A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

thecardoc3

From a forum in the automotive management network.

There are nearly a dozen active threads about tech shortages and compensation. For all of that and older discussions its safe to say that the majority of the shop owners either don't have a clue how to work through the current trends of shrinking numbers of qualified techs or else they just have no interest in being part of the solution.

https://www.automotivemanagementnetwork.com/forums/topic/is-a-50-hour-tech-worth-75000/page/2/

I was a tech from 1983 to 2003 and always a drivability diagnostic  and electrical specialist. 2004 until 2016 I was in management and then decided to go back to my true love, diagnostics. I took a job in a small tire store chain because they hired me. I averaged $1100 a week doing maintenance, brakes, chassis and I was their diagnostic specialist, but there was very little diagnostic work there.  I finally got a job in a Mazda dealership for the purpose of becoming their go to diagnostic tech. They are training me and I am already their top guy for difficult issues. I now average $800 a week, about 10% more than I made 25 years ago 1992. I would make much more to stay a brake pad changer in a tire store, unfortunately I find that just to boring to do.

When I diagnose difficult wiring problems, intermittent drivability issues, ect., the kind of repairs that save us from lawsuits, CSI disasters and buybacks, my boss is lucky to get enough time out of Mazda to make my flat rate pay to actual time come out to minimum wage. I enjoy this work and fortunately am in a position in life where I can take the hit sometimes. The thing is that while I’m doing this the other techs that are making 45-55 hours a week and are vocally glad I’m there so they don’t get stuck with this work. There is zero incentive to gain my diagnostic ability by techs that will be financially punished for doing so. Manufacturers pay so little warranty time now that the best a tech can hope is, with practice, to break even after a few attempts. (I just got paid 0.6 hours to diagnose a poorly functioning parking brake, and replace and bleed a left rear caliper)
Much more is covered under warranty, (we are getting ready to put free ball joints on THIRTEEN year old cars). Maintenance intervals keep lengthening. Cars don’t break like they used to. These realities are the reasons we have survived this long with the dwindling talent available.

Now manufacturers have changed all sales departments to unit volume incentive so service departments are being depended on more to provide profit to the dealership while maintaining perfect CSI against surveys that are not designed to register customer satisfaction but force dealers to provide more services. That means the business plans for service have had to lower the percentage of tech cost per hour to make gross profit. The system is close to collapse.

It has taken a long time and a lot of small changes to get here. There is no one answer. The solution will take a lot of small changes. Someone better start making those changes or manufacturers are going to have no one to do all the warranty work they sponsor to stay out of court.

Mr_Shiftright

There is actually an answer. The techs, salespeople, parts people and finance dep't people have to own the dealership as a cooperative. There are any number of very successful cooperatives now operating in the U.S., although I'm not aware of an auto dealership cooperative.

In this way, such a business is operated in a way that benefits everyone, rather than as a lottery, where a few people get the big payoff and everyone else gets a $5 payoff.

thecardoc3

Another one bites the dust....

http://www.easternflorida.edu/academics/degrees-certifications/postsecondary-adult-vocational-certificate/automotive-service-technology.cfm

thecardoc3

Read between the lines. Take a look through these adds and think about what some of the statements really mean.

For example..

Automotive Technician - $2,000 Signing Bonus

Are You Tired?

We are looking for self-motivated technicians looking to just come to work, turn hours, and go home knowing they made their time for the day. No nonsense, no favoritism, and more than enough work to go around.  We offer competitive compensation packages, continuous paid training and the best team of fun and supportive co-workers in the industry.

No games, no tricks, just honest dispatching and a level playing field for everyone to make hours. 60% customer pay to 40% warranty. Air conditioned shops, very large parts inventory with local distributors to get parts quick. Each technician has their own diagnostic tool and computer so there is no waiting to do diagnosis.

What is the catch? There is no catch. We understand that being a technician is a complicated job. We try to make the best environment possible to help you be as efficient and as possible.


https://www.monster.com/jobs/q-automotive-technician-jobs.aspx

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds like your kind of shop Doc!

thecardoc3

Just think what some shops have to be like for someone to put out an add like that. It is saying all of the right things about their business.

Mr_Shiftright

My only reservation about the wisdom of such an ad is that it might attract a disgruntled tech whose difficulties might stem as much from his own talents as the atmosphere in his former shop.

thecardoc3

http://asashop.org/blog/coachs-corner-technician-pay-working-numbers-win-war-talent/

Mr_Shiftright

The article kind of contradicts itself.

thecardoc3

What makes you feel that way?

Mr_Shiftright

Well, unless I'm not reading this right----first the article says:

"A few years ago, the war for talent was waged between shops. Talent could be lured from one shop to another for a few dollars more per hour. You don’t see that happening now."

And then just a few paragraphs down, it says:

"Maybe the better question is: What does today’s talent find objectionable about our industry? Poor working conditions? I don’t think so. Work isn’t rewarding? Probably not. Low wages? Yes, that’s it!

It’s time for shop owners to adjust the wages they pay to a level that makes a career in our industry appealing. "

isellhondas

When I was in the tool business one of my distributors got thrown out of a shop because he had been asked by
an unhappy technician if he knew of any shops that needed a good tech. He did know of one, he provided the information and the unhappy tech got hired! He packed up his tools and left but not before telling one of his co-workers who had provided the suggestion to him.

Guess what one of my topics was in the next newsletter I sent out!

BTW, the guy who got his new job loved the change and became as I understand it a long term valued employee!

thecardoc3

An interesting read....Is he right before he turns around and claims it was only a dream and the dealers should be "inured".

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170710/RETAIL05/170719999/1137

qbrozen

The tone of his article seems to say we should stick with outdated business and manufacturing models to save dealerships. I guess we also should never have evolved past coal as our only power source to protect the coal mining industry. Or evolved electronics so we could protect the vacuum tube industry. Etc etc.

thecardoc3

You probably heard about this. Take note how important it was to mention taking care of the customers who lost vehicles. Front page news.....

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/buff-whelan-chevrolet-dealership-fire-30-vehicles-burned-service-center-destroyed

Here is where that story stands now.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/07/third_man_dies_of_injuries_fro.html

Here is a video of the event. Read and consider the comments from the "community".

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1e_1500756778

Mr_Shiftright

Not a great deal of sympathy for the guy who started the fire, was there?

thecardoc3

Par for the course however.

Michaell

@thecardoc3 - any comment about this post?

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/46578/general/x/looking-for-strategic-partner-in-hi-tech-automotive-initiative#latest

qbrozen

Michaell said:

@thecardoc3 - any comment about this post?

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/46578/general/x/looking-for-strategic-partner-in-hi-tech-automotive-initiative#latest

"DISCUSSION NOT FOUND"

thecardoc3

I did find it earlier, has it been removed? As I read it and then looked into what ELM is, I got the impression that it is another version of CARMD, or FIX'd and they are looking for someone with the knowledge and technical skills to make it work for them. Some of the stuff they wanted would be really high tech computer programing skills used to write predictive algorithms. They essentially wanted someone who could write a program that could take collected data from the vehicle data stream and have it predict when a failure is likely to occur. That IMO is something that is beyond the capabilities of the computerized systems on the cars at this time. But, if someone actually could write such software it would be a real game changer. However in all practical sense real diagnostics requires including pinpoint measurements at each end of every circuit and to do that it would take tripling the existing wiring (at the least) and software to check software and circuit conditions and the entire mess would simply be a logistical nightmare which is why it isn't done. Essentially three times the wiring would end up causing three times the number of possible failures if not more.

I was busy with other projects this morning which is why I hadn't put any time towards commenting on that post. The best I probably could have done is told them I don't believe that what they were asking for can be done to the level that they were hoping for. This Wikipedia post has something to do with their "tool".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELM327

guitarzan

Google has that post cached if anyone wants to read it.

qbrozen

the ELM327 is what I have. Both a bluetooth version and wi-fi version. Communicates with my phone and many apps, both free and not free, are available to translate the info.

Predicting breakdowns, if I'm reading correctly, I don't believe is possible. At least not reliably or consistently. It would have to be a specific failure that has signals beforehand which don't set off a dummy light in the car and don't affect drivability. How many could there possibly be?

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds like it would have to measure degradation over time to come up with a prediction.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

How many could there possibly be?

Infinite.

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

qbrozen said:

How many could there possibly be?

Infinite.

Maybe you misunderstood me. Or do you really believe the number of failures that have predictive signals detectable by 3rd-party software but undetectable by the car's software/hardware and undetectable by the driver is infinite?

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

Sounds like it would have to measure degradation over time to come up with a prediction.

Yes, which is no better than a maintenance schedule and would result in preventative repairs rather than waiting for something to actually break. Repair shops would love that, I'm sure. My wallet would not.

Mr_Shiftright

That was my thought, too. Someone holding up a printout and showing you some variation in data points. This isn't a Moon Shot we're on, it's just a car. People are already ignoring blinking red lights and overheat alarms.

We already predict the weather and people still get wet.

fushigi

"However in all practical sense real diagnostics requires including pinpoint measurements at each end of every circuit and to do that it would take tripling the existing wiring (at the least) and software to check software and circuit conditions and the entire mess would simply be a logistical nightmare which is why it isn't done."

The better implementation would be a messaging bus. The physical implementation would just be 2 wires running the length of the wiring harness; not point to point. Any sensor anywhere on the vehicle can post messages ("Produce") to the bus. Devices that wants messages from a given sensor subscribe to that sensor's messages ("Consume"). Two examples from the IT world are Kafka (https://kafka.apache.org/) and OpenDXL (https://github.com/opendxl). A Kafka-type bus would probably be better for automotive use (check the Powered By link for companies using it).

The bus approach also allows for correlated events; i.e. one ASIC can consume events from all wheel sensors to produce a single event that is consumed by the ABS & Traction Control units.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

Maybe you misunderstood me. Or do you really believe the number of failures that have predictive signals detectable by 3rd-party software but undetectable by the car's software/hardware and undetectable by the driver is infinite?

Just that the number of failures approaches infinite, regardless of whether they are detectable or not.

First the aftermarket software is going to rely totally on the factory hardware and software, so it's not going to detect anything that isn't already being measured. Meanwhile the number of things that could possibly go wrong while arguably a finite set needs to be recognized as not being a closed group. It's easy to look at a given circuit failure, for example a wire for one particular sensor and say that the wire could fail by going open, grounding, or develop high resistance and think that amounts to three total failures. What isn't being taken into account is one more piece of information and that is where did that wire fail on top of how and now you could look at the number of locations for that in the same way that you could consider the half life of a radioactive element. Without "where" in the diagnostics you don't have the answer yet and there is no way for any software or computer to do that without additional wiring and software that would only serve to make the harnesses and software vastly more complex than they already are. If you could calculate that number of possible failures for one wire that would be a pretty good trick. To make a self diagnosing car you would have to multiply that by the number of wires in the car.

thecardoc3

fushigi said:

The better implementation would be a messaging bus. The physical implementation would just be 2 wires running the length of the wiring harness; not point to point.

Vehicle's run several different types of data buses. The most common structures are:
http://science.donntu.edu.ua/ks/novikov/library/files/3.pdf
With the CAN differential data bus http://standards.sae.org/j2284/3_200203/ for OBDII cars and this one
http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/J1939.pdf for trucks and heavy equipment.

fushigi said:

Any sensor anywhere on the vehicle can post messages ("Produce") to the bus. Devices that wants messages from a given sensor subscribe to that sensor's messages ("Consume"). Two examples from the IT world are Kafka (https://kafka.apache.org/) and OpenDXL (https://github.com/opendxl). A Kafka-type bus would probably be better for automotive use (check the Powered By link for companies using it).

Bus designs have to be robust and as much as possible fault tolerant. Some systems can have half of the bus become corrupted and yet the modules on the bus can still communicate on the operational half. In practice when performing diagnostics I can take my PICO scope and record the serial data and then have the scope decode the data stream for comparison. So let's say I find a discrepancy in the data between the two halves of the bus. Does that mean that is a problem if the fault tolerance of the system filtered it out?

fushigi said:

The bus approach also allows for correlated events; i.e. one ASIC can consume events from all wheel sensors to produce a single event that is consumed by the ABS & Traction Control units.

I have a 2008 Nissan Frontier to diagnose today. It is a no start, won't crank, with a loss of communication with the ABS, SIR and PCM modules. It is setting a C1735 Ignition signal in the BCM, which means that while the BCM sees battery power on pins 57, 70, and ignition switch power on pins 11 and 38 a module on the data bus is reporting that the ignition signal is missing. The code does not tell you which module is reporting the loss of the signal. Modules that are missing from the data bus cannot of course send that information to the BCM for it's software to make that decision.

I have already planned the diagnostic routine for this car. The reality of the situation is the limits of the technology prevent engineers from being able to write a trouble tree to guide a technician through the diagnostics. There are just too many variables when there is a loss of communication so it is up to the tech to have the training, tools and skills to do the job. If you look up and attempt to follow the trouble tree in service information it concentrates on just the BCM's point of view and attempting to follow it would have a technician replace the BCM and if that didn't fix the car the wiring harness. If that doesn't fix it how much do you want to bet that the tech would be blamed for not being competent even though that is what the trouble tree would direct him/her to do?

BTW this car is a perfect example of what has been misunderstood about the work that automotive techs have to really be able to do in order to master their trade. This is the only one of these I am likely to ever see and the only chance that I have to get it right the first time. The information collected on this repair is unlikely to have any relevance to another car. How much work do you think a team of engineers should put towards building a system that is more likely to not be needed than needed? (rem. if it was even possible)

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

Maybe you misunderstood me. Or do you really believe the number of failures that have predictive signals detectable by 3rd-party software but undetectable by the car's software/hardware and undetectable by the driver is infinite?

Just that the number of failures approaches infinite, regardless of whether they are detectable or not. First the aftermarket software is going to rely totally on the factory hardware and software, so it's not going to detect anything that isn't already being measured. Meanwhile the number of things that could possibly go wrong while arguably a finite set needs to be recognized as not being a closed group. It's easy to look at a given circuit failure, for example a wire for one particular sensor and say that the wire could fail by going open, grounding, or develop high resistance and think that amounts to three total failures. What isn't being taken into account is one more piece of information and that is where did that wire fail on top of how and now you could look at the number of locations for that in the same way that you could consider the half life of a radioactive element. Without "where" in the diagnostics you don't have the answer yet and there is no way for any software or computer to do that without additional wiring and software that would only serve to make the harnesses and software vastly more complex than they already are. If you could calculate that number of possible failures for one wire that would be a pretty good trick. To make a self diagnosing car you would have to multiply that by the number of wires in the car.

Right. So we definitely agree such an "app" can't currently exist.

Mr_Shiftright

Let us know what you find.Some corrupted connector/wiring?

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Let us know what you find.Some corrupted connector/wiring?

I can do that but the real trick is not what is found but HOW it is found.

Turns out I didn't get to the Nissan yesterday. I had to hit the road for two mobile visits and then figured out a different no-start on a Jeep Grand Cherokee when I got back home.

thecardoc3

So I got to the Nissan. It isn't finished in fact it's not even close. When dealing with a vehicle that has multiple failures one of the first things you have to make yourself do is make a list of what is and isn't working. Then choose one of the problems and figure it out.

Here are the notes for where this is at. With some editing this will end up on the repair order.

No Start/won't crank with a loss of communication with the PCM, ABS, TCM, SRS and NATS modules.

The IPC, BCM and IPDM will communicate.
Wipers and washers inoperative. The drivers window does not work, the rest do.
Code C1735 setting in the BCM. Confirmed all of the powers and grounds for the BCM but research revealed that a loss of ignition power
to another module on the BUS can result in the BCM generating that code.

Found the PCM was unable to command the ECM relay at ignition on in the IPDM. Testing revealed that the circuit between the PCM and the IPDM was open. Testing and inspection revealed that a wiring harness has a connector that was mis-installed in the power distribution center causing the circuit to not be connected to the IPDM. The connector physically matches one of the connectors that go directly into the IPDM making it possible for that error to have occurred. Correcting this problem restored PCM operation.

With the harness routed correctly the IPDM now could turn on the ECM relay, but found a number of unpowered fuses. 38,47,48,49,50,51,54,55, which all get power from the ignition relay. The ignition relay get's power from the ignition switch and is grounded internally inside the IPDM.

Testing proved that the IPDM ground circuit for the ignition relay is open. Jumping the IPDM ground circuit resulted in power being sent to the dead fuses but still didn't restore full communication. However the fuse for the transmission control module failed immediately on power up for which the cause will still needs to be determined.

With powers restored to the system, the ABS, SRS, NATS are still not communicating. Testing revealed that the BCM is still setting code C1735. It is unknown at this time if the replacement of the IPDM will eliminate that code but with it setting the BCM is not sending the digital wake-up call message on the high speed CAN network to command the missing modules to turn on. (this is done with digital communication) Replacement of the BCM will be required if that problem persists after replacing the IPDM.

Further diagnostics will be required for the transmission control circuit fuse failing and any other problems not yet observed that won't be able to be detected until after full communication and operation is achieved.


So that is where that car stands at the moment. I'll be providing an estimate today that will cover the diagnostics up to this point including the replacement of the IPDM and if necessary the BCM which has to be programmed. I'll either have to rent a Console III or invest in Nissan's KERS software to perform the programming. It's either that or sublet the programming to the dealer. (FWIW. That's about $300 either way)

Once that is done as mentioned then the diagnostics will continue with proving why the fuse is blowing for the transmission control module which is part of the valve body assembly inside the transmission. Then a status check will need to be made at that point to see what is working and what all else needs to then be figured out. No doubt some will be wondering what caused all of this. I don't know the vehicle's history other than it came through the auction. I have seen vehicles that were struck by lightning suffer multiple failures. If that is what happened here there may still be a lot of work yet to be done. But anyway, the reality is that it doesn't matter what happened as far as repairing it is concerned. You just have to start working and keep going until it is complete and working correctly again or simply scrap it.

iluvmysephia1

I have a 2008 Nissan Frontier to diagnose today. 


Time for the owner ta trade up. Unless there's just something really...magical...about that truck.

thecardoc3

iluvmysephia1 said:

Time for the owner ta trade up. Unless there's just something really...magical...about that truck.

When that is the answer, why should someone get the training and develop the skills to be able to diagnose and repair one? The complaints never end when someone wants something repaired and they have trouble finding someone capable of doing it. Then when someone does have everything to do the job correctly the complaints shift to pricing. This nonsense has gone on through every technician's career and it has had a profound impact on the trades ability to attract and retain talent. In that respect, consumers deserve every bit of grief that comes along since they refused to allow the technicians to have careers that are truly fulfilling. Now maybe that is starting to change with the technology being way above and beyond just about everybody's ability to grasp but the legacy caused by past abuses will never be truly overcome.

FWIW. The original "owner" did exactly that, bailed on the car. The current owner thought he could get it to work and succeeded in adding problems to the car instead of working towards solving it. In it's present condition it is not an exaggeration to state that there are less than 100 people in the country (professional techs or otherwise) that can figure it out and get it fully operational again. Even then, half of them would likely need assistance from a second or third person, IT IS THAT COMPLICATED . This is a ten year old car. Just wait until today's cars get to be that old and every time one develops an issue and someone simply disposes of it, that will work out to contributing to even fewer people who can fix it.

roadburner

Note to self: Do not buy any decade old Nissan pickups.

andres3

thecardoc3 said:

iluvmysephia1 said:

Time for the owner ta trade up. Unless there's just something really...magical...about that truck.

When that is the answer, why should someone get the training and develop the skills to be able to diagnose and repair one? The complaints never end when someone wants something repaired and they have trouble finding someone capable of doing it. Then when someone does have everything to do the job correctly the complaints shift to pricing. This nonsense has gone on through every technician's career and it has had a profound impact on the trades ability to attract and retain talent. In that respect, consumers deserve every bit of grief that comes along since they refused to allow the technicians to have careers that are truly fulfilling. Now maybe that is starting to change with the technology being way above and beyond just about everybody's ability to grasp but the legacy caused by past abuses will never be truly overcome.

FWIW. The original "owner" did exactly that, bailed on the car. The current owner thought he could get it to work and succeeded in adding problems to the car instead of working towards solving it. In it's present condition it is not an exaggeration to state that there are less than 100 people in the country (professional techs or otherwise) that can figure it out and get it fully operational again. Even then, half of them would likely need assistance from a second or third person, IT IS THAT COMPLICATED . This is a ten year old car. Just wait until today's cars get to be that old and every time one develops an issue and someone simply disposes of it, that will work out to contributing to even fewer people who can fix it.

With inflation AND cost of living increases, I suppose a tech needs to make more money; which makes time-intensive repairs less desirable as vehicles get older and older.

However, I would think some inflation and cost of living is regional. A Tech in San Diego would need to make more money than one in Pahrump, NV, for example. So maybe all the older cars will end up in cheaper cost of living areas, including Mexico.

Mr_Shiftright

Holy Moly Batman! What a rat's nest of problems. This type of thing is especially dicey for the technician because he has to charge for time and repairs on Problem #1, and then has to announce problems #2 and possibly #3.

The question of "bailing" is well-founded, if one considers the worst case scenario of multiple hours of labor + pricey little modules + farming out the re-programming+ crossing one's fingers..

qbrozen

My Coronet is giving me a major headache. I have yet to figure out the overheating problem. 2 fans, 3-row aluminum radiator, new thermostat, and new water pump. I checked the timing again yesterday. While doing so, I heard a tapping from the left bank that I had not previously noticed. I also monitored temps with an IR gun. Left bank got up to 600 while right side never exceeded 500. 

Pulled the valve cover and don't see any issues. Was thinking maybe a stuck exhaust valve. Cranked it a bunch with coil disconnected and fuel pump off so I could watch for anything funky, but nothing apparent. I'd REALLY hate to run it with the cover off because I don't want to make that kind of mess in my engine compartment. Ran out of time last night, so that is where I left off. Next I will likely button it back up, change the oil because I'm not even sure if the previous owner put in the right type, and run it while pulling each wire.

Mr_Shiftright

So does it overheat at idle and not on the road, or vice-versa, or both?

qbrozen

It overheats very very slowly, so its kinda tough to tell. For example, driving to my dad's last week, it was locked in at 180 for most of the trip (20 mins). When I stopped for drivethru coffee and was waiting in line, it started creeping up. Got to about 195 before I was on the move again, but it did not go back down to 180. Stayed up there till I got to his house.

On the way home that evening, it was pushing 210 at times. When I was in my garage idling yesterday, it got up to 190-195 before I shut it down. That was maybe 10 minutes of idling with the electric fan off.

Mr_Shiftright

So it hasn't actually overheated? With a pressure cap, your "redline" should be well over boiling point of 212.

Speaking of which, have you tried "water wetter"?

Has this block ever been thoroughly flushed? Sometimes on old engines the water galleys can deteriorate.

andres3

qbrozen said:

My Coronet is giving me a major headache. I have yet to figure out the overheating problem. 2 fans, 3-row aluminum radiator, new thermostat, and new water pump. I checked the timing again yesterday. While doing so, I heard a tapping from the left bank that I had not previously noticed. I also monitored temps with an IR gun. Left bank got up to 600 while right side never exceeded 500. 

Pulled the valve cover and don't see any issues. Was thinking maybe a stuck exhaust valve. Cranked it a bunch with coil disconnected and fuel pump off so I could watch for anything funky, but nothing apparent. I'd REALLY hate to run it with the cover off because I don't want to make that kind of mess in my engine compartment. Ran out of time last night, so that is where I left off. Next I will likely button it back up, change the oil because I'm not even sure if the previous owner put in the right type, and run it while pulling each wire.

I commend you for buying an unusual old car and having the skills and time to work on it in the garage.

However, for me, where my car-working experience is zilch, I just don't have the time in life to have car(s) stuck in a garage. I'll stick to modern reliable automobiles.

Your experience has solidified my fear. I won't be buying any foolish early 80's Audi's

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

When that is the answer, why should someone get the training and develop the skills to be able to diagnose and repair one? The complaints never end when someone wants something repaired and they have trouble finding someone capable of doing it. Then when someone does have everything to do the job correctly the complaints shift to pricing. This nonsense has gone on through every technician's career and it has had a profound impact on the trades ability to attract and retain talent. In that respect, consumers deserve every bit of grief that comes along since they refused to allow the technicians to have careers that are truly fulfilling. Now maybe that is starting to change with the technology being way above and beyond just about everybody's ability to grasp but the legacy caused by past abuses will never be truly overcome.

I don't think the situation with this vehicle is one of a lack of desire to fix it or see it running again (even if not "completely fixed"). There's a value equation with any possession, though, that makes an owner weigh the cost of repairs against the value of future use, and everything goes "upside down" at some point. While that point can vary for different people (depending on that "value of future use" bit, as it is different for everyone), there is a break-even somewhere.

If using only the market value of a vehicle, that threshold is pretty low for a lot of vehicles that are really only one major repair away from the scrap yard.

I would hope that this does not devalue the quality and importance of your work. What you have done so far makes major inroads toward the possibility of repair, without an excessive investment of time or parts at this point. By laying it out as you have, the owner is in for some cost, but can pause and make a choice as to whether to get in deeper. Rather than guessing or dreaming, they have a fairly concrete decision in front of them... and you made this happen. That's valuable.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

So it hasn't actually overheated? With a pressure cap, your "redline" should be well over boiling point of 212. Speaking of which, have you tried "water wetter"? Has this block ever been thoroughly flushed? Sometimes on old engines the water galleys can deteriorate.

It did when it threw the fan belt several weeks ago. Hit about 230 before I could pull over. 

I have a bottle of the water wetter to put in. I'd venture a guess the block could stand to be flushed. I'm wondering if it is worth me sticking a hose in it to do a poor man's flush. I ain't pulling the engine unless it is absolutely necessary.

qbrozen

andres3 said:

My Coronet is giving me a major headache. I have yet to figure out the overheating problem. 2 fans, 3-row aluminum radiator, new thermostat, and new water pump. I checked the timing again yesterday. While doing so, I heard a tapping from the left bank that I had not previously noticed. I also monitored temps with an IR gun. Left bank got up to 600 while right side never exceeded 500. 

Pulled the valve cover and don't see any issues. Was thinking maybe a stuck exhaust valve. Cranked it a bunch with coil disconnected and fuel pump off so I could watch for anything funky, but nothing apparent. I'd REALLY hate to run it with the cover off because I don't want to make that kind of mess in my engine compartment. Ran out of time last night, so that is where I left off. Next I will likely button it back up, change the oil because I'm not even sure if the previous owner put in the right type, and run it while pulling each wire.

I commend you for buying an unusual old car and having the skills and time to work on it in the garage. However, for me, where my car-working experience is zilch, I just don't have the time in life to have car(s) stuck in a garage. I'll stick to modern reliable automobiles. Your experience has solidified my fear. I won't be buying any foolish early 80's Audi's

Gotta tell ya I debated quite a bit myself. Seems I always regret not getting the classic, though. Now that I have one, I regret not getting a more modern toy.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Holy Moly Batman! What a rat's nest of problems. This type of thing is especially dicey for the technician because he has to charge for time and repairs on Problem #1, and then has to announce problems #2 and possibly #3.

The question of "bailing" is well-founded, if one considers the worst case scenario of multiple hours of labor + pricey little modules + farming out the re-programming+ crossing one's fingers..

This is all true, until you attempt to factor in that shops traditionally didn't charge for diagnostics like this and therefore didn't pay the techs for the time that they had to invest in them. Take every CARMd advertisement article you have ever seen and now FIXd think about what they say to the consumer at large. How much would you like to bet that without the complete description of where this stands right now the story could end up being distorted to some owner saying "I spent $XXXX and all it needed was $YY....." because they associate only the last thing that needed to be done as being "the problem" and somehow everything else that was done was unnecessary if not dishonest.

thecardoc3

roadburner said:

Note to self: Do not buy any decade old Nissan pickups.

Do you feel the same way about decade old BMW's?

thecardoc3

xwesx said:

I would hope that this does not devalue the quality and importance of your work. What you have done so far makes major inroads toward the possibility of repair, without an excessive investment of time or parts at this point. By laying it out as you have, the owner is in for some cost, but can pause and make a choice as to whether to get in deeper. Rather than guessing or dreaming, they have a fairly concrete decision in front of them... and you made this happen. That's valuable.

Unfortunately the talent and skill to put this car back on the road in big money's eye's equals a new car that doesn't get sold today. They would prefer to sell a new one and scrap this one instead of having someone who can resurrect this Nissan.