Unfortunately, Mini doesn't put a list of their parts prices on the window sticker. You only find out later that it costs just as much as a Porsche to maintain.
You should see what it costs for a shop/tech if they choose to support fully servicing them.
Besides, it's not that I can't afford it, it's because I refuse to pay it.
That's a fair and accurate statement and is true for most of the consumer complaints that are ever voiced. The problem is when people blame shops/techs for the costs that are incurred that are completely out of their control. I bought my daughter the RAV because we can afford to service it correctly and make it last for some twenty years+ and it could easily see half a million miles in that time. The cost to do that is a quarter of what it would cost to keep replacing the vehicles. My Escape will be over 150K mark early in March, don't be surprised when ten to fifteen years from now unless something bad happens that I'll get to add a digit to that.
LOL! I'm not blaming the shops. They're the ones who usually get me out of jams, not into them.
LOL! I'm not blaming the shops. They're the ones who usually get me out of jams, not into them.
There has been so much effort through the years put into convincing vehicle owners that shops and techs are anything but what you wrote there, one could argue that consumers have been institutionalized into believing that having a car repaired is a terrible thing. It should be noted that the people who are largely responsible for grooming that perception are those who earn their livings, manufacturing, selling, and buying cars. They BTW have been assisted in their effort to push that agenda by media types who had a vested interest in gaining the advertising dollars from those sources which explains why there has never been significant fallout between them when someone decided that they had to go all "Don Quixote" on shops and techs.
My present tooling level would see me be able to handle 100% of the mechanical demands on your Mini, and somewhere in the 70%-80% of the computer, and especially software oriented issues that the dealer can. It would cost me well over $20K to close that gap, which BTW would have the benefit of also granting me the same capability with BMW. The cost to renew each year after the initial investment would then run some $7K a year. The real problem is there would never be enough of them for me to justify that additional expense if I chose to open the shop back up full time.
There are really two separate problems between car owners and the people who work on them, in my opinion.
There's the warranty work, and then there is the repair work.
The problems that arise from warranty work are more often than not, more the creation of the car manufacturer and the dealership owner than the dealer's technicians.
The problems that arise from repair work, either at the dealership or at an independent shop are more often than not, the product of poor communication on the part of the shop and unrealistic expectations on the part of the car owner. And of course, there is that certain percentage that we chalk up to greed, incompetence, or both.
The auto repair business is evolving rapidly and the only bright future I see for anyone who enjoys life as an auto technician is to specialize.
To draw a crude parallel, the GP in the medical field makes the least money and is the least content, whilst the medical specialists seem to fare a good deal better.
Doc, someone posted a problem wherein a fuse blows consistently at 4500 rpm and stops the car. He replaces the fuse and he's off on his merry way until he hits 4500 rpm again. Could this be an overcharging problem or only related to that one circuit? It's a 10 amp fuse on an old Saturn.
To get started its going to take a little more information. Year, model, engine, and transmission and then specifically which fuse number is failing, and in which fuse block is it located. Then, I'd want to know if is it truly RPM related, such as if the car is in neutral/park and you rev it will it blow the fuse or does it have to be in gear and accelerating? Does it make a difference if it is in first gear at that engine speed, or will it do it in second gear or higher? Will it do it every time he hits 4500rpm? Most of the time, or just some of the time? Does it have to be floored and hit that engine speed, or what would happen if it was manually shifted into low gear and gradually brought up to that engine speed?
The picture that I would need them to paint for me is exactly what is going on when the symptom generally occurs. I want to rule in, or rule out if engine torque/vibration is a factor which would tend to indicate if a wiring harness abrasion is plausible or not.
I would advise against any speculation of a potential charging system issue or similar possible cause until testing provided data that would guide someone in that direction. To answer the question as asked however it would seem unlikely, very unlikely.
agree more info is needed and it is unlikely a charging system thing. Just thinking out loud, though, does this particular Saturn (whatever that may be) have a variable cam that switches over at 4500?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well on paper you may be right but I can assure you that a 49 state catalyst will easily pass California emissions. I have seen it tested in real time for experimental purposes. Of course, this was only on one car one time.
The converters may not be the same but they do the same thing apparently, for the moment in time that it counts.
In case you did want to investigate this a little further, here is an overview and link to purchase of an SAE white paper that describes the difference in the performance of the catalysts.
Thanks for that post. Judging by observed testing performance, even though the CARB catalyst outperformed the Federal ones, in relative percentage terms, obviously that % didn't amount to much of a difference, as the Federal one passed the CA test procedure.
As to this quote in the paper:
"Original equipment (OE) catalytic converters are designed to last the life of properly tuned and maintained vehicles. "
All I can say for Mini owners is: DON'T WE WISH
Thanks for the thoughts on the fuse popping at 4500 rpm. I will convey these questions to the owner because I'm very curious about this problem. It's one of those weird car events that is intriguing to solve.
"John Creager, service and parts director at Hall Motor Co. in Lakeview, Ore., estimates the average mechanic enters the industry with less than 20 percent of the required knowledge"
I'd say that was about average (or better) that most any industry, except perhaps for physicians who typically have three years of clinical residency.
That Wyotech place was a diploma place - the feds were shutting the parent company down last year when they filed banko and completely shut down all their "campuses".
Do you want your kid to do hard physical labor for $14 an hour or code for $14?
The second comment has this gem: "Most shops still pay based on the flat rate system which should be illegal."
I'm looking forward to the class action suits by owners of cars under warranty who can't get their cars fixed timely at the dealer due to lack of techs.
"John Creager, service and parts director at Hall Motor Co. in Lakeview, Ore., estimates the average mechanic enters the industry with less than 20 percent of the required knowledge"
I'd say that was about average (or better) that most any industry, except perhaps for physicians who typically have three years of clinical residency.
Isn't it something how they say they have trained techs to the consumers, and say the complete opposite to each other? BTW, last time I checked 1% and less are below 20%, just saying.
That Wyotech place was a diploma place - the feds were shutting the parent company down last year when they filed banko and completely shut down all their "campuses".
The one statement where the dealer hired the top grad from the college, only to have him quit after one week is something that should be examined very closely. There isn't a single cause for that, and its not an isolated case.
Do you want your kid to do hard physical labor for $14 an hour or code for $14?
Ask that question to people who are in the trade, except don't put the dollar value there, use their shop, or a competitors shop. I.E. 'Would you want your son or daughter to become a technician and work in your shop, or a competitors shop?" Most will answer that with a single two letter word.
The second comment has this gem: "Most shops still pay based on the flat rate system which should be illegal."
I'm looking forward to the class action suits by owners of cars under warranty who can't get their cars fixed timely at the dealer due to lack of techs.
With all of the expose' articles that have ever been written about that pay plan you would think that consumer pressure would have made it be ancient history. Oh, wait, have there ever been any accurate articles written about what working under that pay plan is really like and how that has impacted the consumers experience? Hmmm, doesn't look like it. There are articles that paint some aspects of it as a rip-off for the consumer when a tech short-cuts a job, (successfully as well as unsuccessfully) but none that examine what it has really done for the quality of the workforce.
Hah! 20 percent of the required knowledge? That's more than most soldiers get in training before they go to war. Consider yourself lucky as a mechanic, because you can learn from your mistakes generally without dire consequence.
The quote was "less than" 20%. Let's scale this. The average "expert" that hasn't been working full time in a shop for the last ten years knows less than 1%, no matter what they accomplish, nor how well they write about their weekend escapades in the garage.
You mean 1% of everything or 1% of what he writes about? Or is it 1% about everything about cars? You might know 90% of mechanical things and 1% about prewar French cars.
I disagree. That was just another failure that without experience, training, the right tools and the ability to apply critical thinking skills would see someone fail to solve it in an effective manor. How many people who visit these boards would deal with that the first and only time they deal with that problem as easily as most people tie their shoes? That's what knowing 20% looks like. JMHO.
Problem solving is a matter of dogged persistence. You don't HAVE TO "know everything". You can operate perfectly well knowing 20% of something---you just have to know where to look for the other 80%.
Problem solving is a matter of dogged persistence. You don't HAVE TO "know everything". You can operate perfectly well knowing 20% of something---you just have to know where to look for the other 80%.
Agreed. I'd also add that someone can know considerably more than 20% about a specific car and/or marque. And, as you said, you are golden if you know where to find the information that you don't know. I don't plan to troubleshoot Saturns, Camrys, Rangers, Windstalls, etc., I just need to know about my Wrangler and my BMWs
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Problem solving is a matter of dogged persistence. You don't HAVE TO "know everything". You can operate perfectly well knowing 20% of something---you just have to know where to look for the other 80%.
Use all the dogged persistence you want. You get paid .3 hours. If you can't be productive at that rate they will find someone else.
Good luck changing the tide. Cheaping out on car repair has been going on for decades and is visible in just about every thread here in these forums. Just look at the attitudes towards having to pay diagnostic fees. At $100, for an hour most shops make more money changing a set of brakes, and a set of brakes don't take an hour. Brakes don't take the experience, nor the training and especially the tooling. There was a time when the really easy work subsidized the more difficult work and now even that has been taken from the techs all in the name of trying to have lower prices for the consumer.
The Rendezvous question makes for a nice example. The idea that anyone should just try and Google for "the answer" even if it happens to work this time serves to perpetuate the underlying problem. Being "service ready" means you have to be able to figure out how to approach failures that you have never seen before, and it doesn't mean jump onto someone else's coat tail to see you through this event. Getting to solve that problem because you read that someone else already did by replacing one part or another doesn't make one competent. That only makes them a part replacer when someone else pointed at the part. That cheapens the whole process as well as the technicians education. The person tasked with solving that issue needs to apply critical thinking skills and figure out what they can do with their tooling that can give them the most information in the least amount of time. Diagnostics is a process that demands discipline, and yet that is exactly what is being discouraged to be practiced when the idea of "just go look it up" is utilized.
Here is what that poster needs to do for the first step of the analysis of his vehicle problem. You won't find this in a book. Nobody has ever taught to do this.
Which fuse are you pulling to shut this down? How accurate is your voltmeter? The reason I ask that is the first step of this is to prove if you are opening the circuit that is using false power, or the one that is creating the false power to keep the car running.
First identify which fuse block terminal is the one that feeds power to the fuse key on engine off. (KOEO) With the problem occurring you need to measure across the fuse contacts with your volt meter's lowest setting. You will get a very small voltage, something on the order of 4.0mv ( .0040) or less in most cases. What is important for this first step is the polarity of the voltage in relationship to which connection for the fuse gets normal system power. Put the positive lead of your meter to the connection that should have power and the negative lead to the one that the fuse protects. Now is your meter reading a positive voltage, or a negative voltage?
A positive voltage means that power is being input to that fuse from another circuit that shares the same output from the ignition switch. A negative voltage indicates that the problem is being created by a failure on that protected circuit. This starts to narrow down which circuits need to be tested further and which ones don't.
Good luck changing the tide. Cheaping out on car repair has been going on for decades and is visible in just about every thread here in these forums. Just look at the attitudes towards having to pay diagnostic fees. At $100, for an hour most shops make more money changing a set of brakes, and a set of brakes don't take an hour. Brakes don't take the experience, nor the training and especially the tooling. There was a time when the really easy work subsidized the more difficult work and now even that has been taken from the techs all in the name of trying to have lower prices for the consumer.
Well that's still self-correcting. If you don't want to pay to have the vehicle properly diagnosed, you can waste 5X that amount throwing parts at it in "The Guessing Game".
On the other hand, charging a good and regular customer to just tell them what the CEL means is outrageous. It must take all of 3 minutes to plug in a scanner and say "P0456. No biggie...you can take the kids to school and come back next week and we'll look into it".
>Being "service ready" means you have to be able to figure out how to approach failures that you have never seen before, and it doesn't mean jump onto someone else's coat tail to see you through this event.
I don't understand why you wouldn't tag onto someone's coattails. That's what dealer techs do - there's a non-stop flow of information about issues and how people have figured out ways to fix the issues. Some of those tech notes wind up being TSBs. Seems kind of negligent not to see if a similar problem has a fix, especially if it's something the tech hasn't seen before. Wouldn't that be part of the diagnostic process?
For the indy shops, Alldata is full of tech tips that mechanics send in.
The indy shops I know constantly exchange information with dealership techs. For one thing, the dealer techs don't know much about the older models that the indies often service. The indies on the other hand, might be a step behind on brand new models.
Also, the indy shops that specialize in different makes often do referrals back and forth, and if they are close enough, freely exchange tools or literature. Naturally, this doesn't occur among strangers.
I must live in a different automotive world than Doc--maybe in his part of the country the most highly skilled techs get punished, cheated and harrassed, but here they are generally rewarded. Our best local shop (general auto repair) requires 3 WEEKS booking in advance. My friend's Porsche/Audi shop is overflowing with business. He's just rented an entire shop strictly for engine building. My other friend ran a very successful (although stressful) Mitsubishi dealership---MITSUBISHI!!---and built a great reputation for himself. He sold out, but the dealership is still doing well, having expanded to a large used car operation to support the new car operation (which, as you can imagine, is not booming). Another guy I know became a Subaru specialist, and did well enough to buy his building. My friend Dave runs a local muffler shop and has branched out into welding specialties for RVs, towing, 4X4, etc. as well as general auto repair. He's smart enough not to attempt repairs on some cars but he can handle quite a few things on most vehicles.
There are always exceptions. I read your last example "Dave" and see him placing limits which is great business wise but where would that leave the Rendezvous guy if he wanted to go to "Dave"?
As far as only being able to rely on TSB's or answers from another source do we have to link GM's Stabilitrak complaints here? Or any of the other threads and posts that describe multiple visits, and parts replaced that failed to fix a given vehicle no matter how many times it was the answer on others? Tossing parts like that is where tagging someone else's coat tails leads. Expecting someone to do that discourages the tech from being disciplined and finding their own way.
All of your "successful shop" examples are nice but how many stories would be told if we talked to the employee's both present and past that worked to build someone else's dream?
Techs are being punished, cheated and harassed all of the time, all across the country and it needs to be brought out into the open in order to change things. Everyone notices the results, especially when it leads to force the techs to oversell in order to try and turn enough hours that they don't lose their jobs. Which of course when someone finally does complain and/or catch them it costs them their job anyway only to have someone new step into the same trap.
If you are a "past" employee in my friends' shops, you probably didn't help built the dream---or if you did, you were treated well.
I don't know how people like Dave work with difficult problems. He's very smart, so I guess he does his best. I know he wouldn't charge if he failed. I suspect he picks and chooses, and is probably too generous with his time. Given what I see in his shop, I think he knows his strengths and weaknesses.
I don't understand why you wouldn't tag onto someone's coattails. That's what dealer techs do
Actually that's what some do the majority of the time if they lack the skill and training to do otherwise. There are some fine dealer techs in spite of how poorly the trade is managed. I've quoted a couple of them here over the years.
- there's a non-stop flow of information about issues and how people have figured out ways to fix the issues.
But that doesn't teach someone how to create and perform a diagnostic routine. That information primarily comes from people who do know how to analyze a situation and troubleshoot the system. Only rarely does it come from someone who SAWGGED correctly and that ends up being unreliable information most of the time.
Some of those tech notes wind up being TSBs. Seems kind of negligent not to see if a similar problem has a fix, especially if it's something the tech hasn't seen before. Wouldn't that be part of the diagnostic process?
I'll say yes, only in that it can be "PART" of the process, but not "THE" process which is where your perspective leads to.
For the indy shops, Alldata is full of tech tips that mechanics send in.
I have Alldata, Mitchell, Motologic, and access to multiple O.E. websites so that I get access to not only field fixes, but PI's, TSB's and a lot more. None of that replaces fundamental skills and training. It should be used as a supplement not as a substitute. But that's part of "the cheaping out" that is so wide-spread. Back in the 80's companies tried to start marketing machines that they claimed would tell you what was wrong with a car and part of their sales pitch was "That way you can save money on needing to hire and train experienced technicians to diagnose the cars. " All you are pushing for with the quick fix, or "silver bullet" mentality is just another way to try and make the labor cheaper, and you'll pat yourself on the back the one time it works and jump to blame someone else any time that it doesn't. I have had to deal with that lack of understanding for just what the work demands since the late 70's and its way past time that everyone needs to get up to speed, or at least get the heck out of the way.
BTW, the polarity of the voltage drop across the fuse thing. I have never seen that discussed nor mentioned before. Electricity has been around a long time and understanding voltage drop in a circuit is a requirement for any electrical/electronics technician. We even use voltage drop across the fuse for parasitic drain testing to identify the circuit that has the draw, but that exact use that I posted this morning came out of the blue, right at the moment that I was thinking about that particular vehicle problem. I posted it as a technician training aid right after I wrote it here and it has created quite a stir among the educators that frequent the forum I posted it on.
I thought it was quite clever, given the nature of the problem (for those not in the loop, it's a car that doesn't shut down after you remove the key--the suspicion being offered by my hapless, ignorant, unknowing self, that the ignition key is being fed a phantom current from somewhere).
Soooo, Doc's idea of checking the polarity of the current at the fuse pulled by the owner to stop the car was----a clever idea I thought--even though I didn't think of that part.
I had the notion that perhaps voltage was bleeding through a diode in the alternator. Hey, why not?
>I'll say yes, only in that it can be "PART" of the process, but not "THE" process
Searching for a similar problem, especially if it's new to me, would be way high up in my diagnostic flowchart.
You kind of make it sound like you reinvent the wheel every time someone pulls into the shop. I have this image of you pulling out your code reader to check the TPMS light (and charging someone shop time) when a casual glance at the tires will give you ample visual indication that one of them is flat.
I have this image of you pulling out your code reader to check the TPMS light (and charging someone shop time) when a casual glance at the tires will give you ample visual indication that one of them is flat.
Of course you do because that's your vision of the job. Then a car comes in the door and none of the tires are flat and suddenly you don't have a clue about what to do next unless someone else can hold your hand and tell you what to do.
Searching for a similar problem, especially if it's new to me, would be way high up in my diagnostic flowchart.
Wouldn't they ALL be new to you?
Not if I was a tech.
Seems to me that if a car came in with a flat (my initial scenario), I'd check that before checking the sensors.
Now, if someone came in with the TPMS light on, I'm still going to check the tires first before hooking up a scan tool.
And if the light is on and all the tires are within spec (including the spare, if any) and nothing is throwing a code on my super-deluxe up to date factory reader, yeah, I think I'll log on and see if anyone else has experienced the issue before I run up a three hour diagnostic tab only to find out that some tech in Vermont already figured out that a pallet of bad sensors got sent to the factory for three weeks in June and fail without triggering a code and otherwise pass the usual tests in the flow chart.
Seems to me that if a car came in with a flat (my initial scenario), I'd check that before checking the sensors.
This reminds me of the TPMS story where one of the writers was using that $3.00 gage (150 psi range) and couldn't figure out why the display showed all of the tires 5psi lower than his gage showed them.
And if the light is on and all the tires are within spec (including the spare, if any) and nothing is throwing a code on my super-deluxe up to date factory reader, yeah, I think I'll log on and see if anyone else has experienced the issue before I run up a three hour diagnostic tab only to find out that some tech in Vermont already figured out that a pallet of bad sensors got sent to the factory for three weeks in June and fail without triggering a code and otherwise pass the usual tests in the flow chart.
So you write this as if there is even a shred of it that represents what the job is like and the kind of information that is really available. Not to mention having a service tech anywhere be able to prove anything more than whether a given component is doing its job right now or not. Heck they aren't paid enough time to do what they are supposed to do under warranty and you think they have time to go out snipe hunting.
The question was whether a tech would look at available resources "online". Whether I'm a tech or not isn't the issue. If I'm paying someone to fix my car and it's a problem the tech hasn't seen, I want him to get online before spending hours messing with a scanner and the factory shop manual.
That happens with real docs by the way. My wife had a doc look up skin conditions on Google to verify a diagnosis of lyme disease. I'd think it'd make more sense for a tech seeing a new problem to go online before getting deep in the diagnostic chart and going down every yes/no branch for an hour or two. If you don't tag onto someone's coattails, all that dogged persistence doing the diagnostics "by the book" either, as you said, gets you paid .3 hours - or the customer takes it in the shorts.
In the consumer computer world, it's a waste of time to read the manual. If I get a BSOD or want to know how to change Word to shrink-to-fit print mode, I get online because someone, somewhere has likely already experienced the problem and maybe has a fix. And computer setups are as unique as cars, if not more so - if you're online the advertisers can ID your specific computer just from the hardware components and software installed.
Seems like you said you get shops contacting you for help with the tricky stuff. Don't want to make assumptions but I assume you gather some info and ask the other tech if they checked x, y and z. That's the equivalent of "getting online".
I reemember a few years ago I had a problem---the glovebox on my Mini would pop open when you hit a hard bump (every bump is a hard bump on a Mini). I checked with Mini and even with a good Indie shop and was told "Oh, yeah, those latches wear out--you need a new latch, but unfortunately, they only come as part of the glove box door---that'll cost $XXXXXXXXX dollars".
Sooooo, I went online to see if anyone else has dealt more imaginatively with this issue, and lo and behold, there's a YouTube video with a guy tucking a piece of foam rubber behind the latch catch.
Could it be THAT simple I thought? I tried it. It works perfectly, and has continued to for two years.
Cost? Maybe .05 cents.
Ditto that with my Dodge Truck. The ABS light goes on and the speedometer quits. Hmmm....that can't be a coincidence.....go online, and found out about a speed sensor in the differential housing of all places. I even found a video that told me how to fix it, and what tools I needed.
I have a new plan. If something really major goes wrong with my Mini, I'm going to just junk it. Repairs just cost too much. It's a car that reinforces the Golden Rule of buying German---after the warranty runs out, sell it.
yeah, right. Perfect solution for Las Cruces----NOT!
I am seriously....SERIOUSLY...considering building an older simpler car, like a Volvo 122S, and putting in vintage AC. I can fix anything on that car. I am a 100% fully qualified Volvo technician circa 1966! I will be the CarDoc of SU carburettors, pushrod engines, and ignition points.
Free at last! No more a hostage to computers and nanny gadgetry. My only homage to modern cars would be the basic safety features of seat belts and radials and better lighting.
Comments
My present tooling level would see me be able to handle 100% of the mechanical demands on your Mini, and somewhere in the 70%-80% of the computer, and especially software oriented issues that the dealer can. It would cost me well over $20K to close that gap, which BTW would have the benefit of also granting me the same capability with BMW. The cost to renew each year after the initial investment would then run some $7K a year. The real problem is there would never be enough of them for me to justify that additional expense if I chose to open the shop back up full time.
There's the warranty work, and then there is the repair work.
The problems that arise from warranty work are more often than not, more the creation of the car manufacturer and the dealership owner than the dealer's technicians.
The problems that arise from repair work, either at the dealership or at an independent shop are more often than not, the product of poor communication on the part of the shop and unrealistic expectations on the part of the car owner. And of course, there is that certain percentage that we chalk up to greed, incompetence, or both.
The auto repair business is evolving rapidly and the only bright future I see for anyone who enjoys life as an auto technician is to specialize.
To draw a crude parallel, the GP in the medical field makes the least money and is the least content, whilst the medical specialists seem to fare a good deal better.
The picture that I would need them to paint for me is exactly what is going on when the symptom generally occurs. I want to rule in, or rule out if engine torque/vibration is a factor which would tend to indicate if a wiring harness abrasion is plausible or not.
I would advise against any speculation of a potential charging system issue or similar possible cause until testing provided data that would guide someone in that direction. To answer the question as asked however it would seem unlikely, very unlikely.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://papers.sae.org/2013-01-1298/
As to this quote in the paper:
"Original equipment (OE) catalytic converters are designed to last the life of properly tuned and maintained vehicles. "
All I can say for Mini owners is: DON'T WE WISH
Thanks for the thoughts on the fuse popping at 4500 rpm. I will convey these questions to the owner because I'm very curious about this problem. It's one of those weird car events that is intriguing to solve.
I'd say that was about average (or better) that most any industry, except perhaps for physicians who typically have three years of clinical residency.
That Wyotech place was a diploma place - the feds were shutting the parent company down last year when they filed banko and completely shut down all their "campuses".
Do you want your kid to do hard physical labor for $14 an hour or code for $14?
The second comment has this gem: "Most shops still pay based on the flat rate system which should be illegal."
I'm looking forward to the class action suits by owners of cars under warranty who can't get their cars fixed timely at the dealer due to lack of techs.
Robotic plug and play may have to be the future, wrenching seems like time intensive dead end.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Here is what that poster needs to do for the first step of the analysis of his vehicle problem. You won't find this in a book. Nobody has ever taught to do this.
Which fuse are you pulling to shut this down? How accurate is your voltmeter? The reason I ask that is the first step of this is to prove if you are opening the circuit that is using false power, or the one that is creating the false power to keep the car running.
First identify which fuse block terminal is the one that feeds power to the fuse key on engine off. (KOEO) With the problem occurring you need to measure across the fuse contacts with your volt meter's lowest setting. You will get a very small voltage, something on the order of 4.0mv ( .0040) or less in most cases. What is important for this first step is the polarity of the voltage in relationship to which connection for the fuse gets normal system power. Put the positive lead of your meter to the connection that should have power and the negative lead to the one that the fuse protects. Now is your meter reading a positive voltage, or a negative voltage?
A positive voltage means that power is being input to that fuse from another circuit that shares the same output from the ignition switch. A negative voltage indicates that the problem is being created by a failure on that protected circuit. This starts to narrow down which circuits need to be tested further and which ones don't.
On the other hand, charging a good and regular customer to just tell them what the CEL means is outrageous. It must take all of 3 minutes to plug in a scanner and say "P0456. No biggie...you can take the kids to school and come back next week and we'll look into it".
I don't understand why you wouldn't tag onto someone's coattails. That's what dealer techs do - there's a non-stop flow of information about issues and how people have figured out ways to fix the issues. Some of those tech notes wind up being TSBs. Seems kind of negligent not to see if a similar problem has a fix, especially if it's something the tech hasn't seen before. Wouldn't that be part of the diagnostic process?
For the indy shops, Alldata is full of tech tips that mechanics send in.
Also, the indy shops that specialize in different makes often do referrals back and forth, and if they are close enough, freely exchange tools or literature. Naturally, this doesn't occur among strangers.
As far as only being able to rely on TSB's or answers from another source do we have to link GM's Stabilitrak complaints here? Or any of the other threads and posts that describe multiple visits, and parts replaced that failed to fix a given vehicle no matter how many times it was the answer on others? Tossing parts like that is where tagging someone else's coat tails leads. Expecting someone to do that discourages the tech from being disciplined and finding their own way.
All of your "successful shop" examples are nice but how many stories would be told if we talked to the employee's both present and past that worked to build someone else's dream?
Techs are being punished, cheated and harassed all of the time, all across the country and it needs to be brought out into the open in order to change things. Everyone notices the results, especially when it leads to force the techs to oversell in order to try and turn enough hours that they don't lose their jobs. Which of course when someone finally does complain and/or catch them it costs them their job anyway only to have someone new step into the same trap.
I don't know how people like Dave work with difficult problems. He's very smart, so I guess he does his best. I know he wouldn't charge if he failed. I suspect he picks and chooses, and is probably too generous with his time. Given what I see in his shop, I think he knows his strengths and weaknesses.
BTW, the polarity of the voltage drop across the fuse thing. I have never seen that discussed nor mentioned before. Electricity has been around a long time and understanding voltage drop in a circuit is a requirement for any electrical/electronics technician. We even use voltage drop across the fuse for parasitic drain testing to identify the circuit that has the draw, but that exact use that I posted this morning came out of the blue, right at the moment that I was thinking about that particular vehicle problem. I posted it as a technician training aid right after I wrote it here and it has created quite a stir among the educators that frequent the forum I posted it on.
Soooo, Doc's idea of checking the polarity of the current at the fuse pulled by the owner to stop the car was----a clever idea I thought--even though I didn't think of that part.
I had the notion that perhaps voltage was bleeding through a diode in the alternator. Hey, why not?
Searching for a similar problem, especially if it's new to me, would be way high up in my diagnostic flowchart.
You kind of make it sound like you reinvent the wheel every time someone pulls into the shop. I have this image of you pulling out your code reader to check the TPMS light (and charging someone shop time) when a casual glance at the tires will give you ample visual indication that one of them is flat.
Seems to me that if a car came in with a flat (my initial scenario), I'd check that before checking the sensors.
Now, if someone came in with the TPMS light on, I'm still going to check the tires first before hooking up a scan tool.
And if the light is on and all the tires are within spec (including the spare, if any) and nothing is throwing a code on my super-deluxe up to date factory reader, yeah, I think I'll log on and see if anyone else has experienced the issue before I run up a three hour diagnostic tab only to find out that some tech in Vermont already figured out that a pallet of bad sensors got sent to the factory for three weeks in June and fail without triggering a code and otherwise pass the usual tests in the flow chart.
That happens with real docs by the way. My wife had a doc look up skin conditions on Google to verify a diagnosis of lyme disease. I'd think it'd make more sense for a tech seeing a new problem to go online before getting deep in the diagnostic chart and going down every yes/no branch for an hour or two. If you don't tag onto someone's coattails, all that dogged persistence doing the diagnostics "by the book" either, as you said, gets you paid .3 hours - or the customer takes it in the shorts.
In the consumer computer world, it's a waste of time to read the manual. If I get a BSOD or want to know how to change Word to shrink-to-fit print mode, I get online because someone, somewhere has likely already experienced the problem and maybe has a fix. And computer setups are as unique as cars, if not more so - if you're online the advertisers can ID your specific computer just from the hardware components and software installed.
Seems like you said you get shops contacting you for help with the tricky stuff. Don't want to make assumptions but I assume you gather some info and ask the other tech if they checked x, y and z. That's the equivalent of "getting online".
Sooooo, I went online to see if anyone else has dealt more imaginatively with this issue, and lo and behold, there's a YouTube video with a guy tucking a piece of foam rubber behind the latch catch.
Could it be THAT simple I thought? I tried it. It works perfectly, and has continued to for two years.
Cost? Maybe .05 cents.
Ditto that with my Dodge Truck. The ABS light goes on and the speedometer quits. Hmmm....that can't be a coincidence.....go online, and found out about a speed sensor in the differential housing of all places. I even found a video that told me how to fix it, and what tools I needed.
Parts: $14 at Rockauto includes a new harness
Labor: 20 minutes
I am seriously....SERIOUSLY...considering building an older simpler car, like a Volvo 122S, and putting in vintage AC. I can fix anything on that car. I am a 100% fully qualified Volvo technician circa 1966! I will be the CarDoc of SU carburettors, pushrod engines, and ignition points.
Free at last! No more a hostage to computers and nanny gadgetry. My only homage to modern cars would be the basic safety features of seat belts and radials and better lighting.
Old cars drive... like old cars.
The new Tesla is has been revealed and it sounds like Elon is trying to stick to his $35,000 list price.