Which Hatchback?

nippononly

yeah, well everyone knows Toyotas and Hondas are overpriced by a bit, so in order to get the "best value" prize, they have to NOT have the issues they have had the last few years, like rattling interiors.

otherwise, "you get what you pay for" turns in to "you DON'T get what you paid EXTRA for"...

backy

The NHTSA crash test results for the Spectra are surprising given all of its airbags and it is a new design. They aren't even as good as its older cousin, the Elantra. The 3-star result on the rear is particularly puzzling, since the Spectra has side curtains and the Elantra got 4 stars without them.

billmchale

Well I hadn't realized about the Kia's disappointing crash test results; on the flip side the Aerio also had at least one result of only 3 stars. I really don't think 3 star results are all that acceptable in an age when you can essentially wrap a passanger in air bags. I will have to wait and see what the Elantra's new offset crash score is.
 
As a thought, as a single person with no kids, I find the Aerio's three star more disturbing than the Spectra's. The Spectra's is for the rear seat, but I am far more likely to have someone sitting in the front passanger seat. (Does anyone know if there are safety upgrades to the Aerio for the 2005 model year?).

smith20

"the fact that Hyundai is trying to move upmarket means that the Elantra hatches are doomed. They have only just introduced a GLS hatch for '05. Hatches are not generally viewed in America as "upscale"."

I hope not! I think when Hyundai makes a move to go real upscale it will result in a new premium brand. Besides, I think there is somewhat of a resurgence for this body-type . . . seems like there are a couple new hatchback competitors each successive MY for the past couple of years . . .

Anyway, I hope you're wrong. I'd definitely like to check out the Elantra hatchback again in 2008 or so.

rctennis3811

The Aerio receives an "advanced" front- passenger airbag system which deactivated the airbag if the passenger is under 65lbs. It also received side airbags for MY05...the head/thorax type.

nippononly

Hey I was only wondering! I love hatches - my favorite body style - and I do not look forward to the day they begin to go away again (if the car biz is cyclical like everything else).

billmchale

I am not sure that the move by Hyundai upscale is goin to doom its hatch back efforts. Each year there seems to be more and more hatchbacks offered, and they seem to be gradually stepping up in price power and prestige; you can even get a Mercedes Hatch now (though not a 4 door hatchback). There are even rumors that VW may be thinking of bringing over a 4 door variant of the GTi to America (Though not in the first model year of the next generation).

Ultimately hatchbacks have a lot going for them. They offer alot of the utility of a wagon or an SUV but have a younger hipper image. In other words they may well be to this decade what SUVs were to the 1990s (well a guy can dream can't he ).

smith20

I know, my response was meant to be pretty light-hearted.

I think there is another factor that might solidify the place of hatchbacks and that would be the world oil supply/demand situation. If oil consumption keeps exploding in the USA, India, and China as it has the past couple years, then we're going see current or even higher oil prices for a long time. That will definitely boost hatchback demand while denting SUV demand.

muffin_man

I don't think it's that surprising, I don't think Kia is to the point yet where they are desigining class leading cars. Their cars still do not stand out in any positive way - aside from that they are better than they were.

gagrice

"In other words they may well be to this decade what SUVs were to the 1990s (well a guy can dream can't he )"

I think the SUV & light truck run is only getting more momentum. I liked a couple different hatchbacks over the years. I think they are niche market cars. Not as practical as a wagon or MV with marginally better mileage. I see the wagons making a big comeback. DCC, VW, Ford & BMW have some great wagons. Toyota & Honda seem to be missing from that segment.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/sales2e_20041002.htm

nippononly

heard the ad on the radio, or maybe it is only local radio, where the guy is supposed to be a car doctor talking to an SUV engine (it is an oil change commercial) and he says that if it doesn't get proper care pretty soon it is going to be performing like "a weak little old hatchback engine"? Total hatch putdown! Not to mention perhaps indicative of the way hatches are still viewed in the U.S.

billmchale

I am not sure that SUV's have the momentum they once did. The Car Connection reported today that last month, while SUV sales remained strong, they did so with an awful lot of incentives being added to them; not a sign of increasing momentum. A friend has a Ford Expidition and pays about $400 a month for gas, we figured if he got a Honda Civic HX his reduced gas bill would cover the cost of the car payment. If Gas prices drop that will no longer be true, but who knows when or if that will happen.

I agree that wagons offer more utility than a hatchback, but that is true about wagons over sedans, yet it never stopped sedans outselling wagons. Lets face it, people buy cars for fashion as much as utility and in the current culture hatchbacks are seen as a little hipper than regular wagons.

smith20

Haven't heard it and I hope I never do. I'm not getting my oil changed there!

smith20

I agree that current hatchbacks are seen as a little hipper than wagons. I personally think they blend nicely as a compromise between sedans and wagons. The advantages of that compromise are certainly why we purchased an Elantra hatchback.

gagrice

But Americans have not embraced station wagons or hatchbacks in the numbers that Europeans have, and Bellopatrick says that is why Chevrolet tried to disguise that the Malibu Maxx is a hatchback, giving it an abbreviated “rear deck” like a trunk.

“Those two just don't resonate with people in the U.S. You tell them it's a hatchback or station wagon, and they run away from you,” he said.

http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=452ECE69-F490-4FFA-- 90B6-186528559ED9

backy

It's certainly true that hatchbacks are more popular in Europe than in the U.S., but the popularity of hatchbacks (or "5-doors" as they are more often called by automakers) in the U.S. is on the upswing--coincidentally with the upswing in gas prices. Note all the automakers that have added 5-door models added in the past few years: Ford, Chevrolet, Saturn, Pontiac, Toyota, Mazda, Suzuki, Hyundai, and Kia have all added 5-door models, some more than one. They wouldn't be doing that if there were no market. I see lots of Malibu Maxxes around, and lots of Focus ZX5s, Aveos, Matrix/Vibes, Priuses, and Elantra 5-doors. Little wagons are making a comeback too, with several new models in the past year or two. Maybe people are finally realizing you can get about the same cargo versatility with a hatchback or small wagon as with a small-to-midsized SUV, but with a lower price and higher fuel economy.

bikerpa

In addition, look at Scion. Toyota's "youth division" (or at least that's how they're marketing it - I see gobs of 40-somethings driving these) is comprised entirely of hatchbacks. Sure, the xB looks like a shrunk '94 Chevy Astro, and the tC is a slick peppy sports car, but they've all done away with the separate trunk design. I can dig it, that's for sure (well, if the xA and xB didn't have those teeny 105hp Echo engines, anyway).

gagrice

the xB looks like a shrunk '94 Chevy Astro,

I was at the plumbing supply the other day and the owner was test driving one of those box looking Scion's, to buy for their delivery service. They look distinctive and have a good amount of room, with room on the side for advertising.

backy

I was lumping Scion in with Toyota, but it is significant that all of Scion's models are hatchbacks. They used to be very popular with young people in the 70s and 80s, and looks like Toyota is betting they will be popular now. Even Honda edged back into the U.S. hatchback market with the Civic Si and will re-enter the 5-door market with the Jazz/Fit next year.

blueiedgod

well, if the xA and xB didn't have those teeny 105hp Echo engines, anyway

They are Echoes in disguize. Toyota never made a secret that Vitz and bB were variant of Echo/Yaris.

Even Honda edged back into the U.S. hatchback market with the Civic Si and will re-enter the 5-door market with the Jazz/Fit next year.
I think you are referring to US version of Stream. Jazz/Fit may be too small for US market. It sure is fun to drive a turbo 3 cylinder that weighs a little more than a full suitcase.

I have to attest to the versatility of the Civic Si hatchback. I was able to fit, at different times:
1) 15,000 BTU air conditioner and 3 people
2) 27 inch TV in a box and a passneger
3) 27 inch TV without a box and a microwave oven
4) Disassmebled armoir, a file cabinet, and a whole bunch of my sister's stuff when she was moving back to my parents'
5) 1 full size tower, 3 mid zise towers, 15 inch, 2 17 inch and 21 inch monitors, with all the periferals in a box.
6) This weekend I picked up a Maytag stainless steel dishwasher at Home depot for a steal and it fit in the Si, a passenger, and associated hardware needed for the installation (reel of 12 gauge wire, 2 flex hoses, miscellanious).

It doesn't have as much room as CR-V, but for the small size it sure fits alot of stuff, and it is fun to drive.

backy

Honda has confirmed the Jazz/Fit (whatever they decide to call it) is coming to the U.S., probably the next-gen model which will be a little bigger than the current car, and probably with a 1.5L VTEC engine--plenty big enough for such a small car.

explorerx4

the old guy perspective...
in an explorer, 32 inch tv plus the whole family who went to the store to pick it out

rfruth

Several of the stores near me have free delivery of any item thats over $ 499, my '00 Civic hatch would probably haul 4 people & a 32" TV if the TV was not in the cardboard box or TV in its box with two people.

backy

Same for my Elantra 5-door. BTW, how often does an entire family go to the store to buy a 32" TV, anyway? Once every 5-7 years, maybe? More than enough to justify buying an Explorer over a hatchback I guess. ;-)

bikerpa

now now, backy, we're all hatchback people, even the Explorer, technically. Let's not squabble.

backy

No, not squabbling. I guess every SUV and minivan is a hatchback too, then. Boy, aren't those hatchbacks popular!

On the TV... I had this revelation when it came time to replace my '99 Grand Caravan hatchback when it came off lease last spring. The revelation was that I really did need the people-hauling capacity and cargo capacity of my big hatchback-with-sliding-doors... about 2-3 times a year. Other times, I could make do very well with a 5-passenger compact hatchback that would be about 2/3 the cost of a minivan/hatchback and drink a lot less gas (and be easier to park, and more manuverable, and more fun to drive, etc.). So I got the hatchback. In nearly eight months, I did wish I had the minivan once, when I needed to haul six people across town. We took two (small) cars instead. I'll probably want a minivan next summer when we trek down to Texas to see the in-laws. I'll rent one. It will cost less to rent than the depreciation of 2500 miles on my own car.

If I had to frequently tow a trailer or big boat, or had more than five people in my family, I'd buy a minivan or 7-passenger SUV in a heartbeat. But I don't.

blueiedgod

the old guy perspective...
in an explorer, 32 inch tv plus the whole family who went to the store to pick it out

How much gas did you have to buy to haul 5 people and 32 inch TV? Should have bought Plasma, it uses less electricity and you can fit a 52 inch TV in a car :-)

Civic Si is not for a family person. I am a single guy who may or may not have a girlfriend for a passenger.

When friends and I decided to have a "guy weekend" in Montreal, we rented a minivan. It cost us about $30/person for a 4 day rental (5 people). It was still cheaper than one of us owning a minivan to use once a year.

muffin_man

Bought a new Aveo for $8500 (w/ air and ac) last sunday. It's the 5-door wagon/hatchback, and on day 4, I highly recommend it.

explorerx4

on my tv trip, say i had 4 people and got 15 mpg. that's 60 passenger miles per gallon, not too bad i think.
my tv uses 195 watts max. looks like a 50 inch plasma type uses about 450.
btw, i also drive a pzev 5 speed focus. each has their strengths and weaknesses.
back 'in the day', i went on few of those mv trips too.

blueiedgod

my tv uses 195 watts max. looks like a 50 inch plasma type uses about 450.
btw, i also drive a pzev 5 speed focus. each has their strengths and weaknesses.
back 'in the day', i went on few of those mv trips too.

I have yet to see a Plasma/LCD TV/monitor that uses that much power. 450 watts is pretty archaic for any electronic device. The most a 52 inch plasma would use is 100 watt, which is pretty inefficient for plasma/LCD.

explorerx4

...wattage. got the 450 number from the user manual(pdf) on the sony site. maybe it has something to do with the built in audio system. tried panasonic too, but they didn't have that info.
focus is sitting out there covered in snow this morning. time to search for a snow shovel and dig out the snowblower.

blueiedgod

Speaking of snowblowers, I bought one on ebay, and going to pick it up today in my Civic hatch. Hopefully it fits.

nippononly

'04 Aveo? Didn't you have an SI? What happened to it, or am I mistaken?

blueiedgod

well, snowthrower fit after we took the handles off it. And it is not a snow broom, a full sized Craftsman 2 stage, self propelled, 4 speed snow blower. I am impressed with Si's cargo capabilities.

muffin_man

I still have the 02 Si, the Aveo is for the gf. But until she gets her insurance straightened out, I'm breaking it in. I've really wanted a Metro or Swift for a while, but I didn't want to give up the EP for it, so the gf gets the Aveo. If you squint, it almost makes sense.

Si is doing fine, and is still the best hatchback on the market, IMO. (factoring in price and reliability)

Kirstie_H

A newspaper reporter is looking for vehicle shoppers and recent buyers age 20-29 who live in either the Atlanta or Raleigh-Durham area. If you're willing to talk about your vehicle preferences and shopping experience, please send an e-mail to jfallon@edmunds.com with your age, location, and contact info by December 13, 2004. Thanks!

explorerx4

next storm, are you going to load it up and go to your parents to clean their driveway?

blueiedgod

next storm, are you going to load it up and go to your parents to clean their driveway?

I live 400 miles away from my parents. They live in NYC, in an appartment and don't need to remove snow. That is what super does.
But, I will be going to see them Thanksgiving, and it will only cost me $15 in gas driving my Civic 400 miles at 75 mph. :-)

explorerx4

actually, i don't do that either. i just threw it out there. hope you are ok with that.
i'll be driving 4 people about the same distance to the dc area. it will cost about $40 one way.
taking the train would cost us about $300 one way.
at 2 bucks a gallon $15 for 400 miles is over 50 mpg. wanna check the math?

blueiedgod

my bad, it's $25

adp3

I'd like the benefit of allthe thinking you guys have been doing. My old wagon just died and I'd like to replace it with a small/mid-size wagon or a hatchback. I am 6 feet 2 inches tall, 65 years old and not as "limber" as I used to be. I also weigh around 225, so seat comfort is a significant issue for me. I live in the Boston area, so AWD is a potential consideration, especially since we need to drive, at night, after performing. (though this is not a deal breaker for us) I need to carry a stand-up bass and amp, as well as a small amount of luggage (garment bag and medium suitcase) Because of the bass, a flat loading surface is a must. I also need to drive from Boston to Carolina in a few months, so I am concerned about how comfortable a small car will be on such a drive.

I almost never use the backseat, so it's not necessary that it be a comfortable backseat.

I really didn't like the Ford Focus or the Honda Element. Thought the Element's quirky styling appealed to my wife, the driving experience was not as good as we hoped. We also did not like the Ford Escape. The drive was just too trucky to us, and that is not something we are used to. The Dodge Magnum wagon is bigger than I want, I think, just to give you an idea of size. I liked the Pontiac Vibe, believe it or not, but it probably is too small.

My brother is telling me "just buy the Subaru Legacy or Forester."

99% of our driving is around the Boston suburbs and into Boston, with the occasional long drive. We aren't mountain goers. I am not a driving aficianado, so won't really appreciate any of the real driver's hatchbacks/wagons. I just want some good basic reliable comfortable transportation.

I would really like high MPG, but my brother is trying to convince me that since I really only drive 12,000 miles/year, there isn't a great cost to me of getting 25 mpg verus 35 mpg, and those 35 mpg cars might feel too uncomfortable for us in the long run (and on those long drives).

Thanks for any advice you folks provide, and best wishes.

csandste

Not as sporty as a Subie or a Mazda 6, but it gets better mpg's, has a ton of equipment like a trip computer, adjustable pedals, semi-power seats. Great rear seating that is extremely flexible-- back seat moves back and forth and reclines and can be purchased for $16,000 out the door. It's lots quieter than the Vibe which I also looked at and has higher equipment levels on the base car.

I've had mine for almost 3000 miles and it grows on me daily. I came over from a Hyundai Elantra which I also liked. If you don't need as much space the Elantra hatch is also quite a buy and I like it better than the Vibe.

The Forester was also on my short list, but the Maxx gave me a V-6 for a lot less money.

I'm 60 years old, 6'4 and weigh 230 and I can't reach the pedals with the seat all the way back. I also have a lot of back seat room even with the seat fairly far back.

The 05 Maxx has improved considerably over the first year of the model run. Some reviews complain about the electric steering. Other than being a bit sensitive to road pitch (i.e. left or right lane), I don't have any problems-- especially on relatively smooth roads. Interior design may not be up to the highest Japanese standards but is infinitely better than any GM product of even a few years ago. The car is head and shoulders above an Impala for comfort and ride quality.

The Saab 9-3 platform that it's based on is pretty good, and the car reminds me a lot of the last gen. large Saab hatchbacks of the early 90's, but with off the rack GM internals that can be fixed at any Chevy dealer.

Other cars considered: Suburu Forester, Suzuki Aerio, Scion xB, Saab 9-2, Suburu Impreza wagon, Suzuki Impreza wagon, Hyundai Tucson, FoMercuryMazda suvs, Kia Sportage (not out when I bought), KiaSpectra5.

My existing Hyundai dealer was weaker than any of the local Chevy dealers. Liked my Elantra, not too crazy about the service or the deteriorating shoddy sales techniques. Chevy dealers also much better than local Toyota/Scion dealers.

Scion xB has a ton of space and is very comfortable, but cranks at 3500 rpm @ 70 mpg. Not suitable for any kind of distance travel IMHO-- my ears hurt.

adp3

excellent input, C Sand. I was wondering about the Malibu, and am glad to hear a good report about it.

backy

With your requirements, I recommend you look at a small SUV, which would provide a higher seating position (easier to get into/out of) than a small hatchback or wagon plus would provide the AWD option, reasonable seat comfort and ride.

Some possibilities are the Kia Sportage (avail. with stick and 4-cylinder if price and fuel economy are more important than quickness), Hyundai Tucson (similar to Sportage but squishier suspension), the Forester, CR-V, RAV4, and Equinox. I think any of these might fit your needs, it's just a matter of which one is most comfortable to you. You might be able to squeeze 30 mpg out of the 4-cylinder models on the highway, if you keep your speed reasonable.

adp3

Backy: I've not driven any of the vehicles you suggest, so I don't know if they drive "trucky." But I know my bro didn't like the Escape. They DID like the Tribute, however. :confuse: The Rav4 is out because the rear cargo area is two tiers. (?)

backy

I haven't driven all of them either because small SUVs aren't the kind of vehicle that meets my needs. But I have driven the Sportage and can tell you it is very car-like. The Tucson is similar (same platform) but tuned for an even softer ride, so there is more body lean.

Personally I prefer 5-door hatchbacks or wagons. I own an Elantra GT 5-door and like it a lot. I consider the Elantra GLS 5-door to be the value champ of all the 5-door hatchbacks. The reason I didn't mention any hatchbacks is because I thought the higher-up SUVs would be easier to get into/out of, and that seemed important. I have seen some really good deals on 2004 Mazda6 5-doors in my town, like under $17k. I think those are great cars, and the 4-cylinder stick would give pretty good fuel economy. But no AWD on those. The Aerio SX AWD might be worth checking out, but its cargo area is not that big and fuel economy is not good for a small car. I've read a lot of good things about the Forester.

adp3

Backy: no stick no stick no stick - my bro and his wife, though they CAN drive a stick, really don't want one. Hell, they wouldn't even test drive the Forester or the Mazda because the gear shifter looked funny (is it a "maze?")

as you can see, my brother is NOT a "car guy"

they felt that the Vibe/Matrix was a bit tinny, but they DID like it. Can't recall if they liked the Scion. They liked whichever one starts out as a Corolla.

He probably has not looked at the Elantra. I wonder how the Mazda is in an automatic. He didn't like the looks of the Mazda because of the zig-zaggy (maze?) shifter. I'll tell him to put the Elantra GLS 5-door on his list and try to get him to drive the Mazda6 5-door.

AWD is not mandatory - they've gotten by without it thus far (but it would be nice, and I do like the Subies, though I don't own one)

backy

I find the traction control with FWD good enough in the Twin Cities. If I drove in rural winter conditions I'd probably go for AWD though.

The Elantra is a pretty low car. I encourage your bro to take a look at the Tucson if he goes to a Hyundai dealer, also go drive the Kia Sportage. I like the way the Sportage looks and drives better than I do the Tucson. It's a little less expensive than the Tucson also--nicely equipped V6 AWD for $20k, 4-banger for less.

adp3

OK, will do - if it's a carlike ride, they may go for it

adp3

they've decided on the Tucson (bcz they liked it and bcz of the warranty, I think)