A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

clovis_tdi

I've used 7,500 as mileage for regular oil changes on the last # of cars I've owned. The last, a VW Passat 2001, I kept until 230.000 miles then gave it to my son six years ago and it is still running like a champ. Now with synthetic... I've changed to 15,000 oil changes and have not had any engine, rings, or anything show up worn or harmed. The only oil that gets really darker is the diesel oil from my now famous Jetta TDI which is normal. I'd like to be called out if this approach is really bad... but the fruits of my labors seem to grow good car engines.

iluvmysephia1

My '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS service manual said change out oil every 7,500 miles and IIRC, so does the manual for our current car, the 2011 Kia Soul. Sounds like your intervals are fine, clovis_tdi.

clovis_tdi

my new car a subaru forester says to use synthetic and change every 6,000 miles. While they want me to use only Subaru branded oil, type 0W-20 with SAE or ILSAC GF-5 is also OK (in the manual). Can I get by with every 15,000 on this car too?

stever

Not during the warranty period.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, change the oil right on time as the "book" says and keep all your oil change receipts. make sure the weight and type of oil is specified, and preferably the brand and type.

thecardoc3

According to Mitchell Subaru's service intervals are 7500 for normal usage and 3750 for severe. The rest of the oil spec which specifies 0W20, SN/SM, ILSAC 4/5 and then simply says synthetic ignores the fact that the word synthetic is basically meaningless in North America. What's worse is SM and GF4 are obsolete now even though they are still listed in the specs. There is an easy way to choose the right oil for the Subaru, just look for GM's dexos specification on the front of the bottle.

qbrozen

I'll bite: why is "synthetic" meaningless?

thecardoc3

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/950311/1

The story goes that Castrol was selling products as synthetics that were group III products which are conventional oil that has some additional processing. When Mobil 1 tried to nail them for false advertising and failed with the NAD the gates opened up for where we are today. The word "synthetic" isn't restricted to Groups IV, V and V like it is in Europe and parts of Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_oil

Hydrocracking is part of the refining process that allows them to call conventional oil a synthetic in North America. A Group II oil can be treated the exact same way as the group III and be called a synthetic too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_(chemistry)#Hydrocracking

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

stever

It's all marketing in other words. Like branded oil and top tier gas. Who knew Subaru made their own branded oil? Ohhh, dexos, that sounds good, let's try a bottle of that next time before switching to the high mileage oil.

qbrozen

interesting

roadburner

Recently I've had two lease turn-ins where the cars had practically new tires that weren't run-flats. BMW charges $300 a corner if the tires are extremely worn and/or are not run flats(assuming the car was originally fitted with them).
In both cases the lessees told me that the tire store basically told them, "BMW doesn't care what tires are on it as long as the tread is good." Now granted, the lessee should know what type of replacement tire is required-and if they don't they should check with their BMW center-but I suspect one of those tire shops will eventually get caught out and have to eat a $1,200 invoice for talking out of their nether regions...

Mr_Shiftright

that's a very interesting question. My two cents would be that the leasee would be responsible no matter what any shop told them---the only possible exception to my belief is if the shop that gave them the bad info was advertised as a "BMW Specialist" in which case the law could demand a highly level of competency from the shop.

It's like if you go to NAPA to order an oil filter for certain years of Audi and Mini. The counterguy might say "They're all the same, there's only one listing", and that would be very, very, bad if you ended up with the wrong filter on those cars.

roadburner

I'm not suggesting that BMW would sue the tire store; I'm thinking that a lessee might seek redress because the store gave them advice that was completely wrong. I don't think that the shop not being a "BMW Specialist" would absolve them of responsibility; the shop made a false statement and the lessee relied on it to their detriment.

Mr_Shiftright

I dunno, I see your point but I think the case is legally rather weak (if I may presume). It's a "he said /he said" thing without evidence of wrongdoing or intent. I think a Small Claims Ref would just tell the leasee to read his contract next time.

I've been a ref in arbitration and from the facts presented here, that's how I'd rule. BMW Leasing makes all this pretty clear as I recall.

roadburner

If I'd had it in Small Claims I might have assessed 50% of responsibility to the shop if and only if I was convinced that the comment was actually made. If the shop isn't familiar with BMW's leasing policies they shouldn't say anything other than "you should check with BMW about correct replacement tires."

Mr_Shiftright

and the exact wording of the comment, too. If the shop said that only to make the sale, then perhaps I'd have more sympathy for the leasee. You know, something like "Don't worry, we've done this hundreds of times and BMW has never pushed back".

roadburner

Exactly.

thecardoc3

Internet experts tell the consumers that it is OK to replace run flat tires with conventional tires. http://www.tirerack.com/FAQ/index.jsp

Then you have the issue that consumers are always supposed to be right, so you can ding them when they turn the car in but all they have to do is complain loud enough and long enough and somebody above you will give them their way and toss you under the bus in the process.

thecardoc3

stever said:

It's all marketing in other words. Like branded oil and top tier gas. Who knew Subaru made their own branded oil? Ohhh, dexos, that sounds good, let's try a bottle of that next time before switching to the high mileage oil.

When you consider all of the information that has been shared and repeated here over the last five+ years there is no way that you don't know that (and why) what you wrote there is factually incorrect. It isn't marketing, never was. So the question becomes for who (whom) are you working for when you try suggest anything other than what the facts really are? Long life oil? There is nothing in the API and ILSAC specification approvals that distinguishes the difference between what is a conventional service product and what is a long life one. ACEA has such a ratings but without those the purchaser needs to then rely on manufacturer approvals, of which the dexos specification certifies the product as being a long life formulation. Without that a product can say on the bottle that it is a synthetic, is the correct viscosity and actually be no where near correct for a given vehicle to run it for 7500 miles.

stever

Maybe you can point out Subaru's oil refinery on the map (Honda's too, while you are at it).

You just said that "synthetic" meant nothing in the US. Why have it on the label then, if not for marketing?

oooh, here's some "clean" high mileage oil. I should use that in my clean diesel.

thecardoc3

That part is all marketing, but lumping Top Tier and GM's dexos specification in with the synthetic labeling issue as you did is also a form of marketing and a disservice to the readers/consumers/vehicle owners.

thecardoc3

Which while we are on the subject once again, why hasn't Edmunds revisited the oil article here and set the record straight for the consumer? That was nothing but a marketing story that Valvoline has since reversed their position on and now they have dexos approved products. Why isn't that important enough to educate the consumers about?

stever

thecardoc3 said:

That part is all marketing, but lumping Top Tier and GM's dexos specification in with the synthetic labeling issue as you did is also a form of marketing and a disservice to the readers/consumers/vehicle owners.

Now you're getting it. Take another step forward and you'll see that everything is marketing.

Marketing isn't necessarily bad, but you have to test the content and not assume that what's on a label or in an article is the whole story.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Now you're getting it. Take another step forward and you'll see that everything is marketing.

Except for when it isn't.

stever said:

Marketing isn't necessarily bad, but you have to test the content and not assume that what's on a label or in an article is the whole story.

In the technical world, there is no room for marketing that distorts accuracy.

Mr_Shiftright

Marketing is rampant in the technical world, from NASA on down.

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

Internet experts tell the consumers that it is OK to replace run flat tires with conventional tires. http://www.tirerack.com/FAQ/index.jsp

Their answer is perfectly correct for the question as written.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, I thought so. Didn't say anything about turning in a lease car. The day I threw my run flats over the fence was a happy day for me, I'll tell you that.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

thecardoc3 said:

Internet experts tell the consumers that it is OK to replace run flat tires with conventional tires. http://www.tirerack.com/FAQ/index.jsp

Their answer is perfectly correct for the question as written.

Agreed. I don't care all that much for RFTs either; my beef is with the tire stores that purport to know how BMW evaluates a lease turn-in. My 2er came with conventional tires but had they been RFTs I'd be replacing them with conventional rubber when they were worn out.

qbrozen

Oh boy.
My Volvo has been clunking in the rear, and it seems to be the bump stops rattling around inside the springs, which is a common issue. I placed an order on Sunday for the bumpstops, plastic bumpstop mounts, rubber frame insulators, and retaining clips. It seems to me the mount on one side is the real culprit because it does not grip tightly on the pin and I can shake it back and forth by hand.
Today, I get an email telling me part of my order is being refunded because those mounts are out of production. Uh-oh. Ordered them from a 2nd place and within a couple of hours, that order is canceled and their site updated to show "out of production." I have now ordered from a third place and keeping my fingers crossed. I have no idea what I will do if I can't find these. Guess I'll have to make something.

thecardoc3

Think BMW engineers are really smart? Technicians are reporting an issue with a number of the newer models. In the event of a no start it is impossible to get the vehicles out of park (The engine has to be running or it cannot be shifted out of park). Older versions had a tool kit and a solution inside the center consol. Newer models have done away with that system and now the solution is that the technician has to get under the car, remove a belly pan and access an allen head bolt that when screwed into the transmission pan will release the park mechanism putting it into neutral, while the tech is under the car. Just think of all of the challenges to accessing that bolt safely that could potentially arise. The hydraulics on the tow truck are not intended to be used as a jack to allow someone to go underneath a vehicle and perform any kind of service. OSHA would have a field day over someone doing that, and yet here is a car that by design forces the techs to either risk abusing the car to get it ready and safe to tow, or take the personal risk to access that poorly thought out design.

Mr_Shiftright

What do you expect from a company that decides to save money by not even giving you a dipstick?

thecardoc3

More than some design that forces someone to have to risk going under a vehicle in all kinds of possible conditions.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure BMW has an explanation for doing it. I can't think of it, but give me time.

It doesn't eliminate the shift interlock does it?

thecardoc3

The bolt manually disengages the park mechanism inside the transmission when it is turned in. The previous version released the shift interlock inside the car, which just made it possible to shift the car even without the keys.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

What do you expect from a company that decides to save money by not even giving you a dipstick?

With the cost of the sensor and associated cabling I doubt that it was a cost cutting measure.

thecardoc3

mrkool44 said:

Update:

She further stated " we get paid by Infiniti for warranty work"

So, to all of you that say I'm not being "fair" or causing the local dealer to work for "free" when they didn't make money on selling me the car -- you don't know what you're talking about. My local dealer still gets paid on service even if they didn't sell me the car.

The cost of diagnosis was $128. The SA said Infiniti will pay the dealer this amount. I owe $0 for diagnosis.

This is as bad as watching the election reporting. Sure they get paid "something" for the warranty work but they don't get $128 for the diagnostics. The store gets about .3 of their shop rate which if it is $128 an hour works out to $38.40. The technician who probably makes on the order of $30/hr gets just about $10 for that effort.

What you have failed to recognize is sure they work with the vehicle like this first of all because they have a franchise contract that states that they have to but they also do it in the hopes that it earns them ALL of your long term business. But experience has proven there is no guarantee that their efforts will result in you buying the next car from them. Over the years dealers have been forced to take resources away from the service side as sales profits slipped due to consumer habits and it is turning around to haunt the entire trade because of how many techs have left over the resulting very poor pay and working conditions.

FYI.
In the past a diagnostic like a fluid leak would have paid the technician nothing at all. Everybody just assumed that all one had to do was just look at it and they automatically knew what was wrong. It's not impossible to believe that in spite of what you say that the SA said, that may in fact still be the case here, you really don't know for certain. But putting them in a position where they know someone is looking and concerned about how the techs are compensated will do wonders for getting the pay and benefits to reflect the difficulty of the work that you the consumer need the techs to be capable of handling. That should in turn help attract more academically gifted prospects to fill the ranks.

stever

I think we all recognize that dealers and manufacturers have a love/hate relationship.

Not really our problem though, except that consumer choice is limited by keeping the Teslas from opening in a lot of states.

Otherwise the manufacturers could just open up regional service centers and cut the dealers out of the loop.

Mr_Shiftright

How a dealership treats his techs, or how Audi treats his dealers, isn't his problem. He bought a brand new Audi and he want Audi to fix it under the warranty.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

How a dealership treats his techs, or how Audi treats his dealers, isn't his problem. He bought a brand new Audi and he want Audi to fix it under the warranty.

Go ahead and keep that perspective as the shortage of qualified techs gets worse (which is already quite evident in countless other threads here) and then when it can no longer be overlooked and is recognized as a significant consumer issue, make sure the consumers know how much effort went into trying to do something about preventing it.

Mr_Shiftright

that's still not my problem. That's the industry's problem. I'm also not responsible for how fruit is sorted in supermarkets or how much Walmart pays its employees.

thecardoc3

The easiest thing in the world to do is shrug and say something isn't your problem......Changes happen when someone chooses to not take the easy way out.

Mr_Shiftright

Please, doc, I have enough on my plate, as I'm sure the buyer of the new Audi has. Your position as an educator in the automotive tech field is quite different than someone who pays serious money for a new car so that he can get to HIS job and take care of problems in HIS field.

berri

Not really our problem though, except that consumer choice is limited by keeping the Teslas from opening in a lot of states

I'm not sure dealers are going away because most buyers have the issue of a trade in. I would like to see the industry move more toward ordering what you want with a relatively short build and deliver timeframe though.

berri

cardoc - I believe most markets move toward an equilibrium point, sometimes slowly, sometimes rather quickly. For instance, now Jet Blue is experimenting with training some pilots internally instead of recruiting solely from regional carriers or the military because the supply is drying up. If for whatever reason getting dealer techs trained and hired becomes difficult, I'm sure the dealer groups and auto industry will do what it takes, but doubtful before that point.

Mr_Shiftright

The service industry will adjust, just like you did, doc, over the years. The auto manufacturers might go the way of the electronics industry (not fix anything, just warranty it and refurbish it and re-sell it).

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

The service industry will adjust, just like you did, doc, over the years.

Yea, we adjusted over the years and added tools and got training that allowed us keep pace with the technology. But yet everyday we encountered out-dated opinions about what we were supposed to be charging and how the work was alledged to be performed.

Mr_Shiftright

That's really your baby, not the critics. Your industry hasn't done a very good job of explaining what it does and why it does it.

thecardoc3

Explain to who? Let alone how? We didn't control the media. We hand our hands full just trying to do a good day's honest work. You know Mr. Reed of Edmunds had no trouble taking part in that NBC story that told consumers that a shop that "did diagnostics for free" was "more honest" while he was totally ignorant of just what the work had already been demanding of top techs for some twenty plus years. He took part in stories here that praised the pull a code with a cheap tool and toss a part routine that even you now recognize as wrong. When I called him out on the things he was saying he all but disappeared. He was just one example of what a lot of the critics were doing and that is not on us. That is on critics like him who were all about selling the story they wanted to tell and couldn't care less about who they hurt as long as their story sold.

iluvmysephia1

I think car mechanics do an amazing job. When you consider what's riding on top a those tires, they have a heavy responsibility. If you take a look at our throw-away society nowadays, who love ta do the "slow fade" in front of you on the freeway, without a turn signal...I think that good car mechanics are worth their weight in gold.

When you look at the dashcam film and see cops getting brushed by morons who are too stoned to drive, consider how valuable a good, competent, strong car mechanic is. I see it. Coming through clearly. We've become such a spoiled nation, too. We want car mechanics to always jump hoops and cut prices for us. Having said that, I don't like how women are taken advantage of (sometimes) by car mechanics - or, the bosses of car mechanics. But, by and large, yeah, you pay them large amounts hourly to fix or maintain your car. But look again at what's riding on those tires. No, I don't believe we're demigods, each and all of us. But everyone is precious. Everyone has or had a Momma.

And if someone in power doesn't stop those Asians from torturing dogs just because they can...something might happen that will be...unpleasant. But I digress. It's amazing what some people assume is all right.

stever

thecardoc3 said:

Explain to who? Let alone how? We didn't control the media. We hand our hands full just trying to do a good day's honest work. You know Mr. Reed of Edmunds had no trouble taking part in that NBC story that told consumers that a shop that "did diagnostics for free" was "more honest" while he was totally ignorant of just what the work had already been demanding of top techs for some twenty plus years. He took part in stories here that praised the pull a code with a cheap tool and toss a part routine that even you now recognize as wrong. When I called him out on the things he was saying he all but disappeared. He was just one example of what a lot of the critics were doing and that is not on us. That is on critics like him who were all about selling the story they wanted to tell and couldn't care less about who they hurt as long as their story sold.

You aren't on the radio any more Doc?

btw, Phil Reed went to Nerd Wallet a couple of years ago.