't get to drive much.
Heyjewel, thanks for the tip, I will check that out for sure. BTW, I just bought a new dishwasher, can I hire your wife to come install it ;-). Wish I could get my fiancee to put it in, but that would never happen, she might mess her nails up.
As for the speed, I thought it was always customary to go excessively fast past the Highway Patrol stations. Their radar guns only go to 100mph right? ...just kidding. You probably never get a chance to open up your ride with all that traffic and windy roads in northern cali. But I bet the Hwy 17 and 9 drives are real nice in the ride, which I am assuming you have done. I have done both on my motorcycle when I used to live up that way.
Yes, I know. It's still front wheel drive, which most of us here despise. It gets Stanny1's blood pressure up. :-). But now it gets 260hp, with NO additional penalty in MPG, thanx to dual stage induction and most importantly: VARIABLE TIMING aka VTEC or VVT to FordMoCo. $33,000. Lincoln should really pay close attention to the competetion. If I were shopping for a new car today, even though this TL is FWD, I would have to take a test drive for myself before plunking down a few thousand more for the V8 LS which gives me worse MPG and less HP.
Lincoln: One Word. VVT. Put the Jag heads on the LS for 2003. Jag buyers wont care if the LS has the same HP.
I realize this review was mentioned a few weeks ago, but this is my first time really reading it thoroughly, and had some comments:
#1. Why do these reviewers insist on comparing the EPA rated Mid-Sized LS with the EPA rated Compact (Subcompact?) BMW 328i? Is price the only factor they consider when doing a comparison? The LS's interior space is not only larger than the BMW 5 series, but larger than the BMW 7 series! Sure, the 328 is a great car, but after I sat in one at the dealership, ruled it out because it was only marginally larger than my previous car, the E36 chassis BMW. They give the LS a knock because it pulled .01g less on the skidpad than the 328. Thats a GREAT thing, considering the size of the LS. They also state that the sport suspension on the 328 is tuned better than the LS sport suspension because of a degradation in ride quality on the LS. Of course the suspension is going to have to be tuned a bit firm to get a large car the ability to generate those great skidpad numbers.
#2. Anyone else here think that the LS's servicing intervals are excessively frequent? If BMW's Porsches, and Mercedes can go 15,000 to 18,000 miles between oil changes, and people can still get upwards of 150,000 to 200,000 miles on those engines, why cant Lincoln? Ditto for the filter changes. Most modern fuel filters (at least ones of BMW type quality) can do their job for at least 60,000 miles with no problems. Why is Lincolns only good for 30,000 miles? Is this marketing hype to get Lincoln owners back to the dealer ore frequently? If Jag S class uses the same engines as the LS, why are their service intervals double the LS?
#3. BMW's handling/ride balance is legendary..has been for years and remains that way. Just read a review of the BMW 330i and it beat all the competetion, particularly in the handling/ride category. BMW continues to have a winning formula using MacPherson strut suspension, which is lighter and takes up less space than double wishbone. Which makes me wonder, why didnt the LS utilize struts? Sure, the aluminum wishbones are nice and purty to look at, and work well, but would the McPherson struts have worked just as well or better, while saving weight and being cheaper to produce?
#4. The review confirms our suspicions that the LS's performance does improve with mileage, as their test numbers showed slightly quicker times at 40,000 miles vs. new.
For $33,000 think a 5-speed manual LS6 Sport preferable all around. If only they were more available!
5/01 issue of Motor Trend tests 3.2TL Type S against 330i, A6 2.7T, MB C320, Saab 9.3 Viggen, and Volvo S60 T5. Of the 10 test criteria, the 3.2 finished first in only one, "value". Of their 6 testers, only one chose the 3.2 if spending their own money. Went 0-60 mph in 6.28 secs (3rd quickest), went 61.2 mph in their 600 ft slalom (dead last), and braked 60-0 in 127 feet (tied for last w/Audi & BMW). No tranny gear ratios given; turns over only 1750 RPMs at 60 mph (best figure) but gets only 18/24 EPA ratings (2nd worse, behind Audi).
12/00 C&D has a one-page short take report on 3.2CL (2-door coupe) Type S. Went 0-60 in 6.8 secs, pulled .82g, and a governed top speed of 146 mph. C&D compared it to a "digitally remastered Lincoln Mark VIII LSC--a pleasant, powerful grand tourer that remains a bit wanting." They then say it isn't quite up to BMW 3 Series.
1/01 R&T pits 3.2CL Type S versus 330Ci. Bimmer won. Published gear ratios interesting. This 3.2CL has a 4.43:1 final drive and .65:1 4th and .47:1 5th gear overdrives. Went 0-60 in 6.7 secs with est top speed of 147 mph. Pulled .80g.
I think the comparison to 3 Series is realistic given the price, capabilities, target markets, and existence of Jag S-type (which competes better with BMW 5 Series and MB E-class). In Omaha, Kansas City, St Louis, and Des Moines markets, I've never seen a new '00 or '01 328i or 330i with a sticker less than $36,000. They run from about $36-42K. All the 323is sticker for $32-38.
Dealer lot 528i/530i start in mid-$40K, with most pushing or well into $50K region. 540i nearly $60K. Thus Jag S-type 3.0L and 4.0L more natural against 5 Series.
Not sure I care about service intervals. Mfgr could say 10K miles and I'd still do LOF & rotate at 5K. At this price range, why skimp on routine maintenance?
The only way anyone could realistically and fairly compare the LS to the BMW 3 series is on price ALONE. The cars are significantly different in size, and IMHO, target market. When I tested vehicles two years ago, there was no way I could even conceive of buying a 3 series due to its small size and my need to carry passengers. My wife and I even deemed the 5 series to be too small for our needs. Only the LS and the Audi A6 (2.7T) met our size requirements. Since the base Audis are FWD, I would only consider their Quattro systems, which of course significantly adds to the sticker. Further, the base Audi A6 engine is a normally aspirated V6 that just cant get the A6 Quattro up to speed as fast as the LS8 ... hence my preference for the 2.7T option.
If you take price out of the equation and base comparisons only on mechanical aspects of the car, the LS competes with the BMW 5 series, A6 (w/Quattro), and Jag -type. IMHO, the LS to BMW3 series performance comparison is an apples to oranges thing.
There have been a several complaints on this board from LS owners who feel that their auto trannies down shift too easily from 5th to 4th. I feel just the opposite, that is I have to step on the gas too hard to get a 5-4 shift. I wonder if many of those complaining are really confusing the torque converter unlocking with a 5-4 downshift. It is very easy to get the torque converter to unlock when you are cruising in D5 just by giving it a little gas and it almost feels like a downshift. I think Dick C. may have even made a comment on this a long time ago. Once you figure out what's happening its real easy to distingish the unlock from a downshift.
I have just ordered a new mass air flow sensor from Granatelli Motorsports. It is a 80mm, 50-state legal, calibrated model that is a direct bolt-on to the factory airbox. The owner, JR, has a LS-8(had him check out the site!) and he said that the HP gain was 8hp and 10 ft-lbs. I should have it by next week and will report on the findings in the LLSOC Project LS-GT page.
Great news for the performance minded! What's the cost going to be for the sensor, and do you anticipate a LLSOC member discount? I'm also getting antsy for the final results of the Magnaflow project. Let's see . . . 252 HP + 8 HP for the mass air flow sensor + 10 HP for the Magnaflow Cat Back system = 270 HP. Not bad at all!
I based my above comments partially out of personal experience. Price is critical. Can't buy what I can't afford. Don't test or look at things I can't buy. When I went looking for an all around sport sedan in 12/99 I looked around everywhere and ended up trying to order a 3 Series, a moderately equipped 323i for about $32-33K. No matter how hard I tried, couldn't get decent price on new car or for trade. Tired and frustrated that Saturday afternoon wife and I happen to wander back to the Lincoln dealer just a stone's throw away, as part of a mega Porsche, Audi, VW, Mazada, Pontiac, & Hyundai dealer. Went there to re-look at Audi A4 & VW Passat. Saw this perfectly equipped and colored LS8 Sport. As a lark, we test drove. Really liked, so then negotiated a hard bargain, and had couple thousand dollars on my Ford Citibank rebate. That made it just barely affordable.
My loaded LS8 Sport with 6-disc CD and audiophile has about the same real useable interior and trunk space as the 3 Series, esp. as LS has the space intruding el-cheapo trunk hinges. I have 2 young kids. Performance stats for 323i manual or 328i auto similar to LS. Methinks they are comparable. I could've lived with either.
Price is $350 direct from Granatelli. Haven't worked on him yet for member pricing. This product is so new that there isn't any part number yet. They are building one for me.
Magnaflow is behind schedule on their production prototypes. They are estimating a mid-May date as of yesterday. I'm getting antsy too. I agree with your projections. I think 270 would be a good number that you could feel!
Brian: Are you planning on doing some track testing of the performance mods (i.e., timing your 0-60 & quarter mile runs)? In addition to your dyno testing, I think actual track time measurements would be useful to folks considering these enhancements.
Giowa: I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. While my wife and I could afford the BMW 3 and 5 series cars, they just didn't give us enough room, therefore, we didn't seriously consider either of them. While I place a premium on the performance aspects of a car, IMHO, the BMWs did not offer any significant performance advantage over the LS (except the 540 or M variants). As a matter of fact, I consider the LS to be superior to the 3 series for highway cruising. The 3 series is a significantly smaller car, and it behaves like a small, high performance sedan. I much preferred my 1990 300ZX to the 3 series, and these are comparable in size (weight, wheelbase). I wouldn't necessarily compare the 3 series to the Z because the BMW is a sedan, and the Z is a GT sports car, yet when the Z was in production, it was comparably priced to the 3 series. I would not consider the 3 series to be a comparable vehicle to the LS. Lincoln doesn't consider the 3 series to be a competitor, but does compare the LS with the 528. I have to agree with the Lincoln folks on this one.
I hate to burst the bubble here, but awhile ago I was a member of the v8sho.com mailing list. Those guys are quite a bit more performance-oriented and have done quite a bit with the 3rd Gen SHOs. Naturally, I wanted to upgrade my car to get all that "power". Everyone was brimming with numbers and talk of how cool it all was - but when I asked "when all is said and done, does ANYONE really notice the difference?". Then there were only mumbles and murmurs. Nobody could tell me that they really noticed any of it (believe me, I asked repeatedly!). That was all referring to intake/exhaust mod though - not such things as SC's or nitrous. I eventually just got a K&N cone filter to replace my air box. I didn't notice anything at all in day-to-day driving... except that when the second throttle body opens up, it gets a lot louder. Eventually, I found that it only noticeably affected my 60-100 mph acceleration. Plus you really have to work some mojo to reset your computer so it adapts quicker to the change.
I guess what I'm saying about mod is: - are they expensive? yes. - are you going to notice it? probably not.
With a dyno to test actual HP increases, I think Brian and the LLSOC can ascertain whether REAL and NOTICEABLE improvements can be made. I think the LLSOC Project GT car is a great way to evaluate any and all performance mods folks participating on this board would be interested in and willing to crack the wallet open for.
I for one can hardly wait for the cold, hard test results to come in! Further, considering the MAF is $350 and the Magnaflow Cat Back system should come in under $1,000, the prospect of gaining 18 HP for under $1,500 is exciting. I would also expect fuel mileage to improve as well.
1. Yes, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. You can agree with Lincoln and I'll pretty much end up agreeing with everyone else (e.g., automotive press). I'd bet that Jag executives, if they were free to speak candidly, would also agree with me. Doubt they consider LS a competitor to Jag S-type, which they view as competing with 5 Series & E-class.
2. You do have me absolutely confused in regard to the two following statements you made: (1) "I consider the LS to be superior to the 3 series for highway cruising." and (2) "it [the 3 series] behaves like a small, high performance sedan." If your primary expectation is highway cruising, you might consider TC or Continental, not to mention Cadillac DeVille, Buick Century or Chyrsler Concorde. I was looking for an all around high performance sport sedan, not a highway cruiser.
3. As for room, I wouldn't recommend trying to take a moderate to long family vacation in a '00 LS8 Sport w/6-disc and audiophile. Ain't no interior storage and trunk space is miniscule for the exterior bulk. I did it once, and don't want to again. I'm taking my '96 Impala SS with me to upstate NY and New Hampshire this summer.
I wasn't looking for a highway cruiser per se, but am merely pointing out that the LS is superior to the 3 series in this regard. As I stated earlier, I drove both the 328 and 528 series BMWs and didn't find their performance characteristics to be any better than the LS8 sport.
I do feel that the 3 series is an excellent automobile, it just doesn't/didn't meet my desires for the performance/price/capability tradeoffs requisite for my money.
Prior to my LS8 sport, I came out of a 1990 Nissan 300ZX 2-seater, so if you think I was looking for a highway cruiser, you must not be reading too closely. As far as "everyone" else is concerned, I think you may have annoyed quite a few folks that post on this board that agree with me. You clearly have a penchant for quoting the automotive press as if it were gospel (which it aint). I'd take your bet as far as what Jag executives would have to say.
BTW, I've taken several long family vacations in my LS, thank you very much. Quite comfortably I might add. I guess your needs are quite a bit different than mine when it comes to interior storage is concerned, not to mention what one brings along in the trunk.
Maybe our travel/vacation needs are different. When I go on a week-long vacation with wife and two kids, I have to take enough luggage for all to carry sufficient clothes to last everyone. Kids want to bring their portable CDs & games, books, toys, etc. Wife and I need to bring CDs. I like to have some big, detailed maps. They like to bring three pillows, and maybe a small blanket or two. We'd all like to bring home some nick nacks and souvenirs. If you have the above two options, you quickly find there isn't much space inside the car to keep anything in and the trunk doesn't help, esp. with the el-cheapo space eatin' trunk hinges. (At least the '01s have the power outlet in back seat. Now if they would just put discreet separate side reading lamps! The one big overhead in middle of rear doesn't cut it for night drivin'.)
Obviously you have better wife and kids than I do. You have convinced them to pack lightly, not bring anything along, or take anything back with them. What did Henny Youngman used to say? Something like "Take my wife, please!"
Comments
I may be completely out to lunch here, but there's a TSB regarding leaks from a line connected to the transmission cooler. I'm not even sure this is a water line; I don't know whether or not the tranny is cooled via the radiator.
Also, the TSB sites a very specific build-date range in April of 2000. (If not pertinent, put it down to me being clueless.:)) At any rate, here's the info:
Service Bulletin Number: 14190
Bulletin Sequence Number: 138
Date of Bulletin: 0006
NHTSA Item Number: SB613890
Make: LINCOLN
Model: LS
Year: 2000
Component: POWER TRAIN:TRANSMISSION:AUTOMATIC:COOLING UNIT AND LINES
Summary: SOME VEHICLES BUILT BETWEEN 04/01/2000 AND 04/24/2000 MAY EXHIBIT A FLUID LEAK AT THE RUBBER HOSE THAT ATTACHES THE COOLER LINE TO THE TRANSMISSION COOLER. *TT
JLinc, only SLIGHTLY anal-retentive ;-)
Come on Brian and Michael. Don't sugar coat it - tell us what you really thought of the Mark 9 and the Lincoln exhibit! ;-) Ugly as a Pontiac Aztec? The Batmobile? That would make your skin crawl, alright. I like the idea of an DEW platform coupe but the Mark 9 concept IS pretty hideous. Besides, it was built on the Town Car platform. YUK. In the pictures, the front end kinda reminds me of a Mercury Mountaineer. It gets worse from there.
Pinging
My early build LS exhibited some light pinging at 30 - 40 MPH but the original PCM reflash cured it. Obviously, 2001 models shouldn't need that. Pinging should be easily curable, though. You will lose some performance with low octane fuel but the engine management system should be able to retard the timing sufficently to eliminate pinging. Jeff's idea of a sensor is logical.
It finally happened this morning, hit the button, crunch, window freely slides up and down, but nothing happens when the control is pushed. Took it to the dealer and asked that both sides be fixed, so I will let you know if I have any luck. Also asked for the new transmission software, check my car for the ball joint recall and fix the speed volume control on the radio. Asked for a loaner (in the past always got a Lincoln LS or Conti), and was told that Thrifty now handles all the loaners for them. They wanted to give me a Corrola, but finally gave me a Dodge Intrepid. Seems to be a bad idea to put me in a different brand than what they sell. Mine is a June '99 build date.
Like several others, I noticed performance gains with added miles on the car. It was not as though suddenly at 5000 miles somebody gave it an extra 50 HP, but it did improve gradually over time - particularly in the 4000 - 6000 RPM range. I think maybe part of the improvement is due to the power curve of the engine. It develops its power at a higher RPM than I was accustomed to with my old 4.6 T-bird. A tight "green" engine doesn't like high RPMs. As the engine "loosens up" the RPMs come easier and you have better performance.
The current stock LS8 will never be really quick, IMHO. I think this engine would benefit from a displacement increase to fatten up the low-end torque and VVT to maintain the power over a broader range. Then, after those changes, we need a numerically lower OD ratio to improve cruising fuel economy. See, I am not asking for much!
Bruce
Their service is why I continue to drive somewhat out of my way to go back to that dealership.
When mine was pinging, they found that the exhaust manifold had a crack in it. It was louder when I would first start the car and then would get quieter as the manifold heated and expanded, closing the crack. They replaced both sides without me having to ask.
Bruno
Finally... I reached the 15,000 mile mark and changed to Mobil 1 Synthetic. My Duratec V6 runs VERY smoothly now. Yes, I can notice the difference. Any vibration that may have been there before is gone, its like the engine isn't even there at all.
Cabin Air Filter: Changed it in about a minute (very easy to do!)
Fuel Filter: Very simple to change! It is behind the black plastic liner in the front driver's side wheel well (rear piece.) probably didn't have to change it yet... just wanted to.
1. While the MK 9 was, in my opinion ugly, it did do its job and had tons of people checking it out and also generating traffic around the LSes.
2. The Lincoln product specialists, while not Lincoln folks, were very knowledgeable about the products. After two days, I appreciate how hard it is to stay on your feet for over 10 hours while maintaining a positive image.
3. Either LLSOC or Lincoln needs to build a manual transmission LS-8 to have on a show floor. Even if it never makes it into production, having one on a show floor will generate tons of buzz about the car. We're working on it.
4. Need to have a manual LS-6 Sport on the show floor. Just to prove that it really exists.
5. The top five questions asked of me at the show:
1. What is that, the new Continental?
2. When are they coming out with a manual V-8?
3. You can get a manual with the LS?
4. They going to increase the horsepower?
5. What's the Sport package have?
6. The product specialists thought that having LLSOC there talking about the LS was great! They hope we continue to be invited.
7. For whatever reason stealing ashtrays or cigarette lighters or anything that isn't nailed, screwed, or welded down must be good sport. Not sure what they do with these parts, but at least two of the LSes were missing these items by Saturday.
8. The NY Auto Show is the largest auto show, attendance-wise, in the country.
9. Ford had people from the Wixom plant in attendance. I showed the paint defect to one of them who said he would take the info. back to the paint shop manager.
10. Seems that, next to swiping stuff or seeing how many brochures of different cars you can possibly stuff into free bags, the next major sport at car shows is to get as many pictures taken of you sitting behind the steering wheel of different cars. If LLSOC could have charged money for the picture takers, we would have made a ton of money.
11. Richard, the booth manager, and his group, went out of their way to make us feel welcome and helped us stay out of trouble. He had LS specific brochures that we were able to hand out and told us all about the secrets(like where the employee lounge was so we didn't have to pay $3.00 for a soda).
12. Next to the product specialists, the hardest working group, had to be the car detailers, who were constantly waxing the cars to get rid of the dust and fingerprints.
All in all, a tiring but very interesting and rewarding adventure. I hope you all get a chance to experience the car show from our vantage point at some point. It is quite different.
Brian
P.S. Thanks to Tom and his wife for allowing the NJ LLSOC members to invade his home for major garage racing on Wed. It was a blast!
How far do you think Palm Desert, CA is from Gaithersburg? Sounds like you got a good one there. I could drive there for a major service but by the time I got back I would be ready for another service.
Brian
Lincoln needs to do what Cadillac did. Tune engine to run optimumly on 87 octane regular. If a 300 hp Northstar can, why can't ours?
(Here in tall corn land, when gas prices get past about $1.50/g I start alternating between 92/91 octane premium unleaded and 90 octane ethanol. The ethanol sells for about the same as the 87 octane regular; sometimes cheaper, sometimes a bit costlier, but always a lot less than premium. So far, I've never had any problems with limited ethanol.)
Anybody else think it looks a lot like the new T-Bird, only bigger?
4/13/01 issue of NY Times has a nice story on the 101st NY Intl Auto Show. Guessing story would be on their public web site. Opened 4/13/01 and runs for 10 days. Expect 1.2 million visitors. Takes over 2,500 workers to set up. Supposed to have about 960 cars and about 5.5 million pounds of exhibits. $9 for adults/$3 for kids under 12. Sounds quite impressive. I'm jealous of Brian and the others who got to help out. Sounds impressive, interesting, and fun!
You're right on the money with that one! (pun intended).
Every now and again a story will surface about the scandal and corruption surrounding the Jacob Javits Center. Please note that I am not anti-union. I come from a family of 2 generations of union plumbers. So, don't blame the workers. You need to make $50 an hour to live aound here.
Try to stop by every now and then on the Mercury Marauder chatbox. It's not very active (unfortunately, there's no car to see or drive until 2002, except for the autoshows), but we'd appreciate any insight that you could provide above and beyong the press releases.
One man's opinion: consider keeping the Mercury taillight treatment; you don't want to make the car look too plain or too much like a Crown Vic. (This is my opinion from photos only. I intend to see the car Thursday at the NY show.)
The LM execs ARE listening here. Its the salesmen and dealers who should put their "headphones" on. Despite the fact that there must be tens-of-thousands of LM dealers, salesmen, and mechanics in the world, only a couple have ever openly posted on these boards. There are more LM execs here then that.
I, for one, would appreciate the opportunity to have a dialogue with representatives from the dealers side of the story to get their perspectives and opinions on the issues that we discuss. There are, after all, always two sides to every story.
Joe
I think it was the Motor Trend long term test car that also had a coolant leak from a bad hose clamp. Certainly can't hurt to check it out if you can get to them. Can you get under the car? You might see the tell-tale trail of dried coolant. If it happens again, ask them to put the dye in the system which will show any leaks under black light. These things are weird and don't anyway show up with a pressure test. Some will only show when the engine is cold and some only when it's hot. It had to come from someplace.
I also drove on the hwy in 4th gear, regular auto V8 tranny and hit 120mph at just 400rpms. I didn't even switch to 5th. Too bad I had to slow down, but the car was rock solid and had plenty of power to give. Just makes me wonder how fast it can really go. Too bad I have the Continental series R rated 16inch tires (106mph rating). But I truly love how smoothly it accelerated to the speed and how rock solid it was, I felt very comfortable with the car.
Jeff
Thanks to all who post their problems, solutions and kudos. It all really helped me sort out the dealer "hype".
My family test drove a 2000 V8 LS for a couple hours. We decided not to but it because of two noises: wind around the doors and the '51mph drone'. While we had it, we looked carefully at the doors and my wife actually found the problem. (BTW, today she fixed the dishwasher! Diagnosed, found the worn parts, got the new ones and put em in all while I was at work! What a gal!) Anyway, the LS problem was definitely the door seals around 2 doors were improperly installed.
I'd suggest you look carefully at all the doors and compare the seals on a good, quiet door to those on the suspect door. What caught my wife's eye was dust and dirt that had snuck past the bad seal onto the door frame. The bad seals were crinkled and wrinkled and ... well, you'll know if they look wrong.
Oh, and where the heck do you (and others who've posted similar stories) find these roads where you can get to 120mph???
BTW, we did buy an LS: a 2001 V6 with a 5speed manual. We love it and all the door seals fit.!
ronniepooh;
If you've thought of this already, great, if not: could your coolant possibly be coming out of the overflow tube? That's certainly a possibility and one that is not too unusual. In fact, at the races in Irvine, one of our members' LSs leaked a bit of coolant out the overflow after a couple hard runs on the autocross course.
George
I too had a problem with my V8 sport, after 4 months of ownership. Took the family down to Palm Springs and after starting the car smelled a strange odor. Got out of the car and noticed a little coolant dripping. (didnt think anything of it since it was already 90 degrees at 9:30am and the air conditioning was running) while driving to breakfast the thermostat gauge climbed from normal to the top and the car basically shut itself down. It still was able to crawl to the nearest parking lot. Called Lincoln Roadside and they towed me to Palm Springs Motors. End result a faulty thermostat that stuck. Was told that if the thermostat runs high, the engine automatically purges the coolant. Dont know how true that is, the service advisor told me that. Dont know if that has anything to do with yours, but I thought I'd contribute my experience.
- Alex
Ps. All wasnt bad, Lincoln picked up the tab for an extra nights stay at the resort, meals and the rental car. Cars been fine since.
Heyjewel, thanks for the tip, I will check that out for sure. BTW, I just bought a new dishwasher, can I hire your wife to come install it ;-). Wish I could get my fiancee to put it in, but that would never happen, she might mess her nails up.
As for the speed, I thought it was always customary to go excessively fast past the Highway Patrol stations. Their radar guns only go to 100mph right? ...just kidding. You probably never get a chance to open up your ride with all that traffic and windy roads in northern cali. But I bet the Hwy 17 and 9 drives are real nice in the ride, which I am assuming you have done. I have done both on my motorcycle when I used to live up that way.
Jeff
Lincoln: One Word. VVT. Put the Jag heads on the LS for 2003. Jag buyers wont care if the LS has the same HP.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/RoadAndTrack/article_new/first_drives/0401_acura_32_tl_type_s.html
I realize this review was mentioned a few weeks ago, but this is my first time really reading it thoroughly, and had some comments:
#1. Why do these reviewers insist on comparing the EPA rated Mid-Sized LS with the EPA rated Compact (Subcompact?) BMW 328i? Is price the only factor they consider when doing a comparison? The LS's interior space is not only larger than the BMW 5 series, but larger than the BMW 7 series! Sure, the 328 is a great car, but after I sat in one at the dealership, ruled it out because it was only marginally larger than my previous car, the E36 chassis BMW. They give the LS a knock because it pulled .01g less on the skidpad than the 328. Thats a GREAT thing, considering the size of the LS. They also state that the sport suspension on the 328 is tuned better than the LS sport suspension because of a degradation in ride quality on the LS. Of course the suspension is going to have to be tuned a bit firm to get a large car the ability to generate those great skidpad numbers.
#2. Anyone else here think that the LS's servicing intervals are excessively frequent? If BMW's Porsches, and Mercedes can go 15,000 to 18,000 miles between oil changes, and people can still get upwards of 150,000 to 200,000 miles on those engines, why cant Lincoln? Ditto for the filter changes. Most modern fuel filters (at least ones of BMW type quality) can do their job for at least 60,000 miles with no problems. Why is Lincolns only good for 30,000 miles? Is this marketing hype to get Lincoln owners back to the dealer ore frequently? If Jag S class uses the same engines as the LS, why are their service intervals double the LS?
#3. BMW's handling/ride balance is legendary..has been for years and remains that way. Just read a review of the BMW 330i and it beat all the competetion, particularly in the handling/ride category. BMW continues to have a winning formula using MacPherson strut suspension, which is lighter and takes up less space than double wishbone. Which makes me wonder, why didnt the LS utilize struts? Sure, the aluminum wishbones are nice and purty to look at, and work well, but would the McPherson struts have worked just as well or better, while saving weight and being cheaper to produce?
#4. The review confirms our suspicions that the LS's performance does improve with mileage, as their test numbers showed slightly quicker times at 40,000 miles vs. new.
5/01 issue of Motor Trend tests 3.2TL Type S against 330i, A6 2.7T, MB C320, Saab 9.3 Viggen, and Volvo S60 T5. Of the 10 test criteria, the 3.2 finished first in only one, "value". Of their 6 testers, only one chose the 3.2 if spending their own money. Went 0-60 mph in 6.28 secs (3rd quickest), went 61.2 mph in their 600 ft slalom (dead last), and braked 60-0 in 127 feet (tied for last w/Audi & BMW). No tranny gear ratios given; turns over only 1750 RPMs at 60 mph (best figure) but gets only 18/24 EPA ratings (2nd worse, behind Audi).
12/00 C&D has a one-page short take report on 3.2CL (2-door coupe) Type S. Went 0-60 in 6.8 secs, pulled .82g, and a governed top speed of 146 mph. C&D compared it to a "digitally remastered Lincoln Mark VIII LSC--a pleasant, powerful grand tourer that remains a bit wanting." They then say it isn't quite up to BMW 3 Series.
1/01 R&T pits 3.2CL Type S versus 330Ci. Bimmer won. Published gear ratios interesting. This 3.2CL has a 4.43:1 final drive and .65:1 4th and .47:1 5th gear overdrives. Went 0-60 in 6.7 secs with est top speed of 147 mph. Pulled .80g.
Dealer lot 528i/530i start in mid-$40K, with most pushing or well into $50K region. 540i nearly $60K. Thus Jag S-type 3.0L and 4.0L more natural against 5 Series.
Not sure I care about service intervals. Mfgr could say 10K miles and I'd still do LOF & rotate at 5K. At this price range, why skimp on routine maintenance?
I was so annoyed by it that I converted my non-sport V8 to SST. Problem corrected. (Only when in SST mode)
If you take price out of the equation and base comparisons only on mechanical aspects of the car, the LS competes with the BMW 5 series, A6 (w/Quattro), and Jag -type. IMHO, the LS to BMW3 series performance comparison is an apples to oranges thing.
Brian
My loaded LS8 Sport with 6-disc CD and audiophile has about the same real useable interior and trunk space as the 3 Series, esp. as LS has the space intruding el-cheapo trunk hinges. I have 2 young kids. Performance stats for 323i manual or 328i auto similar to LS. Methinks they are comparable. I could've lived with either.
Magnaflow is behind schedule on their production prototypes. They are estimating a mid-May date as of yesterday. I'm getting antsy too. I agree with your projections. I think 270 would be a good number that you could feel!
Brian
Giowa: I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. While my wife and I could afford the BMW 3 and 5 series cars, they just didn't give us enough room, therefore, we didn't seriously consider either of them. While I place a premium on the performance aspects of a car, IMHO, the BMWs did not offer any significant performance advantage over the LS (except the 540 or M variants). As a matter of fact, I consider the LS to be superior to the 3 series for highway cruising. The 3 series is a significantly smaller car, and it behaves like a small, high performance sedan. I much preferred my 1990 300ZX to the 3 series, and these are comparable in size (weight, wheelbase). I wouldn't necessarily compare the 3 series to the Z because the BMW is a sedan, and the Z is a GT sports car, yet when the Z was in production, it was comparably priced to the 3 series. I would not consider the 3 series to be a comparable vehicle to the LS. Lincoln doesn't consider the 3 series to be a competitor, but does compare the LS with the 528. I have to agree with the Lincoln folks on this one.
Naturally, I wanted to upgrade my car to get all that "power". Everyone was brimming with numbers and talk of how cool it all was - but when I asked "when all is said and done, does ANYONE really notice the difference?". Then there were only mumbles and murmurs. Nobody could tell me that they really noticed any of it (believe me, I asked repeatedly!). That was all referring to intake/exhaust mod though - not such things as SC's or nitrous.
I eventually just got a K&N cone filter to replace my air box. I didn't notice anything at all in day-to-day driving... except that when the second throttle body opens up, it gets a lot louder. Eventually, I found that it only noticeably affected my 60-100 mph acceleration.
Plus you really have to work some mojo to reset your computer so it adapts quicker to the change.
I guess what I'm saying about mod is:
- are they expensive? yes.
- are you going to notice it? probably not.
Disenheartening, I know...
(stupid "spell checker" grrr!)
I for one can hardly wait for the cold, hard test results to come in! Further, considering the MAF is $350 and the Magnaflow Cat Back system should come in under $1,000, the prospect of gaining 18 HP for under $1,500 is exciting. I would also expect fuel mileage to improve as well.
2. You do have me absolutely confused in regard to the two following statements you made: (1) "I consider the LS to be superior to the 3 series for highway cruising." and (2) "it [the 3 series] behaves like a small, high performance sedan." If your primary expectation is highway cruising, you might consider TC or Continental, not to mention Cadillac DeVille, Buick Century or Chyrsler Concorde. I was looking for an all around high performance sport sedan, not a highway cruiser.
3. As for room, I wouldn't recommend trying to take a moderate to long family vacation in a '00 LS8 Sport w/6-disc and audiophile. Ain't no interior storage and trunk space is miniscule for the exterior bulk. I did it once, and don't want to again. I'm taking my '96 Impala SS with me to upstate NY and New Hampshire this summer.
I do feel that the 3 series is an excellent automobile, it just doesn't/didn't meet my desires for the performance/price/capability tradeoffs requisite for my money.
Prior to my LS8 sport, I came out of a 1990 Nissan 300ZX 2-seater, so if you think I was looking for a highway cruiser, you must not be reading too closely. As far as "everyone" else is concerned, I think you may have annoyed quite a few folks that post on this board that agree with me. You clearly have a penchant for quoting the automotive press as if it were gospel (which it aint). I'd take your bet as far as what Jag executives would have to say.
BTW, I've taken several long family vacations in my LS, thank you very much. Quite comfortably I might add. I guess your needs are quite a bit different than mine when it comes to interior storage is concerned, not to mention what one brings along in the trunk.
To each his own!
Maybe our travel/vacation needs are different. When I go on a week-long vacation with wife and two kids, I have to take enough luggage for all to carry sufficient clothes to last everyone. Kids want to bring their portable CDs & games, books, toys, etc. Wife and I need to bring CDs. I like to have some big, detailed maps. They like to bring three pillows, and maybe a small blanket or two. We'd all like to bring home some nick nacks and souvenirs. If you have the above two options, you quickly find there isn't much space inside the car to keep anything in and the trunk doesn't help, esp. with the el-cheapo space eatin' trunk hinges. (At least the '01s have the power outlet in back seat. Now if they would just put discreet separate side reading lamps! The one big overhead in middle of rear doesn't cut it for night drivin'.)
Obviously you have better wife and kids than I do. You have convinced them to pack lightly, not bring anything along, or take anything back with them. What did Henny Youngman used to say? Something like "Take my wife, please!"