A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

stever

There you go blaming consumers for the industry woes again. People want products that don't break down - that comes with the territory, as does demand for lower prices and maintenance free items. It's like that in every industry and someone will always find a way to fill the demand.

Learning never stops in any avocation so that's a throw-away complaint.

If the industry isn't meeting the needs of the public, then the industry needs to change.

thecardoc3

stever said:

There you go blaming consumers for the industry woes again.

Read that again. It says "There is always something that one has never seen before and the only right way to deal with that is an experienced, disciplined approach that consumers have been trained to not support"

Which is what is reflected in this brand new thread.
http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/39307/chevrolet/x/2011-chevy-equinox-2-4l-random-multi-cylinder-misfire-code#latest
That isn't blaming the consumer, but it is about getting you and others to recognize where some of the blame belongs.

stever said:

People want products that don't break down - that comes with the territory, as does demand for lower prices and maintenance free items. It's like that in every industry and someone will always find a way to fill the demand.

Learning never stops in any avocation so that's a throw-away complaint.

If the industry isn't meeting the needs of the public, then the industry needs to change.

Which amounts to the beatings will continue until morale improves.
Oh well, the industry trade is changing but don't expect things to start getting better until the career starts to become one that is worth someone new coming into.

Mr_Shiftright

That depends on the car owner and the type of car he drives. You will find excellent support for technicians who specialize in one marque only and who are independents. This suggests, but does not prove, that dealerships and shoddy chain store operations are as much to blame, if not more so, for consumer mistrust.

stever

I don't need or want to be trained - I want to get in and go so I can consume other stuff (and never have to stop at a dealership or Jiffy Lube so dirty carcinogenic fluids can be drained and put in the waste stream).

The Tesla Model 3 is sounding better and better, as is the Bolt.

For the Model S, Tesla won't even void your warranty if you never bring it in for the recommended annual inspection.

thecardoc3

stever said:

I don't need or want to be trained - I want to get in and go so I can consume other stuff (and never have to stop at a dealership or Jiffy Lube so dirty carcinogenic fluids can be drained and put in the waste stream).

The Tesla Model 3 is sounding better and better, as is the Bolt.

So you are overlooking the fact that there is little to no resale value for these cars? That means if you buy the extended warranty (a guaranteed $4000 expense) on top of the purchase price you have a car that is worth basically nothing when it will be eight years old, regardless of the mileage. But you have been trained to do that whether you wanted to be trained or not.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100602_life-with-tesla-model-s-extended-warranty-tricky-owners-more-updates

stever said:

For the Model S, Tesla won't even void your warranty if you never bring it in for the recommended annual inspection.

Why should they? Their aim is to get you to just buy another one, or something else anyway. So as long as you are not used to service and repair, you should be happy spending several thousand per year on new ones eventually. They want to scrap and recycle that car after one user. It's to their advantage for it to have no value when you are done with it.

stever

I'm driving a miled up '09 minivan right now that's not worth anything. Cars are depreciating assets, so there's nothing new about lousy resale values. That's not really in my equations anyway since I drive them forever. And the Model 3 and Bolt with be mostly affordable, unlike the Model S discussed in your link.

>>Their aim is to get you to just buy another one, or something else anyway. So as long as you are not used to service and repair, you should be happy spending several thousand per year on new ones eventually.

You're describing leasing now.

And why do people lease? To get something new and shiny every three years with no repair bills and hopefully few visits to the shop.

thecardoc3

Follow the links from that report to his other stories. Like this one. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099608_tesla-letter-to-rein-in-local-supercharger-use-goes-wrong

stever

I'll see your supercharger free usage issue and raise you a zillion stabilitrak issues with multiple expensive "solutions".

Mr_Shiftright

Steve, driving a Bolt in your winter is going to be like driving a Chevy Cruze with a 4 gallon gas tank. And that's a mighty expensive short range grocery-getter.

stever

It's still winter?

Mr_Shiftright

Don't get so cocky--this is exactly what Scott of the Antarctic said the day before you know what....

thecardoc3

stever said:

I'll see your supercharger free usage issue and raise you a zillion stabilitrak issues with multiple expensive "solutions".

Free supercharger, when you spend $100,000 to rent a disposable battery on wheels for eight years. The best part is it will only cost you $120,000 in rent to do it again eight years later and maybe that super charger will still be free.

Mr_Shiftright

Once everyone has solar panels, the government will install clouds over your house.

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

there are some who consider themselves above that, there are significant penalties should fate ever catch up with them.

Such as almost-guaranteed death in the event that something goes wrong? Yep, that'll catch up with you, all right!

Mr_Shiftright

Doc, you haven't lived unless you've spent 10 minutes with Bill from Powerstroke Specialties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6h3ax38NYk

thecardoc3

He's right about some things, and it seems he's one of the problems that the trade has. By his own admission he's been through seventy-five techs to find the five that he has right now. That has serious potential to earn him the moniker of ESO. The idea that nobody else is capable of working on those trucks is totally wrong. I know a number of techs all across the country that I would recommend in a heartbeat. Beyond his video's and website that I just looked at I know nothing else about him. He isn't even a member of the iATN.

thecardoc3

Well nobody asked what an ESO is yet , and aren't you curious why being one is bad for the consumer? ESO is "Evil Shop Owner" who on one hand presents a picture that portraits to be everything(?) a consumer is looking for when they have a broken car. On the other hand an ESO isn't putting enough back into the trade and it's future. Now some may point to his training video's as trying to do something positive and I agree. Any training is better than no training, but there is nothing earthshaking in his video's that wasn't figured out by someone else and available from other sources. He only made a few video's out of some of the information. There is much more that anyone needs to know before they would be competent working on even just this one segment of vehicles.

Lot's of people think that they know enough that they could be good techs, and given time to gain experience and continual training both in the classroom and through personal study they are more likely to be right than wrong. But if just about anyone who spends time on these forums, and I do mean anyone were to take their knowledge and experience and try to work for a typical ESO, they would find themselves back out on the street before they could blink. An ESO has no room for anyone who isn't perfect and never makes any mistakes. Consumers demand that same precision and some will mock and attack even this post as some kind of an excuse. Meanwhile when they do so they are simply ignoring the fact that they can't live up to that demand either, nobody can.

Not all that long ago there were business management guru's running around and telling shop owners that the secret to success was to cut every cost while maximizing every possible profit. The end goal also included getting to be an absentee owner. There are some people, possibly ex-techs who have done very well for themselves with that approach, at the consumer's, as well as the trade's expense.

Mr_Shiftright

It's interesting that you interpret what this guy is doing differently than I do.

Maybe I'm off base, but my impression of him and what he is trying to accomplish is to build himself a specialty shop, not a general repair shop. He has selected the best techs he could find that, indeed, fit into his philosophy of what his shop is all about----specializing in a) the Ford powerstroke diesel, and b) not just fixing them to stock configuration, but in turning a basically fault-ridden 100,000 mile motor into a very reliable 300,000++ mile motor.

You have to admit that because people ship trucks to him for repair from all over the country, he may be more than a good BS artist.

I've watched many of his videos. He does things right IMO.

Specialty shops are a different animal than general repair shops. To work in them you don't only need an expertise but also the right mindset.

I have friends who are Porsche specialists. It's hard for them to find the techs that "fit" their shop. One of the shops has had the very best luck with European trained technicians. He believes they have more discipline and maturity, and are better with customers.

I'm sure Mr. Powerstroke is dictatorial but often that's what it takes if you are pursuing excellence. Vince Lombardi wasn't the easiest guy to get along with but his team respected him. AND he got results.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's interesting that you interpret what this guy is doing differently than I do.

Two simple questions. Would I want to work for him. Would I want him to work for me, or run my shop.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'm sure Mr. Powerstroke is dictatorial but often that's what it takes if you are pursuing excellence. Vince Lombardi wasn't the easiest guy to get along with but his team respected him. AND he got results.

Funny you should mention Lombardi. Let's try this quote and see how Bill matches up. "While Lombardi was known to be volatile and terse with players during practices and games, he insisted on unconditional respect for everyone in his organization."

Mr_Shiftright

I don't really know enough about this guy Bill Hewitt, to comment on that, other than to say that he seems to recognize problems within the auto repair business. Perhaps this shop of his and how he runs it is the only way he can control the things he sees as being counterproductive to the industry.

If nothing else, he seems to respect the concept of doing one's work well. His videos show the work being done well, no shortcuts, and he has come up with some interesting bits of engineering.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's interesting that you interpret what this guy is doing differently than I do.

Specialty shops are a different animal than general repair shops. To work in them you don't only need an expertise but also the right mindset.

I have friends who are Porsche specialists. It's hard for them to find the techs that "fit" their shop. One of the shops has had the very best luck with European trained technicians. He believes they have more discipline and maturity, and are better with customers.

I use an indie shop for some work on my BMWs; while BMWs are their bread and butter, they take in the occasional M-B as well as Ferraris and Lambos. I could never see a time when I would take a BMW, M-B, or Porsche to a shop that didn't specialize in that particular marque- or at least work on them on a somewhat regular basis.

thecardoc3

Tesla is really trying to change things. http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/a-customer-was-so-annoying-that-tesla-decided-not-to-sell-him-a-car/ar-BBp2gSK?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=DELLDHP and https://medium.com/@salsop/banned-by-tesla-8d1f3249b9fb#.escu09j9f

Mr_Shiftright

@ roadburner -- I couldn't agree more. Whenever I see a "German Motors" sign, I have to wonder if they could possibly be competent in all 5 major German brands. I rather doubt it. Audi and VW tend to cross-pollinate, so I could see that as a dual specialty. I also know of a Porsche-Audi shop that does well--but they have specialists who address each brand separately (except for simple maintenance, of course).

@thecardoc3 --- well kudos to Tesla for swatting that gadfly, but I hope Tesla does get so arrogant that it fails to see that, as we speak, the Germans are moving a 100-ton slab of concrete over the Tesla factory, held by a thin and fraying cable.

explorerx4

I was interviewed for a job in his uncle's office.
His father and uncle were both in the OSS.
Just some weird facts.

thecardoc3

It was just a matter of time. http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160203/9-charged-with-circumventing-smog-check-program Watch for more of these cases which are going to go well beyond cheating smog check stations. Tampering with emissions controls is a Federal offense under the Clean Air Act.

Mr_Shiftright

I rather doubt that any individual has ever been prosecuted for tampering---repair shops, sure, but your neighbors and mine get away with it all the time.

thecardoc3

Since it takes two to cheat like this, a consumer looking to pass illegally and someone working in a shop willing to do it for them don't be surprised when people start getting notices. They do know which cars have been issued certifications when they should have failed.

Mr_Shiftright

Sometimes the emissions laws approach the absurd. On my Mini Cooper for instance, the "California" catalytic converter and the "49-state" catalytic are the SAME part with a different number. The CA one costs $1800, and the 49 state one costs $400. What is the point of that? More to the point, think how that encourages abuse.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Sometimes the emissions laws approach the absurd. On my Mini Cooper for instance, the "California" catalytic converter and the "49-state" catalytic are the SAME part with a different number.

That's a myth, they are not the same part. On top of that the catalysts have completely different warranty requirements by law. The CARB approved catalyst has a five year warranty. The "OBD II" 49 state (which isn't accurate since more states require California Emissions now) catalyst only has to have a one year warranty.

Mr_Shiftright

So the stamping on the outside make them $1400 "different"? I am not amused.

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Sometimes the emissions laws approach the absurd. On my Mini Cooper for instance, the "California" catalytic converter and the "49-state" catalytic are the SAME part with a different number.

That's a myth, they are not the same part. On top of that the catalysts have completely different warranty requirements by law. The CARB approved catalyst has a five year warranty. The "OBD II" 49 state (which isn't accurate since more states require California Emissions now) catalyst only has to have a one year warranty.

I guess you mean as a replacement part, because, per the EPA, the vehicle manufacturer has to cover the cat for 8 years/80k miles.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, this would be a replacement part after the Fed warranty has run out at 80K. So it would cost the Mini owner in California $1760 parts and labor. It is not uncommon for the cat to fall apart internally.

thecardoc3

Do you know what Mode $06 is?

Mr_Shiftright

Yes. It's of good use to you but not to ordinary owner-drones like me. I'd have no reason to gear up for it

thecardoc3

I can tell if someone has used the correct catalyst on a car just by the Mode$06 data. The OBDII cats are not the same as the CARB approved. The CARB approved fall short of the actual O.E. but only slightly. Many of the OBDII (49 state) catalysts barely pass if they pass the onboard test at all when they are one year old. Meanwhile provided that it hasn't been poisoned,(wrong engine oil) or there hasn't been a misfire the CARB catalyst easily passes the oxygen storage test well beyond its five year warranty requirement. The actual O.E. catalyst warranted for eight years, 80,000 miles should make it twelve years and 150K miles. Cars that are ULEV, SULEV, PZEV require the O.E. catalyst to be warranted for 15 years and 150K miles. Those catalysts have the potential to last the lifetime of the car. If someone replaces one of those with a 49 state version, the MIL will be back on in a few days. The 49 state catalyst is not only too small physically, the substrate wash coat is inferior and there is only a fraction of the platinum, palladium, rhodium, cerium and selenium that is required to do the job correctly in it.

The catalysts are NOT the same between CARB approved and non approved.

Mr_Shiftright

Well on paper you may be right but I can assure you that a 49 state catalyst will easily pass California emissions. I have seen it tested in real time for experimental purposes. Of course, this was only on one car one time.

The converters may not be the same but they do the same thing apparently, for the moment in time that it counts.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well on paper you may be right but I can assure you that a 49 state catalyst will easily pass California emissions.

And turn right around and fail the onboard test, not to mention that if the TAG number of the catalyst isn't on the approved list it should fail as a tampered vehicle.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I have seen it tested in real time for experimental purposes. Of course, this was only on one car one time.

The converters may not be the same but they do the same thing apparently, for the moment in time that it counts.

Let's look at one manufacturer and see what we find inside just their line. Eastern Catalytic's ECO III line alone shows how the manufacturer can modify the wash coat in order to make a given catalyst perform differently. Spend some time there, read everything including the physical catalyst brick size.

http://www.easterncatalytic.com/products/eco-series/

If that doesn't work for you to see that you are touting a myth, I can follow up with some SAE whitepaper links.

Mr_Shiftright

It didn't fail the onboard test though.

I suppose if some hyper-critical Sherlock Holmes wanted to disassemble the exhaust systems of every car he smogs, he could read the numbers and bust someone, yeah, sure. Congratulations, here's your vigilante medal.

But if he's content with affirming that the car is meeting emissions standards, then he's done his job as far as I'm concerned and the part has met the purpose for which it was intended.

One could also charge the police with measuring people's headlight alignment, or the decibel level of their motorbikes, but now really.......

thecardoc3

http://smogcheck.ca.gov/enforcement/index.html

Mr_Shiftright said:

It didn't fail the onboard test though.

I suppose if some hyper-critical Sherlock Holmes wanted to disassemble the exhaust systems of every car he smogs, he could read the numbers and bust someone, yeah, sure. Congratulations, here's your vigilante medal.

Not looking for the CARB numbers is the exact kind of thing that will get a tech and shop cited. See the above link.

Mr_Shiftright said:

But if he's content with affirming that the car is meeting emissions standards, then he's done his job as far as I'm concerned and the part has met the purpose for which it was intended.

Did you write the law?

Mr_Shiftright said:

One could also charge the police with measuring people's headlight alignment, or the decibel level of their motorbikes, but now really.......

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=sae+catalyst+efficiency

http://topics.sae.org/catalytic-converters/papers/
http://papers.sae.org/2009-01-1069/
http://papers.sae.org/2000-01-0183/

Plenty more where those came from.

thecardoc3

Should include this one. If a tech fails to check the catalyst ID tag and passes a vehicle, which the subsequently fails the next time around, that will have an impact on his/her STAR score.
https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Q&As_STAR_Program.html

Mr_Shiftright

Well you are looking from the prospective a shop owner, so I fully understand your position. Of course a shop owner can't install the non-CARB approved part. Common sense and I wouldn't expect otherwise.

I, however, am looking from the prospective of a private individual. It would be interesting to see what you might do when fixing your own car in your own garage--if you'd spend the additional $700--$800 for the right numbers on the same part, especially when there's no consequence to the environment or the car. I suspect you'd think twice.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well you are looking from the prospective a shop owner, so I fully understand your position. Of course a shop owner can't install the non-CARB approved part. Common sense and I wouldn't expect otherwise.

Yet there is no shortage of pressure to try and get techs to not do the job right.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I, however, am looking from the prospective of a private individual. It would be interesting to see what you might do when fixing your own car in your own garage--if you'd spend the additional $700--$800 for the right numbers on the same part, especially when there's no consequence to the environment or the car. I suspect you'd think twice.

When my daughters Rav4 needed the catalyst replaced (200K miles) a couple months ago I had no problem with sourcing and installing the CARB approved replacement. She is planning on getting another ten years or so out of that car.

roadburner

I'm so thankful I live where there is zero, zip, nada emissions testing.

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure, for $289 bucks + shipping I would buy the CARB approved catalytic, too---but we're talking 5X that price for poor fools like me.

Mr_Shiftright

Some parts of California don't require smog checks every two years. It's the dense urban areas. The Central Valley is really bad for pollution.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well sure, for $289 bucks + shipping I would buy the CARB approved catalytic, too---but we're talking 5X that price for poor fools like me.

Rule #1. Learn to live within your means.

Mr_Shiftright

Unfortunately, Mini doesn't put a list of their parts prices on the window sticker. You only find out later that it costs just as much as a Porsche to maintain.

Besides, it's not that I can't afford it, it's because I refuse to pay it.

stever

TCO numbers for the MINI are, er, interesting.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Unfortunately, Mini doesn't put a list of their parts prices on the window sticker. You only find out later that it costs just as much as a Porsche to maintain.

You should see what it costs for a shop/tech if they choose to support fully servicing them.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Besides, it's not that I can't afford it, it's because I refuse to pay it.

That's a fair and accurate statement and is true for most of the consumer complaints that are ever voiced. The problem is when people blame shops/techs for the costs that are incurred that are completely out of their control.
I bought my daughter the RAV because we can afford to service it correctly and make it last for some twenty years+ and it could easily see half a million miles in that time. The cost to do that is a quarter of what it would cost to keep replacing the vehicles.
My Escape will be over 150K mark early in March, don't be surprised when ten to fifteen years from now unless something bad happens that I'll get to add a digit to that.

roadburner

People get on the monthly lease/loan payment treadmill and never get off. They have to pay for one repair that's a bit on the pricey side and immediately flip that car for something more expensive under the pretext that it is saving them money.We've had our X3 since December 2005 and paid it off in January 2007. If we had kept making car payments from that point to today we would have spent a lot more money than we have spent maintaining the X3 properly- ditto for the 3er and Wrangler.