because of all of those niggling (and serious)problems, and because Elantra owners on Edmunds seemed much happier with their cars. After 20,000 trouble free miles, I'm glad I did.
The GT had the best handling, power, and overall great package for me! Who ever compared the GT to a Buick should lay off the pills! The Pro5 was close, but with a slower trans (auto) and less powerful engine (not to mention to much of a wagon). The Matrix/Vibe is just plan ugly, and the ford...well it's a ford! I've been there with fords.... they don't hold up! (I did enjoy the power of my 5.0, though!) I like the look of the PT, and now they have a turbo. The price and warranty made a difference also (loaded for $15k and 5-10 years no worry on my GT!) It's great to see America getting back into the 5 doors! I just got back from Germany, and they have so many great 5 doors to choose from!!
[Sorry, Edmunds.com cuts off long posts with no warning, so I'm splitting this into three pieces]
I just bought a Protege5 after a long look at a wide range of cars, test-driving everything from the Prius to the BMW 325xi.
I didn't test-drive the Elantra at the time, but have since tried it out. I have no idea how you could conceivably think it was even in the same league as the Protege5 handling-wise. It reminds me very much of the Matrix: as if the steering wheel was connected to the wheels via a giagantic rubber band. It is like a Protege5 only in Bizarro World. Anyway, this plus Hyundai's problematic reliability history, at least according to Consumer Reports, concerns me about the car.
I also didn't test-drive the Focus: I skipped it as I was concerned about reliability issues and the fact that it was, well, a Ford. Though Consumer Reports liked the Focus a lot...until the recalls.
Last, I didn't test-drive the PT Cruiser, though it certainly looks and feels like a fun car. I just couldn't get over the body design. I know that's an irrational decision-making factor, though.
So anyway, on to the sport wagons I did test-drive:
VOLKSWAGON JETTA WAGON
The Prius was the last sedan I test-drove, after a big long list of 'em, ranging from $15K to $35K.
After driving the Prius, it occurred to me that really, I wanted a nicely equipped small, $20K-or-so car. But I also wanted one with good handling. Something fun to drive! Which the Prius is not. And not as small as the Prius, which set my bottom line size-wise. And a new thing came in: after driving many of the more expensive cars, I came to really really want fold-down seats. At some point it occurred to me: why am I looking at small sedans, when small wagons were available at exactly the same size? Just what I was looking for.
DEALERSHIP. Fairfax VW/Volvo, Virginia. I made a beeline for the same dealer that had previously shown me a Passat on an earlier trip. I knew him now, and knew how to get him to show me a car without much grandstanding. Which he did. We test-drove a Jetta wagon, after I had decided that I really wanted a five-door wagon, and the Golf GTI wagon and Beetle were sub-Prius sized.
THE CAR. The wagon was larger than others I was aware of (and subsequently tried). It had the same flat, boxy interior as a Passat and the same uncomfortable seats. The engine wasn't nearly as impressive as the Passat's, and it was louder. The test drive showed the wagon to drive reasonably nimbly but not as much as I would have liked. It was very smooth though.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. The wagon was longer than I'd have liked. I was wary of the repair record of the cars, and Consumer Reports was on-again, off-again about the Jetta, worried about its reliability. And the seats were very uncomfortable. That's an amazingly important thing! It cost more than later models which I liked better.
SUBARU IMPREZA TS WAGON
DEALERSHIP. Farrish Subaru, Fairfax Virginia. My first time to Farrish, I test-drove an Outback, and the salesman had 0% sleaze factor. Just a first-rate guy. The second time to Farrish wasn't nearly as impressive as the first time. The salesman I got wasn't all that interested in me really, and had more sleaze factor than the excellent previous Farrish salesman. I got locked into the same stupid test drive circuit as the first time. He also refused to let me or anyone else test-drive the Subaru Impreza WRX, a much faster, gussied-up version of the TS. Astounding! But I had decided against the WRX anyway, not needing its sports car design. I'm not really a Car and Driver reader. I don't use terms like "willing" to describe an engine, nor words like "aftermarket", "powerplant", or "twisties". Gimme a break.
THE CAR. The TS drove wonderfully. An all-wheel-drive microwagon: it makes for a great sense of control of the road. The car is somewhat ugly, and from the back it strongly recalls the AMC Gremlin. No, honestly. The interior was a little cramped. The engine was fast and powerful and fun. The size of the car was just right, length-wise. Overall, I felt like I was getting warm.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. The car's all wheel drive and large engine, and who knows what else, results in a dismal 20 or so miles per gallon. The treehugger in me refused to let me get a little car with a BMW-level gas mileage. The interior was inferior to later cars I tried. I had no reason for all wheel drive really. And it didn't impress Consumer Reports.
DEALERSHIP. Oursman Fairfax Toyota, Virginia. My Prius salesman was not at the dealership when I came back to try the Matrix. I had heard all sorts of odd things about this car, and just had to try it out. After the Prius Debacle (the car died on the freeway), I'm not sure if he was hiding from me or what. :-) I worked with another salesman with a significantly higher, but not HBL-level, sleaze factor.
THE CAR. The Matrix is a frustrating car. Not a single feature of the car is average in quality: every design decision is either due to raw unadulterated genius or profound stupidity. I was in awe both of the ingenuity of the car and of the mediocrity of it. The Matrix's dash is four circular dials in their own shiny enclosures. It's meant to look cool, but the net result is that, even with the steering wheel at its maximum height, the wheel blocks the dials for me. And you can see the dials in the windshield -- and that is very annoying. The Matrix has an electrical plug (a built-in inverter) so you can plug in your computer, but not your hair dryer or toaster I imagine. :-) A great feature! It saves me from having to buy a $60 inverter myself. The back seats fold totally down, brilliantly automatically moving the seat bottoms forward and down into the wells. The result is a back area that is completely flat. The back area is also filled to the brim with little pockets and places to stick stuff. This is a feature really missing in the Protege5 and Impreza, which have almost no pockets at all in the back. The center of the back are two guide rails making it easy to slide large, heavy objects in and out. Sheer genius. Unfortunately, it's marred by the decision to cover the back area with a slippery plastic. Things slid back and forth. Very bad design decision there.
The Matrix also has an aggressively styled, weird window design that is very tiny in the back. Toyota must have thought this looked cool (most people I know think it looks dreadful) but the net result is that it blocks a large area that I'd rather be able to see out of. The Matrix gets great gas mileage for a crossover vehicle (29mpg vs the Protege5's 25mpg), at least the version with the smaller, Protege5-sized 130HP engine; but it also has significantly worse acceleration. And the Matrix suffers from Prius-Echo-itis: it steers like a giant boat. Worse, because the Matrix is bigger than the Prius or Echo, you have to steer and steer and steer and steer until finally the car makes the turn you wan. You have to rotate the wheel a lot to get a 180 turn too. The seats, like the Prius, are short and strange and uncomfortable. And you had to buy a ton of stuff in weird packages to add anything to the car.
I've since spied a lot of Matrices on the street, and two things come to mind immediately. First, they really are very *very* ugly cars. Second, they are *big*looking* cars. They look like small SUVs. It's not a good look.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. The Matrix drove me bonkers. It could have been such a great car. But so many stupid design decisions marred the brilliant ones that I kept shaking my head. Aimed squarely at the teenager market, yet with awful handling and drive feel. It's not fun to drive in the least. The back is sheer genius, except that you'd have to recarpet it to keep anything from sliding around noisily. The car's seats uncomfortable, and its dash design is ill-conceived. But the plug is a great idea. Man! What a wonderful car this could have been if the designers had worked on it longer.
DEALERSHIP. Rosenthal Honda. Medium sleaze factor. I was "given" a rookie salesman who didn't know much about how to deal with customers. It was frustrating, and made more frustrating by the fact that they didn't have the car I really wanted to try: the Honda Civic Hybrid. No matter: the Hybrid was only available in a very limited set of trims and colors, and of course, no wagon.
THE CAR. The Civic SI, the only "wagon" in the Civic line, is a pocket rocket. It is a Golf GTI-like hatchback with a high-tech engine and it accelerates astoundingly. Handling is not as good as the Impreza or Protege5, but still quite good. The SI was only available in manual, and I had at that point been sold on steptronic automatic. It also had very few options, dorky seats, and was, well, small. Like other Civics, it has a pristine crash test record, a great reliability record, and great gas mileage. But it was just too small.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. Size, manual only, size, limited options, and size.
MAZDA PROTEGE 5
DEALERSHIP. Brown's Mazda Fairfax, Virginia. The sleaze factor at this dealership was relatively low, though not of the tremendous low level of my first visit to Farrish Subaru. I was pointed to a salesman and was able to test drive a Protege5 fairly quickly thereafter.
THE CAR. The Protege5 is somewhat similar to the Impreza, albeit much nicer looking and with a weaker engine (130 horsepower vs 161 or 225 horsepower), though it is a lighter car which compensates to some degree. While the Protege5 was not as good accelerating as the Impreza, it beat the snot out of it when it came to steering. Its steering is very reminiscent of the BMW 325i I test-drove. The interior wasn't as high-tech as other sport wagons I tried, but the design was nicely done. The suspension and handling were stiff and sports-car like, which was fun. The Protege5 also had (unlike the Impreza) a steptronic automatic. At that point I felt I should go for a steptronic automatic as I didn't really want another manual, and an ordinary automatic was, well, boring. The car is also available in leather. The outside is clearly styled for teenagers, with a very, erm, aftermarket feel. Consumer Reports likes the Protege line, though they like the Ford Focus and Civic better. As I mentioned, I didn't even consider the Focus, both because I wasn't willing to buy a Ford, but also because it had recently had a large blob of very serious recalls. And the Civic wasn't available in a wagon (except for the Civic SI, kind of -- see below). Edmunds.com rates the Protege5 as their top-choice in small wagons. And much to my ANNOYANCE, Car and Driver also rated the Protege5 as their top choice in a shoot-out including the Matrix and PT cruiser among others: this meant that all the teenagers would suddenly have an irrational desire for it.
Put simply, the Protege5 was really very fun to drive, and well liked by the authorities. It looked nice. It turned on a dime, and handled exceptionally well. Its crash ratings were okay, but not at the level of the Civic. It got 25mpg, which was within my morality tolerances. Its front bucket seats were exceptionally comfortable. It came with a lot of things standard. Decked out as I wanted it, I figured it would come in in the mid-$19K range. Despite my reservations about the car not being for my target demographic, I really liked this car.
I BOUGHT THIS CAR. But here were the downsides, such as they were. First, it had the smallest engine among its competitors (Impreza, Matrix/Vibe, PT Cruiser, Jetta). Second, it didn't have the gas mileage of the Civic nor even of the Matrix version that had the same-size engine (29MPG). Third, it had a reputation for having a noisy engine. Which didn't bother me at all actually. In truth, I didn't notice it that much. Fourth, it had the least cargo room of its competitors, and the seats, once folded down, didn't have the astonishing seamless fold-flat notion of the Matrix. All that being said, it was still a better car.
Thanks for sharing your test drive experiences... and the details that led you to your final decision. Look forward to seeing you around the Town Hall. Happy motoring!
Many comments from this post were either subjective views or those already pointed out by other car-review publications.
"And you can see the dials in the windshield -- and that is very annoying." **That would depend on certain lighting conditions.
"Unfortunately, it's marred by the decision to cover the back area with a slippery plastic. Things slid back and forth. Very bad design decision there." **Car and Driver also said things would slide back and forth, but that was from their own reasoning, not from actual experience. Most owners have actually found plastic to be easier to clean and deal with.
"Toyota must have thought this looked cool (most people I know think it looks dreadful) but the net result is that it blocks a large area that I'd rather be able to see out of." **Looks are subjective, although Matrix was styled in Southern California, a place that knows a thing or two about looks. Few owners have complained about rear visibility.
"it steers like a giant boat. Worse, because the Matrix is bigger than the Prius or Echo, you have to steer and steer and steer and steer until finally the car makes the turn you wan. You have to rotate the wheel a lot to get a 180 turn too." **Most reviewers and owners have found the Matrix's steering/handling to be among the best in the compact car class.
"The seats, like the Prius, are short and strange and uncomfortable. And you had to buy a ton of stuff in weird packages to add anything to the car." **What is meant by "strange" seats and "weird packages"? Depending on model grade, Matrix comes with a substantial amount of standard equipment, with some "extra" options.
"I've since spied a lot of Matrices on the street, and two things come to mind immediately. First, they really are very *very* ugly cars. Second, they are *big*looking* cars. They look like small SUVs. It's not a good look." **In recent times, small SUVs have actually had some of the largest increases in sales, no doubt partly because many people like their looks.
I found feijai's commentary to be quite helpful, and fun to read too. Sure, many of his comments were subjective, e.g. styling. But at least his comments were based on his personal experience or that of people he knows. He did not make blanket statements such as, "Most owners have actually found plastic to be easier to clean and deal with," and "Few owners have complained about rear visibility," and "Most...owners have found the Matrix's steering/handling to be among the best in the compact car class." How would one know these things? Has there been a published survey of Matrix owners on those points?
No published survey that I know of. Since he is a contributor over there, I suspect 1matrix is basing his opinion on his own experience and the comments posted on the Edmunds Matrix boards.
I also own one, and find the seats to be comfortable and rarely see reflections in the windows. Contrary to his opinion of the steering, I find it nimble and quick for a car of this size. I do find the rear vision to be not as good as some sedans, but much better than a minivan. The area behind the rear seats is carpeted, so it's only the back of the folded seats that is plastic. This could have something to do with providing access to the tie-down track system, but yes, things do slide on the plastic. If not restrained, things also slide on the carpet.
BTW, feijai is wrong when he describes the tracks as being there to help when sliding heavy loads in and out. Those tracks hold hooks which slide in and can be used to tie down cargo so it doesn't slide around. Ingenious!
I won't comment on styling, as it is lowest on my list and is totally subjective.
All this goes to prove that while opinions and reviews are useful information, you should not rule a car out or in based on them. You must get in any car and form your own opinion.
A journalist is working on a consumer spending outlook story that examines the second half of the year: "I would really like to interview some consumers about how they are feeling right now, given a still depressed stock market, an alarming number of accounting scandals and a tough job market. I would love to know whether you plan to spend less in the second half, save more, etc. What are your financial worries (job security)? Are you worried that the economic recovery is losing steam, and things may start getting worse? Are you shopping for a vehicle, or holding off right now?"
Please direct all responses asap by end of day Tuesday, July 2, 2002, to jfallon@edmunds.com.
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matrix1 is right in that many of my feelings about the Matrix versus Protege5 do come down to how the car "feels". As opposed to the differences between the Protege5 and the Impreza for example (where it was clear that even the Impreza TS had very low gas mileage, for example). That being said, I'd like to respond to some of matrix1's and dogtrainer's comments.
I do agree that plastic is easier to clean. No doubt! And I was really torn on the plastic issue -- I mean, it's just so functional, and I LIKE functional. And when I asked friends in-the-know why they'd not just use a higher-friction rubber rather than slippery plastic in an SUV for example, the response was logical: because you need to slide big heavy things in and out. That makes perfect sense. But this car is not an SUV. You can load Really Heavy Stuff in it, for sure. But loading Really Heavy Stuff is not a *major* task for me, nor I imagine, for most buyers of this segment. And no doubt things will slide about on carpet if you turn hard enough. But on the test drive, small items put in the back of the car by the dealership (I dunno what, maybe some boxes with extra gizmos not installed yet) slid around in the back quite literally like a pinball machine. It was an exercise in physical dynamics! Bam bam bam! I should mention that I didn't get the Protege5's "cargo tray" for the exact same reason: plastic with zero static friction quotient. On a carpeted back, you *might* need to tie things down. On a slippery plastic back, you *have* to tie things down. I think Toyota might have done better to consider their demographic more carefully. Assuming that demographic is like me anyway. :-)
As to the rails: I only repeated what I was told by the dealer. I'd think they were much cooler if they were to help move heavy things in and out, but if they're not, I believe you! So you've let me down there. :-(
After my two test drives of the Matrix, I read a number of articles describing handling as nimble and responsive, just as you mentioned. Well, I'll tell you, in my experience (and I double-checked to make sure) it wasn't even in the same class as the Protege5 or Impreza. I have a good friend who owns an Echo, which I've driven a lot, and I also got a chance to test-drive the Prius. And what really surprised me was just how similar the three cars (Echo, Prius, Matrix) were in handling. It really felt like the steering wheel was connected to the wheels via a giant rubber band! You had to turn the wheel a fair amount before the car would respond. And you had to turn the wheel a *lot* to get a 180. That's forgivable for the Prius and Echo. But not for the Matrix, I think. Taking curves wasn't fun in the least, whereas the Protege5 and Impreza both hugged the curves tightly. Maybe it's a Toyota thing. I dunno. But I strongly suggest that new car buyers see for themselves here. For me, it boiled down to... Protege5 and Impreza fun to drive, Matrix not.
Now, utilitarianism is close to my heart. I strongly considered the Matrix because its sensibilities were so utilitarian. I mean -- the fold-flat back seat design, with the lowering seat bottoms -- and all the little pockets -- functional genius, pure and simple. Built in inverter, also very nice. Almost 30 MPG, very nice indeed. And the window on the hatch opening separately, I could see nice uses for that. But when it came down to it, the Matrix just wasn't an enjoyable car to drive. I didn't want a pedestrian car. Well, I wanted a pedestrian car, but I didn't want a car that FELT pedestrian. And compared with the Protege5, the Matrix does feel very pedestrian.
As to the Matrix's packages. One of the nice features of the Protege5 (but not the Impreza) is that nearly every option is independent of other options. Well, except for air bags and ABS, which for some bizarre reason require the moonroof. That was annoying.
The Matrix's seats are strongly reminiscent of the Echo: the seat bottoms aren't very deep -- they are short. And they sit high, which is fine. But the seats do not have the bucket quality of almost the entire competition I tried (Impreza, PT Cruiser, Impreza, Civic SI). Only the Jetta and Golf Wagons had worse seats -- very pokey in the back. I have no experience with the Focus.
As to the tiny back window: I really was annoyed by this. Not just because it grossly limited the viewable area for me, especially for things very close when backing up, but also because it was *so* unecessary. It was pure style over functionality. Toyota could have made the window twice as tall. But they deliberately made it small, for what appears to be style reasons, and -- here's the strange part -- I know *no one* who thinks the sloping style is anything but ugly. Same complaints about the Focus by the way. So Toyota went out of their way to reduce visibility...in order to make the car uglier! It boggles the mind.
Last, as to the looks of SUVs: I imagine people buy SUVs for their looks. I sure wouldn't. But that's not what the Matrix looks like -- it doesn't look like an SUV -- it looks like a *miniature* SUV. And a boxy one at that, with strange window slope. It's quite unattractive.
I will openly admit that I bought the Protege5 over the Matrix for three basic reasons: handling, optional and standard features, and how it made me feel. But that had been my primary intent all along. I wanted specific functionality; beyond that I wanted something a little fun. Both were within my functionality range. The Matrix was not fun. Which is too bad because the engineer in me keeps screaming about how great the Matrix would have been if the engineers had thought longer about the car.
Yes, my generalized comments concerning positive feedback on the Matrix are based on information and owner opinions available on the Internet, such as Edmunds, EPinions, MSNCarpoint, etc., etc.
One's opinion does count, especially to the person who holds them. I was merely trying to point out that there are many other opinions out there, with much more positive views on the Matrix.
I test drove the Focus 5dr, Matrix, and Protege5; looked at but didn't drive the Elantra GT. I surf, windsurf, mtnbike and cart around an Australian Shepherd almost everywhere I go, so I wanted SPACE (traded a Minivan-spoiled me for lotsa room!). Matrix had the room with those nifty fold-flat seats (the extra front folding helped for surfboards), but like others, I found the handling only so-so. Kinda liked the looks of the Matrix even if they're strange. The P5 on the other hand...(more to come...)
OH MY GAWD! Truly had tears in my eyes driving 200 miles home from the dealer it was so sweet! Crisp, sporty, safe, tight, plenty of power for me, divine seats, great interior layout and ergonomics - the "feel"!! You just hafta drive one to see for yourself. The test drives were great, but that nice long ride up the coast. Whoo boy! It outstripped the competition for me, even with my need for space. There's enough room for my wife and I to go windsurf with 2 boards on top (that handy rack), quiver of 5 sails, 2 booms, 2 masts, misc. gear, wetsuits, helmets, etc. - and the DOG! Alone, I can get my 8'9" board inside (front pass. seat folded fully backwards). It's not the minivan, but it is SOOOOoooo much fun to tool around in, I don't miss it. The rack and hatch make for a very useable rig. Ok, we cant do 5 weeks in Baja so easily as in the minivan, but hey... As langiappe, it's great looking. I couldn't be happier with my choice. I am one tickled coast cruiser... Mazda, you've created a monster (me ;-}
When I test-drove the P5 I finally bought, it had dealer-added $1700 wheels and tires (too 20-something for my 60-something tastes), but I had to keep them on till the next day - and my experience was that these made the ride SOOO harsh compared to the stock Dunlops I swapped to the next day. I wonder if those of you (including professional reviewers) who felt the ride was too rough had different (ultra low provile?)tires. It made a huge difference. I was willling to live with it, but it was an unexpected negative. Imagine my relif (OH MY GAWD!)on the ride home next day...I am truly impressed at Mazda for what they've accomplished in a small pkg. Tanx for listening...
I too test drove the Vibe, Matrix, VW Golf, Subaru Impreza, New Beetle (for fun). Then, just to cover my bases, I tested the Mazda Protege5. And that was that. I bought it 3 days later.
I kind of wanted the interior versatility and mpg of the Matrix/Vibe, with the looks of the P5. Ideally, I wanted the one-touch flat fold seats and flat fold front seat of the Vibe/Matrix (though the plastic is really too slippery-maybe rubberized next time).
But the P5 handled so incredibly well, it put a smile on my face. And it came with so many standard features for less money. It also had a better roof rack, and looked better, and was good enough on the interior useful space (great seats, by the way). I'm getting 31-32 mpg of sensible driving on the hwy, 28 if I mix in city driving. All I can say is try it out!
Yeah, I probably should have driven an Elantra GT, but the looks were hard for me to get around. Personal taste. Exterior is fine, but the dash layout/steering wheel just didn't have the 'pizzaz' of the P5 (which has performance to match IMO). I liked it better than Matrix though because of price, warranty and (yum)leather. I worried some about reliability. I was influenced by this forum on ride/handling which was critical to me because of the time I spend in my car. I could find no fault with the GT and only wished it had a sportier interior (my taste) to make me wanna try one. My priorities were fun and space. Writing this I can see I really should have tried one! Is that what U bought? How do U like it?
Yes I bought an Elantra GT and agree with you that the handling could be better. Improving the handling would trade off some of that excellent highway ride (best riding car I have owned). It handles good enough for me to enjoy and actually keeps me from doing some of the crazy moves I used to make in my 94 Civic Si.
This time around I needed a car that was more practical than sporty. I'm a 49 year old bassplayer and I can flip up the rear seat cushions and fold the back seats flat and fit untold amount of music equip. I love the look of the Elantra and I improved the car with a B&M short shift kit.
Bottom line dude...the P5 is a very nice car and I admit casting admiring glances at it. On long highway trips though I'm glad I bought the GT(not to mention 140 hp). Enjoy your P5!
Thanks for the review! Maybe it's best I didn't drive a GT, I'd have been torn between handling and road comfort! Probably would have gone for handling since I'm bailing from a minivan and want a change. I too spy the GT's I see...Ah, life is compromise (at least when it comes to things). Enjoy the GT! I got to go sailing today and put my big board and sails inside and slid by my local windy lake to play. Very kewl. I had worried about the space until I actually had to use it. Worst thing is, afterwards, I have to load up all that wet gear in my new rig! Tarps help ;-} Ernie
Have you considered the Ford Focus ZX5? Great European handling, and the Ford Focus got CarAndDriver 10Best for EVERY SINGLE YEAR it was sold in North America (2000, 2001, 2002). Even the Honda Accord can't match that.
Worried about recalls? The ZX5 was introduced in Europe in 1999, and not a single recall since then (on this model). The other models had been 'Americanized' and someone goofed up.
Its safe too. You can get ABS, Traction Control, side airbags, and it can come with 4-wheel disc brakes. It has dual 5-star crash safety for frontal collisions with the driver and front passenger.
Great fuel economy, and low insurance costs. Although the looks aren't as aggressive as the Pontiac Vibe or P5, it appears more sophisticated. At least it resembles a hatchback more than the station wagon-like pro5, matrix/vibe, and Elantra.
Unlike many japanese/euro manufactures that easily sell most of their inventory, Ford has a more difficult time, and needs many incentives. 0% financing, several thousand cash back, significantly discounted price, is a huge advantage, especially for the cash strapped student.
While I own a ZX5, and appreciate the praise, you've got a few things wrong there. The Focus ZX5's sold here are just as "Americanized" as the ZX3's. Roll out of the same exact plant. That being said, the 2002 ZX3/ZX5's do not have any recalls. Now where's a piece of wood to knock on ;-)
Sorry for b-to-b posts, but I am wondering when Edmunds.com's hatchback comparo will come out. I read about it several months ago, on a Road Test of a hatchback, and figure it must be here soon. Maybe our Host can give us a clue?
Edmunds' published a Sports Hatchbacks Review a few months ago. Did you see that one? I also created a discussion for it on this board.
I'm not sure when they'll be publishing their next Hatchbacks review, but I could always ask.... You can also submit a question/request, regarding our reviews, using this Feedback Form. Good luck, and thanks for your participation.
Yes, thanks, I saw that review. I was referring to the upcoming review of 5-door hatchbacks that was mentioned in a review of (I think) the PT Cruiser.
What is with Ford? They have already racked up 9 recalls and currently being investigated for possibly 6 more? Should Ford have worked out the kinks before releasing the car early as they admit? Ford Focus is on schedule possibly to surpassed GM's X-cars.
ummmm oh ya......Forgot hatchback discussion....So I decided on an Elantra GT, of course they have their issues. However with the Overall performance, warranty, and price I was very satisfied to pick up an Automatic GT for little over $13K. Apparently my wife is very happy to have it....even so much that I only get to drive it when its needs gas or time for service.
I sure am excited to see the Protege Mazdaspeed for 2003...I sure would like to see them come out with a Hatchback (somewhat partial to hatchbacks)
We have put 14500 miles on our P5, including four 700 mile one-way highway trips, and a half dozen shorter ones of up to 250 miles one-way. While there were gas and bathroom stops on the long trips, neither my wife nor I ever felt the need to get out and "stretch our legs" on any of them. The car rides firmly but not at all uncomfortably. Furthermore, I find the driver's seat to be more comfortable than those on a Camry, Accord, or Focus. The driving position is also better (at least for me) than that of a Focus. What I could do without, however, is road noise. It's no big deal with just the driver and a front seat passenger, but carrying on a conversation between front and rear passengers requires talking louder than normally.
I had planned to buy a used Miata in late fall & keep my 1989 Colt hatchback for snow & to lug things around in. But the Colt bit the dust a month ago. Thought I would just buy another old hatch & proceed with Miata plan until I found out hatches must be older than my '89 (high miles) or brand new. I've looked at some of the new hatch/wagons, but I don't want to buy anything in its first year or two. Otherwise, I might have bought a Focus - glad I waited. Ditto for the New Beetle.
It no longer seems feasible to get a decent hatch and Miata, so I want the most sportscar-like vehicle I can get that will hold things like furniture I find at garage sales. Convertible would be nice, but looks like you have to go to something like a small SUV for that.
I'm 5'1" & have never bought a car with airbags because I have to sit to close for safety. I hate to drive big cars, truck bodies or AT. Cars I have owned: '66 Beetle, '62 MGA 1600, '68 AH Sprite, '61 544 Volvo, '66 small Volvo (forget model), '76 Renault 5 LeCar, '83 Tercel hatch, '89 Colt hatch. If I could get something identical to the Renault 5, with the big soft folding sunroof, cargo space of a huge pickup, yet tiny, my decision would be made. (For those who turn up their noses, the R5's reliabilty was heaven after owning a Brit car. You still see them running all over France, but I must drive here - c'est la vie.)
Fell in love with a 2002 Golf w sunroof, then started reading the horror stories. (Housemate has had 2 Rabbits & thinks all VW's are junk.) Honda's seem boring and overpriced. Gas mileage on the only new Honda hatch sucks. Looking for good mpg, airbag safety, and fun. New or used doesn't matter. Advice please? Thanks.
Hi. How many miles did your 89 Colt have on it when it died? I have one still going with about 106,000 but it has been unreliable as of late. Some weird electrical problem that no one can find. Battery just goes dead for no apparent reason after only a couple of days sitting.
My '87 Mazda 323 did the same thing. Turned out it was the light in the door's keyhole that wouldn't go off. Pulled the fuse and that fixed the problem.
I agree that Matrix plows a lot in hard cornering, but I think its handling is a good compromise of ability to turn plus ability to provide a comfortable ride on long highway drives. This car is actually rated as a midsize because of interior space, which is what I needed, and why I could not consider the Pro5. In my Matrix, people can actually sit in the back seat for long rides, while in the Pro5 my knees were hunched up and touching the back of the front seat.
Styling of course, is subjective, as has been repeated by many posts here, but I happen to love it, and I regularly get compliments and questions from people in parking lots and gas stations. I graduated from the new celica, so as you can imagine, rearward visibility seems like the wide open vistas compared to what I was dealing with before!
If handling is a big priority for you, and you don't mind the firmer highway ride, the Matrix has an option of 17" rims with 50-profile tires, which improve handling a lot.
And I am getting about 32 mpg in mine with about 1000 miles on it...I would assume this is on par with Pro5 and ZX5 drivers out there with automatics?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hi-- I'm looking for an inexpensive, reliable, used hatchback with a warranty. So the Civic sounds perfect... except I've heard bad things about winter/rain/snow handling. Does anyone have any info on this? I'd love a Subaru Impreza Outback, but am reluctant to spend $11k on a car that already has 65,000 miles on it (Boston pricing).
You may also want to post (copy/paste) your message in one of our ongoing Honda Civic discussions. To start, here's Honda Civic Si / SiR and Honda Civic Hatchbacks. Good luck with your decision, and please keep us posted on your purchase.
I have a 2002 Civic Si Hatchback, and I live in Chicago. This winter I've been caught in a few snow storms, and the Civic has handled very well.
The engine has enough low end torque to get it into 4th gear at about 10 - 15 mph without complaint, and the car is very well balanced. I had no problems driving in 4 inches of snow in St. Louis last Christmas with 3 passengers in the car.
If you can drive in snow, you can drive the Civic HB in it.
What do people find is the best way to stop the rear license plate frame from banging against the tailgate when you shut it? My Aerio SX doesn't have holes for screws at the bottom of the plate, and I'd prefer not to drill if possible. I put a strip of weather proofing stuff there to stop it banging, but it still does it.
Make sure that the plate is properly mounted in the frame. Most people simply put the frame over the plate. Remove the plate and slide it behind the tabs on the frame then remount it. I have not had a problem with that rattling on any of my cars since I figured out that those tabs were on the frame.
I took a couple 2-inch-long pieces of rubber tubing (stiff plastic would work too), sliced them longitudinally, and slipped them over the bottom ridge of the plate. They stay in place and cushion the plate when the gate is closed.
Garden hose is too flexible and big... find something about half that size that's good and stiff so it stays crimped on.
Looking for a fuel efficient hatchback? If you don't need to make your purchase right away, here's 5-door (gas/eletric hybrid) hatchback to consider. Release date is expected to be this October.
Comments
Also, for more focused discussion on the PT Turbo, come join us in our new 2003 PT Cruiser Turbo discussion on the Wagons Board. See ya there! ;-)
Revka
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Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
It's great to see America getting back into the 5 doors! I just got back from Germany, and they have so many great 5 doors to choose from!!
I just bought a Protege5 after a long look at a wide range of cars, test-driving everything from the Prius to the BMW 325xi.
I didn't test-drive the Elantra at the time, but have since tried it out. I have no idea how you could conceivably think it was even in the same league as the Protege5 handling-wise. It reminds me very much of the Matrix: as if the steering wheel was connected to the wheels via a giagantic rubber band. It is like a Protege5 only in Bizarro World. Anyway, this plus Hyundai's problematic reliability history, at least according to Consumer Reports, concerns me about the car.
I also didn't test-drive the Focus: I skipped it as I was concerned about reliability issues and the fact that it was, well, a Ford. Though Consumer Reports liked the Focus a lot...until the recalls.
Last, I didn't test-drive the PT Cruiser, though it certainly looks and feels like a fun car. I just couldn't get over the body design. I know that's an irrational decision-making factor, though.
So anyway, on to the sport wagons I did test-drive:
VOLKSWAGON JETTA WAGON
The Prius was the last sedan I test-drove, after a big long list of 'em, ranging from $15K to $35K.
After driving the Prius, it occurred to me that really, I wanted a nicely equipped small, $20K-or-so car. But I also wanted one with good handling. Something fun to drive! Which the Prius is not. And not as small as the Prius, which set my bottom line size-wise. And a new thing came in: after driving many of the more expensive cars, I came to really really want fold-down seats. At some point it occurred to me: why am I looking at small sedans, when small wagons were available at exactly the same size? Just what I was looking for.
DEALERSHIP. Fairfax VW/Volvo, Virginia. I made a beeline for the same dealer that had previously shown me a Passat on an earlier trip. I knew him now, and knew how to get him to show me a car without much grandstanding. Which he did. We test-drove a Jetta wagon, after I had decided that I really wanted a five-door wagon, and the Golf GTI wagon and Beetle were sub-Prius sized.
THE CAR. The wagon was larger than others I was aware of (and subsequently tried). It had the same flat, boxy interior as a Passat and the same uncomfortable seats. The engine wasn't nearly as impressive as the Passat's, and it was louder. The test drive showed the wagon to drive reasonably nimbly but not as much as I would have liked. It was very smooth though.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. The wagon was longer than I'd have liked. I was wary of the repair record of the cars, and Consumer Reports was on-again, off-again about the Jetta, worried about its reliability. And the seats were very uncomfortable. That's an amazingly important thing! It cost more than later models which I liked better.
SUBARU IMPREZA TS WAGON
DEALERSHIP. Farrish Subaru, Fairfax Virginia. My first time to Farrish, I test-drove an Outback, and the salesman had 0% sleaze factor. Just a first-rate guy. The second time to Farrish wasn't nearly as impressive as the first time. The salesman I got wasn't all that interested in me really, and had more sleaze factor than the excellent previous Farrish salesman. I got locked into the same stupid test drive circuit as the first time. He also refused to let me or anyone else test-drive the Subaru Impreza WRX, a much faster, gussied-up version of the TS. Astounding! But I had decided against the WRX anyway, not needing its sports car design. I'm not really a Car and Driver reader. I don't use terms like "willing" to describe an engine, nor words like "aftermarket", "powerplant", or "twisties". Gimme a break.
THE CAR. The TS drove wonderfully. An all-wheel-drive microwagon: it makes for a great sense of control of the road. The car is somewhat ugly, and from the back it strongly recalls the AMC Gremlin. No, honestly. The interior was a little cramped. The engine was fast and powerful and fun. The size of the car was just right, length-wise. Overall, I felt like I was getting warm.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. The car's all wheel drive and large engine, and who knows what else, results in a dismal 20 or so miles per gallon. The treehugger in me refused to let me get a little car with a BMW-level gas mileage. The interior was inferior to later cars I tried. I had no reason for all wheel drive really. And it didn't impress Consumer Reports.
DEALERSHIP. Oursman Fairfax Toyota, Virginia. My Prius salesman was not at the dealership when I came back to try the Matrix. I had heard all sorts of odd things about this car, and just had to try it out. After the Prius Debacle (the car died on the freeway), I'm not sure if he was hiding from me or what. :-) I worked with another salesman with a significantly higher, but not HBL-level, sleaze factor.
THE CAR. The Matrix is a frustrating car. Not a single feature of the car is average in quality: every design decision is either due to raw unadulterated genius or profound stupidity. I was in awe both of the ingenuity of the car and of the mediocrity of it. The Matrix's dash is four circular dials in their own shiny enclosures. It's meant to look cool, but the net result is that, even with the steering wheel at its maximum height, the wheel blocks the dials for me. And you can see the dials in the windshield -- and that is very annoying. The Matrix has an electrical plug (a built-in inverter) so you can plug in your computer, but not your hair dryer or toaster I imagine. :-) A great feature! It saves me from having to buy a $60 inverter myself. The back seats fold totally down, brilliantly automatically moving the seat bottoms forward and down into the wells. The result is a back area that is completely flat. The back area is also filled to the brim with little pockets and places to stick stuff. This is a feature really missing in the Protege5 and Impreza, which have almost no pockets at all in the back. The center of the back are two guide rails making it easy to slide large, heavy objects in and out. Sheer genius. Unfortunately, it's marred by the decision to cover the back area with a slippery plastic. Things slid back and forth. Very bad design decision there.
The Matrix also has an aggressively styled, weird window design that is very tiny in the back. Toyota must have thought this looked cool (most people I know think it looks dreadful) but the net result is that it blocks a large area that I'd rather be able to see out of. The Matrix gets great gas mileage for a crossover vehicle (29mpg vs the Protege5's 25mpg), at least the version with the smaller, Protege5-sized 130HP engine; but it also has significantly worse acceleration. And the Matrix suffers from Prius-Echo-itis: it steers like a giant boat. Worse, because the Matrix is bigger than the Prius or Echo, you have to steer and steer and steer and steer until finally the car makes the turn you wan. You have to rotate the wheel a lot to get a 180 turn too. The seats, like the Prius, are short and strange and uncomfortable. And you had to buy a ton of stuff in weird packages to add anything to the car.
I've since spied a lot of Matrices on the street, and two things come to mind immediately. First, they really are very *very* ugly cars. Second, they are *big*looking* cars. They look like small SUVs. It's not a good look.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. The Matrix drove me bonkers. It could have been such a great car. But so many stupid design decisions marred the brilliant ones that I kept shaking my head. Aimed squarely at the teenager market, yet with awful handling and drive feel. It's not fun to drive in the least. The back is sheer genius, except that you'd have to recarpet it to keep anything from sliding around noisily. The car's seats uncomfortable, and its dash design is ill-conceived. But the plug is a great idea. Man! What a wonderful car this could have been if the designers had worked on it longer.
DEALERSHIP. Rosenthal Honda. Medium sleaze factor. I was "given" a rookie salesman who didn't know much about how to deal with customers. It was frustrating, and made more frustrating by the fact that they didn't have the car I really wanted to try: the Honda Civic Hybrid. No matter: the Hybrid was only available in a very limited set of trims and colors, and of course, no wagon.
THE CAR. The Civic SI, the only "wagon" in the Civic line, is a pocket rocket. It is a Golf GTI-like hatchback with a high-tech engine and it accelerates astoundingly. Handling is not as good as the Impreza or Protege5, but still quite good. The SI was only available in manual, and I had at that point been sold on steptronic automatic. It also had very few options, dorky seats, and was, well, small. Like other Civics, it has a pristine crash test record, a great reliability record, and great gas mileage. But it was just too small.
WHY I DIDN'T BUY IT. Size, manual only, size, limited options, and size.
MAZDA PROTEGE 5
DEALERSHIP. Brown's Mazda Fairfax, Virginia. The sleaze factor at this dealership was relatively low, though not of the tremendous low level of my first visit to Farrish Subaru. I was pointed to a salesman and was able to test drive a Protege5 fairly quickly thereafter.
THE CAR. The Protege5 is somewhat similar to the Impreza, albeit much nicer looking and with a weaker engine (130 horsepower vs 161 or 225 horsepower), though it is a lighter car which compensates to some degree. While the Protege5 was not as good accelerating as the Impreza, it beat the snot out of it when it came to steering. Its steering is very reminiscent of the BMW 325i I test-drove. The interior wasn't as high-tech as other sport wagons I tried, but the design was nicely done. The suspension and handling were stiff and sports-car like, which was fun. The Protege5 also had (unlike the Impreza) a steptronic automatic. At that point I felt I should go for a steptronic automatic as I didn't really want another manual, and an ordinary automatic was, well, boring. The car is also available in leather. The outside is clearly styled for teenagers, with a very, erm, aftermarket feel. Consumer Reports likes the Protege line, though they like the Ford Focus and Civic better. As I mentioned, I didn't even consider the Focus, both because I wasn't willing to buy a Ford, but also because it had recently had a large blob of very serious recalls. And the Civic wasn't available in a wagon (except for the Civic SI, kind of -- see below). Edmunds.com rates the Protege5 as their top-choice in small wagons. And much to my ANNOYANCE, Car and Driver also rated the Protege5 as their top choice in a shoot-out including the Matrix and PT cruiser among others: this meant that all the teenagers would suddenly have an irrational desire for it.
Put simply, the Protege5 was really very fun to drive, and well liked by the authorities. It looked nice. It turned on a dime, and handled exceptionally well. Its crash ratings were okay, but not at the level of the Civic. It got 25mpg, which was within my morality tolerances. Its front bucket seats were exceptionally comfortable. It came with a lot of things standard. Decked out as I wanted it, I figured it would come in in the mid-$19K range. Despite my reservations about the car not being for my target demographic, I really liked this car.
I BOUGHT THIS CAR. But here were the downsides, such as they were. First, it had the smallest engine among its competitors (Impreza, Matrix/Vibe, PT Cruiser, Jetta). Second, it didn't have the gas mileage of the Civic nor even of the Matrix version that had the same-size engine (29MPG). Third, it had a reputation for having a noisy engine. Which didn't bother me at all actually. In truth, I didn't notice it that much. Fourth, it had the least cargo room of its competitors, and the seats, once folded down, didn't have the astonishing seamless fold-flat notion of the Matrix. All that being said, it was still a better car.
Revka
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Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
Many comments from this post were either subjective views or those already pointed out by other car-review publications.
"And you can see the dials in the windshield -- and that is very annoying." **That would depend on certain lighting conditions.
"Unfortunately, it's marred by the decision to cover the back area with a slippery plastic. Things slid back and forth. Very bad design decision there." **Car and Driver also said things would slide back and forth, but that was from their own reasoning, not from actual experience. Most owners have actually found plastic to be easier to clean and deal with.
"Toyota must have thought this looked cool (most people I know think it looks dreadful) but the net result is that it blocks a large area that I'd rather be able to see out of." **Looks are subjective, although Matrix was styled in Southern California, a place that knows a thing or two about looks. Few owners have complained about rear visibility.
"it steers like a giant boat. Worse, because the Matrix is bigger than the Prius or Echo, you have to steer and steer and steer and steer until finally the car makes the turn you wan. You have to rotate the wheel a lot to get a 180 turn too." **Most reviewers and owners have found the Matrix's steering/handling to be among the best in the compact car class.
"The seats, like the Prius, are short and strange and uncomfortable. And you had to buy a ton of stuff in weird packages to add anything to the car." **What is meant by "strange" seats and "weird packages"? Depending on model grade, Matrix comes with a substantial amount of standard equipment, with some "extra" options.
"I've since spied a lot of Matrices on the street, and two things come to mind immediately. First, they really are very *very* ugly cars. Second, they are *big*looking* cars. They look like small SUVs. It's not a good look." **In recent times, small SUVs have actually had some of the largest increases in sales, no doubt partly because many people like their looks.
I also own one, and find the seats to be comfortable and rarely see reflections in the windows. Contrary to his opinion of the steering, I find it nimble and quick for a car of this size. I do find the rear vision to be not as good as some sedans, but much better than a minivan. The area behind the rear seats is carpeted, so it's only the back of the folded seats that is plastic. This could have something to do with providing access to the tie-down track system, but yes, things do slide on the plastic. If not restrained, things also slide on the carpet.
BTW, feijai is wrong when he describes the tracks as being there to help when sliding heavy loads in and out. Those tracks hold hooks which slide in and can be used to tie down cargo so it doesn't slide around. Ingenious!
I won't comment on styling, as it is lowest on my list and is totally subjective.
All this goes to prove that while opinions and reviews are useful information, you should not rule a car out or in based on them. You must get in any car and form your own opinion.
Please direct all responses asap by end of day Tuesday, July 2, 2002, to jfallon@edmunds.com.
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I do agree that plastic is easier to clean. No doubt! And I was really torn on the plastic issue -- I mean, it's just so functional, and I LIKE functional. And when I asked friends in-the-know why they'd not just use a higher-friction rubber rather than slippery plastic in an SUV for example, the response was logical: because you need to slide big heavy things in and out. That makes perfect sense. But this car is not an SUV. You can load Really Heavy Stuff in it, for sure. But loading Really Heavy Stuff is not a *major* task for me, nor I imagine, for most buyers of this segment. And no doubt things will slide about on carpet if you turn hard enough. But on the test drive, small items put in the back of the car by the dealership (I dunno what, maybe some boxes with extra gizmos not installed yet) slid around in the back quite literally like a pinball machine. It was an exercise in physical dynamics! Bam bam bam! I should mention that I didn't get the Protege5's "cargo tray" for the exact same reason: plastic with zero static friction quotient. On a carpeted back, you *might* need to tie things down. On a slippery plastic back, you *have* to tie things down. I think Toyota might have done better to consider their demographic more carefully. Assuming that demographic is like me anyway. :-)
As to the rails: I only repeated what I was told by the dealer. I'd think they were much cooler if they were to help move heavy things in and out, but if they're not, I believe you! So you've let me down there. :-(
After my two test drives of the Matrix, I read a number of articles describing handling as nimble and responsive, just as you mentioned. Well, I'll tell you, in my experience (and I double-checked to make sure) it wasn't even in the same class as the Protege5 or Impreza. I have a good friend who owns an Echo, which I've driven a lot, and I also got a chance to test-drive the Prius. And what really surprised me was just how similar the three cars (Echo, Prius, Matrix) were in handling. It really felt like the steering wheel was connected to the wheels via a giant rubber band! You had to turn the wheel a fair amount before the car would respond. And you had to turn the wheel a *lot* to get a 180. That's forgivable for the Prius and Echo. But not for the Matrix, I think. Taking curves wasn't fun in the least, whereas the Protege5 and Impreza both hugged the curves tightly. Maybe it's a Toyota thing. I dunno. But I strongly suggest that new car buyers see for themselves here. For me, it boiled down to... Protege5 and Impreza fun to drive, Matrix not.
Now, utilitarianism is close to my heart. I strongly considered the Matrix because its sensibilities were so utilitarian. I mean -- the fold-flat back seat design, with the lowering seat bottoms -- and all the little pockets -- functional genius, pure and simple. Built in inverter, also very nice. Almost 30 MPG, very nice indeed. And the window on the hatch opening separately, I could see nice uses for that. But when it came down to it, the Matrix just wasn't an enjoyable car to drive. I didn't want a pedestrian car. Well, I wanted a pedestrian car, but I didn't want a car that FELT pedestrian. And compared with the Protege5, the Matrix does feel very pedestrian.
As to the Matrix's packages. One of the nice features of the Protege5 (but not the Impreza) is that nearly every option is independent of other options. Well, except for air bags and ABS, which for some bizarre reason require the moonroof. That was annoying.
The Matrix's seats are strongly reminiscent of the Echo: the seat bottoms aren't very deep -- they are short. And they sit high, which is fine. But the seats do not have the bucket quality of almost the entire competition I tried (Impreza, PT Cruiser, Impreza, Civic SI). Only the Jetta and Golf Wagons had worse seats -- very pokey in the back. I have no experience with the Focus.
As to the tiny back window: I really was annoyed by this. Not just because it grossly limited the viewable area for me, especially for things very close when backing up, but also because it was *so* unecessary. It was pure style over functionality. Toyota could have made the window twice as tall. But they deliberately made it small, for what appears to be style reasons, and -- here's the strange part -- I know *no one* who thinks the sloping style is anything but ugly. Same complaints about the Focus by the way. So Toyota went out of their way to reduce visibility...in order to make the car uglier! It boggles the mind.
Last, as to the looks of SUVs: I imagine people buy SUVs for their looks. I sure wouldn't. But that's not what the Matrix looks like -- it doesn't look like an SUV -- it looks like a *miniature* SUV. And a boxy one at that, with strange window slope. It's quite unattractive.
I will openly admit that I bought the Protege5 over the Matrix for three basic reasons: handling, optional and standard features, and how it made me feel. But that had been my primary intent all along. I wanted specific functionality; beyond that I wanted something a little fun. Both were within my functionality range. The Matrix was not fun. Which is too bad because the engineer in me keeps screaming about how great the Matrix would have been if the engineers had thought longer about the car.
One's opinion does count, especially to the person who holds them. I was merely trying to point out that there are many other opinions out there, with much more positive views on the Matrix.
Also, come join us in our new Ford (5- door) SVT Focus discussion. Thanks for your participation.
Revka
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Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
I kind of wanted the interior versatility and mpg of the Matrix/Vibe, with the looks of the P5. Ideally, I wanted the one-touch flat fold seats and flat fold front seat of the Vibe/Matrix (though the plastic is really too slippery-maybe rubberized next time).
But the P5 handled so incredibly well, it put a smile on my face. And it came with so many standard features for less money. It also had a better roof rack, and looked better, and was good enough on the interior useful space (great seats, by the way). I'm getting 31-32 mpg of sensible driving on the hwy, 28 if I mix in city driving. All I can say is try it out!
Yes I bought an Elantra GT and agree with you that the handling could be better. Improving the handling would trade off some of that excellent highway ride (best riding car I have owned). It handles good enough for me to enjoy and actually keeps me from doing some of the crazy moves I used to make in my 94 Civic Si.
This time around I needed a car that was more practical than sporty. I'm a 49 year old bassplayer and I can flip up the rear seat cushions and fold the back seats flat and fit untold amount of music equip. I love the look of the Elantra and I improved the car with a B&M short shift kit.
Bottom line dude...the P5 is a very nice car and I admit casting admiring glances at it. On long highway trips though I'm glad I bought the GT(not to mention 140 hp). Enjoy your P5!
I got to go sailing today and put my big board and sails inside and slid by my local windy lake to play. Very kewl. I had worried about the space until I actually had to use it. Worst thing is, afterwards, I have to load up all that wet gear in my new rig! Tarps help ;-}
Ernie
Ernie
Great European handling, and the Ford Focus got CarAndDriver 10Best for EVERY SINGLE YEAR it was sold in North America (2000, 2001, 2002). Even the Honda Accord can't match that.
Worried about recalls? The ZX5 was introduced in Europe in 1999, and not a single recall since then (on this model). The other models had been 'Americanized' and someone goofed up.
Its safe too. You can get ABS, Traction Control, side airbags, and it can come with 4-wheel disc brakes. It has dual 5-star crash safety for frontal collisions with the driver and front passenger.
Great fuel economy, and low insurance costs. Although the looks aren't as aggressive as the Pontiac Vibe or P5, it appears more sophisticated. At least it resembles a hatchback more than the station wagon-like pro5, matrix/vibe, and Elantra.
Unlike many japanese/euro manufactures that easily sell most of their inventory, Ford has a more difficult time, and needs many incentives. 0% financing, several thousand cash back, significantly discounted price, is a huge advantage, especially for the cash strapped student.
By the way, I've been very happy with my ZX5.
I'm not sure when they'll be publishing their next Hatchbacks review, but I could always ask.... You can also submit a question/request, regarding our reviews, using this Feedback Form. Good luck, and thanks for your participation.
Revka
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Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Ford Focus is on schedule possibly to surpassed GM's X-cars.
And now back to the subject of Which Hatchback? Thanks for your participation.
Revka
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Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
I sure am excited to see the Protege Mazdaspeed for 2003...I sure would like to see them come out with a Hatchback (somewhat partial to hatchbacks)
The car rides firmly but not at all uncomfortably. Furthermore, I find the driver's seat to be more comfortable than those on a Camry, Accord, or Focus. The driving position is also better (at least for me) than that of a Focus. What I could do without, however, is road noise. It's no big deal with just the driver and a front seat passenger, but carrying on a conversation between front and rear passengers requires talking louder than normally.
It no longer seems feasible to get a decent hatch and Miata, so I want the most sportscar-like vehicle I can get that will hold things like furniture I find at garage sales. Convertible would be nice, but looks like you have to go to something like a small SUV for that.
I'm 5'1" & have never bought a car with airbags because I have to sit to close for safety. I hate to drive big cars, truck bodies or AT. Cars I have owned: '66 Beetle, '62 MGA 1600, '68 AH Sprite, '61 544 Volvo, '66 small Volvo (forget model), '76 Renault 5 LeCar, '83 Tercel hatch, '89 Colt hatch. If I could get something identical to the Renault 5, with the big soft folding sunroof, cargo space of a huge pickup, yet tiny, my decision would be made. (For those who turn up their noses, the R5's reliabilty was heaven after owning a Brit car. You still see them running all over France, but I must drive here - c'est la vie.)
Fell in love with a 2002 Golf w sunroof, then started reading the horror stories. (Housemate has had 2 Rabbits & thinks all VW's are junk.) Honda's seem boring and overpriced. Gas mileage on the only new Honda hatch sucks. Looking for good mpg, airbag safety, and fun. New or used doesn't matter. Advice please? Thanks.
Erik
Erik
Styling of course, is subjective, as has been repeated by many posts here, but I happen to love it, and I regularly get compliments and questions from people in parking lots and gas stations. I graduated from the new celica, so as you can imagine, rearward visibility seems like the wide open vistas compared to what I was dealing with before!
If handling is a big priority for you, and you don't mind the firmer highway ride, the Matrix has an option of 17" rims with 50-profile tires, which improve handling a lot.
And I am getting about 32 mpg in mine with about 1000 miles on it...I would assume this is on par with Pro5 and ZX5 drivers out there with automatics?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm looking for an inexpensive, reliable, used hatchback with a warranty. So the Civic sounds perfect... except I've heard bad things about winter/rain/snow handling. Does anyone have any info on this?
I'd love a Subaru Impreza Outback, but am reluctant to spend $11k on a car that already has 65,000 miles on it (Boston pricing).
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
I have a 2002 Civic Si Hatchback, and I live in Chicago. This winter I've been caught in a few snow storms, and the Civic has handled very well.
The engine has enough low end torque to get it into 4th gear at about 10 - 15 mph without complaint, and the car is very well balanced. I had no problems driving in 4 inches of snow in St. Louis last Christmas with 3 passengers in the car.
If you can drive in snow, you can drive the Civic HB in it.
What do people find is the best way to stop the rear license plate frame from banging against the tailgate when you shut it? My Aerio SX doesn't have holes for screws at the bottom of the plate, and I'd prefer not to drill if possible. I put a strip of weather proofing stuff there to stop it banging, but it still does it.
Garden hose is too flexible and big... find something about half that size that's good and stiff so it stays crimped on.
For those interested, come join us in our new Upcoming Toyota Prius discussion. Thanks for your participation!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
I have the red color and I have gray primer showing thru all over the hood, but I only have 12,000 miles on the car.
Also the car has had 2 coats of paste wax in the year I had it now.