A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

stever

lol, the pizza shop pizzas may be more palatable than the home versions. I guess anything "fresh" would taste good on Mars though. (theverge.com)

>>keep drawing from ever larger areas

Well, that sounds a bit like my theory about replaceable parts/sections where the broken stuff gets sent to Omaha for refurb. May we live long enough to see who has the most half-baked theories.

thecardoc3

stever said:

lol, the pizza shop pizzas may be more palatable than the home versions. I guess anything "fresh" would taste good on Mars though. (theverge.com)

Too bad you didn't realize that before they went out of business. But your printer still has another 25 years worth of materials in it to make pizza's and the license to make them is only costing you $500 a year whether you make any or not, so you might as well enjoy them. (as much as possible)

stever said:

Well, that sounds a bit like my theory about replaceable parts/sections where the broken stuff gets sent to Omaha for refurb. May we live long enough to see who has the most half-baked theories.

LOL. Half baked ideas. Got to give you a point for that one.

Have you paid attention to the WalMart Express stores that are closing? When those stores opened they were lauded for better prices for the towns that they went into by everyone except the small family stores that had been supporting those communities. The consumer made their choice and forced those families out of business.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/16/business/walmart-to-close-269-stores.html?_r=0

Now the Walmarts are going away and many of those communities are stranded without a choice about where to get even the most basic essentials in their own town.
http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/01/31/walmart-new-food-deserts
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5181097

Mr_Shiftright

You still have carpenters, and they've been around a long, long time. Probably the most half-baked theories in the 20 th century centered around "houses of the future".

Futurists are ALWAYS wrong---turns out, yeah, man learned to fly, but you know what, his airplanes didn't have feathers.

stever

Friend of mine over in TX lost their Walmart Express not that long after they opened. But we're getting one a few miles away here in Las Cruces.

The reason the mom & pops went out of business was because they (usually) charged more than Walmart or other big box stores, had less selection and made it difficult to return anything. The return policy is a big reason I don't miss them. I do use the local lumberyard/hardware stores over Home Depot/Lowes usually though and an indie grocery for meat.

Am I missing your point though? Am I going to miss going to a dealer or auto shop for oil changes or worse?

thecardoc3

stever said:

Am I missing your point though? Am I going to miss going to a dealer or auto shop for oil changes or worse?

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/40161/toyota/highlander/serious-issues-with-2014-highlander-trailer-arm-repair-under-warranty#latest

Odds are that if I was dealing with this car performing a quality repair without having to replace a major assembly (which is something you have repeatedly pushed for) would be "just another day in the office" and it wouldn't have escalated into a nightmare for them. Actually that's part of the problem, people don't realize the value that top techs really bring to the party. They only see what's missing when they don't have one to assist them. Some day you will lose your local lumber yard, and it won't be profitable for someone else to try to replace them so you will be stuck with nothing but Home Depot/Lowes. You'll lose that grocer/butcher shop to the Walmart for the same reasons. Your continued support alone won't keep their doors open.

Mr_Shiftright

I really don't see why we would need a tech of all your training to be smart enough not to strip a mounting bolt on a trailing arm with his air gun.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

I really don't see why we would need a tech of all your training to be smart enough not to strip a mounting bolt on a trailing arm with his air gun.

Sounds a bit like the dealer where Edmunds took their Long Term Viper; a tech wanted to know how to open the trunk because he was "looking for the engine."

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

I really don't see why we would need a tech of all your training to be smart enough not to strip a mounting bolt on a trailing arm with his air gun.

The chicken or the egg...... It doesn't take a master tech to necessarily do it right the first time, but it may easily take one to clean up whatever mess was created by not having one. But since there is so much effort put into discouraging someone from gaining that kind of talent and experience, enjoy changing the sub-frame.

stever

thecardoc3 said:

Some day you will lose your local lumber yard, and it won't be profitable for someone else to try to replace them so you will be stuck with nothing but Home Depot/Lowes. You'll lose that grocer/butcher shop to the Walmart for the same reasons. Your continued support alone won't keep their doors open.

That's okay, the Amazon drone will deliver within an hour. Or the replicator will extrude some 2x4s for me.

And when my car breaks I won't care since the platform will be swapped out and I'll be on my way, after a minor inconvenience visiting the swap shop.

Swap Shop - that'd be a pretty good name for a garage right now, considering how many of them are just parts swappers. And don't worry, Omaha is quite a nice small city, you'll enjoy living and working at the factory rehab facility there.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Swap Shop - that'd be a pretty good name for a garage right now, considering how many of them are just parts swappers.

Why don't you tell that to the owners of the Toyota in the linked post?

stever said:

And don't worry, Omaha is quite a nice small city, you'll enjoy living and working at the factory rehab facility there.

Nope, won't be me.

stever

Oh right, you'll be able to operate the robots in Omaha fine from PA.

What happened to the owners of the Toyota? They have one dealer trying to help but they are getting stonewalled by the manufacturer, who should be yelling at the first dealer for stripping the bolt. What the heck are they supposed to do, get a lawyer?

thecardoc3

Maybe, but first they need someone who can fix the dang car, and then everything else can play out afterwards.

stever

Yeah, that sounds like get Dealer B to fix it right (with documentation), then back-charge the credit card and if Dealer B (the good dealer) doesn't eat it, take both dealers and Toyota to small claims court, where Toyota flips you to federal court.

Yep, sounds like a plan.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Yeah, that sounds like get Dealer B to fix it right (with documentation), then back-charge the credit card

Advice like that should get them their keys and the phone number for a tow truck. Storage fee's waved if it's gone in less than two hours.

stever said:

and if Dealer B (the good dealer) doesn't eat it, take both dealers and Toyota to small claims court, where Toyota flips you to federal court.

Would have been easier (and cheaper) to have someone fix it correctly the first time.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not Dealer B's responsibility to fix it for free. This is a paying job. Then the owner gets to fight with Dealer A and/or Toyota. But Toyota isn't going to stand up for Dealer A's alleged screw-up, unless maybe Dealer A is a "factory darling" and really pushes out the merchandise for Toyota.

I advised the owner to demand a settlement offer from Dealer A, and if they refused to do anything, then make note of date and time and name of person refusing, then have the truck fixed by Dealer B, and then sue Dealer A in Small Claims.

Dealers have errors and omissions insurance so why is Dealer A stonewalling? If Dealer A thinks the bolt was stripped at the factory, then why did they re-install a stripped bolt? If the bolt anchoring hole was damaged at the factory, Dealer A should have noticed that when they pulled out the first stripped bolt.

The decision of the Rt. Honorable Judge Shiftright is that Dealer A and/or Toyota take on these repairs free of charge, or compensate the owner for repairs done by Dealer B.

xwesx

Honorable?! Wait, what?

thecardoc3

http://www.zoo.com/quiz/car-engine-quiz

See how you do.

xwesx

I feel pretty silly; I scored 38/40.

Why isn't 1.21 gigawatts the correct answer?!

stever

Me too.

Maybe someone can tell me just what this "carburetor" thingy is. Is it new?

Mr_Shiftright

It's like a wood stove only smaller.

qbrozen

Doc, I thought that would be tough coming from you. Perfect score. Only one that I wasn't 100% confident in was #1 about the year the 4-stroke was invented, but an educated guess worked.

thecardoc3

There are some out there that are pretty tough, that is one that a high school teacher has been giving to his first year students when the class starts at the beginning of the year.

thecardoc3

Judge the article.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-top-5-motor-oils-that-are-the-best-in-the-business/ss-BBqJmSV?ocid=DELLDHP

Does it really tell the readers what they need to know?
Are there important omissions in the information?

kyfdx

Perfect score, and I have no mechanical aptitude. lol

thecardoc3

Hey Steve. Tesla wants to sell you a used car.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/car-tech/tesla-wants-to-sell-you-a-used-model-s/ar-BB7Tc8K?ocid=DELLDHP

"The problem with financing or leasing a new electric car from a startup company has been the lack of widespread used-car sales to establish accepted pricing for used cars."

This line says it all.

"To bridge that gap and to bring costs down for consumers, Tesla's CEO, Elon Musk, announced last year that he would personally guarantee the resale value of the Model S to be 50 percent of its original value after three years. That allowed the company to offer a pseudo lease with payments as low as $1,500 a month"

What's a pseudo lease? A way to finance a pseudo car?

stever

The new $35,000 model has more appeal even with those gull wing doors. But it looks like the current best bet is the new Chevy Volt. This post today sums it up nicely (and begins with a depreciation comment). Although you'd still be stuck with the ICE maintenance and messing with oil. I suppose GM now has a hybrid dexos III eh? .

100k brake replacement intervals would be nice.

(oh, the pseudo lease is just a way that Tesla is guaranteeing a depreciation floor on the purchase of a new Model S so you can predict your minimum trade-in value).

roadburner

That oil article is totally useless. There's no discussion about choosing an oil that meets the vehicle manufacturer's specs; that is much more important than the brand- at least when you are dealing with the five brands mentioned in the article.Enthusiasts like to argue over which brand is superior, but at the end of the day there is little difference in performance(if any) between quality brands- assuming the oils all meet the same spec(Dexos, LL-01, etc.)

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see Tesla being around all that much longer---maybe 5 years. So it will be a pseudo car soon enough I think.

The engine test was pretty easy, yeah.

That motor oil article reads like a TV infomercial. All we need is the crappy music all automobile shows use in the background, and some guy in an emblem-splattered jacket waving his hands around.

I loved this part:

"We aren't going to inundate you with technical geekery, nor will we give you a chemistry lesson ..."

they left out....."you idiots wouldn't understand it anyway...."

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

I loved this part:

"We aren't going to inundate you with technical geekery, nor will we give you a chemistry lesson ..."
they left out....."you idiots wouldn't understand it anyway...."

With how important O.E. specs are today, leaving that information out suggests it isn't the readers who are the idiots.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, if Popular Mechanics had said that, I'd be very disappointed--but I suspect MSN wrote that, so I'm not surprised.

My dad was a highly skilled automotive engineer, (I know, it didn't rub off) and he always said that you should never talk down to your audience.

thecardoc3

It's just a small evaporative emissions leak, how tough can it be? Another technician shared a photo of a 2015 Corvette in the iATN that was setting a MIL with code P0442 small leak. Using the smoke machine the leak was confirmed to be in the fuel tank area but the exact location could not be determined. That left one option. Pull the tanks and reassemble the system on the floor for testing. How would you like to get paid eighteen minutes to do this?



Now the way it's supposed to work is the technician should get to flag other hours on the job and he/she has to punch in and out for them. But in practice those hours are not guaranteed to be paid, they have to be approved. It's not uncommon for someone to come back and tell the tech something like "If you were as good as you think you are, you should have found the problem faster". The worst part of that is the person making that comment usually has never done any of the work and would themselves fail to deal with the complexity that was in the cars thirty years ago, let alone what this job demanded.

And people wonder why its hard to find qualified techncians...

xwesx

That's a great example, for sure, and I'm guessing that this is something that may have taken more than the prescribed eighteen minutes?

So, to contrast that, here's a "gravy work" story from yesterday:

I took my '69 C20 to a local garage (one of those classic garage/gas station combos that pretty much don't exist any more). It's the shop I've used for this rig for the whole time I've had it in Fairbanks (since 1999), in the rare event there's work it needs that I don't want to do. In this case, I decided to have it professionally "tuned up" in terms of the carb and timing settings, as I had been doing this myself for the last nineteen years or so, and it just didn't seem quite right to me. Symptoms included black smoking (rich) when cold, occasional dieseling on shutoff.

So, I was figuring on maybe as much as $250. They take it in, call me later in the day to let me know its ready. I go to pick it up, and the bill is for nearly $450! I was a little shocked, then looked it over to find out they replaced the spark plugs (charged me $80 for those and $150 in labor)! I was not exactly pleased by that, since this is basically the EASIEST VEHICLE ON THE PLANET on which to change spark plugs. So, I had a heart-to-heart with the service guy about it, and then just let him know that I was going to pay him for the work today, because it is the last time I'm using the business. I also let him know that I was disappointed about the whole thing because I had used the shop since about the time many of his techs were being potty trained.

To end this on a good note, though, the truck runs top-notch now (new plugs or no IMO), so I'm not regretting having the work done, I'm just a bit peeved that I now own the most expensive spark plugs in the world. Haha!

thecardoc3

xwesx said:

Symptoms included black smoking (rich) when cold, occasional dieseling on shutoff.

Black smoke cold, and dieseling when shut off. The dieseling is usually caused by the idle speed being too high, possibly stuck on the fast idle cam if the choke isn't opening correctly. The black smoke cold suggests the choke is closed, possibly that the choke pull off has failed, or the choke cap is simply too tight, or not heating correctly to allow it to open. Which BTW, would keep the fast idle cam holding the idle too high.

xwesx said:

So, I was figuring on maybe as much as $250. They take it in, call me later in the day to let me know its ready. I go to pick it up, and the bill is for nearly $450! I was a little shocked, then looked it over to find out they replaced the spark plugs (charged me $80 for those and $150 in labor)! I was not exactly pleased by that, since this is basically the EASIEST VEHICLE ON THE PLANET on which to change spark plugs.

Even on that old toy, there is more to the job than just changing the spark plugs. I'd expect this has points unless it has been converted. So checking, cleaning and adjusting, if not replacing the points and condenser would be part of this service. Then the timing would then be adjusted as required, which BTW if the timing was retarded, that would slow the idle speed down, and cause yet another reason that someone could have increased the throttle opening to try and set the idle speed, which is yet another reason that the dieseling could have been occurring.

xwesx said:

So, I had a heart-to-heart with the service guy about it, and then just let him know that I was going to pay him for the work today, because it is the last time I'm using the business. I also let him know that I was disappointed about the whole thing because I had used the shop since about the time many of his techs were being potty trained.

So what does that have to do with what it costs to work on today's cars, as well as to have someone on staff to deal with the ancient iron? You accounted for $230 of the total bill, what was the other half of it?

xwesx said:

To end this on a good note, though, the truck runs top-notch now (new plugs or no IMO), so I'm not regretting having the work done, I'm just a bit peeved that I now own the most expensive spark plugs in the world. Haha!

The most expensive plugs in the world? LOL, not even close. You haven't seen what it takes to service a V-8 with two plugs per cylinder (iridium tipped) coil on plug/DIS systems, and that's if you don't service it correctly which includes the coil boots and the plug wires at the same time. Even that example is cheap compared to what some vehicles can be to service.

xwesx

I should probably clarify that my annoyance with the whole thing stemmed from the fact that they just replaced the spark plugs of their own volition. There was no asking whether I wanted them to do it, etc. So, I was left with an after-the-fact choice on how to respond. I think that I took the high road.

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

Even that example is cheap compared to what some vehicles can be to service.

Whoops, we overlapped there.

Thanks for the info on the choke. They said they adjusted both the choke and the timing, but that the main issue that caused everything else to be out of whack was that there was a vacuum problem (at one point he said it was connected wrong, then later it was broken, so I don't know for sure what was wrong - maybe both?!).

The other part of the bill was the diagnostic fee and the tuning, both of which I planned to pay for from the start and were within my original $250 ball-parking.

I have kept the truck fully original, so yes, it does have points. There was no mention on these in the parts list, so I suspect they did not replace anything under the cap, but the labor cost only said "spark plugs R&R," so I don't know what tinkering may have been done.

At the end of the day, they did good work, but they made an assumption that ended up costing me a lot of money. I'll probably get over it and use them again.

---

On the point of originality, I actually have an electronic ignition (distributor), four-barrel intake manifold, and a four-barrel carburetor in my shed that a friend gave me years and years ago. These all would amount to a good upgrade for the truck; I just can't bring myself to install them, though. LOL

xwesx

Somewhat different topic..... My tires on this truck are now nineteen years old! Using it this time of year reminds me that they have been around the block a few times (and traction is pretty sparse!). But, here's the problem: They're 9.5x16.5 (range D) tires. There's only one manufacturer of this tire - Firestone, and they make a highway tire (commercial) for this size that is pretty sketchy in terms of it's performance.

I want to keep my original 16.5 rims (and the dog dish hubcaps!). Are there any other possibilities for tires? I read a little about 31x10.5x16.5 as being an option, but those seem to be unobtanium, too. What say y'all?

thecardoc3

If you used the phrase "tune-up" in regards to your old truck, that means replace the spark plugs, which is why we don't even use the phrase anymore. Back then they didn't do "diagnostics", even if something out of the ordinary was going on. The shop/tech simply took any lost time on the chin as part of the cost of doing business.

It certainly does appear that there was a communication issue, as well as a failure on both parties to set expectations. But as you say in the end, they got it right even though the cost caught you off guard. That doesn't make what they did wrong from the technical side of things. Shame you can't go back now, but that's the way it works. It's gonna be tough if you can't find someone else that can service the truck and handle the quirks from a by-gone era.

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

Black smoke cold, and dieseling when shut off. The dieseling is usually caused by the idle speed being too high, possibly stuck on the fast idle cam if the choke isn't opening correctly. The black smoke cold suggests the choke is closed, possibly that the choke pull off has failed, or the choke cap is simply too tight, or not heating correctly to allow it to open. Which BTW, would keep the fast idle cam holding the idle too high.

And, specific response to this, for the point of clarification of symptoms. The way it behaved previously was that the truck started pretty fast, particularly after recent use (e.g., used it yesterday, starting this morning) it tends to start much like a new car does. Here's a vid of me starting it last spring after sitting all winter. Now, what you don't see in the video, is that after it runs for about 15-20 seconds on start-up, the idle speed bogs down to *very* slow, at which point it does the whole black-smoking thing, and then, as it warms up, the idle continues to speed up until it sounds like it does on initial start (e.g., fast). It stays at this fast idle until I intercede and "kick" the idle down by blipping the throttle.

Once done, it idled nice and slow, but sometimes would like to stall out (particularly in hot ambient weather, like 80-degree-ish).

Now, (as of this morning), when I start it, it starts even faster than before, but it holds the initial start idle, gets a little faster as it warms up, then drops low when I kick it down and holds that idle speed nice and steady (e.g., I don't feel like I have to worry about it maybe stalling).

thecardoc3

LOL. Ok I watched your video of the start up. It took roughly seven seconds of cranking (approx. 140rpm) for the engine for it to start. Since you said it sat all winter, a good portion of that time was probably needed to get enough fuel into the carburetor to get the air/fuel ratio rich enough for starting.

What would happen after that is the carb bowl would continue to fill until the float rises far enough to close the needle valve. Meanwhile the air/fuel ratio would continue to get richer as the fuel level rose until it reached its maximum level. If the choke pull off system isn't operational, that would allow it to go too rich, hence the black smoke. That would lead to fuel fouling of the spark plugs, misfires and makes sense that you describe it as "bogging down to very slow."

Ironically, a vacuum leak at this point could in fact help keep the engine running as it would be serving to counter act the choke driving the system rich.

Now, (as of this morning), when I start it, it starts even faster than before, but it holds the initial start idle, gets a little faster as it warms up, then drops low when I kick it down and holds that idle speed nice and steady (e.g., I don't feel like I have to worry about it maybe stalling).

By now you should be seeing that even with a carburetor, I don't look at that as a single entity. I pay attention to each "fuel and air circuit" in the carb as well as the external controls and how they relate to the varying operating conditions. That's a perspective that has served me well as vehicles have gotten more complex through the years. I can even add into this ignition timing functions such as whether this was strictly manifold vacuum or ported vacuum controlled, or if it used any kind of vacuum switching valve.

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

It's gonna be tough if you can't find someone else that can service the truck and handle the quirks from a by-gone era.

Possibly.

The last time anyone other than me touched that truck was in 2001, when I needed to replace the master cylinder but was dealing with imclement weather (weeks of it, annoyingly), seized nuts (not mine!), a limited tool selection, and the desire to not destroy the brake lines. As such, I don't expect that it will see any mechanical work at a shop for a long time to come. That said, I do have a wide selection of *other* vehicles.

The good news is that they always love it when I do bring the truck in, as they don't get to work on old stuff like that very often.

Mr_Shiftright

Putting on an HEI ignition would be a good idea.

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

Putting on an HEI ignition would be a good idea.

I know, and I have one, but this truck is original right down to the hub caps. I'm not ready to go that route yet (and, yes, I realize we have had this conversation before - at least once! ).

Mr_Shiftright

It's not a Ferrari--you are allowed to do this, and you can always switch it back.

stever

I'm surprised that the bears haven't broken into the cab and eaten the seats....

xwesx

stever said:

I'm surprised that the bears haven't broken into the cab and eaten the seats....

The cushions are not soy-based nor is the sheet metal tinfoil. I suspect they have better (more calorically beneficial) things to do.

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's not a Ferrari--you are allowed to do this, and you can always switch it back.

It's not about any value other than historical. My truck is one-of-a-kind.

stever

We used to go into a friend's cabin just north of Talkeetna and the bears were always eating his snow machine cushions. After a couple or replacements, he finally learned to store the seats inside the cabin.

Have you been following @nyccarguy's post about his Subaru 30k maintenance? Not cheap.

xwesx

stever said:

Have you been following @nyccarguy's post about his Subaru 30k maintenance? Not cheap.

Oh, yes. Mine was a lot less expensive than that. I don't think he either needs or wants critical feedback on the topic, though. After all, I just spent $450 on my truck, but damn does it behave nicely now!

isellhondas

Most shops don't want to work on older cars like your truck. They are afraid something will break that they won't be able to find and that valuable space will be taken up.

And, now if you get a flat the tire shops check the date codes on the tires and will refuse to patch a tire that's past the expiration dates. Does your truck have split rims? Most tire shops won't touch these anymore and for good reason if the lack the experience and proper equipment.

10.00 each for standard AC 45 spark plugs?? 150.00 labor to install them? That's nuts!

Mr_Shiftright

True or False?

If you buy a used ECM, you cannot change the embedded VIN # on every make of car.