A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

Mr_Shiftright

My friend had a message for all his employers. "When a customer comes in with a problem and presents it to you, you own that problem until you can take it to someone who can help them, if you can't. Never pass the buck or say you don't know or it's not your job".

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

It overheats very very slowly, so its kinda tough to tell. For example, driving to my dad's last week, it was locked in at 180 for most of the trip (20 mins). When I stopped for drivethru coffee and was waiting in line, it started creeping up. Got to about 195 before I was on the move again, but it did not go back down to 180. Stayed up there till I got to his house. On the way home that evening, it was pushing 210 at times. When I was in my garage idling yesterday, it got up to 190-195 before I shut it down. That was maybe 10 minutes of idling with the electric fan off.

The first thing to confirm is if the gage is accurate. Gage accuracy can be impacted by ground circuits between the engine and body. While the temperature probe is a valuable tool it takes the average temperature of everything that is in front of it. There is a better tool for this kind of testing now, http://www.thermal.com/ OR http://www.flir.com/store/ A plausible condition could have just the portion of the engine where the temperature sensor is located could be generating higher temperatures than the rest of the engine. With the infrared camera, local variances can be detected. As far as the actual temperatures go there are multiple variables at play and they have to be considered dynamically. We can check a few specifics first but need to then quickly move onto figuring out just how much heat we are really dealing with. First question, what is the concentration of the engine coolant to water? Is it 50/50 or is it higher ? (more antifreeze than water) Engine coolants are poor conductors of heat compared to water. While the coolant prevents freezing and raises the boiling point, higher concentrations can cause localized overheating since it doesn't conduct heat as easily as water does. What brand and specification coolant is in the system? Some coolants are very good at preventing cavitation erosion and others can be very poor at it. If cavitation is or has been occurring it could quickly erode the vanes on the water pump reducing flow. High silicate coolants can build protection from cavitation very quickly. A lot of newer coolants (dexcool / G34, G05 Ford and most universals, G12 VW, G30 non dexcool orange like Chrysler some Ford, G40 Asians, G48, Euro's among others) can take a thousand miles to build a protective layer and could see the pump fail before that occurs. Water wetters are not a good idea with cooling systems that have differing metals in them even if they say that they help fight electrolysis. Watter wetters can reduce a coolants ability to resist cavitation. If you want to see how prone a given system might be to suffering cavitation issues then right after starting the engine cold, watch the lower hose as the engine is revved up to about 3,000rpm. If the lower hose starts to compress indicating the pump is putting it into a vacuum then you have a system where cavitation erosion is much more likely to occur. If the coolant isn't moving fast enough that again can lead to overheating but it will have a set of symptoms that are very predictable. Low engine loads will produce less heat and the system might be able to handle that heat load. Higher engine loads will usually produce enough heat to see the engine temperature start climbing. Going back down to a low load will usually see the temperature start to move back down. You mentioned that you checked the timing. Did you also test the vacuum (if used) and mechanical advance mechanisms? You may have checked the base timing, but if the springs are worn out for the mechanical advance or the mechanical advance ha seized, or if the vacuum advance (if used) has failed then the timing will be retarded at higher rpms and at cruise. Late timing will cause the engine to run hot. Total advance should be close to 30-36 degrees BTC by 2500rpm no load. Honda's mention of the fan shroud might be on the right track, but you only need the fan shroud while the fan is the primary means of getting air to flow through the radiator. Similar to poor flow of coolant, poor airflow will produce very similar heating characteristics. So the next consideration is, what about the rest of the air deflectors and dams? Are the side seals in place so that air cannot flow around the radiator and then under the hood? Did this car orignally use any fillers below the radiator extending back towards the engine? Once you are going over about 20mph there should be more air flowing through the radiator than a cooling fan can move. When everything else has come up with no trouble found directed airflow through the radiator becomes high on the list of considerations. 

That is quite the comprehensive post. Thanks for taking the time, Doc. Lemme see if I can answer all this.

1. I can only confirm the gauge is new. Is it accurate? I don't know. But I do know the rad will let loose of its precious fluid when it goes over the 230 mark and I park it. So it is definitely has overheated.

2. Coolant is good ole Zerex original green mixed 50/50 with filtered water. Well, it was until today. Today I switched to 75/25 water/coolant and threw in a bottle of royal purple Ice.

3. I put on stainless hoses so I can't watch for any hose flex.

4. Timing is not fully marked but I'm pretty much dead on 15 BTDC at idle and 35-40 BTDC at 2500rpms.

5. I don't know if there were any damns under the car originally. Good question. Did they think of such things in 1967?

changed the oil and thermostat and refilled everything (put in 20w50 high zinc Valvoline racing oil). Idled it in the driveway for probably 15 mins or so. Gauge read 190 before I flipped on the electric fan. Temp did not decrease at all. Stayed locked at 190 for several more minutes before I turned it off. I do want to do some more work on the shroud and then I guess I'll try driving it and see what happens.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

That is quite the comprehensive post. Thanks for taking the time, Doc. Lemme see if I can answer all this.

Actually this is just the basics for an overheating condition. The rest of the diagnostics branch out from the observations made with these points in mind.

qbrozen said:

1. I can only confirm the gauge is new. Is it accurate? I don't know. But I do know the rad will let loose of its precious fluid when it goes over the 230 mark and I park it. So it is definitely has overheated.

Coolant expanding and being pushed out after the engine is shut off isn't abnormal. The engine coolant temperature does rise after shut-down since it is no longer flowing. This does raise the possibility of restricted flow inside the engine. Are you using a fluid recovery bottle? Are you over filling the system? Older vehicles typically allowed for expansion with an oversized top tank. The proper full level might be 1-1.5 inches below the fill neck cold and about a half an inch below when hot.

qbrozen said:

2.Coolant is good ole Zerex original green mixed 50/50 with filtered water. Well, it was until today. Today I switched to 75/25 water/coolant and threw in a bottle of royal purple Ice.

That makes this a moving target. While it will conduct heat better, it will also boil at a lower temperature. A 50% mix boils at about 224F and as high as 265F at 15psi pressure. 25% drops that to about 217F and 235F at 15psi.

qbrozen said:

3. I put on stainless hoses so I can't watch for any hose flex.

qbrozen said:

4. Timing is not fully marked but I'm pretty much dead on 15 BTDC at idle and 35-40 BTDC at 2500rpms.

Does it ever ping on acceleration? That's actually over advanced if it is accurate. Have you confirmed that the timing mark is accurate? Over advanced won't cause it to over heat, but if the mark is wrong it might not be as advanced as you think it is, which is why it would help to know if it pings or not.

qbrozen said:

5. I don't know if there were any damns under the car originally. Good question. Did they think of such things in 1967?

Yes they did. It's not uncommon for me to find someone has done a restoration and left holes in the radiator support that allow airflow around the radiator which results in an engine running hotter on the highway than it really should be.
It's also common to find obstructions to the airflow that should be directed towards the radiator and of course for a lower air dam to be missing which is supposed to create a low pressure area behind the radiator and assist the air in flowing through.

qbrozen said:

Changed the oil and thermostat and refilled everything (put in 20w50 high zinc Valvoline racing oil). Idled it in the driveway for probably 15 mins or so. Gauge read 190 before I flipped on the electric fan. Temp did not decrease at all. Stayed locked at 190 for several more minutes before I turned it off. I do want to do some more work on the shroud and then I guess I'll try driving it and see what happens.

Did you know that motor oil is also responsible for cooling parts of the engine? Plus the harder the engine has to work the more heat it will generate? While its not a primary cause engine oil that is thicker than the engine was designed for will not cool as well as thinner oil and will cause extra load just to pump it, even if it is dumped back to the pan by the pressure relief valve.

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

Did you know that motor oil is also responsible for cooling parts of the engine? Plus the harder the engine has to work the more heat it will generate? While its not a primary cause engine oil that is thicker than the engine was designed for will not cool as well as thinner oil and will cause extra load just to pump it, even if it is dumped back to the pan by the pressure relief valve.

Yes, which is why I wanted to change it. I found the 20/50 racing oil was touted by many owners to be the best choice, so that's what I went with.

thecardoc3 said:

Coolant expanding and being pushed out after the engine is shut off isn't abnormal. The engine coolant temperature does rise after shut-down since it is no longer flowing. This does raise the possibility of restricted flow inside the engine. Are you using a fluid recovery bottle? Are you over filling the system? Older vehicles typically allowed for expansion with an oversized top tank. The proper full level might be 1-1.5 inches below the fill neck cold and about a half an inch below when hot.

Oh, its not just an expansion amount, it is a good gallon or more. Or at least it WAS when it happened a couple of time. Since putting in the aluminum rad, it has not done that.

Thanks for the tip about spaces around the radiator support. I do have that now due to the new radiator. I can close it up, BUT will that actually push more air through the radiator? I was vaguely toying with the idea of putting in baffles to actually direct the air rather than just block it. Any thoughts on that?

Mr_Shiftright

You mean PULL more air through the radiator, right?

I forgot--are you running an electric cooling fan in addition or not?

And is the top of your shroud open?

qbrozen

I mean like putting air foils (if I'm using that term correctly) behind the grille that point the airflow through the rad.

Yes, fixed fan behind the radiator and electric pusher in front of the AC condensor.

Yes, top of shroud is open, which is one of those things I'm going to fix. I have the measurements and just need to get to cuttin.

thecardoc3

Jalopnik picks up on the Chicago mechanics strike and Napleton Cadillac. https://jalopnik.com/striking-mechanics-say-dealership-left-their-tools-out-1797548330

Mr_Shiftright

It would be interesting to know how the demand for a 40-hour work week became the primary issue. Were mechanics forced to work longer hours and if so, were they paid or not paid extra?

thecardoc3

Typical abuses of flat rate. The forty hour guarantee makes it less likely that the shop would over staff and have the techs running out of work 

andres3

roadburner said:

Yesterday we had a lady come in with almost totally worn out RFTs on her leased F10 5er; we quoted her a price on the OEM Bridgestone all season rubber but she wanted to shop around. That's understandable, as we aren't the cheapest shop in town. That said, she later emails us and tells us she went to XYZ tire store and they told her, "Oh yeah, we gots dozens of tires that will fit." I went to Tire Rack's web site and did a search for the proper size all-season RFTs with the same or higher speed rating and found a total of seven tires. It makes you wonder what brand and quality those "dozens of tires" are...

Is there anything in the lease language that would prevent someone from getting the cheapest Chinese tires money can buy for a $65K BMW ?

roadburner

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

Yesterday we had a lady come in with almost totally worn out RFTs on her leased F10 5er; we quoted her a price on the OEM Bridgestone all season rubber but she wanted to shop around. That's understandable, as we aren't the cheapest shop in town. That said, she later emails us and tells us she went to XYZ tire store and they told her, "Oh yeah, we gots dozens of tires that will fit." I went to Tire Rack's web site and did a search for the proper size all-season RFTs with the same or higher speed rating and found a total of seven tires. It makes you wonder what brand and quality those "dozens of tires" are...

Is there anything in the lease language that would prevent someone from getting the cheapest Chinese tires money can buy for a $65K BMW ?

Yes they have to be OEM equivalent of the same speed rating and type- so... if it came with V rated all-season RFTs that what it has to have on it. At our store we don't require BMW Star tires but if it came with Bridgestones I'd be okay with Continental, Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli, or Yokohamas. Off-brand Chinese "Extra Super Premium Ditchfinders"? No way...

thecardoc3

Harbor Freight has been come a long way since it's early days. You still have to be careful what you choose to buy but here is one item that is on my list. I need to replace my floor jack, again. I've owned four of them through the years but with slowing down I didn't replace my MATCO 3 ton jack when it failed and the tool man couldn't find me parts to repair it. As stated in this link, Snap-On wants $655 for their jack and Harbor Freight's is under $200. But is the cheaper one good enough? Harbor Freight says that it is in direct advertising. Snap-On took offense to that and sued. Here is where that stands right now.

https://www.biztimes.com/2017/industries/law/snap-on-harbor-freight-settle-floor-jack-case/

Mr_Shiftright

I think people need to understand that "made in China" doesn't necessarily mean "cheap". You can get a part or tool made to just about any specification you want, but you'll have to pay for it. This, of course, is what many parts sellers want to avoid. They want the price edge.

The play to "patriotism" is particularly ironic in this case. The USA's manufacturing industry has been declining for decades and still is. That's because corporations are off-shoring and they aren't about to stop doing it either.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think people need to understand that "made in China" doesn't necessarily mean "cheap". You can get a part or tool made to just about any specification you want, but you'll have to pay for it. This, of course, is what many parts sellers want to avoid. They want the price edge.

The play to "patriotism" is particularly ironic in this case. The USA's manufacturing industry has been declining for decades and still is. That's because corporations are off-shoring and they aren't about to stop doing it either.

I have noticed a trend to use "China" to make the cheapest versions of an item though. You'll also see other Asian countries contribute (Tawain, Malaysia) to these lower end lines, as well as Mexico now.

When you go upscale, perhaps due to the economics, companies will choose to make higher end versions of a product in Japan, USA, Canada, and/or Europe/Italy. Not always, but I think I've noticed a trend.

Sunglasses, Wheels, tires, cars (and car parts), and electronics is where I've noticed this trend most. I'd be suspicious of any Chinese metal/steel product like brake rotors or wheels (aluminum/alloy).

Mr_Shiftright

Well if Harbor Freight's claim that their jack parts are made in the same factory as Snap-On's, then there's no reason for suspicion in that case.

qbrozen

I wanted to get a chance to do everything before reporting back, but who knows when I'll get the time to, so giving an update now.

I drove the car yesterday for a bit. Keeps cool for quite a while, but then the temp starts rising the more you drive it. Under load, it will climb, cruising along on level ground or downhill will bring the temp back to about 190. Even when pushing it a bit, it did not cross about 210, though. So not too bad. I am going to work more on the shroud and gaps around the radiator.

When heated up, however, I am getting a bit of a "diesel sound" under load. I'm thinking I need to back off the timing a bit. Hopefully that's what it is. Also is hard to start when hot.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

When heated up, however, I am getting a bit of a "diesel sound" under load. I'm thinking I need to back off the timing a bit. Hopefully that's what it is. Also is hard to start when hot.

The "diesel" sound is likely pinging which would indicate that the timing as you described is over advanced. Being hard to start, "kicking back" is another typical symptom of over advanced timing.

Can you upload photos of the radiator and condenser? Multiple angles if possible from in front, behind facing forward, left and right sides as well as from below.

thecardoc3

Here is another trick. Measure the temperatures of the top radiator tank and the bottom radiator tanks when the engine is at normal operating temperature and then when it starts getting hot. Report those along with the engine temperature sensor reported temperature.

Try repeating the test with the cooling fan running constantly.

What you are looking for is either an insufficient or an excessive temperature drop from the top to the bottom of the radiator.

If the temperature is dropping only about ten degrees or less we are looking at an airflow issue. If it is dropping more than thirty degrees we are looking at a coolant flow issue. Comparing normal operating temperature to the over heat condition will help to prove if there is a significant change in the cooling system performance.

It would also help to see exactly what the temperature of the coolant is when the thermostat first opens.

qbrozen

thanks, doc. will see what I can do tonight.

Mr_Shiftright

So there's no evidence of rust in the coolant?

thecardoc3

From the iATN forums....https://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/garage-rehab/

Time will tell but most of the guys knowing what it takes to run a shop, comparing this to the Bar Make over series and seeing the clip and who is running it,,,,, well,,,,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9_g1NuoT6s

andres3

My mechanic and I decided that my best course of action was indeed new front rotors for new front brake pads at 15,300 miles. Given my spirited driving which includes track time, this was a consideration.

EBC Yellow-Stuff pads, Zimmerman Rotors (OEM basically), Stainless steel brake lines, and Motul RBF 600 fluid should get me going for a good while in a very spirited (and safe) manner. The rear rotors shall stay for another round of abuse.

He made this recommendation from "eyeballing it" which probably isn't as accurate as a measurement down to 1/2 MM, but I trust him.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

So there's no evidence of rust in the coolant?

Nope. I even disconnected the rad and flushed the block with a garden hose. What came out was perfectly clean. I was pleasantly surprised.

Mr_Shiftright

That's good. I have heard of engine block "hot spots".

What kind of fan is on the car. Is it some modern type or OEM steel?

roadburner

qbrozen said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

So there's no evidence of rust in the coolant?

Nope. I even disconnected the rad and flushed the block with a garden hose. What came out was perfectly clean. I was pleasantly surprised.

I know a few people who swear by the Mercedes Citric Acid radiator flush, but it doesn't sound like that's an issue with your car.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's good. I have heard of engine block "hot spots".

What kind of fan is on the car. Is it some modern type or OEM steel?

the fixed fan is OEM steel. The electric pusher is all plastic 16" 3000 CFM.

Mr_Shiftright

That steel fan will cost you 7 to 10 HP says Engine Masters.

xwesx

Doc: I'm curious about that Frontier. Did you get it sorted out?

thecardoc3

Waiting on the used car dealer that bought it to allow me to take the next step. After correcting the harness misconnection and replacing the IPDM, operation of the PCM was achieved without external circuit bypassing. Also of note most of the other systems that previously were noted as inoperative such as windshield wiper operation have been restored. (Notable exception to that is the driver's window)

At this point, the PCM is now working and it is coding for the loss of the high speed CAN communication, and that the voltage range of the signal is incorrect. Testing the communication signals with the PICO scope and comparing that signal at both the ALDL and the PCM connector showed that the voltage signals were correct and the PICO scope was able to decode the serial data. That means that the data is there but the PCM cannot read it. The reason that the PCM can communicate with the scan tool is because it is using the Keyword 2000 network and not the high speed CAN. It needs a new PCM and the dealer is trying to find one.

Further testing on one of the other modules that were still missing on the data bus showed no CAN communication present at the ABS module. That portion of the circuit is open somewhere. Nissan has done a poor job of describing the physical architecture of the wiring that creates the data bus which means I will have to get that information by hand. There are options, but each choice isn't a perfect one and has potential traps lurking. On one hand I could run a bypass and rebuild the circuit that way. On the other I spend the time to locate and repair the actual physical failure of that part of the circuit. Either way that circuit has to be restored just to prove if the ABS module is OK or not. Then depending on how the system behaves and what failures are discovered to still be present one of them will need to be concentrated on next. That's the potential trap for just bypassing the communication circuit, I could make the ABS work (or not) and still have to ferret out the actual communication circuit failure anyway.

There are still the issues that the transmission control module fuse fails the moment that the system powers up, plus the BCM is still setting the incorrect ignition switch input signal error.

We may never know how the car reportedly suddenly developed so many problems. Maybe some of these have been caused by some type of a servicing error but the likelihood that this was damaged by a lightning strike is very high. Some modules inside the car are confirmed to be OK except for the BCM, modules outside of the interior (under hood) are compromised.

thecardoc3

A shop called earlier this week about a 2011 Lincoln MKX 3.7l. The vehicle reportedly had an engine failure and the symptom included engine misfires on cylinder #4. After the engine was replaced the vehicle ran normally with no issues, however the customer returned about a week later reporting a check engine light that started flashing and then stayed on. P0304, cylinder #4 was again being reported as misfiring.

The shop drove the car and could not get it to act up.

This is one of the problems that only gets worse when shops try to be too cheap and don't charge correctly for and therefore take a disciplined approach to diagnostics each and every time. Like it or not it goes hand in hand with every advertisement that ever painted shops that charge for diagnostics as anything other than professionals taking the right approach. Often times a shop might charge something, but not sufficiently to allow the techs to really thrive and be comfortable when things can be difficult to figure out. That's almost worse than not charging at all. Not charging enough as well as not charging at all serves to erode the technicians skills to the point that they can fail even when something should be easy.

Instead of taking a solid routine and investigating this car they decided to simply send it to me. While that may be good for me, it's bad for the trade and consumers in the long run. They don't charge correctly for diagnostics which serves to pull pricing down for all of the shops around them and that in turn makes their weakness spread. The other shops around them lose potential because of suppressed pricing and that ultimately is reflected in wages, benefits and above all continued educational training for every technician in the area.

So the Lincoln? Pulling freeze frame data showed that the misfire occurred at 100% throttle at 5300 rpm. Capturing data on a road test confirmed good fuel supply and that the PCM was not having any trouble controlling the air/fuel ratio. With only one cylinder being flagged as misfiring it either had to be a mechanical issue or else spark. The misfire could not be felt but the light started flashing indicting that the PCM was seeing something that it didn't like.

Back at the shop, pulling the coil and using a spark tester that requires 25K volts to fire confirmed that good spark was available to 3800 rpm. The engine controls won't permit the engine to rev any higher than that in park with no load. It also won't permit brake torqueing against the transmission to simulate engine load which means the system effectively blocked any attempts to get the misfire occur with the vehicle in the bay. This could be some kind of an issue that is preventing that cylinder from breathing correctly at high speed and high engine load. Testing might require installing the pressure transducer and driving this in order to record the pressure waveform out on the road, but there was still one other thing to look at before I do that.

Can you see it with this magnification?




So the question now is. "Is the spark plug "The" problem or just "A" problem? "

What does this car need right now?

qbrozen

If they swapped out the entire engine and kept the original plug, they should not be in the repair business.

And, yes, I can see the ceramic is cracked, if that is the question regarding magnification.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

If they swapped out the entire engine and kept the original plug, they should not be in the repair business.

I guess I should note that they are AAA approved and praised for their prices....

qbrozen said:

And, yes, I can see the ceramic is cracked, if that is the question regarding magnification.

The plug was in the engine they installed. They never touched them.

qbrozen

So that's a NEW plug?? I'm a bit confused. Was this a used engine? The odds would have to be astronomical at having a misfire on cyl 4 before and then swap in an engine that already had a cracked plug. Unless something is causing the plugs to crack. Hmmmm...

thecardoc3

Astronomical or not, that is the plug that came with the used engine and just happened to be in cylinder #4. The same cylinder that was reporting misfires before the engine was replaced.

This is one of the reasons that I always preach that the idea of looking back over your work when something goes wrong with a repair is actually the wrong approach. The right thing to do is close your eyes, take a deep breath and forget everything you know about the vehicle and now test with the same routine that you would use for any other car that just came in the door with the symptom being described.

The disciplined routine goes straight at the problem no matter what the circumstances causing it are. Starting with a guess that maybe it was something over looked or done incorrectly makes someone start the routine at an unconventional point and that adds a variable that is difficult to account for which is why it usually fails.

thecardoc3

Which BTW is a little insight as to how I would approach your overheating situation.

roadburner

Carbon track on the plug?

thecardoc3

Yeah part of it. The small carbon blotch below the one "r" in Motorcraft is right at the bottom of the crack visible at the top of the porcelain.

thecardoc3

Lets see if this works.

thecardoc3

Yeah, that worked nicely.

Now what if I told you finding that doesn't equal "the problem" being diagnosed yet........

At this point it only "might be".

Mr_Shiftright

You'll probably laugh at this, but what if you pulled off the spark plug insulating rubber and just had the plug in there with the connector--then you turn out all the lights, run the engine and look for a spark jump along in ceramic.

I'd probably take the lazy man's way out and put in new plugs all around and take 'er out on the road for a rigorous road test.

qbrozen

So you are telling me this shop got a used engine and threw it in without doing a damned thing to it? Wow. Can you share the shop name so people here know to never go there? 

I mean, sure, replacing the engine for a misfire was stupid enough, but...good grief, man.

Mr_Shiftright

You see some crazy stuff if you work in the repair biz long enough. Did I tell you about the Porsche turbo engine that my friend's shop opened up a few years ago that has vice-grip scars on all the bearing caps?

Yikes.

andres3

Interesting conundrum with my Audi in the shop bay right now over the weekend, and on into Tuesday; most likely Wednesday when it'll be ready for pickup on a brake job.

The '16 Audi TTS is not only a unicorn, it is a rare unicorn. This causes part suppliers and websites to make mistakes and put in invalid data entry as to what "fits" my car.

I know my mechanic/shop owner did his due diligence when ordering the OEM front rotors. He told the guy, I'll feel more comfortable if you run the VIN number at least twice. I'm told the response on the phone was that the TTS only has one size, one part, one part number, and these will fit. Parts arrive friday, they disassemble the car, and the rotors are about 1" smaller than stock OEM.

Shop owner calls me stating my original pads were done and dead, but more importantly, who's going to pay to put the car back together again, and then put on the new correct pads and rotors when they arrive Tues/Wed?

He said the part supplier already didn't want to give a refund (but a "credit"). Shop owner pre-empted that by doing a stop-payment on the check to the supplier (you can't send the wrong parts and expect payment).

Also, the EBC Yellow stuff pads apparently are only made in a size that fits my rear (and I'm sure many other sizes) but nothing that'll fit the front! This came from somewhere else a long time ago. It is down to only OEM pads for the front; ($128, very reasonable). The front rotors are only available from Audi (rare 338 x 30 mm size apparently), and they gouge you for the OEM; $500 for the pair on ECS tuning.com. Tire rack has nothing for my front brake system, so I"m positive the problem isn't that wrong parts were sent, but that they don't exist!

Who should eat it? Theoretically, the parts supplier should probably kick in. For sure a refund should be issued (no future credits). I wasn't buying parts for a random old 2003 Audi, this was specifically for my car, a '16 TTS.

I told him I didn't absolutely need my car, nor was I going to drive it spiritedly again knowing the original pads got 99.5% of their use already. So it'll stay on a rack taking up space (but not labor) until the right parts arrive.

I don't want anyone to incur labor expense if not necessary. But, I do feel I"m doing someone a small favor.

thecardoc3

For import parts like that a very reliable source to check is Worldpac.

http://www.worldpac.com/parts/#parts

Mr_Shiftright

Count your blessings. Some ceramic brake rotors for some Porsche are $4800 each.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

So you are telling me this shop got a used engine and threw it in without doing a damned thing to it? Wow.

This is the little game that I call "Moving The Finish Line." It is played by taking information about a problem that couldn't possibly have be known in advance and using it to suggest that something like changing the plugs should have been done.

Newton's law. For every action there is a reaction.....

Picture this repair being quoted by two different shops. One quotes a price for and if they get the job to just install the engine. The other quotes a price suggesting to also replacing a number of parts at an additional cost without any proof that any of it needs to be done. Which one gets to do the work? Why? This is the first problem that arises when price is so important to deciding whether or not to have work done.

So then we have this one. Imagine someone saying to replace the plugs without proof that there is a problem with them. Or maybe they say pull a couple and see what they look like. Here are the other five plugs that are just fine.


What would someone else say about any shop or tech that recommended replacing those with no known symptoms? Pull any two in that photo and there would be no reason to justify the work. So five lugs were fine and one was not. It would come down to luck to pull the bad plug for inspection which BTW means you have to remove the upper intake to reach the rear bank even with the engine on a stand.

Here are the upper intake manifold, throttle body and the coils removed form the engine.


Here is the engine during the repair. The light blue arrows are pointing to the spark plug tubes. To access the plugs you have to work in between the valve cover and the bottom of the cowl.

qbrozen said:

Can you share the shop name so people here know to never go there? I mean, sure, replacing the engine for a misfire was stupid enough, but...good grief, man.

No where has anyone said that they replaced the engine for the misfire. It was stated that it had a mechanical failure (FWIW the timing chain failed) and showed misfires on cylinder #4. It was nothing more than a coincidence that both engines demonstrated misfires on the same cylinder. Where the shop got into trouble was starting out by assuming that one had anything to do with the other instead of simply just proving what was going on right now.

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

So you are telling me this shop got a used engine and threw it in without doing a damned thing to it? Wow.

This is the little game that I call "Moving The Finish Line." It is played by taking information about a problem that couldn't possibly have be known in advance and using it to suggest that something like changing the plugs should have been done. Newton's law. For every action there is a reaction..... Picture this repair being quoted by two different shops. One quotes a price for and if they get the job to just install the engine. The other quotes a price suggesting to also replacing a number of parts at an additional cost without any proof that any of it needs to be done. Which one gets to do the work? Why? This is the first problem that arises when price is so important to deciding whether or not to have work done. So then we have this one. Imagine someone saying to replace the plugs without proof that there is a problem with them. Or maybe they say pull a couple and see what they look like. Here are the other five plugs that are just fine. What would someone else say about any shop or tech that recommended replacing those with no known symptoms? Pull any two in that photo and there would be no reason to justify the work. So five lugs were fine and one was not. It would come down to luck to pull the bad plug for inspection which BTW means you have to remove the upper intake to reach the rear bank even with the engine on a stand. Here are the upper intake manifold, throttle body and the coils removed form the engine. Here is the engine during the repair. The light blue arrows are pointing to the spark plug tubes. To access the plugs you have to work in between the valve cover and the bottom of the cowl.

Can you share the shop name so people here know to never go there? I mean, sure, replacing the engine for a misfire was stupid enough, but...good grief, man.

No where has anyone said that they replaced the engine for the misfire. It was stated that it had a mechanical failure (FWIW the timing chain failed) and showed misfires on cylinder #4. It was nothing more than a coincidence that both engines demonstrated misfires on the same cylinder. Where the shop got into trouble was starting out by assuming that one had anything to do with the other instead of simply just proving what was going on right now.

Ok, I misunderstood since there was so much focus on the misfire. Pretty sure everyone here was under the same impression, so good thing the timing chain failure has been clarified.

In any case, I totally disagree with taking a used engine and throwing it in without servicing it. The extra cost on top of an engine swap would have been minimal.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

Ok, I misunderstood since there was so much focus on the misfire. Pretty sure everyone here was under the same impression, so good thing the timing chain failure has been clarified.

That's OK, 99% of my concentration was on the misfire too. In a way that is the point of what I was demonstrating, concentrate on the failure. Everything else is just noise that will make solving the problem more difficult if you don't block it out.

qbrozen said:

In any case, I totally disagree with taking a used engine and throwing it in without servicing it. The extra cost on top of an engine swap would have been minimal.

That's fine, fundamentally I disagree too BUT put yourself into a shop and now you get to deal with a consumer or one of the "consumer experts" who portray that as gouging and doing unnecessary work. Of course they reverse their opinion when not doing the preventive work lets a problem like this Lincoln experienced occur.

This is just another example of how hard it is to get to be "right". They would be wrong if they did replace the plugs (that's overselling/gouging), they get to be wrong if they don't and a problem is discovered. They only get to be right if they don't do the plugs and it doesn't result in a problem.

thecardoc3

The Strike continues...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-mechanics-strike-contract-offer-0812-biz-20170811-story.html

isellhondas

thecardoc3 said:

Harbor Freight has been come a long way since it's early days. You still have to be careful what you choose to buy but here is one item that is on my list. I need to replace my floor jack, again. I've owned four of them through the years but with slowing down I didn't replace my MATCO 3 ton jack when it failed and the tool man couldn't find me parts to repair it. As stated in this link, Snap-On wants $655 for their jack and Harbor Freight's is under $200. But is the cheaper one good enough? Harbor Freight says that it is in direct advertising. Snap-On took offense to that and sued. Here is where that stands right now.

https://www.biztimes.com/2017/industries/law/snap-on-harbor-freight-settle-floor-jack-case/

Back in the late 70's when I was in the tool business there were no imported floor jacks. If you wanted a 1.5 ton floor jack you bought a Hein Werner, a Walker or a Lincoln. In those days these sold for the mid 400.00 range. They lasted a long time and when they broke you had them fixed.

Then a company called Astro Pneumatic came along. They sold GOOD quality made in Japan floor jacks! They were two ton units and we sold them for 129.95. I knew the owner personally. His name was Irv Fisher and I believe the company may still be family owned. He started with three products. a 3/8 air ratchet a 3/8th impact gun and a half inch impact gun. They were made in Japan and they were as good as anything Chicago Pneumatic had to offer at less than half the price.

Harbor Freight started out selling garbage and we scoffed at them. Not anymore and I would think the big tool companies are terrified. Some items are still substandard but they have an upscale line of sockets and wrenches that I reluctantly have to admit compare to anything out there at a fraction of the price! They advertise everywhere and are adding stores as fast as they can. I wouldn't be afraid of a HF floor jack!