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Every black dot on the Neon came true.
Every black or white/empty dot on the Accord came true.
I fared a bit better with the A3; though I did have some of the problems where the dot wasn't full red.
I think they have great reviews on vacuums, the Kenmore really is a good one. They steered us towards Sony Trinitron TV's in the '80's and '90's and those TV's probably have a better "still working" ratio than Big 3 cars from the same time period! I know other people who seemed to buy a new cheap TV every 3 or 4 years, and spent more over the long run.
I do find that they don't always review "top of the line" electronic/audio equipment correctly (if at all, they can only buy so many different brands/models). They are good with your every day stuff. So I'd agree enthusiasts will give you a better idea at the top of the market.
However, the tire reviews seemed to be spot-on with my enthusiast experiences. They even separate Summer/Performance tires from regular tires so the rankings don't get mixed.
My biggest problem with CNET is that they only seem to review brands that market on their website.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I got a notification that Spencer left a review for my shop. He wrote;
"The owner did not even try to help. He flat out hung up on me."
I think this is someone who called about 12:30 today.
He was describing that his car is making some kind of a noise and I offered to take a look at it tomorrow afternoon when I get to the shop. I heard him say that he works till 5pm and can't get there at that time and then nothing, call ended. That's right it was either look at it right then or it wasn't going to be good enough. So for answering the phone which is forwarded to me cell and offering a time that he could bring it in I get a one star review.
I put a response to his one star review but in my heart I wonder really why bother? People that do things like he did aren't customers and I may well have dodged a bullet. But for what it is worth, here is the response.
I'm sorry, but I don't have any idea what you are referring to. Are you the person that called today around 12:30? If so, as I was describing when it appeared that you hung up on me is that we are only open part time and the shop is not open today. Our conversation today abruptly ended right after I offered to see your car tomorrow afternoon around 2:30 and when I asked if that would work for you all I heard was you reply that you work through 5pm and the call suddenly dropped. Just so you know, most of the time I am out of the area teaching continuing educational classes for professional technicians. It's been that way since I had major spinal surgery about two years ago which had a significant impact on my ability to handle many of the more physical challenges of the job. Today I specialize in electronics and diagnostics and do more work for other shops and/or direct referrals from them than regular repair work. If you need advanced diagnostics, that is something that we offer and would be happy to assist when we are available.
The offer to edit the response as I wrote it was nice, but you're missing the big picture. Being forced to respond to it in the first place is no different than having the school yard bully kick you in the shins, take your lunch money and expect you to apologize to him for his trouble. You may not agree with that, but you also are very unlikely to be victimized by someone like that too. You are also unlikely to recognize how consumerism and classic business responses to most complaints has served to train some people to believe that they will be rewarded for that kind of behavior. Just because you don't see it that way for what ever reason does not make that inaccurate. It might not be common, but it is a very real problem that is exploited by "some consumers" at the businesses, and the rest of its customer's expense. As I said, I may have dodged a bullet this time, and every business runs into one of these predators from time to time. If there is no way to genuinely fight back and try to protect ourselves from that, the people in such businesses may well eventually decide that it just isn't worth it and leave everyone standing there wondering what do they do now without us.
I can see someone right now getting ready to write a response and they will try and say don't take it so personal, and to that I'll say that's how clueless (remember, don't take that personal either) some people really are as to just what this career has demanded of techs who have worked this hard to try to master the tasks that we are asked to perform. We took on the challenges of getting more advanced educations, and investing in tools and building the experience through-out our careers at such a significant personal expense that we wouldn't have done it unless it mattered to us as much as it really did. That's a passion for what we do that seems to be all but invisible to so many, but needs to be recognized and appreciated or there is no reason for anyone else to ever try and that's the big picture. I can deal with the Spencer's but you can't make someone else do that especially with all of the other challenges we have to wrestle with. You may think this rant was all about me but I assure you it is not, it's about the next generation of techs that don't deserve to be treated the way we have been.
http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/43473/buick/lesabre/95-buick-lesabre#latest
Weird.
I brought in a new intermittent no start/stall problem. Got a chance to watch him methodically troubleshoot the root cause. Thank goodness that someone understands what it means when I ask you to find the problem and fix it. Repeat customer for life now.
He's been fighting this for several weeks and had a $1900 estimate from a local dealer to replace the throttle body control module, the fuel pump, the PCM, and he couldn't even tell me what else. The failure didn't occur right away, but when it did it set four trouble codes simultaneously. A normal strategy in this case is to pick the easiest of the codes to trouble shoot and go right at it. The easiest of the codes that was setting was the canister purge valve circuit code. The PCM controls the ground connection so when the valve is off, the voltage should be high and when its on it should be low. The code sets when the voltage at the PCM is incorrect for the command. A quick test confirmed there was no voltage to the purge valve, and there was no voltage to the fuse that powers it. There was also no power to the other fuses that controlled the other circuits that were coding, proving a common failure.
The job took a strange turn when service information for 2006 didn't match the vehicle exactly. The 2007 schematic however did replicate the circuit more closely, with the relay location that provided power to all of the fuses involved matching. The time to solve the problem once it occurred was less than ten minutes. Without the problem occurring, there would be no way to accurately prove what the failure really was.
Yelp and other online review stuff probably isn't going away as you say but everyone also has to accept that none of that stuff can result in any increase or improvement in what I, or any other tech/shop like me/mine are already doing. The best they can actually do is just leave us alone, since just about anything else they do can only hurt us and that does not help anyone. Just like Spencer proved he can only be a subtraction from the overall picture and the same goes for the rest of the critics. They actually do nothing to improve the situation, they really only make things worse.
But...but....you're a SPECIALIST! Fix me!
Compare that to an automobile technician's career where the idea that the "cheap fix" is the most treasured by the consumer but adds up to the harder you work, invest and study the less you are supposed to make for having done so. We still have to do the full range of work but to be valued, really valued we have to be faster and cheaper (think flat rate, especially under warranty) and yet still perfect with the results. Leave one fingerprint behind somewhere and suddenly no matter what we actually accomplished it's one star. There is no tolerance for any failure of any kind, and you quite often deal with all kinds of nonsense even if you did achieve perfection in a given service.
You would probably have to experience this first hand to really appreciate what it has been like but try these two scenario's.
1. You get a vehicle with a given problem and you diligently perform the diagnostic routine exactly as you were taught and how manufacturer directs it to be done and you correctly identify the cause of a given failure. For your effort you are told "I don't know what you did all of that testing for, everybody knows that XXX is what was wrong with the car". What's worse is in the end the time that you did invest in testing you don't get paid for.
2. You get an identical vehicle in with the exact same complaint as the first one so you replace XXX and this time it doesn't fix it and the car comes back with the same problem. Now you are told "Why didn't you test and prove that was wrong instead of just throwing a part at it?" It's as if scenario #1 never happened.
It is wrong for the techs to not test and prove what is going on that is causing a given symptom/trouble code. But yet there isn't anywhere that you can look and not find some kind of pressure to not do the diagnostics and just throw parts at the car. Just think about every CarMD add you ever saw, think about every request for help here that was about someone NOT paying a shop/tech to figure out the problem that someone's car was giving them. Think about every time that someone reported some vehicle symptom and someone tried to tell them to change what ever parts to see if that fixed it. Even some parts stores were pushing pull a code, print out a list of "possible" causes and the list of most likely parts to throw at it.
Now picture yourself working hard all day long while trying to let all of that roll off your back, and then spend more time studying each and every night trying to improve your training and skills and you'll have a pretty good idea of what it has taken to get to the top of the trade. Only to have someone who can write, occasionally drive fast on the weekend, hasn't had as much as a screwdriver in their hands in decades, are totally clueless about the tools and routines that have to be deployed to do the work, and they present themselves as the authority on what you should be charging.....
That's exactly the kind of doc you want if you need to be cut on - one specializing in one relatively narrow area of expertise and one that does literally thousands of the same procedure. Expensive, yes, but faster and cheaper in the long run when you get great results. Not counting my 7 eye procedures, we're up to three major (i.e., not outpatient) surgeries in this household.
And you complain about the cost of tools and subscriptions - my newest dentist is a bit of a gadget nut and I got to see my crown being made in his office while I waited. No going back a week later, no temp filling. 3D pics of my teeth too. Fun stuff.
And yeah, every time we need work done, we diligently research the procedures, surgical or treatment options and the doc's credentials and their reviews and read the literature and get recommendations from friends. And we quiz the docs before we hire them, and we get second opinions. And we've certainly looked up medical conditions online and cured ourselves without doctor advice (Epley maneuver, plantar fasciitis , yada yada).
Oh, and when we go to our docs, they bill some humongous amount that our insurance company then whacks down to about 20% of what they try to charge. Just like a car manufacturer does with their dealers.
Not really much different from your work from my point of view.
A repair shop also has to develop an instinct for problem customers, whether that be verbally or with body language. If someone comes into your shop talking about how they were "ripped off" and how "some idiot" couldn't fix his car, you are already in trouble. It's like meeting a woman on a first date who begins to tell you of how she stabbed her ex with a pair of scissors.
Do you have a rule in your state, like in California, where you have to give a written estimate?
California Law:
By law, the auto repair shop must provide a written estimate before doing any work. After you have received the estimate, feel free to go to another shop for a second opinion.
A written estimate must include the total estimated price for parts and labor for a specified repair or service. The estimate must also itemize the parts to be used and the method of repair. The repair shop must stick to the method of repair and the parts listed unless you agree in advance to any changes.
In addition to the total amount, the estimate may itemize the parts to be used and the method of repair. If so, the repair shop must stick to it. They may not legally substitute parts or change the repair method without your consent.
The technician will ask you to sign the estimate/work order, which gives the shop permission to proceed with the work. If you want any of the parts returned to you, be sure to say so when the technician gives you the estimate.
Before you sign, be sure you understand the work the technician will do. Your signature means you agree to pay for the repairs up to the amount specified. Do not sign a blank work order.
Newer cars often need a diagnosis before repairs can be done. A diagnosis uses procedures established by the auto manufacturer to determine the cause of the malfunction. The estimate may cover the cost of the diagnosis alone, or the cost of diagnosis and repair.
If some of the work will be done at a different shop, it must be noted on the written estimate or work order. For example, auto body shops sometimes have auto glass shops replace damaged windshields. If so, the shop must get your permission, unless you cannot reasonably be notified.
Pa. Is redesigning it's emissions program, and part of the restructuring is going to follow an outline that I wrote some ten years ago and some of it is going to repeat the same old mistakes of previous versions. Instead of having a system where computers are used to make the job easier and have it eliminate mistakes the program is being deliberately written to allow specific errors to happen so that they can be caught and prosecuted. That way Parsons has the appearance of having control and oversight of the program. It's kind of like if they don't catch somebody doing something wrong, then they aren't doing their jobs. If that's not bad enough the program is going to require that the shops buy yet another new emissions machine with the estimates again being in the $6000-$9000 range. All they really need for the new program is for a shop to have an internet capable PC or laptop, the peripherals required to connect to the car's ALDL and test the gas cap and an external hard drive or memory stick for data storage/recovery. The cost should be less than $600 for a new shop as long as they already have a PC and internet support.
The last generation of machines which will expire and have to be replaced some time next year were supposed to also allow the shop to use the machine as a scan tool for diagnostics and be able to access the net (dial-up) to be used as a shop computer for service information. Neither of those extra capabilities ever lived up to the original promises. Diagnostics amounted to retrieving monitor readiness data, pulling and clearing codes. Internet capabilities again were limited to dial-up (Windows 98) and updates and anti-virus software could not be installed because of the state's system restrictions. That meant if you even tried to use it on the net it filled up with all kinds of garbage and the shops were powerless to do anything about it.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
How do the assumptions address the core issue?
Is it more important to be able to lay blame, or should more energy be put towards dealing with the fundamental reasons why things like this occur?
After all. it's not like staggered tire setups are all that rare anymore.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So have you ever realized when you got something that you definitely didn't pay for? Contrary to the stereotype many automotive service customers often receive much more then they actually paid for and that is measured by customarily unpaid hours when a technician has to solve a complicated issue. The GMC Envoy referenced earlier with the Google review is a fine example of what has been going on behind the scenes that everyone needs to learn about.
When K.B. brought his Envoy in it would randomly quit and not restart. When that happened a number of warning lights would come on the dash and the vehicle would set numerous codes including codes referencing the throttle body control system and stabilitrak system among others. He drove it to the shop and allowed it to sit for a period of time that would usually result in the problem occurring. Unfortunately the vehicle restarted and ran normally. At this point it was still prudent to pull codes and take a good look at system data to get a baseline understanding of the vehicles current condition. Codes P0443, P0449, P0689, P1516, P1634, P2101, P2534 were all historical with the P0449 Canister Vent solenoid circuit code current. Otherwise there was nothing else noteworthy observed. At this point there could be no real progress made without the problem occurring.
I had several other vehicle problems to investigate at the same time, so it was time to concentrate on work that could be completed while patiently waiting for a failure event to occur. K.B. elected to leave the vehicle and arranged for a ride but in the mean time he went about randomly restarting the Envoy in the hope that it would act up. As it usually is, patience was soon rewarded and the stall no-start occurred.
Since no real diagnostics had ever been done this no-start was treated exactly the same as any other and that is prove what is working and what is not. The fuel pump was turning on and providing 65psi fuel pressure, but there was neither spark nor fuel injector pulse. Connecting the scan tool showed that about half of the previously listed codes were now current failures. There was now a chance to narrow the focus and since there were several codes active its up to the technicians discretion which circuit to troubleshoot first and the easiest of all of them was the P0443, canister purge solenoid circuit. The schematic showed the purge valve gets power from fuse #26 in the under hood fuse block and the PCM controls the ground circuit for it. Testing for power to the purge solenoid showed 0v, testing for power to fuse #26 showed it dead, as well as fuses #23, #31, #54, #55, #56.
Using a fused jumper and applying power to the pink wire at the purge valve showed power was then available to each of the fuses that were previously dead. Reaching in the window to crank the engine it fired right up. Disconnecting the jumper, the engine died again. The diagnosis at this point was the powertrain control relay was not powering up the circuits that relied on it. This is exactly what K.B. saw be confirmed in about five minutes. What he didn't see is just what it took to prove exactly what was wrong this time which required several failure events occurring as testing points were chosen and measured in order to prove the exact failure. This is where the proof that many vehicle owners have gotten much that they didn't pay for will be revealed. Keep in mind even this work is something that done by anyone else would likely earn them an entire months income, if not more.
Lots of times you pay a lot and don't "Get What You Pay For".
(re " K.B. elected to leave the vehicle and arranged for a ride but in the mean time he went about randomly restarting the Envoy in the hope that it would act up. As it usually is, patience was soon rewarded and the stall no-start occurred.", did you mean you would randomly restart the Envoy in the shop?)
The approach to any random electrical failure requires the technician to study the circuit and identify the potential faults that could result in the symptom(s) as observed. In the case of this Envoy losing power output from the powertrain control relay caused the stall, no-start and was generating numerous trouble codes. K.B. had initially reported many more codes as being set than were currently observed, the fact that previous attempts to diagnose and repair this had been undertaken likely accounted for the fact that a number of them had been cleared and had not reset at this point. The only thing to do at this point is concentrate on exactly what could be proven. Anything beyond that is out of the technicians control and does not equal being a mistake even if the car does have to come back for additional repairs.
Testing at this point needed to concentrate on why the relay wasn't powering the circuits that it is responsible for. With any relay controlled circuit there are essentially two sets of possible failures, the control side or the controlled side. Once it is determined which one of them is breaking down then the diagnostics shift to prove if the failure is the supply side, output side or load and then finally exactly why and where. With a relay that is mounted in a fuse block assembly a common routine is to install a pedestal that provides test points with the relay active as seen in this picture.
It would be very easy for someone to go after this confirmed issue right now, however experience has taught a hard lesson. Until the failure is truly associated to "THE" problem, it is only "A" problem. This is also one of the points where we get into the things that the consumer hasn't been paying for. When doing diagnostics manufacturers taught that the techs needed to follow the trouble trees that they produced. Trouble trees are limited to testing circuits for powers, grounds, opens and incorrect resistance values. The majority of these tests are done with the circuit being disabled for testing and in the event that there is a hard circuit failure sufficient.
Trouble trees do not work for random or intermittent failures unless the circuit stays dead long enough to permit it. Meanwhile the effort of disconnecting portions of the circuit to do any testing always has the specter of accidently disturbing the failure and restoring the circuit before the failure is identified. These two factors often lead to misdiagnosis again because a trouble tree cannot account for the characteristics of a circuit changing in the middle of testing. While techs got the majority of blame for the failures that would naturally occur with such a system outside pressures compounded the problem even more. Each of these could turn into their own essays but for now lets just leave them at titles.
A tech spends time testing and proving exactly what is wrong only to be told 'I don't know what you did all of that testing for, everyone knew that XXXX was wrong with the car".
Which led to a tech not testing the next time and "IF" the same repair as the previous example turned around and failed to solve a vehicle problem then he/she was told "Why didn't you test anything?"
People on the outside made this problem even worse when companies like CarMd tried to preach that shops who were charging for diagnostics were ripping off consumers when all someone had to do was pull a code and that told them what was wrong with the car. Shops in turn often pressured the techs to try to go too fast by failing to pay them for diagnostics correctly if at all. Meanwhile top techs would be dealing with problems like this Envoy unpaid for their time and often denigrated for even trying. Seeing statements like "He's an ASE Master Technician and he can't fix a sandwich" are part of that picture. Other insults such as "You said you were a certified master technician, why don't you know what is wrong with that car?" were common, heck are still common occurrences today. That's one of the greatest myths about the work that diagnostic technicians do, that we somehow know what's wrong with a car, or that anyone does from the symptom alone. The greatest myth of all is that if someone would happen to manage to guess a solution to a problem correctly that it confirms the validity of the attempt and discredits someone taking a patient, disciplined approach. The end does not always justify the means and the voltage drop for the relay control in this Envoy's PCM is the perfect trap to prove just that point.
That is the voltage drop on the ground side of the relay control circuit. Testing needs to prove if the PCM itself is simply not turning the relay on, or if the circuit failed in between. By setting test points in advance of the failure this is information that can be gathered pretty easily. Using a testlight to see if the computer was trying to turn the relay on or not during the failure this information was obtained.
This step proved that the failure that brought the car in the door wasn't inside the PCM no matter what else was going on. Testing now shifts to confirming the wiring integrity as well as the connections at the PCM as well as the fuse block. These steps each lead to their own challenges since the fuse block connections are not accessible with the fuse block in the car and the circuits live. Normal testing such as steps directed by what the manufacturer would have a technician perform, when following a trouble tree will be displayed in the next few photos.