Are you a current Michigan-based car shopper? A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/2 for details.
They turn it into drudgery by cutting off the technician from the public; by giving him monotonous tasks--same car same problem, day after day; by regimenting his hours and breaks; by not showing appreciation for a job well done.
The thing is, though, that automotive work really IS fun! People go into this field because they love it; it's interesting, challenging, and rewarding work! So, it's a shame that the "industry" has figured out how to make the work a drudgery such that all the negative aspects overpower the inherent rewards of the job.
An "Industry" has standards, the automotive trade as it is today does not. As far as turning into a drudgery, that is right on the money, but its not just the people managing the trade that has accomplished that. There are quite a few outside of it who deserve a share of the credit.
That's kind of cool. So back in '69 they expected that it would take three years. Cars were much simpler then, and they were only talking about one car. Today that time frame is some fifteen to twenty years, with no real finish line. The closer one gets to mastering the trade, the more you find out that you have yet to learn....
Please be advised the Ford/AAA Student Auto Skills competition officially ended with the 2015 event.
Although AAA and Ford have long been associated with the program, we were not its originators. The Auto Skills program began many years ago by other organizations that also made great contributions to the legacy of this important program.
AAA has proudly sponsored the Student Auto Skills competition for the past three decades, while Ford has sponsored for the past two decades. Both Ford and AAA value the relationships formed with the schools and the other sponsors, who have been instrumental in developing talented young technicians for the automobile industry by helping strengthen the link between education and quality car care.
After careful consideration, AAA has decided to discontinue its national sponsorship of the Student Auto Skills competition. AAA remains committed to meeting the changing needs of motorists and will continue to focus resources towards improving its services for the 56 million members while keeping the motoring public safe and informed of changing vehicle technology.
You have to read the comments. In the past just about anyone who wanted to be a writer could pen one of these articles and they got anointed as an "expert" and techs were left to deal with the fallout from the perpetuation of the stereotypes.
For me it all comes down to dealing with people that you can trust. For example, both my BMW and Mazda dealers have recommended new rotors with a set of pads- but in a couple of cases they have also advised that rotor replacement was not needed. My BMW dealer recommended changing the plugs at 56,000 miles on the 2009 3er but in the case of the X3 they didn't suggest changing the plugs until 113,000 miles. The indie shops I use are equally trustworthy. I remain loyal to those dealers and shops and won't go elsewhere just to try to save a few dollars.
That said, I'm currently considering replacing the Mazda with a Camaro SS 1LE, a Challenger SRT8, or a Mustang GT w the Performance Package, and I am hoping I can find a local dealer that has a service department that isn't hopelessly inept. The initial signs are not encouraging...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
As Seen On TV. A Toyota dealer advertising for a master technician to hire. That brings a mixed bag of reactions but the strongest one is that it serves them right that they have to go to such a length to try and find someone, anyone. There are some techs out there that can do the job, they don't want to work under the abusive flat rate pay plans that most dealers push.
As Seen On TV. A Toyota dealer advertising for a master technician to hire. That brings a mixed bag of reactions but the strongest one is that it serves them right that they have to go to such a length to try and find someone, anyone. There are some techs out there that can do the job, they don't want to work under the abusive flat rate pay plans that most dealers push.
Well, they (the dealers) made the bed.....
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Lots of people go to AutoZone to get their car fixed.
"The Parts Professionals at O’Reilly Auto Parts can perform a quick diagnostic test to help you understand why that pesky light keeps coming on.
Most of our stores can loan you a code reader for OBD 1&2 systems for vehicles from 1996 and up, except in California and Hawaii where it is prohibited by law."
Yea whatever, and the fact that they are after the parts sales anyway that they can get them seems to get lost in the translation. Why do you think it is illegal in California and Hawaii? They got caught selling parts from code pulls that DID NOT fix the problems.
If that's illegal then 50% of all repair shops and dealerships might be in trouble
That's all you hear on these boards on any given day: "so the dealer replaced the module/sensor/ecm/front end bushings, but it didn't fix the problem".
If that's illegal then 50% of all repair shops and dealerships might be in trouble
They are in trouble and rightly so. You are seeing the effects of decades worth of abuse and the fact that the people who the trade really needs to attract would never consider it for a career.
That's all you hear on these boards on any given day: "so the dealer replaced the module/sensor/ecm/front end bushings, but it didn't fix the problem".
So how did all of the "free" competition help those vehicle owners? If there is anything that has been demonstrated time and again it takes discipline, experience, and a lot of training to perform diagnostics and yet there is still the pressure to vilify the fact that it cannot be done for free. With that kind of pressure thats been imposed on techs over the last thirty to forty years you shouldn't ask why there is a shortage of qualified technicians, you should be asking why are there any at all.
If that's illegal then 50% of all repair shops and dealerships might be in trouble
That's all you hear on these boards on any given day: "so the dealer replaced the module/sensor/ecm/front end bushings, but it didn't fix the problem".
Then there are the wingnuts at graphicguy's Cadillac dealer- who only know how to write "Operating as designed." or "Unable to diagnose, no code detected." I'm just glad I have my own code readers; self defense in case my state legislature becomes as addled as the idiot lawmakers in CA or HI.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Then there are the wingnuts at graphicguy's Cadillac dealer- who only know how to write "Operating as designed." or "Unable to diagnose, no code detected."
With the way that they are paid to investigate issues you should be glad consumers get any response at all because it is getting to the point that the techs aren't getting paid anything for a significant percentage of incidents. This goes hand in hand with someone promoting the false perception that all you have to do is pull a code and that tells you what is wrong. When people try to do the work that way they repeatedly fail which is what shifty is referring to when he wrote "That's all you hear on these boards on any given day: "so the dealer replaced the module/sensor/ecm/front end bushings, but it didn't fix the problem". The techs can get paid the first time to take that fast shot which IMO is no different than someone providing any opinion about what is wrong with a car based on the symptom alone without truly investigating it. Educated guesses are still guesses. Meanwhile there is the tendency to denigrate techs who would take a disciplined approach to diagnostics, and especially towards shops that charge sufficiently to allow them to do so.
This all adds up to the techs are wrong if they shoot from the hip and miss, and they are wrong if they truly study and investigate a given issue even when they get it right, the first time. After almost forty years fixing cars I can attest to the fact that three out of five things that I do today end up being things that I've never seen before and that's after several million line items over my career. There is only one approach to work at this level and that takes constant study and discipline on top of the experience and training that took decades to aquire.
I'm just glad I have my own code readers; self defense in case my state legislature becomes as addled as the idiot lawmakers in CA or HI.
BTW your usage of the word "wingnuts" above. Why is it necessary, for that matter tolerated when any kind of a slur is used against a gender, race or in this case trade? As if the work isn't challenging enough with pay and benefit packages that are substandard, potential prospects to become technicians have to also subject themselves to no shortage of indignities. And then people wonder why they can't find qualified techs.
Well he was referring to one specific set of technicians at one location, so I didn't interpret it as an insult to everyone in the field.
As for FIY--- if society allows any New Age quack to open a storefront and practice medicine, I don't see why it shouldn't tolerate "new age" auto repair, even if it involves duct tape and preposterous claims made by sellers of gadgets and snake oil.
If you want to put some horrible goo in your engine or throw parts at a technical problem, that should be your right to do so, presuming you accept the consequences.
Well he was referring to one specific set of technicians at one location, so I didn't interpret it as an insult to everyone in the field.
Exactly; I know more than a few attorneys, doctors, judges, teachers, etc. that I would classify as wingnuts as well- it's what they are, not what they do...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Then there are the wingnuts at graphicguy's Cadillac dealer- who only know how to write "Operating as designed." or "Unable to diagnose, no code detected." I'm just glad I have my own code readers; self defense in case my state legislature becomes as addled as the idiot lawmakers in CA or HI.
So why haven't you told him and the dealer what is wrong with his car?
So why haven't you told him and the dealer what is wrong with his car?
Gee, that's a toughie- maybe it's because my code readers are BMW and Mazda specific. Then there's the salient fact that I am not a Cadillac technician. However, after "after several million line items" you should be able to solve every issue during a short coffee break. Why not pop over to Edmunds Members - Cars & Conversations, ask for graphicguy, and sort everything out?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Gee, that's a toughie- maybe it's because my code readers are BMW and Mazda specific. Then there's the salient fact that I am not a Cadillac technician.
Well I "could" use that same excuse, I'm not a Cadillac technician either and I do have the Mazda IDS, and above average support for BMW (plus more than a dozen other manufacturers). I do in fact have a current subscription to the GM GDS2 so combined with my other toys there is no doubt that I could figure out his car, but one of the comments in thread already nailed the problem. (paraphrased) "There are people smart enough to figure this out, its just that nobody wants to pay them to do so."
However, after "after several million line items" you should be able to solve every issue during a short coffee break. Why not pop over to Edmunds Members - Cars & Conversations, ask for graphicguy, and sort everything out?
I'm the one person on this board that genuinely can figure out that car and its more than likely one will get dropped off some day but it won't be done "during a coffee break". How frequently does the car act up? How many miles does it have to be driven and under what conditions is it likely to occur? (what accessories are active, ambient weather conditions etc. etc.) Once it occurs how long until the next event? Are we talking about needing to drive this ten miles, twenty miles, or several hundred miles in order to capture enough events to analyze the problem? "GG" called this a ghost, so that means it falls under the heading of a random intermittent and that reveals the real nature of the problem.
I can directly monitor some ten+ inputs/outputs simultaneously on top of recording the PCM's serial data and that is how we prove where the system is breaking down but it is tedious work, not to mention comes with its own touch of danger since it must be performed on the road. With each failure event the data can be studied, and then the next group of logical testing points chosen in order to narrow the focus and eventually drill down to the failure. The first thing that has to be figured out is what is being lost, spark, fuel, both? Once that is identified then the inputs that are required for the computer to generate those commands must be confirmed as to whether they drop out prior to the stall or not. Then the testing progresses to answering why whatever input or command is failing and then and only then do you end up with the diagnosis. Anyone who attempts to tackle this other than with a disciplined, patient, logical approach deserves to add their names to your wing-nut list and that goes double for anyone who would assume that the answer to this car has any correlation to a different one stalling at stops.
"As counterintuitive as it sounds—reliability doesn’t matter as much as you might think. At least for now. That’s largely because Tesla’s customer service is so responsive. The company is known for replacing an entire electric motor within 24 hours instead of tinkering with one troublesome part on the unit for days, says Edmunds, who adds that it seems to be Tesla’s preferred way of doing service.
“In a regular car, if your water pump went out, the company wouldn’t give you a new motor,” Edmunds says. “The company has an Apple Store approach to service. They’ll change the whole unit, give the customer a new one and then take back the problematic one, rebuild it, analyze what went wrong, learn from it, and put it into somebody else’s car that needs that part.”
When these cars do start to get to be offered to more of the public and especially when they are then subject to the finances of the second or subsequent owner, then their real comparative value will be able to be judged.
Cadillac has floated the Microsoft method - instead of leasing your car (your software "license"), you subscribe to Cadillac. Your subscription entitles you to drive certain models, and a higher subscription rate gets you more choice in cars or higher trim levels.
“Once we break the paradigm of viewing car ownership as something that is very formally contractual and attached to one physical car then we can enrich the customer’s life by adding the dimensions of flexibility,” de Nysschen said. “For example one day you may want a sports car. The next day you may need a large SUV. We envision a future in which we will deliver the Cadillac you desire to your doorstep.”
One of the nice things about this model is you eliminate car maintenance from your life.
@stever, The problem is nobody will want a Cadillac using that model.
LOL. Those that want that kind of an ownership model only want to be the first person in each of those cars. They overlook the fact that there has to be a second/third/fourth etc. or else they would have to cover all of the cost of the vehicle themselves and still not own it.
[O]n Tuesday, the Library of Congress issued exemptions to DMCA that pleased many auto enthusiasts. In a ruling that also freed those who wish to modify tablets and smart TVs, the LOC said, more or less, monkey away.
You can mess with your car’s software at will. Just not the A/V stuff or the black box. In a year, so the Environmental Protection Agency and other regulators can ready themselves
“Once the exemption is in place, tinkerers will have more freedom to alter their automobiles without fear of reprisal, at least due to copyright laws,” Klint Finley wrote at Wired."
Been working on my own car. Check engine light came on. I got out my trusty $14 code reader (works great!) and found the 0456 code--EVAP, very small leak. So I inspected the gas cap, saw a cracking gasket and figured "worth a shot". New cap $21, erased the light, so far so good. Yeah, I know, just a guess, but I don' t happen to have a scan tool that activates solenoids or measures fuel tank pressures, and gee, my smoke machine seems to be missing as well. Sometimes a man longs for a '51 Chevy.
New cap $21, erased the light, so far so good. Yeah, I know, just a guess, but I don' t happen to have a scan tool that activates solenoids or measures fuel tank pressures, and gee, my smoke machine seems to be missing as well.
So what are the possible reasons that the light hasn't come back on? Maybe you did fix it, however with the above scenario the only proof you will get is for the light to come on and prove that you didn't actually fix it. (The light not coming back on isn't actually proof and could be nothing more than coincidental) So if that didn't fix it, why hasn't the light come on yet? Lots of possible reasons, the easiest one being that you simply have not met the criteria for the test to run. The other could be that the failure is random in nature and will need to first meet the test enabling criteria, and then it has to result in two successive failures. If the system is switching back and forth between successive pass and fail states then the light will stay off. Without really diagnosing this all that anyone can do is speculate and wait for proof which again can only be that it didn't work.
These last few weeks have been interesting. Between articles here that revealed writers who struggled with basic services, (from tire pressures to oil changes) that apprentice technicians would be lambasted for if they had problems completing, to no less than six trade sites that are all wrestling with the shortage of qualified techs a lot of the things that we have been predicting are coming true.
True but there were only little cracks in it. In the past, merely turning off the light with no repair would just re-illuminate it after the car sat overnight. Now, no such occurrence. Should it recur, I will examine the EVAP cannister.
Our store would get cars traded in sometimes where the Check Engine light would "just happen" to come on days after we took the car in. Hioghly suspected the owners would disconnect the battery knowing it could take days for the light to come back on.
Maybe they had received an expensive estimate to do a repair?
It's quite likely. The information that can be found via Google can work against someone just as easily as it could work for someone. Lets take an evaporative system problem. The monitor can be blocked by either a completely full fuel tank, or an almost empty one. Catalyst efficiency, keep the car next to empty and the misfire and fuel trim monitors will be blocked and they have to complete and pass in order to run the catalyst so you don't get any indication that there is a problem until someone puts gas in the car and then drives it far enough, (twice) to get the monitors to run and generate a code. So its quite likely you had people who cheated you.
I've told the story before about how I had a customer who insisted that we pay top dollar for their Mazda minivan that they wanted to trade in. It looked to be in excellent condition and it dorve perfectly so we stepped up to the plate and paid a lot more than we wanted to. We actually took a loss on the new Odyssey figuring we could make it up when we sold the trade.
The next morning when we went to move the Mazda, it wouldn't move! After ideling in drive for at least five minutes, it finally slipped into gear and it drove just fine.
We took it to the local Mazda dealer who, after putting the VIN number into their computer informed us that the previous owner had brought it in the week before.
They had diagnosed the Mazda as needing to have it's transmission overhauled at a cost of over 3000.00!
Comments
Please be advised the Ford/AAA Student Auto Skills competition officially ended with the 2015 event.
Although AAA and Ford have long been associated with the program, we were not its originators. The Auto Skills program began many years ago by other organizations that also made great contributions to the legacy of this important program.
AAA has proudly sponsored the Student Auto Skills competition for the past three decades, while Ford has sponsored for the past two decades. Both Ford and AAA value the relationships formed with the schools and the other sponsors, who have been instrumental in developing talented young technicians for the automobile industry by helping strengthen the link between education and quality car care.
After careful consideration, AAA has decided to discontinue its national sponsorship of the Student Auto Skills competition. AAA remains committed to meeting the changing needs of motorists and will continue to focus resources towards improving its services for the 56 million members while keeping the motoring public safe and informed of changing vehicle technology.
You know, someone like Apple or Google....
And I'm talking about the engines, sheet metal and drivetrains - the heck with the electronics.
You have to read the comments. In the past just about anyone who wanted to be a writer could pen one of these articles and they got anointed as an "expert" and techs were left to deal with the fallout from the perpetuation of the stereotypes.
That said, I'm currently considering replacing the Mazda with a Camaro SS 1LE, a Challenger SRT8, or a Mustang GT w the Performance Package, and I am hoping I can find a local dealer that has a service department that isn't hopelessly inept. The initial signs are not encouraging...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Is it a money grab by the state or are they really worried about the shortage of qualified technicians?
"The Parts Professionals at O’Reilly Auto Parts can perform a quick diagnostic test to help you understand why that pesky light keeps coming on.
Most of our stores can loan you a code reader for OBD 1&2 systems for vehicles from 1996 and up, except in California and Hawaii where it is prohibited by law."
(link and link)
Let me know when every tech and every dealer fixes the problem the first time.
That's all you hear on these boards on any given day: "so the dealer replaced the module/sensor/ecm/front end bushings, but it didn't fix the problem".
I'm just glad I have my own code readers; self defense in case my state legislature becomes as addled as the idiot lawmakers in CA or HI.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This all adds up to the techs are wrong if they shoot from the hip and miss, and they are wrong if they truly study and investigate a given issue even when they get it right, the first time. After almost forty years fixing cars I can attest to the fact that three out of five things that I do today end up being things that I've never seen before and that's after several million line items over my career. There is only one approach to work at this level and that takes constant study and discipline on top of the experience and training that took decades to aquire. BTW your usage of the word "wingnuts" above. Why is it necessary, for that matter tolerated when any kind of a slur is used against a gender, race or in this case trade? As if the work isn't challenging enough with pay and benefit packages that are substandard, potential prospects to become technicians have to also subject themselves to no shortage of indignities. And then people wonder why they can't find qualified techs.
As for FIY--- if society allows any New Age quack to open a storefront and practice medicine, I don't see why it shouldn't tolerate "new age" auto repair, even if it involves duct tape and preposterous claims made by sellers of gadgets and snake oil.
If you want to put some horrible goo in your engine or throw parts at a technical problem, that should be your right to do so, presuming you accept the consequences.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
However, after "after several million line items" you should be able to solve every issue during a short coffee break. Why not pop over to Edmunds Members - Cars & Conversations, ask for graphicguy, and sort everything out?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I can directly monitor some ten+ inputs/outputs simultaneously on top of recording the PCM's serial data and that is how we prove where the system is breaking down but it is tedious work, not to mention comes with its own touch of danger since it must be performed on the road. With each failure event the data can be studied, and then the next group of logical testing points chosen in order to narrow the focus and eventually drill down to the failure. The first thing that has to be figured out is what is being lost, spark, fuel, both? Once that is identified then the inputs that are required for the computer to generate those commands must be confirmed as to whether they drop out prior to the stall or not. Then the testing progresses to answering why whatever input or command is failing and then and only then do you end up with the diagnosis. Anyone who attempts to tackle this other than with a disciplined, patient, logical approach deserves to add their names to your wing-nut list and that goes double for anyone who would assume that the answer to this car has any correlation to a different one stalling at stops.
"As counterintuitive as it sounds—reliability doesn’t matter as much as you might think. At least for now. That’s largely because Tesla’s customer service is so responsive. The company is known for replacing an entire electric motor within 24 hours instead of tinkering with one troublesome part on the unit for days, says Edmunds, who adds that it seems to be Tesla’s preferred way of doing service.
“In a regular car, if your water pump went out, the company wouldn’t give you a new motor,” Edmunds says. “The company has an Apple Store approach to service. They’ll change the whole unit, give the customer a new one and then take back the problematic one, rebuild it, analyze what went wrong, learn from it, and put it into somebody else’s car that needs that part.”
Here's the reason Tesla can get away with reliability issues (Fortune)
“Once we break the paradigm of viewing car ownership as something that is very formally contractual and attached to one physical car then we can enrich the customer’s life by adding the dimensions of flexibility,” de Nysschen said. “For example one day you may want a sports car. The next day you may need a large SUV. We envision a future in which we will deliver the Cadillac you desire to your doorstep.”
One of the nice things about this model is you eliminate car maintenance from your life.
Cadillac enlists lust, hedonism and car-sharing to fight off Uber (washingtonpost.com)
Techs will still be needed; they'll just be more like fleet techs and won't have to deal with the great unwashed masses.
[O]n Tuesday, the Library of Congress issued exemptions to DMCA that pleased many auto enthusiasts. In a ruling that also freed those who wish to modify tablets and smart TVs, the LOC said, more or less, monkey away.
You can mess with your car’s software at will. Just not the A/V stuff or the black box. In a year, so the Environmental Protection Agency and other regulators can ready themselves
“Once the exemption is in place, tinkerers will have more freedom to alter their automobiles without fear of reprisal, at least due to copyright laws,” Klint Finley wrote at Wired."
Hacking your car is cool with us, says U.S. copyright authority (Washington Post)
These last few weeks have been interesting. Between articles here that revealed writers who struggled with basic services, (from tire pressures to oil changes) that apprentice technicians would be lambasted for if they had problems completing, to no less than six trade sites that are all wrestling with the shortage of qualified techs a lot of the things that we have been predicting are coming true.
Maybe they had received an expensive estimate to do a repair?
The next morning when we went to move the Mazda, it wouldn't move! After ideling in drive for at least five minutes, it finally slipped into gear and it drove just fine.
We took it to the local Mazda dealer who, after putting the VIN number into their computer informed us that
the previous owner had brought it in the week before.
They had diagnosed the Mazda as needing to have it's transmission overhauled at a cost of over 3000.00!
"Customer declined repair"
So, yeah, we had people who would cheat us.