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Which Hatchback?

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  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    The reason I mention the Vibe and not the Matrix is the employee pricing promotion. I drove the Vibe Friday and it was average as far as power goes: No rocket, but seems fine off the line. The dealer prices on the windows reflecting the dealer pricing (plus, perhaps, some dealer participation) showing AT models in the low 17s. If there was a Corolla hatchback, btw, it would be on my list. Matrix/Vibe is as close as it gets.

    I checked the Mazda website and it says the Mazda6 5-door starts at $22,655; Add an AT and I can't imagine getting below $18k. Lease rates don't enter into it because I am looking to buy for the long term.

    As for some other random quotes by folks:

    The Reno looks pretty cool, but if you believe Car and Driver it looks a lot better than it acts with sloppy handling and a rubbery transmission.
    It seemed fine with the AT I drove. And I liked the handling. I'm willing to sacrifice on road feel a bit, as long as the car is predictable, if not stellar, in the corners. The Reno felt perfect to me, actually. The handling is what impressed me. Handling is very subjective parameter. The most objective definition is the slalom times, but a lot of the time the car that gives you that also makes you pay every time you run over a pebble.

    I think you've also forgotten the Chevy Aveo (also a Daewoo product, but a product sold by Chevy might be better off than one sold by Suzuki...).
    Actually, I thought the Aveo and Aerio are on the same (Suzuki) chassis, and everything else Suzuki sells in the U.S. is Daewoo? When I went to a Chevy dealer and asked about an AT Aveo, he said there wasn't one. Perhaps he was just talking about his dealer stock, but I thought he meant Aveo didn't come in an AT. Checking their website, I see one is available.

    also on its way soon should be the new Honda Fit, which will slot in below the Civic.
    Yep. If they use the UK name, it will be called the Jazz. If I wait long enough, that may be an option, but hard to tell how it will cost out.

    The new Rio is supposed to be Accent-based... it's closer to the wagon-like design of hatches, like the Protege5, Aerio, Spectra5, xA, etc. rather than the Accent's current coupe/hatch design. Dunno if you consider that a good thing or not, Doohickie.
    As long as the rear window opens as part of the hatch, that's all I care about.

    And it's weird how the Aveo gets worse mileage than the Vibe....
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If I were you I'd stay away from the Aveo. For not much more money you could get a Reno or Elantra GLS 5-door, which IMO are far superior cars compared to the Aveo.

    If you can wait until this fall to buy, you can pick up a Mazda6i 5-door automatic for under $18k. Last fall there were big rebates on the 5-door, and dealer discounts were generous also.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    "Actually, I thought the Aveo and Aerio are on the same (Suzuki) chassis, and everything else Suzuki sells in the U.S. is Daewoo? When I went to a Chevy dealer and asked about an AT Aveo, he said there wasn't one. Perhaps he was just talking about his dealer stock, but I thought he meant Aveo didn't come in an AT. Checking their website, I see one is available."

    The Aveo and the Aerio are two totally different cars on totally different chassis. The Aveo is a Daewoo. It is built in S. Korea. It is on the much revised Lano chassis. It uses a GM Holden engine. The Aerio is made by Suzuki in Japan. It is built on the Cletus/Baleno/Esteem chassis which dates back to 1995.It uses a Suzuki designed and built engine. It's cams are chain driven which means no 60000 mile, five hundred dollar service.

    Typical Chevy dealer. "Lets get you in something bigger. For just a few thousand more we can put you in this Beautiful blah blah blah blah..." Of course the Aveo has a automatic transmission available... We are in the land of shiftless people. It has to have one.

    We are getting about 38mpg in our Matrix. We bought it over the vibe because there is a bit more room behind the rear seat in the Matrix. Or so I'm told. "Yes dear"
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Does anyone know how the Vibe/Matrix deal came about? It seems like such an unholy union.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    Not really. There have been other Corollas sold with GM badging in the past, such as the 1980-something resurrection of the Nova, which was nearly indistinguishable from the Corollas of that same period, except for the front end cap.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    The Aveo and the Aerio are two totally different cars on totally different chassis. The Aveo is a Daewoo. It is built in S. Korea. It is on the much revised Lano chassis. It uses a GM Holden engine. The Aerio is made by Suzuki in Japan. It is built on the Cletus/Baleno/Esteem chassis which dates back to 1995.It uses a Suzuki designed and built engine. It's cams are chain driven which means no 60000 mile, five hundred dollar service.

    That's good to know. Thanks for the info.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    Not true - got our Aveo w/ automatic and a/c for $8500 - significantly less than the Reno and Elantr5a are available for.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Did the Aveo have power windows/locks/heated mirrors, 138 hp CVVT engine (like the Elantra), 15" wheels, 8-way adjustable drivers' seat, 4-wheel disc brakes, side air bags, 8-speaker stereo (like the Reno)? Did it have as long a warranty as the Elantra or Reno? Was it a 2005 model or a 2004 closeout? And can you get that price today on a 2005 Aveo with automatic and air? Cheapest I've seen in my area lately is $8500 for the base Aveo with no air or automatic.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here it is the Hatchback of your dreams the latest from Fiat. Soon to be in a showroom near you...happy car hunting.

    image
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    Pass...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Me, too. That should be easy because I don't think there will be a Fiat dealer in my area anytime soon.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    Didn't have most of that stuff, but I'm sure I could name a car just a few thousand dollars more with bigger wheels, bigger engine, better stereo, etc.It was a 2004, bought in November of 2004.

    Don't know if you could get the deal now or not - just bringing up the options.

    That Fiat is awesome.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I doubt you could get that kind of deal today on the Aveo, as you've confirmed you got a '04 during the year-end closeout sale, when huge rebates/discounts were in effect. For example, the Edmunds TMV for the lowest-priced '05 Aveo hatchback with auto and air is $11,459 (invoice $11,936). Move up to the Aveo LT to get the power package, which is standard on the Reno and Elantra, and the TMV is $12,860. Hyundai hasn't posted its new incentives yet, but if they still have the $1500 rebate as last month, the TMV for the GLS 5-door will be $12,674. So I stand by my statement.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    Which hatchback do you think I'll end up with? (Not which do you think I should get, but which do you think I'll end up with, based on my posts?)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you buy now... Reno.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    TMV is only a guide - I'm willing to bet the Aveo price is close to $10k. However, if you are right and the Elantra is $12674 and the Aveo is $11469 - he should go with the Elantra - definitely worth the step up.

    I vote for the Reno too. I'm going to go test drive one this weekend - just because of you!
  • npaladin2000npaladin2000 Member Posts: 593
    I think once you test-drive the Aveo you might go for that one; you haven't mentioned it yet.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    Maybe tomorrow I'll test drive one... along with the xBox Scion. But I may not post about them since I'm off on my vacation. I'll be gone about a week and a half; when I get back I'll be interested in seeing what car you think I'll buy. Will it influence me? Who knows?
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    We'll be waiting to hear the results! I never thought much about the Aveo - - but from reading the ownership experiences here in the Forums, it now tops my list of hatchbacks I recommend people research and test drive (if and when anyone asks of course...)
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    backy -
    There was a 2005 Hyundai Elantra GLS for $9995 in the sunday paper that I just noticed. Worth a test drive in my book - There's a new Accent GLS next to it for $6995. Those are some serious deals. And I'll be the first to admit, I don't see any Aveos in the paper.

    doohickie -
    Looking forward to your impressions - hopefully the Aveo hasn't gotten blown completely out of proportion. I'm moving my Reno test drive up until tomorrow, I can't wait any longer.

    Sylvia -
    I continue to be exceptionally pleased with our Aveo, and the deal we got. $0 down and $185 a month! (for 60 months - purchase)
  • madmadammadmadam Member Posts: 55
    Give the MAXX a test drive. It's a real dream to drive. Lots of great touches for the driver and the passengers. 6 cylinders and the long wheel base makes it very smooth (one reason why it looks so.....unusual). Good mileage also.
    You get a lot of car for the money. It's really a great choice for hatchback lovers.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    Sorry, I just can't. It is, in my opinion, the most singularly ugly car on the road today. Much worse than the xBox.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You forgot the Aztek, maybe the ugliest vehicle ever built. Then I consider most of the vehicles from Asia as not very attractive. The SUVs especially are just downright gaudy and go against all sense of aesthetic appeal. It goes back to beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like Monet & some Picasso.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    When you look at the Aveo, be sure to check the clock--make sure it doesn't lose time during your test drive. ;)
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    Re: Aztec
    You're right; I stand corrected.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    I drove the Aveo Thursday. It was... uninspiring. It was perfectly adequate, and nothing more. That said, it's on the list and I'll probably get a quote when buying. It has two advantages over most of the other cars: 1) Mileage with an automatic is 26/34; only the Scions get better AT mileage. 2) Cost. As long as the everyone pays employee price thing holds up, I don't think the price will be beat. It may have a similar drawback to the Scions, though: availability. Both Scions and Aveos are in pretty short supply and I expect I'll need to special order to get one with the options I want.

    Speaking of Scions, I went to the Toyota dealership to drive the xB.... but they didn't have any left on the lot. I redrove the xA. My impression the first time is that the transaxle shifted at funny spots, holding the gears longer than I would expect. This time around, I found the O/D switch on the shifter and made sure it was in the normal (O/D engaged) position, and the shifting felt okay. I think I may have had O/D turned off last time and didn't realize it, and the trans held onto the lower gears longer.

    My son (who may get this next purchase as his college car in 5-6 years) loves the xB, so I want to give it a look.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So the question is... do you really want to drive a car that is "uninspiring" and "adequate" for the next 5-6 years? Two things to consider: 1) the mpg advantage is quite small compared to some other, better cars on your list and won't amount to much savings; 2) these "employee pricing" deals really aren't any better than deals that could be had before by someone willing to negotiate.

    What did you think of the ride of the xA compared to others you've driven? I've heard it called "harsh" by others.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    backy - Assuming he could get an Aveo for around $10k, that's probably $4k less than the xA. Is the xA that much more inspiring? Not really, it is certainly trendier though. To be honest, if our Aveo had been $10k, instead of $8500, I would have gone for the $6995 Accent from the paper.

    doohickie - Admittedly, the most inspiring part of the Aveo is the price. But the transmission is very smooth, the gas mileage is good, and there isn't that much fancy stuff to break. Then again, I think the last inspiring car available in that price range was the '89-'94 Suzuki Swift GT.

    I will say this though, the Aveo is not the best car at any price (obviously). So you have to make sure you are getting enough of a discount of its competitors to make it worth your while.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The advertised "employee discount" price for a base Aveo hatchback w/o air or automatic in today's paper is $8,766. So unless a person can negotiate a deal far below the "employee discount" price on an Aveo, no way they can get one with auto and air for under $10k. If you could get an LS with auto and air for under $10k, that would be worth considering. If it were me I'd wait a couple of months to see what how the '06 Rio5 drives before going for an Aveo.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    All the other cars I'm looking at are "nicely equipped" (a/c, AT, pwr locks/wdws, keyless entry, cruise). While not a final show stopper, I was hoping to get all those goodies.

    backy- The xA is a bit harsh, and if I were going to buy one, it would be with 15 inch wheels. I test drove one with 17 inchers and the car was little harsher than I want. Will it be better with 15's? I don't know cuz the local dealer only has xAs with 17 inch wheels.

    I'm on vacation in Hilton Head, SC, right now, checking in from the Barnes & Noble on my son's computer. I'll be home late Sunday...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's strange, I thought the Aveo LT has power windows/locks+remote/mirrors standard. Are you saying Chevy isn't actually making any LT's?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't know cuz the local dealer only has xAs with 17 inch wheels.

    They are the rage for a couple reasons. They handle better and the look cool. The 15" wheels and tires should ride softer and not handle quite as well. I have the 17" wheels and tires on my Passat. If I buy another one it will have the stock 16" to give it a nicer ride.
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    I'm a little late to the game on this one but here is my 2 cents on Fiat. They have some really nice cars in Europe. The big problem is so many people here were burned by them. Myself included. In the 70's they used Russian steel that rusted in about 3 seconds flat. If they came back to this country (USA) they would have to honestly improve quality and go with the Korean style warranty. I do not see them doing that. Same for the French trio Renault/Peugoet/Citroen. Hyundai is proof it can happen.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Oh, I am with you on that one. I bought my son an old Fiat Spyder when he was in High School. That car cost me sooooo much money to keep on the road. Then I bought him a new 1994 Toyota PU that had a good reputation for being well built. It did not cost me a much as the Fiat, but real close. No wonder I like GM PU trucks they DO NOT cost as much to own.
  • madmadammadmadam Member Posts: 55
    With the Malibu MAXX you get a lot of car for the money. Great value and a wonderful hatchback. Give it a test drive and see.
  • aeriohawaii1aeriohawaii1 Member Posts: 39
    A Malibu Maxx cost at Least $24 with ABS and side airbags, an Aerio SX is Only about $14, that is an additional $10K. It is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. A BMW X3 would be only another $7K more than the Maxx. If we are going to being to make comparisons, but they are really not in the same price leagues.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A Malibu Maxx cost at Least $24 with ABS and side airbags

    In most of the country a loaded Maxx is about $24k MSRP. With the current promotion you can get ABS side airbags all power and a moonroof for $18k. the problem is doohickie does not like the looks of the Maxx. It could be $5k if you don't like the way it looks you ain't gonna buy.
  • aeriohawaii1aeriohawaii1 Member Posts: 39
    $18K is a good rpice for the Maxx. In Hawaii w/ the sunroof the MSRP at $25K
    and selling $21, that is more than a Honda Accord or a Camry.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Maxx is roomier than the CamCords.
    In Hawaii I would get a Golf TDI hatch and use B100 biodiesel. What island are you on?
  • aeriohawaii1aeriohawaii1 Member Posts: 39
    I live on the Island of Oahu. The Golf Diesel sells at Full sticker price $20K +. Also Diesel fuel is not easy to get here, there are no interstate-type of truck stops here. Diesel fuel is Over $3.00 a gal, am I not sure that it is worth the extra premium to pay for a diesel engine in Hawaii
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    backy- My mistake: The Aveo IS available with power windows on the LT model. (On other models, they are only available for fleet and government purchase.) From what I read, though, cruise control is NOT available on any Aveo. I suppose the dealer could slap one on, but they don't make 'em with cruise I think.

    I drove an Aveo hatch today. I liked it better than the sedan for some reason; not sure why. The one thing I didn't like, though, is that it really leans into turns (granted, you expect this from a vehicle with such a high profile on a narrow wheelbase). For such a small, "underpowered" car, it has pretty good pickup, better, I would say, than the Scion xA. The ride on the Aveo is much smoother than the xA.

    If I were going to seriously consider an Aveo, its most direct competition would likely be the Suzuki Aerio, Scion xA, Hyundai Accent and the Kia Rio. But the Hyundai and Kia I've been looking at are the Elantra & Spectra5. I guess I need to decide whether I am more worried about passenger room or mileage. The Aerio might be the best of all worlds: big inside, small outside, and very utilitarian. And the 2.3L engine can actually make the car move, with reasonable gas mileage.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I totally agree with your review - better pickup than the competition, smooth ride, too much body roll. Even money still buys the xA, but the Aveo is a great alternative for less money.

    Couldn't imagine buying a Kia Rio, just not competitive.

    Aerio is the best overall of what you've named.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    If you buy now... Reno.

    I think you have me pegged, backy. I'm definitely leaning toward the Reno. I was moaning about its gas mileage and my wife said, "if you like the car, BUY it." She has a point. Now, if she would only pull in a paycheck or two (she starts teaching this fall), I could follow her advice.
    :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Go for it, unless you can wait a few weeks, then the new Rio5 is worth a look-see first (so you don't say "I should have looked at the Rio5..." later). A new Yaris is supposed to replace the ECHO this fall too, but I don't know when the Yaris is due out. But the Yaris and Rio5 won't have the upscale interior of the Reno.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    I have probably two months to wait, actually, and I notice Kia's put some 06 Rio material up on their website. I'll consider myself happy if I get my new wheels by my birthday in early October. I will probably take several more test drives before I buy. I need to sell my Aspire (I already have a prospective buyer lined up), and my wife has to pull in a paycheck or two. I also have to make sure my son has everything he needs at college (he'll be a freshman 800 miles from home).

    The ride is the selling point, though. The Elantra was okay, Spectra was good. Aveo, though a very a smll car, was better than I expected. I started out with Scion xA as my favorite, but after driving it, it seems harsher than I like. I couldn't get a test on an xA with the stock 15s, only 17s, so I will probably try one more time. But my wife's car is in the shop for some body work, and she has a Neon rental car... and riding to the store with her tonight made me realize I'm not going to settle for a rough ride. And I was more impressed with the ride quality of the Reno than any other car I've driven- luxury car feel for an econbox price. I must be getting old, but I realized "sport-tuned suspensions" aren't my thing.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    Update: I stopped by the Toyota dealer this afternoon and guess what? They had another Scion xA there- one without the dropped springs and 17 inch wheels- a totally stock unit. I stopped in and my salesman was there and we took her out. It was a helluva smoother ride than the other one with the tricked out stuff. Still not as smooth as the Reno I'm pretty sure, but not near as objectionable as the other xA was.

    This one has the AT, six-disc changer and armrest (yes, it's an option and not standard on an xA), but does not have the keyless entry or cruise control. The salesman said they could add cruise and I assume they could add the keyless/alarm option as well if I wanted it. Logically, this is the car for me. Now I need to decide if I can live with the teeny car ride and whether the ride quality is acceptable, or if I want a cushier ride with more room in the Reno. The dealer also said they had a no payments for 45 days option which would bring me a lot closer in terms of timespan.

    So if our illustrious state legislature can pass a bill to finance the public school system, thus ensuring my wife's income, I might be able to move more quickly than I thought I would.

    My short list is:

    1. Suzuki Reno: Most impressed with this car's ride but not sure if it's the best value.
    1. Scion xA: The early favorite pulled back even with today's test drive. I know this is the car I *should* buy logically, but emotionally I think I'm more attached to the Reno.
    3. Suzuki Aerio: Represents a compromise between the Reno and the xA: Better mileage than the Reno but not as cramped as the xA.
    4. Hyundai Elantra: Hanging around, it is the lowest-cost up front and is a good size. It is different than the Aerio but represents a similar compromise.
  • cosanostracosanostra Member Posts: 97
    1. Scion xA: The early favorite pulled back even with today's test drive. I know this is the car I *should* buy logically, but emotionally I think I'm more attached to the Reno.

    I've been lurking in this forum for a bit as I'm considering a hatchback/sportback/sportwagon as my/our next car. After reading your post doohickie I thought I'd comment on your emotional & logical conundrum.

    My current was the the logical car to buy. At the time we needed something reliable, decent gas mileage, roomy enough for two on long trips, and affordable. We ended up with our 98 Camry. Logically, an excellent for our situation at the time. Emotionally, I couldn't be more unattached to this car. Don't get me wrong, its by no means a bad car. But do I wake up every morning and think "I can't wait to drive my Camry?" No. It is what it is - my means of getting from point A to point B. On the other hand, I love driving my wife's Mini Cooper. :D That is fun and I'll admit I am emotionally attach to that one.

    So just a note - yes something looks good logically, just be prepared to have your logical choice while your heart pines for something else. :sick:
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    After having slept on it, I am leaning back toward Reno... for precisely the reason you state. I ran the numbers, and the cheapest car in terms of fuel cost per month is the xA (no surprise). The Elantra and Aerio are both $20/month more than the Scion, and the Reno is $28/month more. Okay, so I know that up front. Just like I say I'm willing to pay about $10-15/month for leather seats. I can just accept it and move on.

    What I need to do is when I'm really ready to buy, drive each car (yes, even the Elantra) one more time, and adjust my perceptions. I've driven all these cars over the course of several weeks, and my attitudes change from day to day. I think I liked the Reno so much precisely because the previous car I had driven was the Spectra5 and was underwhelmed by it after several people enthusiastically endorsed it. I expected the same performance out of the Reno. Maybe the Reno isn't all that good really, but it greatly exceeded what I was expecting that day. I can drive all four cars in one day, and then I will have a true apples-to-apples comparison.

    That said, I've read several consumer reviews of the cars, and I think my perceptions are pretty well in line with popular perception. The Reno is a nicer ride than the xA.
  • doohickiedoohickie Member Posts: 949
    The local dealers are giving away a Sonata, but you have to stop by the dealer. I didn't win, but while I was there I went ahead and drove the Elantra again, this time a GT. It drove much better than I remembered, and the stereo was better than I remembered as well (is there a difference between GLS & GT?) Anyway, the Elantra is in the thick of things now. When I am ready, it will probably come down to who can give me the best price on a car with the options I want.
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