A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

guitarzan

After analysis the mechanic suspects a slipped timing chain. [Update: I picked up the car and he said also it could be the variable valve timing mechanism.] He does have to formulate a plan and dive in to inspect the internals. A chain replacement involves concentration and he is packed and dealing with the customers (he said "giving bad news about repair costs") so he will not do it now with such distractions. Perhaps he will take it on appointment in a week. He estimates the job will be around $1,000. Engine has 110,000 miles at 19 years old.

I told him that from day one this engine went down on power when the weather got hot. He suspects the timing could have been off from day one but is exhibiting worse symptoms due to chain stretch.

I understand that Yamaha build the top end of this engine. I am not happy! I drove this car in a reasonable manner and did not abuse it.

I have to decide between continue to drive it as is, get it fixed, or get rid of it. The frequency of repairs is the biggest problem, as my wife is busy but has to provide me a ride.

andres3

A guy with an old 125,000 mile Audi says his bad mechanic promised he'd get "4 or 5 more good years" out of his car if he let him fix all the CEL codes lighting up. He ended up getting 4 weeks before the engine seized after paying the bum $3,200 in what can only be described as ill-advised repairs at this point.

Granted, he should have got "4 or 5 more good years" in writing, with a warranty of some kind, but still, I can understand his frustration.

That mechanic should learn not to say such things if he doesn't want pissed off customers.

thecardoc3

andres3 said:

A guy with an old 125,000 mile Audi says his bad mechanic promised he'd get "4 or 5 more good years" out of his car if he let him fix all the CEL codes lighting up. He ended up getting 4 weeks before the engine seized after paying the bum $3,200 in what can only be described as ill-advised repairs at this point.

How many times have I preached against guesses? That's all that prediction was is a guess and what we don't know right now is how was that really arrived at in the conversation did the mechanic really specifically say the engine would last that long or was he referring to the car in general and now that is just being inferred?

andres3 said:

Granted, he should have got "4 or 5 more good years" in writing, with a warranty of some kind, but still, I can understand his frustration.

That mechanic should learn not to say such things if he doesn't want pissed off customers.

What exactly was done to the tune of $3200? Was some of it internal engine?

I do agree that promises like that shouldn't be made but do you know how some vehicle owners react when they are not? That is often treated as being wrong too. But I do have to laugh at the idea because usually when we think a car is really on its last legs there are times we still see it limping around several years later and then the opposite can often be true. There may be no signs of trouble obvious today and tomorrow it just dies. That's just cars doing what they do, break when ever they darn well want to.

thecardoc3

guitarzan said:

My car is (still!) a 2000 Celica.

After analysis the mechanic suspects a slipped timing chain. [Update: I picked up the car and he said also it could be the variable valve timing mechanism.

Is it setting either a P1346 or P1349? My first expectation was that this would have a "target" VVT system, but after checking it should be capable of coding if the camshaft timing isn't in sync with the crankshaft or cannot be commanded to the desired position.

guitarzan said:

He does have to formulate a plan and dive in to inspect the internals. A chain replacement involves concentration and he is packed and dealing with the customers (he said "giving bad news about repair costs") so he will not do it now with such distractions. Perhaps he will take it on appointment in a week. He estimates the job will be around $1,000. Engine has 110,000 miles at 19 years old.

We have Andres' scenario here, you really cannot guess if this will survive the proceedure or not. Whether or not it is worth trying to do is completely subjective. You can't replace it for what it would cost to fix it, but whether it really lasts or not there is just no way to know.

guitarzan said:

I told him that from day one this engine went down on power when the weather got hot. He suspects the timing could have been off from day one but is exhibiting worse symptoms due to chain stretch.

Plausible, but not known for sure.

guitarzan said:

I understand that Yamaha build the top end of this engine. I am not happy! I drove this car in a reasonable manner and did not abuse it.

I have to decide between continue to drive it as is, get it fixed, or get rid of it. The frequency of repairs is the biggest problem, as my wife is busy but has to provide me a ride.

A 2000 model car the life expectancy is 12 to 15 years under all but the best care, at 19 years it's really not all that bad. A timing chain on one of these is about a 3 in difficulty on a 1 to 10 scale, so that's not a big deal. Pricing it out $1000 would be plenty to include the intake cam VVT actuator and the solenoid if required.

guitarzan

Thanks Doc.

No codes are set! The tech/owner made a comment that the newer cars would report something, but this one is not reporting anything.

Could it be just the VVT actuator? I'm guessing that would be a great find...?

I think I will fix it, keep it as a backup, and on the wish list is a Subaru (Outback or Forester) which my one mechanic seems to love the most today. In Dave Ramsey fashion I have avoided such a transaction for as long as possible. Not good to have cash tied up in a car, BAH!

I can say that I have given vendors all the work / boat payments they could possibly want. The TCO for all these years has still been far lower than a new car! Huzzah for the techs!

guitarzan

thecardoc3 said:

guitarzan said:

I have a guitar amplifier from about 1950, a simple circuit, that I need repaired.

If you can get it to me it should be easy.

Doc thanks! Update: We moved this year and I pulled the amp out of the box thinking I would ship it to you. I did some due diligence and played with the controls and inspected the underside of the circuit. Boy when you're right, you're right, and the issues are in fact easy.

1) The loud humming sound goes completely away when I turn the tone knob below 7 or 8. YES! Bad pot, but still usable.
2) I inspected underneath the circuit. The guitar connections are merely open dipoles, and input #2, the spring-loaded pole that presses on the guitar chord's 1/4" jack was bent from movement and being mounted too close to the base. I bent it back.
3) The speaker, oh the speaker. Parts of the cone are actually flapping in the wind, dry-rotted. Now don't get me wrong, "You Really Got Me" sounds just like the amp that Dave Davies used where he cut his cone up with a razer blade LOL. But most other music is a problem.

So I was originally going to repair it but with a speaker change it seems a bit counter-productive to make changes that will change the original sound and hardware. So I guess I will accept this as a collector's item, just play the Kinks on it when friends are over, and appreciate what I get from fans of old stuff like my guitar buddy who spotted it and exclaimed how supremely cool it is.

guitarzan

thecardoc3 said:

But I do have to laugh at the idea because usually when we think a car is really on its last legs there are times we still see it limping around several years later and then the opposite can often be true. There may be no signs of trouble obvious today and tomorrow it just dies. That's just cars doing what they do, break when ever they darn well want to.

Update: Purchased a new vehicle. The wife did not consider the Celica safe anymore based on the repairs (I was okay with it.) We defied all of the Dave Ramsey advice and bought a new Outback. Now we have to decide on the potential $1000 VVT-L repair to the Celica. The wife says dump the car, the insurance, all of it. She is usually right...

guitarzan

I put a sales ad up for the Celica. Just as the ad went live, I came home to discover...a gasoline leak! It was dripping from the tank. I contacted all of the local junkyards. One of the oldest local businesses replied that they are only taking newer vehicles. LOL. Imagine that. A junkyard will not take my car. So they referred me to the next business down the line who promptly came to get the car and hand my wife a $200 check.

And thus ends the 19 year history. Wow, that was a long time. I was downsized a week after buying that car. It was well worth it to keep it so long. It did prepare us well financially, despite the yearly repairs!

I apologize that we will never know the extend of the engine problem!

xwesx

It's off your hands and the company got a heck of a deal on it. Win-win!

thecardoc3

Worth the time to watch.

https://www.autonews.com/video/its-more-humane-why-one-dealer-pays-service-techs-hour

xwesx

Amazing stuff. You pay people to add value and be competent, increase their expectations and satisfaction, and they stay longer with better results.

Is this some sort of witchcraft?!

I do find it interesting how the owner admits that flat rate acts as "an invisible manager." At the same time, he also recognizes that "fast" is not "better."

thecardoc3

New hires, and they need about five years to get through an apprenticeship, in a trade that doesn't actually have one and then it's another fifteen years for an intelligent hard working individual to master.

https://www.autonews.com/best-practices/amid-technician-shortage-group-hiring-now

A shortage of service technicians is among the top concerns at dealerships across the country, and one is taking a unique approach to solve the problem.
Warren Henry Auto Group, headquartered in Miami, last month began holding job fairs promising to hire qualified technicians on the spot.
Instead of following the usual protocol that would take weeks to pick someone for a sorely needed job, the company brought its dealer principal, service director and human resources staff to the fair at Florida International University. It essentially amounted to a professional game of speed dating among dozens of candidates.
By the end of the day, the company had made verbal offers to five candidates, most of whom will start this week.
"We're trying everything," Barbara Exposito, Warren Henry's human resources director, told Automotive News. "We have to make decisions pretty quickly, especially because of the need in the business."

‘Dangerous shortage'
According to the National Automobile Dealers Association, the industry is facing a shortage of 76,000 technicians each year through 2026. In addition, 30,000 per year will be retiring.
NADA Chairman Charlie Gilchrist addressed the issue at his inaugural address in January, saying the "dangerous shortage" threatens dealer profitability. The NADA Foundation launched a work force initiative this year to connect prospective technicians with open jobs.
"This is not an issue we can afford to kick down the road," Gilchrist said.
Exposito said the Warren Henry group, which operates 13 franchises at six locations in Florida, thought a hire-on-the-spot event would stand out and draw attention to its needs. Many dealerships have offered on-the-spot gimmicks for trade-ins or buyback programs.
"We felt confident our service director would be able to meet with all of the candidates," she said. "It worked out well."
READY TO GO

Warren Henry Auto Group is holding job fairs for service technicians where it makes on-the-spot offers in respone to a shortage of qualified candidates.
New HQ
Aside from the industrywide tech shortage, the Warren Henry group has another incentive to hire as quickly as possible: It's set to open an 800,000-square-foot headquarters in North Miami this fall.
The site, which will feature 82 service bays in a climate-controlled shop, will allow the company to double in size and hire 150 to 200 workers, about 40 of which will be service technicians.
As part of the interview process, prospective employees got to tour the construction site. The seven-story building will sell Jaguar, Land Rover, Infiniti and Koenigsegg vehicles out of a glass-paneled showroom. Officials say it will include the nation's largest electric vehicle charging facility.
It also will have a cafe, rooftop event space, gym for employees and other amenities.
The Warren Henry group, which has had stores on Automotive News' list of the Best Dealerships To Work For in each of the past five years, sold more than 4,300 new and used vehicles last year.
The company plans to host another hire-on-the-spot job fair at the end of August, Exposito said. The group also is attempting to recruit techs at colleges and universities.
It offers relocation assistance and housing opportunities for out-of-state workers. It's also attempting to raise the profile of its service technicians, occasionally allowing individual workers to "take over" its social media channels for a day.
"We like to think of recruiting as more of a guerrilla marketing approach," Exposito said. "If everyone's talking about what we're doing, there's more buzz around it."

thecardoc3

https://www.dailylocal.com/news/local/chester-county-experiencing-dearth-of-auto-technicians/article_77044754-d0d2-11e9-958b-d34de1db7cdb.html?fbclid=IwAR0anoCAkKOAb3CZ3rvhcnxKxN_so5BiVWm0PAYwtDs3jvHXWF7-iYWkhX4

thecardoc3

I should probably give this its own thread. If you like to read, enjoy it. If you want to jump to one of the main highlights, concentrate on pages 40-42. https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/sites/default/files/2019-07/KILL SWITCH 7-29-19.pdf

roadburner

It's already happened...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoB_mdZxNlY

thecardoc3

LOL. Lots of things have happened in movies.

xwesx

Intriguing article. While a kill switch would create all sorts of problems of its own (mostly due to the loose nuts behind the wheel), it would certainly allow for a level of "peace of mind" that might be a boon for the technology in the long run.

Frankly, I think the idea of having "safety critical systems" completely isolated from the IoT functions is a non-starter (mostly due to the efficiency of over-the-air updates, of which the intent of many is to modify the software functions in such systems), it makes so much sense to offer fail safes.

thecardoc3

From Auto News. Fixed OPs Journal Forum.

The issues often surrounding dealer service are well documented. Dealers get credit for having technicians specialize not just in a limited number of makes and models, but often work only with specific systems such as a transmission technician, an electronics specialist etc. They also get plenty of bad press for the tendency to "wallet flush" which when called on it typically try and place all of the blame the technicians and service advisers and pretend to be victims.

Here are a couple quotes from the Forum.
BTW. There are no quotes from any technicians in this forum. Accident?

https://www.autonews.com/fixed-ops-journal/automotive-news-fixed-ops-journal-forum-improving-returns

Mark Hargreaves, service manager, Gator Chrysler-Jeep-Dodge
"Why is it important to train technicians to properly write an estimate? An organized estimate will increase the adviser's close ratio. It will decrease the time it takes to get authorization. And it will increase your hours per repair order — it's going to make it easy for the writer to sell the job; the customer's going to buy more."

Tully Williams, fixed operations director, Niello Co.
"Do we sell dollars? Not really. We sell hours, and I want to track hours through my store. We look at three key performance indicators.
"First, how are my hours being tracked — by writer, by technician, by store? Next, how do we get more hours? Are our techs doing the great-quality recommendations that we would sell to our family members?
"Last but not least, are we selling these recommendations to all of our customers?"

Lee Harkins, owner, M5 Management Services
"Take a look at why I should go to work for you. That should be the point that you advertise in your ads. Not what you want. But, what does a technician want?"

Max Lowenbaum, vice president of sales, Hireology
"There are people in the market. The issue is that those people are not considering retail automotive, or being a technician, as the place that they would consider working."

guitarzan

"Or, on our service drive, do we just say: 'We have one offering. One alternator. You want it or not?' You are not going to sell too many of those."

L O L

"An organized estimate will increase the adviser's close ratio. It will decrease the time it takes to get authorization. "

That required repairs, written by someone who is supposed to understand the vehicle, need some business guy to approve them, that says a whole lot about the people involved and the system.

thecardoc3

guitarzan said:

"That required repairs, written by someone who is supposed to understand the vehicle, need some business guy to approve them, that says a whole lot about the people involved and the system.

I struggle to call what they are doing "a system". Meanwhile warranty labor times have continued to be stripped to an impossible level where only someone who has years of experience, a fortune in his/her own hand tools and works like they are running a 100 yard dashes all day long can achieve them. Which leads back to why they have to sell maintanence items in order to "be productive". I don't think that the absence of people who can actually do the work not being represented in their forum was an accident.

thecardoc3

This will probably raise a few eye-brows.

https://mercedcountytimes.com/skilled-auto-mechanics-are-close-to-rocket-scientists/?fbclid=IwAR2gj9TeRPOBCrJcfSF1-FE0fSgbb9A9f7R1l-bp0JMLDkRCJoSUZzJ3kMo

andres3

I read a thread of complaints on Facebook againt VW, and a lot of them sounded like gripes caused by incompetent technicians/service advisors, and dealerships, not on VW or VW product.

roadburner

I've told this story before, but back in 2007 I was considering a new GTI. I knew that the DSG transmission required a fluid change at 40,000 miles so I called the three local VW dealers' service departments to find out how much they would charge to perform the service. One dealer put me on hold and came back with: "The newer transmissions are sealed and don't need service. Everything is done through the computer." At the second dealer the SA who picked up asked me "What's a DSG?" I was transferred to a second person who stated that there was "no recommended service" for the DSG. Only the third dealer actually got it right.

andres3

roadburner said:

I've told this story before, but back in 2007 I was considering a new GTI. I knew that the DSG transmission required a fluid change at 40,000 miles so I called the three local VW dealers' service departments to find out how much they would charge to perform the service. One dealer put me on hold and came back with: "The newer transmissions are sealed and don't need service. Everything is done through the computer." At the second dealer the SA who picked up asked me "What's a DSG?" I was transferred to a second person who stated that there was "no recommended service" for the DSG. Only the third dealer actually got it right.

Exactly. Bad dealerships are not that uncommon, and some people genuinely believe the car is to blame for them taking it to incompetent folks and shops. Either that, or they believe all shops and dealerships are equally incompetent.

thecardoc3

Exactly. Bad dealerships are not that uncommon, and some people genuinely believe the car is to blame for them taking it to incompetent folks and shops. Either that, or they believe all shops and dealerships are equally incompetent.

There has always been another possibility. In fact the most likely one is usually the last to be considered, and that would be that collectively the people being referenced were in fact very knowledgeable and experienced beyond anything you could imagine but they just had not experienced that one issue, yet. Imagine if everyone was only judged by their lack of awareness of some minutiae and the rest of their knowledge and skills deemed as totally irrelevant because of it.

guitarzan

thecardoc3 said:

Imagine if everyone was only judged by their lack of awareness of some minutiae and the rest of their knowledge and skills deemed as totally irrelevant because of it.

This is a common logical fallacy that right now is all over the media, and it is worse in 2019 than it has ever been. People who know absolutely nothing about how to manage a system have become expert at collecting and even worshiping "data" and "facts." But if one does not know their particular fact, they dismiss one's entire view as wrong.

If one collects facts for two weeks one can prove any false narrative. If one collects facts over 100 years, it can support the concise opposite point of the prior set of facts. The longer facts are collected the closer to the truth one gets. Facts, like a tech having a problem with a particular job, have zero inherent value in themselves.

Just had a great laugh at work. A coworker is trying to integrate systems and he is given data that is an utter mess. I took a look at it and told him to try decoding it using a certain Latin character encoding. I thought he ignored me as he said, "Who would think that this German file would have a Latin encoding, that makes no sense." He worked on this for days and came back and said that he was successful with Latin ISO 8859-1. I said, "Hrm, I specified Latin but had no idea to use ISO 8859-1." In his sarcastic manner he said, "I bet you'll never make THAT mistake again." I hung my head low in false shame and said, "Well back to the drawing board with my skills." I slumped backed to my cube as he laughed behind me.

It was a long and painful fix, as it was actually the second decoding he had to do to the same dataset, which is INSANE. We fixed it brainstorming together over several days. But we are lucky Doc. We are in a group where we manage our own fixes. I've never seen an IT group like my current role. If it takes X days, or X weeks, or whatever, the boss always says, "okay!". You techs have no luxury like that. Even I have never had this luxury before, which resulted in some extremely serious stress, and even caused me to simply walk away from my bread and butter.

thecardoc3

I helped a shop Massachusetts last month with a Cadillac STS. It came into the shop with a dead engine control module. They accurately diagnosed the failed module and installed a replacement, programmed it and got the car running again. They reassembled the rest of the car and road tested the car a few times over the next day and no other troubles were found. On the day the customer was supposed to pick it up it represented with the original symptoms and another dead ECM. I worked with them online and over the phone a couple times and they couldn't find anything on the car that was killing the module, and yet they encountered the same issue two more times. I had them ship me one of the modules, and they actually sent two of them. I found the same damage in both modules under a microscope and that let me figure out what circuit on the car was causing the failure. Next I had to create a routine that would result in me proving exactly what the cause was. I spent a day.in their shop doing just that.

I have hundreds ( thousands?) of similar but different diagnostic/repair events over 40 years of fixing cars plus countless ordinary services that experience as a tech made for unremarkable time on the job. Yet, if someone calls and I am not yet aware of some other cup of water in that ocean of possibilities, that lack of knowledge becomes the measure from which I would be judged.

roadburner

thecardoc3 said:

There has always been another possibility. In fact the most likely one is usually the last to be considered, and that would be that collectively the people being referenced were in fact very knowledgeable and experienced beyond anything you could imagine but they just had not experienced that one issue, yet. Imagine if everyone was only judged by their lack of awareness of some minutiae and the rest of their knowledge and skills deemed as totally irrelevant because of it.

Well, there were must have been a LOT of VW techs who were "in fact very knowledgeable and experienced beyond anything you could imagine" who were totally clueless about that "minutiae." Here are a couple of contemporary posts from a multiple page thread on VW Vortex concerning DSG service:

"[the dealer] called me and told me the car was ready. I had mentioned some problem with the shifting of the transmission and they said they could not replicate it. I then asked if they did change the oil and he said "no, it's a sealed unit and does not require service" I told him it's right in the owners manual and he continued to argue. I had the VW website up and it shows it there..still argued. He then said he would go and talk to the mechanic. He called back thirty minutes later and said the same thing. Meanwhile I had VWOA on the phone and at first the gal said the same thing and I told her "look down further on your list" and sure enough, she found it. She said she would call the dealer. He called me later rather sheepish and told me they would take care of it and I can pick it up today. Just for fun I called the other dealer here in the Austin Tx area and I made sure to tell the guy the car had the DSG trans. He quoted me the same thing..I asked him if the transmission oil was included and he said "No, VW automatics normally don't require service"

"Of the 30 dealerships contacted, and two customer service reps at VWoA, ONE provided me with an answer that jives with the manual.
That's right folks, 1 out of 30. The golden star goes to John at Mirramar VW in San Diego, which, oddly is the only dealership I trust in so-cal to work on my car (as if this wasn't enough reason)."

One tech posted, "There is no such thing as perfection in this world. Most of us learn by doing things wrong the first time!"- I replied that I thought that must be the mission statement of VWoA.

So, what is the customer with a blown DSG to do when VWoA denies warranty coverage because the transmission was never serviced? I don't think telling VWoA, "The tech was the Einstein of VW service- except for a few bits of minutiae." is going to help...

thecardoc3

roadburner said:

"Of the 30 dealerships contacted, and two customer service reps at VWoA, ONE provided me with an answer that jives with the manual.
That's right folks, 1 out of 30. The golden star goes to John at Mirramar VW in San Diego, which, oddly is the only dealership I trust in so-cal to work on my car (as if this wasn't enough reason)."

By your standard it will still only take one thing, JUST ONE, out of the countless possibilities that they dont know right now and they will also then be one of the thirty. Remember no room for anything less than perfection as you point out in your next sentence.

roadburner said:

One tech posted, "There is no such thing as perfection in this world. Most of us learn by doing things wrong the first time!"- I replied that I thought that must be the mission statement of VWoA.

roadburner

You conveniently forgot that in January I stated that in 2018 two shops I use DID make mistakes- but they were quickly rectified when I politely brought them to the shop's attention. Further, I still continue to patronize AND recommend both shops.

What the DSG comments illustrate is that VWoA technical training appears to be woefully incompetent.
When only 1 out of 30(or in my case, 1 out of 4) dealers don't know the servicing requirement of a transaxle that is installed in upwards of 50% of their most popular model, something is wrong.
When a tech is 100% wrong and is convinced that he is 100% right, something is wrong.
When a tech doesn't know what a DSG is, something is wrong.

Twelve years later, I could not care less, I have a first-rate BMW dealer, an equally good Mini store, and a great indie shop for my TJ. Fortunately, the competence or incompetence of VWoA and their hapless employees is not my concern.

qbrozen

I gotta agree. This isn’t like we are talking about a level 1 tech not knowing off the top of his/her head the amperage of the fuse in slot 12 of every model on the lot. This is a required service of a major component common across the lineup.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

I gotta agree. This isn’t like we are talking about a level 1 tech not knowing off the top of his/her head the amperage of the fuse in slot 12 of every model on the lot. This is a required service of a major component common across the lineup.

I just looked at the history of the DSG transmission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-shift_gearbox It was released in 2003 in Europe and made it worldwide in the 2004+ (2005) Beetle.

The Jetta didn't get a DSG until 2009.

I also just looked up VW's factory service interval information for their transmissions.

For the Beetle it says, even under the severe duty heading. "Frequency",,, "Maintainence Free Item".

The Jetta (2010) it only says the manufacturer does not specify an interval.



Hmmm.

roadburner

Check the GTI manual in 2007- it called for a 40k fluid filter change.And itIt was still a requirement as late as 2015.

thecardoc3

I tried. I need to get valid VIN to download one online. However, the 2005 Beetle, the first car that could have a DSG again says "Maintanence Free Item" in the factory service information. That would typically be a two year old, 30,000 mile car twelve years ago and would fit nicely with the assertion that there were techs that would not have known that it should be serviced at a much more agressive interval than the rest of VW's line.

I looked at each model year from 2005 through 2015 and no where in the factory service information do they have a transaxle/transmission service interval. No where in any TSB's that I quickly looked at related to issues with the transaxles does it say anything more about the fluid beyond to check the level and check for leaks.

We should also take a little walk back in time where every consumer "expert" was running around telling vehicle owners about the shops selling services that were not specifically recommended in service information.
Technicians were well aware of the troubles being caused by painting us be rip-offs for recommending services that were not listed in service information while we also knew that servicing transaxles, even if they weren't a DSG significantly improved the service life.

roadburner

So, I should be thankful for techs that don't know the service requirements of one of their most popular vehicles.
Wow. I guess I sold VWoA short...

thecardoc3

Actually they should be thankful.......

roadburner

Yes, I'm so unpopular at my BMW dealer that they still give me the employee discount on parts/service and provide an M340i loaner- even when they are servicing my 24 year old E36/5.

But I can understand your comment, VWoA service departments almost certainly have way too many customers who know more about their cars then the alleged "factory trained technicians."

xwesx

Overall, I think that manufacturers are too quick to suggest "lifetime" fluids on their vehicles. No matter how good the technology of the fluid or the device, time and use takes its toll.

I replaced the fluid on the ZF 8-speed automatic transmission in my Q7 this summer. With about 85,000 miles on it, the change was noticeable from the driver's seat. Though the fluid I removed "looked okay," (somewhat darker than the new fluid), there was a lot of metallic sediment built up around the pan magnet, and the car behaved smoother afterward, along with an annoying ticking noise going away at the same time.

thecardoc3

My Escape has now broke the 342K mark something that without servicing the transmission the way that I do was very unlikely to happen without requiring some major transmisson work along the way. I do a drain and fill about every 30K (about 60% of the fluid) and it always looks the same as the fresh fluid right out of the bottle. This level of service is not in the owners manual, nor service information, but the result stands in its own. But that doesn't make someone else who follows the O.E. reccomendations wrong, in fact telling someone that they need to do what I do with my transmission would easily be criticized as overselling and a rip-off .

guitarzan

There there is context, and the reality for a large number of consumers. Craigslist is filled with twelve year old vehicles that require a transmission, where the rebuild cost is on par with the vehicle's entire value! "Why on earth would we the OEM want to preserve the transmission when it is a significant driving factor for moving new units?"

If I were a dealership vying to preserve the integrity of my brand, when a customer complained about one of the most expensive systems in the car, if we could not fix it via other means, the electronics or such, it would get maintenance.

Sorry Doc, the risk-reward situation on the transmission for the consumer is huge. And almost always the transmission is far out of warranty when it completely fails. Dealerships perpetually demonstrate that they are fine pushing off operational flaws if, "Well it still works." That is BOGUS with respect to the transmission.

roadburner

Both of my cars that have the ZF 8 transmission will get a fluid/filter change at 60k miles as ZF recommends. I’ll let my BMW dealer handle it- although it’s not that tough a job if you have a lift. FCP Euro sells the ZF kit with a new sump/filter, new bolts, and the correct fluid for under $300.

thecardoc3

That's one of the toughest things to have to contend with, typically cars are a depreciating asset and the companies who build and sell them want to keep it that way. There is an interesting article in Auto News , Fixed Ops Journal about what Advanced Drivers Assistance Systems are doing to body shops. They are simultaneously reducing the number of accidents while inflating the cost of repairs for vehicles that do still get into an accident.

I have been asked to do hands on classes in California to help techs improve their skills related to the diagnostics, repair and setup/calibration of these systems. The tooling alone sets the shop back around $20,000 and then they start finding the traps. One example of a repeat calibration failure on a radar cruise had the system detecting the steel wall studs inside the wall in front of the car. That resulted in a lot of lost time for that shop plus the expense related to having a specialist come in and figure out what exactly was going on.

roadburner

The only “driving aids” I care about are parking sensors and stability/traction control that can can be dialed back as well as fully defeated.
When I worked at BMW we often dealt with cars that had the windshield replaced by an independent shop and now were having issues with rain sensors and/or automated cruise and collision avoidance systems. The indie shops weren’t necessarily inept so much as they weren’t familiar with how all of those systems were integrated.

qbrozen

I hate parking sensors. Just give me ABS. You can keep all the rest.

thecardoc3

roadburner said:

When I worked at BMW we often dealt with cars that had the windshield replaced by an independent shop and now were having issues with rain sensors and/or automated cruise and collision avoidance systems.

In the last four years we have written over sixty hours of classes for technicians to help them get up to speed with these systems. That isn't even close to being enough training for senior technicians who already know all of the collaborative systems but there is only so much money and time that any of them have to invest towards ADAS and they still have to keep getting training on everything else. The best techs around the country today are attending more than two hundred hours continuing education a year to try and keep pace with the advancing technologies.

roadburner said:

The indie shops weren’t necessarily inept so much as they weren’t familiar with how all of those systems were integrated.

Everyone fits somewhere into this category everyday no matter how much experience, or knowledge they have and that's why your VW DSG comments really are inappropriate. There is so much to have to learn and need to know as a technician that the best anyone can really do is take tiny bites at any one time.

To try and put this to a different analogy imagine trying to fill a football field with darts. Each dart is a lesson learned, new task completed with or without any mistakes. The football field represents a finite amount of knowledge that one can gain through his/her entire career. You start off throwing darts as fast as you can and imagine just trying to fill one end zone and not leave a single gap between any darts. Meanwhile you still have to start making your way towards the opposite end of the field throwing as many darts as you can each year. By the time you start reaching the ten yard line imagine how much you would know, but when you look at the field what stands out isn't how many darts you have thrown but where holes remain that a dart hasn't landed yet. So you keep throwing darts every day, in every direction gaining more and more knowledge and experience as you slowly move across the field towards the fifty yard line . But still what stands out isn't the millions of darts one has already thrown, it's the holes where no darts have landed yet. Some of the holes are still in that first end zone where you started and you may never need to know those pieces of information, or you might need to learn one of them today. Some of those might be memory tricks that you need to teach yourself so that you don't do something dumb like connect a battery backwards, or put a tire on inside out, or forget to install or tighten a bolt. Some of them are traps where someone who is aware of it will use it to criticize you as if that it is the whole measure of your knowledge and experience. Years have now passed and you now have darts scattered over the majority of half of the football field but there are still holes, spots where no darts have landed. Those holes may never be filled and you may never know that you didn't know what those darts represented. Now you turn and look at the other half of the field where you have yet to throw any darts and what really stands out isn't that vast space in front of you, its the jokers who are moving the goal post further away.

roadburner

I can sympathize with an auto glass shop that has to deal with a dozen or more different makes and their associated technology. However, I’m not inclined to give a pass to VWoA; the 2007 GTI was a very popular model and the DSG take rate was likely 50% or more. It’s a major vehicle system.
The lack of knowledge about the vehicle from both service AND sales(the salesman insisted that the GTI had Brembo brakes because the calipers were painted red) caused me to remove the GTI from consideration.
At my dealer the sales/product specialists as well as the techs received special training on the M and i(BEV and PHEV) vehicles. I was qualified to sell and/or deliver both and staff that didn’t know the answer to a question about a vehicle called me or another qualified individual- as opposed to faking an answer on the fly.

qbrozen

Everyone fits somewhere into this category everyday no matter how much experience, or knowledge they have and that's why your VW DSG comments really are inappropriate.

As RB suggested, these 2 things are nowhere near the same ballpark. Just as a GTI shopper in 2007, I immediately became aware of what this new gearbox meant, how it worked, and the servicing needs. In my profession, I work on a large number of pharmaceutical products, and I HAVE to know everything about them. When I get a new product in my queue, I have to study up on it, scour the data, etc, etc. If I were a mechanic dedicated to a specific brand, I sure as heck would want to know all there is to know about this newfangled doohicky that will shortly be in my customers' hands. To reiterate, this is NOT directed at an indy mechanic, but at a brand-specific mechanic AND the brand-specific service writers.

xwesx

roadburner said:

Both of my cars that have the ZF 8 transmission will get a fluid/filter change at 60k miles as ZF recommends. I’ll let my BMW dealer handle it- although it’s not that tough a job if you have a lift. FCP Euro sells the ZF kit with a new sump/filter, new bolts, and the correct fluid for under $300.

It's not really that tough a job even without a lift, but it does have an extremely odd drain/fill mechanism from the bottom of the pan. I was able to put together a tool that worked beautifully for the task, with a little creativity, versus the relatively expensive "tool" that's out there for the same task. Initially, I thought maybe I would just leave it to a local shop, but they argued with me about changing it because it wasn't in the service manual.

I don't see why I should pay a shop, even a reputable one, my money when they don't even want to do the work. Hahaha I saved a lot just doing it myself (about $300 for the aforementioned kit), but it sure was a pain to get it sorted out. To top it off, I accidentally broke the pan heater I installed, so I had to scrape it off the pan and install a new one once the job was done.

Doc: Wow! Those are impressive miles on the Escape. What year is it? My grandmother had a 2012, and I really liked the overall package of that generation.

roadburner

I’ve had a couple of people tell me that their BMW dealer refused to change the ATF at 60k miles even though the factory service schedule called for a change at 100k miles. I couldn’t decide whether the service department already had too much work or that they didn’t believe that they were competent to perform the procedure.

andres3

roadburner said:

I’ve had a couple of people tell me that their BMW dealer refused to change the ATF at 60k miles even though the factory service schedule called for a change at 100k miles. I couldn’t decide whether the service department already had too much work or that they didn’t believe that they were competent to perform the procedure.

I had alignment shops tell me they wouldn't work on Audi's (over 10 years ago), but that's better than venturing into incompetent territory. Just admit defeat.