A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    reading 90 plots on a cellphone----I don't think so!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2015
    Still not getting it - the sensors and computers read all that stuff. You get the message - "your LR tire is incorrect for the axle, your RF tire is incorrect for the axle". Or "your flywheel is damaged in quadrant 28 and needs immediate replacement".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A modern jet fighter can't even do that.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2015
    Yet....

    In the old days if your aircraft suffered a shot to the fuel tank, you were toast. In WWII they lined the tank with a rubber bladder and it self-sealed itself. You'll still get the "email" that a tank suffered a puncture.

    Self healing aircraft wings are now within the realm of the doable. (Independent UK) That's kind of like the seal healing paint that Nissan introduced a few years back.

    So why couldn't a cracked flywheel heal itself? A circuit could easily do that or just reroute itself to a different trace on the silicon board.


  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think that's the way cars are going to go, toward self-diagnostics for the consumer. I think they will go into module-replacement because putting all that computing power into a hostile environment like a car (as opposed to having it stationed in a repair facility) will create a technical nightmare. Basically you are asking a computer to fix a computer---you see the problem?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2015
    I see a problem for people wanting to be car mechanics. :)

    The diagnostic stuff can be in a repair facility that the car talks to. Stick a Cray at the dealership, who cares. Replace the entire drivetrain, who cares. So long as the car can limp to the repair place, a 15 minute module replacement would be the ticket.

    And yeah, the drivetrain would be one of those modules. If you can swap out a Bug engine in a minute why not a Spark's?

    Let some robot in Sri Lanka rebuild or recycle the module.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850

    Are you saying that the technician makes only $18 on the $425 front brake job on my Mini? I find that hard to believe.

    Under warranty, that's what a tech would get for that Challenger SRT brake job if he/she makes $30/hour.
    I'll look up the customer pay and warranty times for your Mini a little later. What year is it? Are there any options that I need to know about?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Your Mini. Front brakes are .8 with no additions listed for the rotors. So that would be $24.00 under warranty. Mitchell lists 1.0 for the brakes, and .2 per rotor so the customer pay rate is 1.4, which would pay the tech $42.00 for the exact same amount of work.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Ya know, I bet that the computer controllers we have in cars now could have helped the Avrocar have a bit more stable flight characteristic


  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,709
    Steve, your module idea is not a bad one. I see a few problems that would really need to be considered, though. First, vehicular systems are really spread out across the area of the vehicle. so, how would a module work? Would it be a positional quadrant of the vehicle, where everything within, regardless of actual system, was part of it, or would it be more like a layer?

    How would you deal with a problem within the brain of the system? It might *seem* like the issue lied in one ore more modules across the vehicular system, but replacing those areas results in no change. As with anything, self-diagnostics are only as good as long as the system integrity is intact.

    What you're talking about makes me think of Cubelets (pretty cool invention), except trying to apply the concept to an inestimably more complex system. No doubt, a system like that would be fantastic for keeping vehicles in working order. Getting there, though.... what would you give up?
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    lol at Cubelets - where did you find those? And the pitchman. Is he really in Boulder and not FBX? :D

    Modules are spread out but they can "talk" to each other, even if a lot of the sensors are just reacting passively to an "inquiry". Some stuff would be positional, other stuff would just have a pass/fail on the operating parameters. Failure means the part first tries to fix itself. If it's a wear item (say, brake pads), then your dash lights up with the info, cc'd to the "repair" facility. Likely a poor example - why are brakes still "wear" items? Why not electricmagnetic braking that captures the otherwise waste energy?

    How many "systems" are we talking about? Six or eight?

    powertrain
    suspension and wheels
    active safety
    lighting and electrical
    steering
    braking

    There's already a lot of tech in all of those systems. The drill now is simplify R&R (mostly the replacement part) when self-repair isn't an option.

    But no, we're still driving dinosaurs that aren't much different than a 1930 Hupmobile.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,709
    stever said:

    How many "systems" are we talking about? Six or eight?

    powertrain
    suspension and wheels
    active safety
    lighting and electrical
    steering
    braking

    There's already a lot of tech in all of those systems. The drill now is simplify R&R (mostly the replacement part) when self-repair isn't an option.

    But no, we're still driving dinosaurs that aren't much different than a 1930 Hupmobile.

    Those systems would not translate directly to modules, though. If you're just talking about being able to plug and play, these are no longer the modules. Instead, the module might be the front drive system. Included in this is all of the items you note above, which are located on/in/around the right and left sides of the fender area and under the engine. So, everything in there is sealed off from everything else, bolts to the modules around it, and plugs into the car's circuitry. That's modular construction.

    If the system was designed to last, say, 100,000 miles (since it contains wear items such as brakes and suspension), then when you need brakes, you just disconnect these modules, connect a new one, and off you go. No, pads, no bushings, no struts, no bearings, and no alignments! The used module goes off for reconditioning or recycling, and the driver goes off happy after a fifteen or twenty minute wait.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    well for one thing you'd have to get all the automakers to standardize parts, otherwise you've just put a couple ten thousand repair shops out of business.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Both of y'all are getting it. ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    On another subject:

    "According to the complaint, after a routine audit this year found three incorrect claims, Nissan launched an extensive audit of the store. It found such abnormalities as fictitious owner names on records, labor bills for employees that claimed to have logged between 300 and 400 hours of warranty work a week, and warranty work allegedly performed on vehicles that were not in the state at the time, the court filing says."

    Nissan accuses store owned by ex-dealer council chair of fraud (autonews.com)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Back to the "send it off for rehab" thread, Ford using plasma to refurbish dead engines (Gizmag)

    "Ford wants to [utilize] a high-tech plasma process to remanufacture broken engines.

    PTWA works by basically creating "paint" out of metallic materials. A wire feedstock is first fed into a highly-charged cathode. This atomizes the feedstock, which is then sprayed onto a surface with forced gas. The high kinetic energy of the particles means that they flatten on impact with the surface of the target. They then quickly harden. This has the effect of both depositing even amounts of material onto a surface and of "leveling" the surface by naturally filling in pits and gouges."
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    edited December 2015
    xwesx said:

    How many "systems" are we talking about? Six or eight?

    If the system was designed to last, say, 100,000 miles (since it contains wear items such as brakes and suspension), then when you need brakes, you just disconnect these modules, connect a new one, and off you go. No, pads, no bushings, no struts, no bearings, and no alignments! The used module goes off for reconditioning or recycling, and the driver goes off happy after a fifteen or twenty minute wait.

    And the brake job that used to cost $300, now cost $1300 in parts alone. Exactly how did this work out in the consumers favor?

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    edited December 2015
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't see how customers could be so naive as to think that this $100 fee was in any way a sustainable business model. That's the thing about those of us who drool over technology. We don't sometimes realize that innovation is still driven by either fear (like the moon landing) or money (like Apple). If neither one is present, you can just enjoy your home-made steam car for another 100 years.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, because people are real happy getting a $40 tow to their local dealer, followed by a bill for an $800 brake job because they need pads and fluid.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Aw, too bad. Then don't use the brakes. They wear out.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2015
    Just need to tweak the electromagnetic brakes to stop the car using strong magnets and skip the pads.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Or hit the "perpetual motion" switch?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Always keep an anchor and rope in the car as a backup :p
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My favorite YouTube videos are ones of people chasing after their cars after they slip their parking brakes.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,709
    edited December 2015
    I don't think that 100K on wear items is unobtainium. My brakes always last longer than that with rare exception (such as the rear brakes on my '10 Forester only lasting about 85K.... what's up with that?!), so I think it should be pretty doable to manufacture these systems to last at least that long.

    Not that I really *want* cars to go this route. I'm just saying that Steve's idea is not beyond possibility.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Depends how you drive, the weight of the car, one's tolerance for noise or brake dust, the demands you make on the car. Again, what the manufacturer gives you is a compromise, factoring in reliability, safety requirements, consumer satisfaction, etc.

    What needs to happen with "cars of the future" is standardization. It's ridiculous to have 200 different types of mufflers and 400 different sizes and shape of brake pad.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,709

    What needs to happen with "cars of the future" is standardization. It's ridiculous to have 200 different types of mufflers and 400 different sizes and shape of brake pad.

    BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA! *wipes away a tear*

    That would be incre.... BWHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA......

    *pauses ten minutes to gain composure*

    That would be incredible, Shifty; it really would. Especially if you could still get variety (size/shape/style) and still keep the standardization. Sadly, I think modular architecture is more realistic.

    "Come with me, cats. Yes, yes; everyone this way!"
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342

    My favorite YouTube videos are ones of people chasing after their cars after they slip their parking brakes.

    I did that once with my old Datsun pickup. A pole did the stopping for me.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Seems like I've read plenty of posts by Prius owners bragging about their 100k brake life. Some report 200 to 300k. And hypermilers driving plain old gassers brag the same way (cleanmpg.com)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Probably have the same pair of shoes from high school, too.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,389
    I was amazed that I got over 120k out of the rear pads on my MS3- and the rotors were still good(according to Mazda's specs).

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Manual tranny families get good brake life too! I'm at about 65K on my car and not close to the squealers!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I bought my MINI at 60K and the pads then were half-life, and they are about 2mm at 125K. It's about time. I bet I could make 140K on them. I don't have much use for brakes.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    On Hondas the wear indicators start making noise when the pads get down to 2mm. I wouldn't push it too much farther.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I ordered the parts actually. They're just sittin' there. I don't enjoy working on cars like I used to. Maybe if I had a spacious garage, a fridge full of beer and a lift, I'd be more motivated. I may work out a barter with a neighbor who is a certified mechanic here in town and who moonlights on occasion.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Now, let's figure out how to accomplish that kind of "deferred" maintenance on oil and filters. Seems like the rest of the fluids, save washer fluid, are lifetime.

    For cleaning the windshield, there's likely an ultrasonic gizmo for that. :)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    35 in the dealerships out if the 116 that went through the program. http://www.autonews.com/article/20151206/RETAIL05/312079986/gm-transforms-soldiers-into-service-techs

    Note how this is just enough to get them ready to start the official technician training program. That would put them just about fifteen years from being the technician that the consumer needs. Then you see the 2500 tech per year demand mentioned at the end of the article, and that is just for the GM dealers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Obviously this system is not workable. I can't think of any other industry where the training is so far behind the product. People know how to fix my computer, my washing machine, my teeth, my heart, my eyes---why not my car?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Well the last three have the schooling, apprenticeships, not to mention the financial rewards to attract the people needed to take on those careers. The first two take only a fraction of the training and time to learn, and do you realize the difference in the cost to invest in the tools to do the different jobs?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I'ld like to know how the Vo-Tech instructors can possibly stay ahead of the curve!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Ahead of the curve? The majority have no idea that there even is a curve ahead of them.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    More like a cliff? :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There will be a big shakeout of repair shops and technicians, and after that shake out, those left standing will raise their rates considerably,
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372

    There will be a big shakeout of repair shops and technicians, and after that shake out, those left standing will raise their rates considerably,

    Supply and demand, in action!

    Of course, if the supply of trained tech is short, that sure seems like a career opportunity for those willing to work at it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well if Tesla and BMW are planning to open more "genius stores" to sell their products, then maybe all the automakers better start thinking about bringing in immigrants from countries with a strong intellectual tradition who are eager to work here, like from India for example, or the two Chinas.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    You are starting to get the message, but you still haven't grasped one key detail. The length of time that it takes to master the career. From the time someone graduates from school until he/she has enough hours on the floor to be truly competent is more than a decade. Meanwhile during that decade of trying to get up to speed there will be another decade worth of advancements in the technology that the technician then has to work with. So that means the learning never stops, there is no educational finish line for the technicians. Trying to import warm bodies isn't going to change that, even if they would work for pennies.

    This morning I was listening to Mike and Mike on ESPN and they were talking about the concussion issues surrounding football. One of the key points was that the NFL has to get a grasp on this now or in twenty five years there won't be enough players since there are so many parents steering their kids away from the game. The whole discussion made for a nice analog to the trades problem. When the big shakedown does finally occur, and it will, there won't be enough people qualified to do the work to take advantage of that situation. All you have to do is look and you can see that it is already happening. The scope captures and diagnostic routines that I have posted here on a few occasions should be "common knowledge" stuff, today. That Jeep was a very basic example of what every technician, ten years or more in the trade should be able to handle as easily as they do a brake job, or an oil change.


  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think that's such a good analogy because the money in the NFL is too good. The young men are recruited (lured) by colleges with football scholarships, and with that much money on the line, and in many cases, no other prospects for a decent life, well...the choice is made, not always for the best.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I played with "robot" football as a kid and that'll be next.

    We don't need more techs, we need more modular parts swappers.


  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    edited December 2015
    Since I'm a Luddite apparently :D

    Can the shortage, or impending shortage of qualified car techs be blamed in part on the "cell phone generation" and the fact that nobody seems capable of actually DOING anything remotely physical in nature?

    There are things everyone needs to know how to do without their smartphone to guide them. Change a tire, start a fire, create shelter, etc. You know... all those merit badge things!

    On of my favorite moments is when someone asks me what time it is, I hold this up...



    ...and they say, "But what time is it??"
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