A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

Hmmm. Doesn't anybody have any idea how to use that data? If you click on the blocks at the bottom of that post that opens up the full screen shots of the data captures instead of just the thumb-nails if that helps.

Yeah, I really don't know how to use the data. In addition, I have a hard time seeing the colors on those thin lines, so the whole thing just sort of blurs together for me (even when large). However, the fuel trim percentages seemed really high, but that's not much to go on if you can't figure out why their so high. LOL

Clearly, though, given the complexity of the electrical systems involved, it pays (or maybe doesn't!) to understand how those systems work at least as well as understanding the mechanical systems. And, not just the ones you may *think* are important.

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

The nightmare there is while I chose peaks of data to single out from the factory tool capture, you would have no idea if the values you were seeing with the cheaper tool represented the average values, some peaks, or just an anomaly.

BTW the really tough ones can be dozens of pieces of data and include both engine as well as transmission inputs and outputs.

Nightmare indeed!

On what sort of system does this software run? I assume that it is just operating on a Windows machine (or similar) with an OS and other software present. If this is the case, a video screen capture program such as Fraps or Camtasia might be very nice for capturing short moving segments of the data stream.

Not that this would be of any use to me (or most of us here), but, for other educational purposes, it may prove useful!

thecardoc3

While you could capture the screen that way, you would not be able to open, observe and manipulate the entire data capture. The software that was being used (on a windows 7 machine, it won't run on an 8 or newer) was GM's TIS, the scan tool was of course the GM TechII.

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

While you could capture the screen that way, you would not be able to open, observe and manipulate the entire data capture. The software that was being used (on a windows 7 machine, it won't run on an 8 or newer) was GM's TIS, the scan tool was of course the GM TechII.

No, very true. The observer would only be seeing what the tech wanted to share in that particular view. It would simply allow for moving frames as opposed to the still capture.

thecardoc3

A realtor stopped by the shop today. He wanted to know if I knew of a young tech that wants to become a shop owner. It turns out that one of the other shops in the town across the river is for sale and its owner wants to retire. The owner is willing to stay on for a while to assist in the change over, and the sale includes his tools and equipment as well as the building. Seems it's been on the market for some six months and they have gotten some lowball offers for the building, but nobody wants the business.

One of the more interesting parts of the conversation revealed that he is on the zoning committee for our town. I asked him if someone wanted to open a shop in town, where would it go. The answer is there cannot be any new shops in town because they can only be in the buildings in town that currently are shops. If any of us shut down they have one year to get another shop in the building, or else the town will lose that business forever as most of us are grandfathered in where we are at, but the site loses its exemption if it goes vacant. That's what is going to happen to that shop across the river too.

Mr_Shiftright

So what goes in there, a tattoo parlor? Is it really that posh an address that a repair shop is non grata?

thecardoc3

I told him, by the time they finally sit down and figure out what they have done to the town it will be too late for them to even hope to do anything about it. They will soon be down to one tire shop, one general shop and one dealership, unless that gets sold and shut down which is a real possibility since the owner is in his late 70's.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

So what goes in there, a tattoo parlor? Is it really that posh an address that a repair shop is non grata?

Based on a brief tenure as the local Planning Commission counsel, here's what I expect happened: The zoning was changed to what we called B1- meaning shops or retail establishments(B2 covered automotive repair shops, IIRC). The existing garages are allowed to continue as nonconforming uses- you can't use a zoning change to eliminate an existing business-but once the business closes a new one can't open up unless it gets the zoning changed to a classification that allows it.

Mr_Shiftright

You can't find a metal re-plating facility within 100 miles of San Francisco I'd bet. Pretty soon all the "dirty" industry will be in the boonies. I could certainly see all auto repair facilities being driven out of the San Francisco core. The real estate is too valuable.

isellhondas

Yep, I remember when most towns had chrome plating places along with a couple of radiator shops. Wrecking yards weren't fenced and you walked through oil soaked dirt.

Every gas station had a "Mechanic on Duty" sign and today the repair bays have been turned into mini marts.

Even in the suburbs this is the case now.

thecardoc3

On the bright side there were no injuries reported. http://kimt.com/2016/01/11/fire-at-charlies-auto-repair/

stever

So I guess the question is was the general auto repair shop unqualified to work on an industrial truck? Sounds like those stories of people welding gas tanks without taking proper precautions.

"Investigators believe the explosion was caused by liquid propane gas leaked through the fuel pump of a commercial truck that was being serviced Monday afternoon.

Mechanics had emptied the tank before working on the truck but some of the gas remained, Medlin said." (Globe Gazette)

At least the shop is sticking to the party line about oil changes:

"Oil – Change your oil and oil filter as specified in your manual—more often (every 3,000 miles) if your driving is mostly stop-and-go or consists of frequent short trips"

thecardoc3

stever said:

So I guess the question is was the general auto repair shop unqualified to work on an industrial truck?

You shouldn't guess. Accidents happen, some are caused, and there isn't enough information to judge if they were attempting to work with something that they were really qualified to do or not. Back in my dealer days there was a small fleet that bought conventional trucks from the dealer and had the LPG systems installed on them. Whenever these trucks needed repairs (warranty or otherwise) we still had to work on them. We were fortunate to never have any accidents with those things, but the danger was clearly there. Does the fact that we never had an issue with them suggest whether we were really qualified or not?

stever said:

"Investigators believe the explosion was caused by liquid propane gas leaked through the fuel pump of a commercial truck that was being serviced Monday afternoon.

Mechanics had emptied the tank before working on the truck but some of the gas remained, Medlin said." (Globe Gazette)

Reporters have failed to communicate all of the known information up to this point.

Mr_Shiftright

I read a story once where a guys' car was hit by a meteorite. What I learned from that is sometimes the only cause is just bad luck.

thecardoc3

I'll bet there is a lot more to this story. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/family-claims-exposed-to-carbon-monoxide-after-faulty-suv-repair-1.3395431

Mr_Shiftright

There had better be more to the story. Why would any sane owner even drive this car for another DAY much less months, if a CO detector showed lethal levels? This story makes no sense as reported. And sending his daughter out to warm up the car--that's nice.

thecardoc3

I can tell you a lot about long term CO exposure. http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning.com/article1-co-levels.html

Mr_Shiftright

It's deadly, that's for sure but his claim of 150 ppm is actually not that risky unless he was exposed for quite some duration. Still, not something you want to mess with.

Driving with windows open could actually aggravate his exposure as pressure differentials could suck fumes into the car.

thecardoc3

The first question about this is why was there measurable CO, how much was really being emitted? The second was the claim was that there was an exhaust leak. How is it that nobody was hearing it, or seeing evidence (soot) from it?

BTW did you watch the video? See the TPMS lamp on?

Mr_Shiftright

video wouldn't play for me.

thecardoc3

Its a slow load, probably all of the rest of the stuff polluting the page.

Mr_Shiftright

No, it's dead Jim.

PF_Flyer

Channeling Dr McCoy are we?

xwesx

TPMS light... yep, saw that, and not surprising since the car was strutting winter tires and wheels. I don't put TPMS sensors in my winter wheels, either. It's unnecessary nanny tech.

As for the video, it didn't work for me this morning either. It did work a minute or two ago, though, with a bit of patience on the load.

Hey, the writing was on the wall here. Heck, even the car was practically screaming for them to get away!

toomanyfumes

I don't have TPMS sensors on my winter wheels either. My summer wheels are in the garage near the car. It must pick up those sensors when I leave for work. The light stays off all day, for my 25 mile round trip commute. If I drive any further, the light comes on.

qbrozen

That seems like an odd setup. Mine knows immediately the sensors aren't there in my winter wheels.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

That seems like an odd setup. Mine knows immediately the sensors aren't there in my winter wheels.

It seems like every brand, and perhaps different models, have different diagnostic routines on them. A few years ago, I had new tires installed on my Forester's stock rims at the same time I was going to do my spring change-over, so I just took it into the place I was getting the tires (happened to be the Ford dealership). They mounted them and then swapped the summer package onto the car.

When I was at the counter, the service advisor said they couldn't figure out how to get the TPMS light to turn off. He was trying to look it up online. I advised him that it would turn off within about ten minutes with the car running. He was doubtful, but deferred to my knowledge as the owner and assurance that it really was not a problem. I paid him and drove off; the light turned off a few minutes later.

Mr_Shiftright

My MINI has a little reset button. Very handy.

roadburner

xwesx said:

It seems like every brand, and perhaps different models, have different diagnostic routines on them. A few years ago, I had new tires installed on my Forester's stock rims at the same time I was going to do my spring change-over, so I just took it into the place I was getting the tires (happened to be the Ford dealership). They mounted them and then swapped the summer package onto the car.

When I was at the counter, the service advisor said they couldn't figure out how to get the TPMS light to turn off. He was trying to look it up online. I advised him that it would turn off within about ten minutes with the car running. He was doubtful, but deferred to my knowledge as the owner and assurance that it really was not a problem. I paid him and drove off; the light turned off a few minutes later.

At least your tire shop made an effort to look up the reset procedure; a friend of mine brought me his E83 X3 and told me that the shop he used for an oil change told him that they couldn't reset the oil maintenance lights "because it needs a BMW computer." I reset it in a couple of minutes- no computer is necessary and the procedure is easily found online.

As for the TPMS, my E90 has a reset button, so there's no problem switching to winter tires with TPMS; the Mazda doesn't need a reset at all- just switch tires/wheels/TPMS. While looking at STIs I've read that new TPMS have to be coded to the car. I'd hope not.

xwesx

roadburner said:

While looking at STIs I've read that new TPMS have to be coded to the car. I'd hope not.

My understanding with Subaru is that, yes, new TPMS sensors do need to be coded to the car. I am not sure whether one can have more than four coded at the same time (e.g., two sets of wheels require re-programming each time?). Since I don't use TPMS outside of the stock rims, I have never had to deal with it one way or the other.

I will say, though, that I am pleasantly surprised by how reliable the sensors are. I haven't touched the sensors on the 2010 for any reason, and yet they still work just fine after 6.5 years. Or, the light doesn't come on without cause anyway.

In fact, I've never seen the 2010's light come on for a low pressure situation. I keep my summer tires at 35 front and 40 rear (due to frequently carrying heavy loads) as a baseline. When we did our transcontinental trip, I set the rears to 44, which was the upper limit stamped on those tires, because we had a really solid load on the car for all 12.5K miles of the trip. The only time we had a TPMS light was through Saskatchewan when we were running at about 75 on the Yellowhead in 100-degree heat. When I checked the tire pressure, the rears read upper 40s, so I suspect that the light was saying the pressure was too high.

qbrozen

I have also heard Subaru TPMS has to be programmed. Ridiculous.

qbrozen

I just had a friend call me to ask what he can do because his Pathfinder won't shift out of park and his mechanic is out of the country. I explained to him about the shift lock override switch and how he could use that to get by for now until his mechanic returns. I'll admit, I don't usually read my owners' manuals, but I also have a clue what I'm doing. Most people really should give theirs a read.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

I just had a friend call me to ask what he can do because his Pathfinder won't shift out of park and his mechanic is out of the country. I explained to him about the shift lock override switch and how he could use that to get by for now until his mechanic returns. I'll admit, I don't usually read my owners' manuals, but I also have a clue what I'm doing. Most people really should give theirs a read.

I'll help a friend, but as I've said, I won't answer online queries that can be answered by simply checking the OM...

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

I just had a friend call me to ask what he can do because his Pathfinder won't shift out of park and his mechanic is out of the country. I explained to him about the shift lock override switch and how he could use that to get by for now until his mechanic returns. I'll admit, I don't usually read my owners' manuals, but I also have a clue what I'm doing. Most people really should give theirs a read.

Ask him to check his brake lights and get back to you.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

I just had a friend call me to ask what he can do because his Pathfinder won't shift out of park and his mechanic is out of the country. I explained to him about the shift lock override switch and how he could use that to get by for now until his mechanic returns. I'll admit, I don't usually read my owners' manuals, but I also have a clue what I'm doing. Most people really should give theirs a read.

Ask him to check his brake lights and get back to you.

I did, actually. He is going to wait till tomorrow to do that. I just told him not to drive it till lights are confirmed working.

thecardoc3

There is another way instead of programming the car for another set of sensors and that is to clone the original sensors.

thecardoc3

BMW is changing their free maintenance policy. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160118/RETAIL05/301189955/bmw-trims-free-service-adds-dealer-bonus

thecardoc3

This happened pretty quietly. http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/22/

This should work.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/22/first-gm-ignition-switch-lawsuit-is-dismissed.html

stever

That last link is broken Doc.

Michaell

thecardoc3 said:

BMW is changing their free maintenance policy. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160118/RETAIL05/301189955/bmw-trims-free-service-adds-dealer-bonus

I have to say this makes sense, as most folks lease their BMWs for 3 years.

thecardoc3

Try this one. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-28/how-a-high-flying-lawyer-botched-his-big-case-against-gm

Michaell

thecardoc3 said:

Try this one. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-28/how-a-high-flying-lawyer-botched-his-big-case-against-gm

Having owned a 2006 ION - and which my daughter experienced ignition cut-outs twice in a 4 month period - all I can say is I'm glad no one in my family was hurt from this. But I do feel for the legitimate victims of this issue.

Mr_Shiftright

In pilot training the instructor will kill your power during flight in order to test your ability to perform under duress. I would suggest all driving instructors do the same, when safe to do so. A driver should be able to fully control an ignition shut-off. The faulty GM switch doesn't go to "lock", only to off.

thecardoc3

Agreed Shifty.

Furthermore, in pilot training one is required to learn how the aircraft works, and do maintenance pre-checks (fuel levels, oil level, controls, surface inspections, etc.) before climbing in.

Then after you start the craft you have to perform all of the pre-flight checks ensuring all the switches are set correctly, oil pressure is correct, choke heat is set, mixture full rich, landing light on, throttle up and confirm manifold vacuum in range, charging system voltage correct, fuel gages correct with what you manually inspected before you got into the craft (Plus anything else required in the flight manual). Then and only then are you supposed announce your flight intentions, check for traffic, stage and then take-off. (Note: variations depending on whether you are operating from a controlled airport or not)

If drivers were trained to operate cars the way pilots are trained to operate aircraft, it still wouldn't solve all of the problems but it would solve most of them because pilots are trained to accept that the vast majority of the problems are either caused by the operator, or failed to be prevented by the operator through negligence. There is no whining about oil specs because another brand is ten cents or even ten dollars cheaper. If you want to work on an aircraft you are required to be certified to do so, and while there are some who consider themselves above that, there are significant penalties should fate ever catch up with them.

thecardoc3

BTW. Pilots also undergo periodic safety checks with a certified instructor no matter how long they have been flying, nor how often.

Mr_Shiftright

It's really a shame that a young person has to be injured or lose their life because of the inability to cope with the surprise and fright of having your car suddenly shut off. I would certainly teach my kids how to deal with this, because even a sudden stall would be as challenging as the actual GM defect. Same kind of training would apply to dealing with a blow out or a skid, or even an engine fire (the last one is easy---get out and RUN!).

thecardoc3

Remember Dodge vans and trucks in the 70's and 80's? When one of those stalled it took all of my strength to turn the steering wheel and both feet on the brake pedal to stop because of loss of assist. Today's electronic power steering systems all but turn off when you are at highway speed which improves the road feel everyone seems to appreciate. The recent thread about the Murano being heavy to steer at speed when they were playing with a slalom course was just an example of the reduced assist that occurs at higher speeds.

thecardoc3

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160104/RETAIL05/301049951/1147

stever

Seems like it should be more like two nights a week.

thecardoc3

There are details in the story that should be raising some questions. Why would a tech who was paid to move to Hawaii, work there for only three months and quit? Only one of the fourteen from the first group decided to go onto AYES. Do you know what the graduation rate is? What about the one year, two year and five year retention rates are for the shops?

Automotive technicians have a twenty year growing phase before they really master their craft, but the learning never stops. There is always something that one has never seen before and the only right way to deal with that is an experienced, disciplined approach that consumers have been trained to not support.