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Isuzu Axiom

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  • twocartwocar Member Posts: 95
    Well, as expected and with 17k on the tires...the Goodyear Intergritys are horrible. I mean I can move along fine, but would slide and slip a tad left to right on iced curves going slow vs. other vehicle. I could also notice the engagement of the TOD under just above moderate acceleration from a stop in slush. Guess the difference here is that the TOD has to sense slippage whereas a true part-time 4WD delivers torque to all 4 wheels all the time while locked. Just some observations.
  • sbcookesbcooke Member Posts: 2,297
    you are correct about TOD. If you stomp on the gas you can also get the rear end to easily whip around. Because the rears get the power first, then slip and send it to the front, so essentially the back is travelling faster than the front. In order to fully benefit from the TOD system, I think you need to back off the gas a little in those situations, then it can help you pull out of a spin as opposed to helping it.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    Why doesn't Isuzu include a part time 4WD setting with TOD? It seems like the system could handle it since it is capable of 4Low. Is there a limitation with the TOD system in which 4Hi would damage it? (not including limitations of people using 4Hi on dry pavement creating binding problems)
  • twocartwocar Member Posts: 95
    I dunno. Looks like they could've made it 2Hi/TOD/4HI/4LO. Of course, I guess the geniuses at the automobile manufacturers figure so many options would be a recipe for trouble and they are probably right. Some folks would probably ride around all day on dry pavement in 4-Hi instead of 2Hi or TOD. But seems Ford has something like Auto and 4Hi and 4Lo in its Explorer. I may be wrong but seems you could get it with that option and the lock up feature on a website I was looking at. Makes you wonder if the 4Lo is truly locking up or just lower gearing that does more of the same with slippage.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    I think it is true 4Low with 50/50 split. Just from Axiomlover's experiences on how it tracks just fine in 4Low seems to support that. Plenty of other people have mention similar experiences as well.

    You are probably right, Isuzu probably just figured that the average person wouldn't know the difference between using a 4Hi feature and TOD and didn't want to give people the opportunity of mixing it up. It would be definitely nice to have though when the roads to get really bad though. 4Low is fine, but of course you need to pull over and put it in neutral to shift into it. That said, on several trips to the Sierras last year I didn't have any issues with TOD on steep snowy roads. The system worked great.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No need for 4-hi IMHO.

    If the conditions dictate that you need to have a full 50/50 lock of the transfer case, you can run in 4-low in "D" and get up to ~40mph w/o problems. Over 40mph you should not need to be running in full-lock 50/50 so 4-hi is kinda useless combined with the average Joe who would drive around on dry pavement in 4-hi. Most of the people on here are more car savy/gadget savy to know not to do it but you'd be suprised what some people out in the world will do.

    -mike

    PS: I'm working on an override to provide 4-hi, I'll let you know how it works out if I ever finish it.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    4Low and TOD are sufficient for practically any road condition. It would just be a little more convenient to beable to shift directly into a 4Hi on snow and ice covered roads instead of pulling over to put it in 4Low. I will be interested in hearing about your 4Hi overide if you figure it out.

    So there isn't anything inherent with the TOD system to limit such a 4Hi feature? Its just an issue with Isuzu not installing such a switch?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think that the problem with 4-hi would be that the gearset isn't setup for it. The way the Torque Converter works is that it locks in 4-low in the traditional way, but TOD works with a wet-clutch pack varying clutch pressure. Most of the time it's not at the 50/50 lock position. I think if you ran it in 4-hi @ 50-50 lock it would burn out those wet clutchs over time. That is the only reason I can see against such a system.

    On the "auto-4wd" systems you see in the GM and Ford versions, there is no wet-clutch pack and no "variable" torque, it's either 0/100 F/R split or when enough slip is detected it acts as if you hit the 4-hi button and goes right to 50/50 lock w/o the clutch packs engaging. That is why those auto-4wd systems seem to bang in when they activate and you see wheel spin on them when they engage.

    -mike
  • sbcookesbcooke Member Posts: 2,297
    4Hi is more convenient for a lot of offroad conditions however. TOD is sufficient...but for example it struggles in deep sand. On the road, snow and wet conditions I really like TOD. Offroad I wish I had 4Hi.

    TOD uses clutches to distribute power to the front. 4Hi would be locking the center differential.
  • twocartwocar Member Posts: 95
    Just so I'm clear...are you saying you can run 4LO in the Ax up to 40 mph? I thought that was a "creeper" geared setting for like going no more than 10 mph.
  • sbcookesbcooke Member Posts: 2,297
    I have been up to 30 or so in 4LO on the beach. It revs pretty high and when you come off the gas you slow quickly. Typically I don't go over 20 in 4LO.

    Also, in most 4LO scenario's, you would probably put much more at risk at 40MPH than the transmission and speed...i.e. obstacles, rocks, etc.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    Interesting. So let me see if I understand this correctly. When in 4Low, there is a direct mechanical coupling between the front wheels and the engine through a gear set.

    When in TOD, a clutch is used to distibute engine power to the front which is why there can be a continous distribution between 0 and 50%. So, if the TOD system inherently sends 15% to the front under normal driving, the clutch would be slipping all of the time. When the rear wheels slip and 50% power is distributed to the front, is the clutch just slipping less or is it not slipping at all? I probably don't understand how a wet clucth works compared to a normal manual transmission clutch, but normally there is a lot more wear on the clutch when is slips as opposed to being completely engaged.

    How is pressure applied to the clutch in this type of system.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    But I think it's the angle of the gearset or something, very fuzzy in my recollection, but basically I think it's like an inverse type clutch perhaps? perhaps it's like the mechanical clutches that work in a rear LSD?

    I'll see if there is a better description in the Trooper Helms Manual tonight for us to examine.

    -mike
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    looking forward to what else you can find out.

    Thanks
  • sbcookesbcooke Member Posts: 2,297
    me too. I have wondered about prolonged use of the TOD system and clutch life. I think it is also an electromagnetic clutch...I don't know if that has different wear tendancies than a "wet" clutch.
  • cmunizcmuniz Member Posts: 604
    As I understand it you can use all four gears (1,2,3 or D) when you are in 4LO so the speed is not limited to just 10mph. I routinely switch from 1 to 2 and sometimes 3 when I'm using 4LO. It provides a lot of flexibility in really poor driving conditions. I have never had it in D, but no reason it wouldn't work. In the early Trooper mechanical 4WD that didn't have TOD you were restricted to using just first gear when you engaged the low range - no longer restricted with the Axiom TOD.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Actually even with the PT 4wd systems you could use D in 4-lo, the only difference is that since the gear ratio is lower, your going to be cranking something liek 2.38 times the RPMs @ the same MPH. So for instance @ 80mph I crank usually 2800-2900rpms in 4th, with 4-lo it would be about ~7000. (what's our redline again?)

    -mike
  • lestatdeleon1lestatdeleon1 Member Posts: 16
    Was repaired on time, and I have my axiom back. Sounds much better now. Was glad that I did only have to go without it for 2 days.

    Apparently the fan had come almost complete loose? 33k miles and the first somewhat major repair...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Wow, I don't consider a clutch fan major. Major is like an engine job, lifters, transmission!

    I guess those could be called catastrophic though.

    -mike
  • lestatdeleon1lestatdeleon1 Member Posts: 16
    Minor - Take my vehicle in the morning, get it back the same day

    Major - Take my vehicle in get it 3 days later

    Catastrophic - Without my vehicle for 1 week or more.

    At least that would be my definition. Wouldn't be as big of a deal if I had gotten a loner car, but no such luck. However, You can't expect that with an Isuzu, which is fine.

    Love the vehicle, it has been my favorite so far (and I've had about 15 vehicles in my not so long driving career)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well any replacement part will be at least 1 working day since most dealers don't stock the parts that you usually break! Glad it was an easy fix though. The Trailblazers had a similar problem with their fan clutch but it's computer controlled so the dealers keep/kept telling them "there are no codes so we can't fix a problem that doesn't exist in the computer"

    -mike
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    TOD is great in most conditions, but today I realized a situation where I would have benefited from a Hi-4. I was making a sharp left turn from standing in the middle of an intersection, waiting for oncoming traffic to pass. While standing, the wheels were turned left and when I hit the accelerator the vehicle span 180 degrees. There was a patch of ice that I was standing on and the front wheels did not get a grip thru TOD until it was too late. It scared me quite a bit (and my wife). I guess I need to be more careful going forward.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Would have done the trick in that situation you were not in the speed range where you'd need 4-hi.

    -mike
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    You might try using the winter mode button if you find yourself in a similar situation. You would be less likely to spin out since you would start in 3rd gear and most likely TOD would have enough time to send power to the front to help pull you through a tight turn like that. Just a thought.
  • libertycatlibertycat Member Posts: 593
    I own a Volvo V70 and am saving money to also buy an Axiom. What great styling this car has! The front seats have plenty of room and the 6-disc in-armrest cd changer isn't in the dash like my 4-disc in-dash cd changer but it does hold 2 more cds. I want Blond Gray with the tan interior, but since the gray interior arrived, Blond Gray isn't available with tan. I would unfortunately have to get the tan interior and paint the exterior Blond Gray. I am an "Axiomlover" also! By the way, in my whole lifetime I have seen 3 Axioms and 0 Isuzu commercials or advertisements. I saw an Axiom a month ago in San Diego, a year ago in Sequoia, and a year and a half ago in Bend, Oregon.
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    You are right, the winter mode would be a good choice, but the problem is that in most instances we don't know when we need it. If it is snowing or raining, sure, but if the road is black but there is some icing on a bridge, we don't often realize that the tire grip is weak. I was totally caught by surprise!

    I am still witnessing ingnorance in terms of public's awareness of the existence of Axiom. I have recently pulled into a Daewoo/GM dealership (to get some parts for my wife's car) and the salespeople were asking me what I was driving. Some even went outside to look at the truck. They admitted it looked really sharp but said they had not seen one before. Similar experience with Mazda dealer, where I stopped recently to check out the new 6 model. Again, public awareness is the key. I can't believe Isuzu did not realize it.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You can thank GM for neutering the Isuzu ad campaigns.

    -mike
  • icedog97icedog97 Member Posts: 141
    We just purchased our Blonde-Grey 4WD Axiom about a month ago. We paid less than invoice and were able to take advantage of the 6 year 0% option. The only drawback was that ours has the tan interior (but it is now a non factor after driving the car for a month).

    Now...this may make some people cringe, but we bought it as my wife's car (I can see the looks now...another Axiom as a SMV!) and so far we are very pleased. We both feel its a safe vehicle for any road condition she could enocunter and it offers all of the praticality of an SUV...well that's what it is...or is it a truck..or a wagon...hmmm...whos cares!

    There are many positives...strong acceleration (even without the power mode), good road manners/handling (aside from some of the jittery stuff mentioned in other messages), good build quality, good interior space, good climate control, great powertrain warranty...

    I would rate the negatives in this order...fuel economy (about 13 mpg in city and 18.5 on highway...we do mostly city and the weather has been cold and snowy so our average is about 15 right now), occasional jittery ride, rear window does not open/lift (we have 2 dogs..this would make getting them out easier), lack of bass on factory stereo...

    As you can see (aside from the fuel economy) my negatives are relatively less important than the positives...which is why we bought one.

    We factored the resale value into consideration and decided this is our car for the next 6 years. So far, we are very happy with our decision.

    I enjoyed reading the board...keep up the informative dialogue.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    Congrats on your Axiom. Expect your highway mileage to improve. I usually drive 70-80 mph and between 19.5 and 20.5 mpg. The MID display is usually +- 1/2 mpg to the real mpg. My best mileage was 21.5 mpg at a steady speed of 65. Most of those trips were during summer months and so I had the AC on as well.

    My citty mileage is about the same as yours, but I live in a pretty hilly place and so I believe my city mileage is lower than what other people experience.
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    Welcome to Axiom family. Do you by any chance live in Chicago? I am asking because I have recently seen a blond Axiom for the first time in the neighborhood.
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    What brand of fluid/oil would be best to replace the one in rear axle on a 4WD Axiom? Is there a difference between fluids for limited slip differentials and unlimited s. d.?

    Thanks for any info.
  • icedog97icedog97 Member Posts: 141
    No, I live in Pittsburgh.

    Unfortunately for me (and my MPG) there are a lot of hills. In fact, if all I did was drive in and out of my housing plan, I'd probably average about 10 mpg!!! (or less!!!)

    BTW...I have only ever seen two other Axioms...

    I saw a post a little while back about recommended tires...so far the Integrity's have been decent, but I too was wondering what other people have/like. I have a while to go before I'll need new tires (only 960 miles on the vehicle now) but it never hurts to survey. I'd be looking for the best combo of traction and ride comfort...let me know what you guys think.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    I still have my Integrity's on my Axiom. It seems people say they are decent until about 20K miles and then traction gets pretty poor. I live in the SF Bay area and we have been getting a lot of rain lately and I haven't had any trouble with traction.

    I will replace mine at about 20K miles (now I have 9K)with michelin cross-terrains. People seem to love the performance of these tires under both wet and icy conditions. They are expensive though, last time I priced them they were $143 per tire. Go to tirerack.com and check out owner ratings, they are all positive.

    I know what you mean about the hills. The minimum displayed MPG on the MID is 6mpg and I am always seeing that figure as I drive the hills here. Luckily, what goes up must come down and so the mileage is better than that.
  • sveltaxsveltax Member Posts: 72
    If we get 75 series tires, can the dealer reprogram the speedo to read correctly for the new diameter of the tires? After my desert adventure I think a lift is in store for my AX.
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    I concur with poor mileage in hilly or congested areas. Although Chicago is flat, I barely exceed 30 mph when commuting thru the "rush hour." If it weren't for occasional highway driving, I would be getting economy in the neighborhood of 11 mpg. My average city/highway is usually around 12.5 - 13 mpg. You may think it's bad, but my wife's Leganza, rated at 20 mpg in the city, achieves only 16.5 mpg under similar driving conditions.

    I recently reset the MID avg. fuel consumption meter after entering highway and tried to drive as economically as possible for about 15 miles. Not exceeding 60 mph, my avg. fuel consumption was 23.6 mpg. I noticed that wind has a strong influence on fuel economy as do side mirrors, which folded would attribute to fuel consumption decrease of about 1 mpg at 70mph. It seems to me that Axiom would benefit from a 5-speed automatic transmission because at 60 mph I get 2,250 rpm and with 230 lb/ft of torque, the engine could easily cruise the vehicle at 1,750 rpm, which would probably help fuel economy. How about an Axiom with a 6-speed manual transmission? I bet that would be fun to drive!
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    I have recently read labels on transaxle oil bottles and some of them said that an additive may be necessary to prevent "chatter noise" in 4WD systems. Do you guys know what that chatter noise is and what oil to use to prevent it?
  • sveltaxsveltax Member Posts: 72
    I had Michelins on my last SUV and got 65K of mileage out of them. They are flatter and wider than usually specified. The replacement tire I purchased (235/75 15 on my Jimmy) where Dunlap and they had a much beafier tread compared to the Michelin.
  • sveltaxsveltax Member Posts: 72
    They are 235/65 17 series tires. Saw them at the XC90 test drive. Look like some capable tires. Just looked at the Cross Terrains and it looks like they added an additional sidewall tread. I'll have to revisit the subject in February.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    There is no way to re-configure the speedo unfortunately :( at least no one has figured out how to do in on the Rodeo or Trooper 4L30 Trannies.

    -mike
  • libertycatlibertycat Member Posts: 593
    I have been looking carefully every time I step out of my house for Axioms and in newspapers and on TV I watch for Isuzu ads, but I've seen no ads at all and 3 Axioms in the past few years. It's very sad since Axioms are the best styled vehicles ever. Too bad Toyota doesn't make the Axiom. Then it would be heavily advertised for sure.
  • sbcookesbcooke Member Posts: 2,297
    Paisan and speedo in the same post make me very nervous!
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    sbcooke, that's really funny!!!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Nice! Me and a speedo do NOT go together! I'm happy to announce you will NEVER see me in a speedo! :)

    -mike
  • twocartwocar Member Posts: 95
    Some of you may recall I had concerns about the Integrity tires. Well, whether or not they are a capable tire...the Ax's 4x4 capabilities appear to be intact. I had to test it out on some snow/ice/mud. I got good and stuck with the rear wheels in a little indention off the road to where I was effectively stuck in 2Hi. Rocking or slow accel did not help at all due to the rear wheels being in this little crevice. I engaged TOD...and was instantly out. I had to try it again and get stuck even worse so I charged backward and was driving it in a mess when I realized I was floating to the right into some brush which I was afraid would scratch the hell out of my Ax. I stopped and then flipped the switch to 4Lo. No problem again. Almost disappointed me to see how effortless it was for the Ax. Got good and muddy...front and rear fenders, wheel wells, side mirrors, etc. totally muddied up.
  • axiomloveraxiomlover Member Posts: 216
    How cool! I can't wait to get my sparkling clean black Axiom all muddied up. I am still searching for a 4x4 off road track around Chicago, but I've been unsuccessful so far.
  • sveltaxsveltax Member Posts: 72
    Hit the trails with my Bro and GPS during an off road race. Got some great video and a torn bumper. My Bro and I were trying to find a way out of a dry river bed, there was a natural berm that looked driveable. Didn't see the drop off from the berm to the access road. As I crested the berm (my AX is 2wd) with speed we dipped the left front into a gully. Only a few crapes on the left bumper down by the tow hook punchout. Tore the bumper where it attaches to the left front corner panel. There was a lip that I was able to push the torn bumper under and one cannot see the damage except for a white line. I should have taken a picture but I was really bummed at the time. We passed the stuck 2wd toyota that was messing around in the dry river bed as we took off to another area of the race course.
    The next fun section was a steep climb with large ruts where the wheels usually go. I hit it with a little speed and kept to the left of the ruts, one wheel in the center and one on the left burm. As we crested the hill we see 3 off roaders that had skirted the climb rather than get stuck. I wanted to poke my head out and ask it they'd gone around that small climb? The Bro and I had a great time, the AX really impressed him! I'm now wishing I had a 4X4.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    Some impressive 4wheelin stories lately. Glad to hear them.

    Anyway, I was searching around the web for more information about the TOD system and came across this PDF file from Borg-Warner. There is a very brief description about the TOD system, but it says there are 4 available modes.

    2Hi
    4Hi
    TOD AWD
    4Low

    Granted, this file is from 1998 so they may have determined the system couldn't handle 4Hi for long periods of time as Paisan suggested, but I also still wonder if Isuzu decided not to offer 4Hi to keep uninformed consumers from running 4Hi on dry pavement. The info is on page 6 at the following link:

    www.bwauto.com/pdf/bwa1998.pdf

    Paisan, anymore details you can share with us regarding the clutch setup in the TOD unit?
  • icedog97icedog97 Member Posts: 141
    I have been monitoring the computerized suspension of our Axiom over the past month and I wanted to take a poll to see if anyone else has noticed what I have.

    We drive in the "comfort" mode 90% of the time but I have noticed that sometimes it seems like the ax might be in the "sport" mode. Has anyone else noticed this?

    I thought it might be when the car is cold, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Tonight we took the car to an Xmas party and on the way there (the ax was in the garage before we left) the ride seemed a little harsher than on the way home (after the car had been sitting outside in 35 degree weather for 3 hours). We traveled the same roads both ways.

    Maybe it's just me, but I have noticed this at times and was just wondering if anyone else has.

    I even purposefully went over some rougher spots on the way home, and it seemed fine.

    Just to clarify too...even though it was a party, I didn't have anything to drink (I figure someone will read this and say, "Yeah, after a couple of drinks everything seems smoother!").

    Let me know what you think...
  • cmunizcmuniz Member Posts: 604
    When we first got the Axiom I put it in "comfort" mode most of the time. I found that it was ok for most conditions, but it would act unpredictably when the road got real rough - bouncing more than I thought was necessary. The last six months I have kept it in "sport" mode and like that better. It feels more consistent. Having said all that, I think there is a disconnect between the software and the shocks. In my opinion, they are not synchronized which causes excessive bounce when the sensors detect different conditions. It seems the computer is sending multiple messages before the shocks have finished reacting to the last message. I only use "comfort" mode on highway trips where the road surface is more uniform.

    As for your experience, it may be that the software is expecting the same reaction from the shocks in all temperature ranges when in fact they react slower in cold weather resulting in a harsher ride
  • twocartwocar Member Posts: 95
    Mine has always seemed to be consistent with over 17k on it. In "comfort" mode it seems too soft and in "sport" more predictable but a little too harsh on rough roads. Sounds like Icedog97's is backwards insofar as weather. You would think in cold it would be more harsh than in warm after the components would have time to expand instead of being contracted due to cold.
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