A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

stever

Yeah, you're right, and considering all the things that can go wrong with a vehicle, most techs seem to be able to fix them okay. There's just enough of them out there doing the BS instead of everyday brilliance to taint the whole lot of them.

And since the breed seems to be dying off, something else needs to happen.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Yeah, you're right, and considering all the things that can go wrong with a vehicle, most techs seem to be able to fix them okay.

I used to say that three out of five things that I do are something that I have never seen before, it's getting to be closer to five out of five, and there is no room for failure in a consumers eye's. The Taurus had to be figured out in a single diagnostic visit. Identifying exactly what was wrong took less than ten minutes. But before that could happen it took close to an hour to research and design the testing sequence. The really tough part was finding out where the failure was, and to do that it was going to require some physical effort.

How the test was set up.


The scope ready to go out on the road.



The failure is in the wiring harness. The yellow trace ramping up when the green trace drops shows that the current is flowing through the wire to where ever it is going to ground. The second capture between five and seven seconds shows the solenoid #3 being turned on when it is down to around .5v just like the blue and red traces drop to .5v when they are turned on. But right after the cursor you can see the votive go all the way to 0v. That means there is another ground connection being made before the computer.

The harness is down there, and it was a difficult to disconnect and pull out of the engine compartment as it is to try and see it.

.
The Harness removed from the rear of the engine.


Here is the failure which was only pin pointed by stripping the harness.


Now all I have to do is repair it, tape it back up and reinstall it. The best part is now that I posted this, someone can google Taurus and bucks and they will eventually find this post. What do you suppose the odds of this "exact same failure" being what is wrong with someone else's car might be? What's really bad about that is there will be no shortage of pressure to get someone to just try and use a silver bullet answer from information like this instead of guiding the technician into practicing the solid routine that resulted in the right answer, the first time. Meanwhile there will be plenty of blame for them if they give in and blindly just pull the harness out and not find anything too. Of course there would be the smug "I knew that is what it was" (when they really didn't) if by the most unlikely chance of events that they in fact confirm an abraided harness.

stever said:

There's just enough of them out there doing the BS instead of everyday brilliance to taint the whole lot of them.

And since the breed seems to be dying off, something else needs to happen.

What needs to happen first is for the outside pressure to avoid following a solid diagnostic routine has to stop. Techs have to be encouraged to be patient and disciplined and take the time to work through each and every problem. There is no other way to really develop the skills that are required. Of course they also have to be paid to do so. Anything else forces them into shooting from the hip and its time that the fingers be pointed in the right direction as to who is causing that to happen.

stever

Look at that engine. Look at that rat's nest of wiring. Look at this one.

Don't blame your mechanic, blame the auto engineer.

thecardoc3

Is there something that's really any different than what I have been seeing for years in this photo? Heck, I can see the coils, which means the plugs are easier to get to than most of the cars on the street today. Of course not that there is much money to be made there, we don't do "tune-ups" anymore.

stever

Time to weld the hoods shut.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Time to weld the hoods shut.

That will only cost you $25K a year to drive then.

stever

You can find leases every day for $199. So more like starting at $2400 a year.

thecardoc3

stever said:

You can find leases every day for $199. So more like starting at $2400 a year.

But you won't find them if the hoods are welded shut. The prices you just quoted require the cars to be available for a resale. If they aren't serviceable and are pure throwaway's then the first owner will have to pay for the entire cars life, even if they only have it for a year or two.

thecardoc3

The Yukon. The question was asked, "What is the next step?" The answer is definitely NOT to jump to any conclusions. You have to ask some questions about the situation and seek the answers. For example.

The codes set at idle, but does that mean that it is lean at idle only, or is it having fuel trim issues at other engine loads? If idle only, then a vacuum leak becomes more likely. But of it is lean at all engine loads then there are other possibilities in play such as fuel quality or delivery issues. The car could still have a vacuum leak, it just might not be the only problem. You have to prove as much as you can before any repairs are attempted.

The other question was what about the catalyst efficiency codes? The first question that you need the answer to is when does the catalyst monitor run, and under what conditions?

Are there any TSB's or software updates for this vehicle?
What is the fuel pressure?
Are the O2 sensors responding correctly?
Are there any exhaust leaks, especially before the downstream catalyst and O2 sensors?
Are there misfires logged in history?

Depending on what is found in the initial investigation, then the next course of action can be determined.

stever

thecardoc3 said:

stever said:

You can find leases every day for $199. So more like starting at $2400 a year.

But you won't find them if the hoods are welded shut. The prices you just quoted require the cars to be available for a resale. If they aren't serviceable and are pure throwaway's then the first owner will have to pay for the entire cars life, even if they only have it for a year or two.

I don't think so - I think it'll be cost effective to upgrade them (software you know) and swap out the systems. Going to a subscription model if you will.

thecardoc3

stever said:

I don't think so - I think it'll be cost effective to upgrade them (software you know) and swap out the systems. Going to a subscription model if you will.

Maybe you should look and see what refurbished PC's go for when they have had upgrades done to them that pull them closer to the current day standard. The cost involved forces the people who did the upgrades to quite often make little to no profit on the effort. From the consumers POV, the small difference in price between a new and a refurbished one doesn't support choosing the dated machine if the rebuilder prices it correctly. PC's are simple compared to cars. With prices that would end up virtually the same between a new car and truly rebuilt one, why would anyone choose the refurbished one?

thecardoc3

This sounds like a good program. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160307/RETAIL07/303079990/1147

Almost hate to wonder how long it will be before someone comes along and messes it up in order to turn higher profits.

stever

I've had good luck with refurbs and people aren't shy about buying used cars. And they sometimes pay crazy money for a CPO one, when they could get a new one for not much more (my sister for example.... )

There's always pros and cons but the current R&R system has bogged down under it's own (inefficient) weight.

Mr_Shiftright

thecardoc3 said:

This sounds like a good program. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160307/RETAIL07/303079990/1147

Almost hate to wonder how long it will be before someone comes along and messes it up in order to turn higher profits.

I liked the part about how the younger apprentices help the older technicians with "the heavy lifting". With an average age of 52 at that dealership group, a man doesn't have that many more years before the physical labor of being an auto tech gets to him, or injures him permanently. All that bending, straining and lifting, and working with some pretty nasty tools, takes its toll. It's a young man's job, hopefully using an older man's brains.

thecardoc3

One of the bad parts now is that there is nothing for the older guys in the trade if they are forced to hang it up because of health issues. It's rare for a tech to stay at a shop long enough to get even partially vested in any retirement programs, and it would be naïve to think that the techs are at fault for that. Notice how one of the biggest concerns is for this dealer to bring someone in, train them and grow them into the career, only to have someone else just turn around and try to lure them away instead of making the same kind of investment.

It should be eye opening that the average age of their techs is 52. The abuses that have gone on in the shadows for the last few decades has just about wiped a generation of people from the ranks who could have been great techs.

thecardoc3

Yet another article. At least the more people are talking about this, the sooner things just might really start to change.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160307/RETAIL07/303079989/1147

When the career becomes one they would want their own kids to have, you will see most of the rest of the problems solve themselves.

thecardoc3

LOL. Just saw the heading for one of the other articles. It says Tesla will tow one of their cars up to 500 miles to a service center for free. I wonder how you are supposed to get it back home if they tow it that far away. It's not like it can actually run that far.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe they fill up the back seat with batteries and you mail them back when you get home? Or you can go to their charging station if it's anywhere near the direction you are heading. If you live in someplace like Nevada, you ain't never gettin' home.

isellhondas

Halfway between Reno and Las Vegas? Yikes!

Same applies to getting a flat with your lovely ran flat tires and no spare!

Mr_Shiftright

You could DIE out there.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

You could DIE out there.

But what did it cost you to get your car fixed?????? :~)

Mr_Shiftright

You mean repairing a Tesla when it's out of warranty? Oh, that's going to be fun---can you say "Only Game In Town?"

What do hybrid owners do? Doc, are you fully trained to work on all hybrids?

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

You could DIE out there.

It sounds like you've made that drive and, you COULD die out there. Literally!

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, many times. Not much out there, and least nothing I'd want to meet. It's like the middle of Kansas, but without the water and the nightlife.

Playing with my new VOM today. Tried out a nifty new way to test for a gummed up throttle plate. If you get a value higher than .5V from the voltage input line, you probably have a dirty throttle body.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

You mean repairing a Tesla when it's out of warranty? Oh, that's going to be fun---can you say "Only Game In Town?"

What do hybrid owners do? Doc, are you fully trained to work on all hybrids?

On "ALL" hybrids, no. It's too expensive to tool up for all of the different manufacturers, so it also makes no sense to learn how to work on stuff that I have no plan on ever taking in. But for the ones that I do work on, let's just say that when it comes to that training, I teach the classes.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Playing with my new VOM today. Tried out a nifty new way to test for a gummed up throttle plate. If you get a value higher than .5V from the voltage input line, you probably have a dirty throttle body.

Then you look at a car who's throttle position sensors (note the plural) have one that sweeps from approximately 1v and goes up to about 4v, while its companion starts at 4v and goes down to 1v as the throttle is opened.
Another has three sensors, as the throttle opens one goes up from .5v to 4v, one goes from 3.5v and goes down to .5v, and the third goes from 1.5v to 3.7v.

I can think of at least six more variations offhand, but you learn to not trust your memory and make part of the routine to pull service information and make sure how a system on any given car works.

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure, goes without saying. I always get the factory service manual for all of my cars, if available, and if not, try AllData or some such. But a) I had working off CD manuals and b) I don't much enjoy working on cars like I used to. I'm more inclined to interrogate poor techs like you when they're working on my car, to ask how they arrived at the conclusions they arrived at. Most are pretty good about that, but now and then you can tell they're guessing. Like "there's play in the ball joint" "OK, how MUCH play?" "UHHHHHHH"

thecardoc3

Did you ever hear of Mode $06? Mode $06 is part of global OBDII and it is the test results for the non-continuous monitors. Now all manufacturers (and scan tools) don't support Mode $06 equally so the data isn't always as easy to interpret as what you are about to see.

A non-continuous monitor one that takes two fails in succession to generate a trouble code and a check engine light. A monitor is a test or series of tests that evaluate systems such as catalyst efficiency, evaporative emissions, etc.

Here is the Mode $6 data right after 80,000 miles when the emissions warranty would have expired on my Ford Escape 2.5l



Now compare that data to what was captured at 150K miles.



Mode $06 can be used to see not only if a monitor that has run passed or failed, but by what margin did it actually pass of fail. In some cases it can allow for someone to zero in on exactly what part of a test resulted in a trouble code being generated. It also allows for a way to verify if a given repair has solved a specific problem completely or not.

stever

Wouldn't it be nice if you could pull up that info on your dash screen or have it emailed to your device? Or to your tech?

"No one likes taking a car in for service, and as J.D. Power's latest study shows, we loathe the process more today than we did a year ago."

J.D. Power: Acura, MINI ace dealer service survey, Fiat Chrysler brings up the rear (thecarconnection.com)

thecardoc3

stever said:

Wouldn't it be nice if you could pull up that info on your dash screen or have it emailed to your device? Or to your tech?

By posting that data, you gained access to it without really learning where it came from nor what any of it really means. That data could now be used to potentially help you do your job just as easily as it could be used to fault you for your professional shortcomings. Under the heading of supposedly helping you do your job, a third party will be skimming profits for having only collected data and sending out an email. Meanwhile whether you learned how to genuinely use it or not it would be used to produce yet another wage and earnings barrier for you as a professional since it took away the responsibility for you to invest in the ability to gather and interpret that information yourself. Over time such barriers will teach you to not even bother trying to improve yourself nor your skills because there will be little to no return on the investment for having done so even though its inevitable that for all of the good making such information simpler might have been, you will still bear the brunt of the blame for when a situation occurs that demands more training and skill to solve.

In short, you as the technician lose career potential on the personal side, you lose on the professional side, someone else gains indefinitely for having done something one time and the consumer is left to wonder why
"no-one" can fix their car when it is really broken.

stever

thecardoc3 said:

By posting that data, you gained access to it without really learning where it came from nor what any of it really means.

Yes because that information should be closely guarded and only accessible to the high priests of auto repair and their congregation of dues paying guild members, who in turn will read the runes and decipher the higher meaning in exchange for your dollars.

You get a new gas cap and a nice bill and drive off none the wiser.

thecardoc3

stever said:

You get a new gas cap and a nice bill and drive off none the wiser.

Only to have the light come back on because that wasn't "it"

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/40136/dodge/neon/camshaft-sensors-cheaper-by-the-dozen#latest

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/11316/buick/enclave/buick-enclave-no-start-problems#latest

stever

And there's a zillion posts around the net where people have diagnosed their car problems using forums, or TSBs from the NHTSA or free wiring diagrams or parts listings from RockAuto or 2CarPros or AutoZone and all the rest.

Before the net, we'd do the same thing, but we'd have to ask around, hit the library, borrow someone's Chiltons or skim back issues of Popular Mechanics.

I belong to a guild but they are no longer guardians of secret information and it's not a path to financial success.

thecardoc3

stever said:

And there's a zillion posts around the net where people have diagnosed their car problems using forums, or TSBs from the NHTSA or free wiring diagrams or parts listings from RockAuto or 2CarPros or AutoZone and all the rest.

It's almost funny how you ignore that none of those tips would ever exist if first someone who had the training and experience hadn't used it to figure out what was wrong in order to document the condition.

stever said:

Before the net, we'd do the same thing, but we'd have to ask around, hit the library, borrow someone's Chiltons or skim back issues of Popular Mechanics.

Before the net, technology in general was much simpler.

stever said:

I belong to a guild but they are no longer guardians of secret information and it's not a path to financial success.

Yea, there isn't much need for book binders any more is there......

stever

You'd be surprised at what people with zero experience in a field can figure out on their own. In fact, many innovations have come about that way because a "newbie" took a fresh approach to a problem instead of doing everything by the book.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well sure, goes without saying. I always get the factory service manual for all of my cars, if available, and if not, try AllData or some such. But a) I had working off CD manuals and b) I don't much enjoy working on cars like I used to. I'm more inclined to interrogate poor techs like you when they're working on my car, to ask how they arrived at the conclusions they arrived at. Most are pretty good about that, but now and then you can tell they're guessing. Like "there's play in the ball joint" "OK, how MUCH play?" "UHHHHHHH"

Remember Motor's Repair Manuals? I still have one from 1972 somewhere in our garage.

Those sure wouldn't work today!

thecardoc3

stever said:

You'd be surprised at what people with zero experience in a field can figure out on their own.

Just think what they could have done had they had a little help.

stever said:

In fact, many innovations have come about that way because a "newbie" took a fresh approach to a problem instead of doing everything by the book.

Seems like you haven't figured any of this out yet. You have gotten to see quite a few testing routines here that are anything but "by the book". Its strange how you come across as trying to praise innovation, and yet turn around and try to squash it with the same breath.

stever

Only those with the multi-thousand dollar tools get to see the fancy readouts. Looks to me like the "guild" is playing hide the ball with a lot of the info.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Only those with the multi-thousand dollar tools get to see the fancy readouts. Looks to me like the "guild" is playing hide the ball with a lot of the info.

What are you talking about? Global OBDII Mode $06 is already available to anyone who has purchased a scan tool capable of accessing it. It's been that way since OBDII was first implemented. How is it someone else's fault that you never bothered to look? There are some tools and systems that make it easier to work with, but that doesn't make it hidden, or secret. If you had bothered to even try to examine what I posted, maybe you would have been able to figure out how to interpret the data and judge how healthy the catalyst was at 80K, and how healthy it is (or is not) now at 150K. Guess you aren't enough of a noob to be innovative.

BTW. It would be great if there was an auto technicians/mechanics guild, but we don't have any such thing.

stever

And the subscriptions are free now too? Good to hear. Of course what I really want isn't the readouts but the computer diagnosis (es) telling me why the readouts are out of spec.

I don't know about a tech union - techs up in Canada seem to have to jump through more hoops to get certified to work on cars (at least in some provinces/territories?) but all that bureaucracy may just wind up limiting consumer's options. Don't really hear all that much about the California system. Seems like that's aimed more at chasing down auto shop fraud than getting techs trained to work in the industry. And I bet that's the outfit that told AutoZone and the rest that they couldn't hook up scanners to people's cars for free.

Just a broken system.

thecardoc3

stever said:

And the subscriptions are free now too? Good to hear. Of course what I really want isn't the readouts but the computer diagnosis (es) telling me why the readouts are out of spec.

The software program can determine "IF" something is out of spec, that's what a trouble code is, the identification number for a test that has failed. The software cannot tell "why" something is out of spec.

stever said:

I don't know about a tech union - techs up in Canada seem to have to jump through more hoops to get certified to work on cars (at least in some provinces/territories?) but all that bureaucracy may just wind up limiting consumer's options.

I thought you were all about limiting consumer options. Change entire assemblies, instead of fixing what they already have.

stever said:

Don't really hear all that much about the California system. Seems like that's aimed more at chasing down auto shop fraud than getting techs trained to work in the industry. And I bet that's the outfit that told AutoZone and the rest that they couldn't hook up scanners to people's cars for free.

That was never "free". Consumers paid a lot of money for parts that they didn't need under the disguise of pulling codes and claiming it was a diagnosis. That was all about selling parts, especially gas caps whether one was genuinely needed or not.

stever said:

Just a broken system.

And you like it that way.

stever

>>The software cannot tell "why" something is out of spec.

Why not?

Mr_Shiftright

Because it was invented 20 years ago. How'd you like to be working all day on a Mac Quadra right now?

stever

Dunno Shifty, if a human can look at four screens of readouts and figure out what's broken, I don't know why software couldn't do the same.

thecardoc3

Because the human in this case has to act physically and change the environment (perspective) in order to prove what has occurred. The computer and it's software can only determine "for example" if the voltage is out of spec on a given circuit. The computers have gotten sophisticated enough that when the computer see's a low voltage on a circuit it can tell the difference between the circuit being open, or if in fact the wire is grounded (shorted). But its just not possible for it to do more. It cannot identify where the failure is, that is still going to take a human to do.

stever

There's that word again. ("impossible").

Guess you'll believe it when your self-driving car runs down to pick up a 3D printer built pizza at the former parts store down the street.

That reminds me - saw something unusual today. A genuine auto mechanic machine shop. How many more years do you give indies like that place? Ten? Five?

Mr_Shiftright

There will always be machine shops for the classic and race car biz.

Oh, by "20 years ago" I meant the OBD-II system. It's an antiquated interface.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

There will always be machine shops for the classic and race car biz.

There are still blacksmiths too, they are just few and far between.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh, by "20 years ago" I meant the OBD-II system. It's an antiquated interface.

There never really was OBD-I, and OBD-III already exists but it isn't called that. (Think On-Star etc.)

Mr_Shiftright

Oh BAH---the classic and race car and customizing industry is huge. There will always be shops for hot-rodding, fabrication, and engine building. True, they won't be Mom and Pop operations. They'll be at a skill level that you yourself can admire.

thecardoc3

stever said:

There's that word again. ("impossible").

Guess you'll believe it when your self-driving car runs down to pick up a 3D printer built pizza at the former parts store down the street.

If /when 3D printers become able to spit out a pizza, there will be no need for a pizza shop. You'll just make it at home, although you'll probably have to pay for the license to use the APP.

stever said:

That reminds me - saw something unusual today. A genuine auto mechanic machine shop. How many more years do you give indies like that place? Ten? Five?

A few will outlast us, but they will need to keep drawing from ever larger areas to have enough customers to support them. When the customers are gone, they will be too.