Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

1172173175177178180

Comments

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    xwesx said:


    Doc: Wow! Those are impressive miles on the Escape. What year is it? My grandmother had a 2012, and I really liked the overall package of that generation.

    2010, and it will break 343K on the way back home tonight. Should be right about 400K this time next year.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited December 2019
    andres3 said:

    I had alignment shops tell me they wouldn't work on Audi's (over 10 years ago), but that's better than venturing into incompetent territory. Just admit defeat.

    That's odd. There really isn't anything that special with most of them. Some European vehicles require special tooling to preload the steering linkage to really do them properly. Most shops they just don't see enough of those cars to justify the cost of the tools so passing it off would be the right thing to do. What car did you have?


  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited December 2019

    I’ve had a couple of people tell me that their BMW dealer refused to change the ATF at 60k miles even though the factory service schedule called for a change at 100k miles. I couldn’t decide whether the service department already had too much work or that they didn’t believe that they were competent to perform the procedure.

    Or maybe they didn't want to look like a shop that is out to take advantage of the vehicle owner as referenced in hundreds (thousands?) of articles like this one. https://www.edmunds.com/car-maintenance/confessions-from-the-dealership-service-department.html

    "But the most important thing, don't trust the dealer's recommended mileages; use the manufacturer's guidelines in the manual. This is probably the best way to deflect the service guys when they try to upsell you. Copy that page in the manual, hand it to the service advisor and say, "Here's what I want you to do."

    Maybe you can picture this happening and maybe you can't but here is a small sample of what shops have had to deal with.

    A customer comes in and requests a transmission service. First thought is "WHY"?
    Is he already having an issue with it and thinks this will fix it?
    Is just due for regular service?
    Other?

    One possible outcome from the visit is the service is done, customer leaves, end of story. But there are others.

    One if them is that the transmission was having a problem but that doesn't get disclosed and there are no obvious signs that it is failing. The next thing the shop knows is that they are getting blamed for causing the issue. The remedies at this point are everything from they just part ways, to giving the money back, all the way to the shop unfairly eating a transmission repair/replacement.

    Then we have the buyers remorse guy, he wants the transmission fluid changed and the shop obliges. Then he reads something like the above linked article and goes back wanting to know why they didn't tell him it wasn't actually necessary and wants his money back. That usually results in him getting it too.

    There are all of the stories where something does go wrong when a shop/tech is performing a service, it happens, that's just the way this world works. A good shop makes that right when it happens, its part if the cost of doing business. You almost never see the side where the shop/tech did everything exactly as they are expected to and then things go sideways for whatever reason after the fact. A large percentage of those events happen for some reason with people who are self assured that they know more than everyone who actually does the work. Service advisors need to identify those people and keep their cars out of the shop.








  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    guitarzan said:

    If one collects facts for two weeks one can prove any false narrative. If one collects facts over 100 years, it can support the concise opposite point of the prior set of facts. The longer facts are collected the closer to the truth one gets. Facts, like a tech having a problem with a particular job, have zero inherent value in themselves.

    That deserves a repeat. "Facts, like a tech having a problem with a particular job, have zero inherent value in themselves."

    The only value in that event is whether or not the tech learned from it and especially if the lesson taught can apply to more than just that one event. That's called "experience".

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Well, if I go to a dealership and and the service department refuses to perform a service that the manufacturer actually calls for, but at a longer interval, I will assume-fairly or not-that they simply aren’t qualified to perform the requested service.
    Both my BMW and Mazda dealers had no issue performing services at shorter intervals than called for by the OEM, of course they knew my cars saw track use from time to time.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873

    Well, if I go to a dealership and and the service department refuses to perform a service that the manufacturer actually calls for, but at a longer interval, I will assume-fairly or not-that they simply aren’t qualified to perform the requested service.

    This is a disease in the motorcycle industry. The only Honda motorsports dealership in the region would not do a valve check/adjustment on my VFR800. How does an OEM refuse scheduled maintenance on their own vehicle? This is not a 1975 model where there is no current information on it, but new ones were still rolling off of the assembly line at the time I called the dealership.

    To your point, all I can figure is that they know they might blow up the engine swapping the cams in and out, because they have no idea what they are doing, and the ownership would rather sell weed whackers than work on their own bikes.

    The motorcycle industry: All of the same problems iterated here regarding cars, but worse. There is no expectation that a dealership will repair the bikes that they sell.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited December 2019
    guitarzan said:

    This is a disease in the motorcycle industry. The only Honda motorsports dealership in the region would not do a valve check/adjustment on my VFR800. How does an OEM refuse scheduled maintenance on their own vehicle?

    Imagine that, fail to support and invest in the people required to do the work and you eventually end up with no-one qualified to do the work. The biggest mistake ever made is when the people who are trying to learn and become the qualified techncian(s) that you need are faulted and insulted for trying to learn.

    PS. I looked up the valve adjustment on that engine. Nothing at all noteworthy compared to what we have to do on a routine basis, in fact much easier than most. You should see what shim and bucket kits cost.




  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762

    xwesx said:


    Doc: Wow! Those are impressive miles on the Escape. What year is it? My grandmother had a 2012, and I really liked the overall package of that generation.

    2010, and it will break 343K on the way back home tonight. Should be right about 400K this time next year.
    Wow. That is some serious annual mileage! You do travel.....!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    xwesx said:


    Should be right about 400K this time next year.

    Wow. That is some serious annual mileage! You do travel.....!
    I can be anywhere in the North East US in any given week. My first trip in 2020 will see me in Maine, I'll be over 350K by the end of January. I could fly to some of the destinations but then I wouldn't be able to take tools and diagnostic equipment with me that might be needed to assist a shop/technician with something difficult to diagnose. There are still more shops and techs without oscilloscopes, pressure transducers, and current probes etc. than have them, so being able to go in and help them and let them use those kinds of tools so that they see them first hand and learn their value makes a big difference for them.

  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    edited December 2019

    guitarzan said:

    This is a disease in the motorcycle industry. The only Honda motorsports dealership in the region would not do a valve check/adjustment on my VFR800. How does an OEM refuse scheduled maintenance on their own vehicle?

    PS. I looked up the valve adjustment on that engine. Nothing at all noteworthy compared to what we have to do on a routine basis, in fact much easier than most. You should see what shim and bucket kits cost.
    Doc the billable time for the valve adjustment is a significant portion of the bike's value. Say a 1999 may be worth $2400 and the job billed at, not positive but $600-800? So NO ONE pays to have them done and only the most skilled owners do the job themselves where the labor is free. Thus the population of used bike's are almost all valve-maintenance-free. High revving racing engines, raced to the max on the street, then utterly neglected. The good news is that most Honda techs interviewed state that they have never seen a valvetrain failure due to tight valves on any Honda engine. Have you?

    My indie mechanic quoted $1100 but I think he was looking at the VTEC and for some reason the VTEC valves take additional labor. But speaking of, "Did the tech actually do something they said they did?" -- When I was dropping a part off in the shop he had the covers off. He put his finger on the shims and rotated them and told me, "There is still clearance here." I am unclear if he gauged them all, I trust him so it did not matter. I may not put on enough miles to ever check them again.

    I found shim kits online and was ready to pull the trigger and provide the whole thing to the mechanic. I see high quality kids for $180 or so. Also one can potentially get lucky and swap the shims that are in the head and not have to purchase any, but of course one does not want to find out if a shim is needed in the middle of a job.

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    My VTEC valve adjustment, valve cover gasket replacement and four spark plugs came to $390, including labor and parts.

    Of course, my VTEC is a 2008 Honda Fit. ;)

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    kyfdx said:

    My VTEC valve adjustment, valve cover gasket replacement and four spark plugs came to $390, including labor and parts.

    Of course, my VTEC is a 2008 Honda Fit. ;)

    Your's is easy, no shims. When I would be doing a timing chain, or belt on Honda engines with that mechanical valve adjustment I usually overlapped the labor meaning that it cost less than $80 to add it to the primary service.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited December 2019
    guitarzan said:


    Doc the billable time for the valve adjustment is a significant portion of the bike's value. Say a 1999 may be worth $2400 and the job billed at, not positive but $600-800? So NO ONE pays to have them done and only the most skilled owners do the job themselves where the labor is free.

    Serviced properly what is it that this older bike cannot do that a new one does? Who decides what it is really worth? This is essentially the same issue with cars, the primary people who decide what your older car is worth are the same people who make a living selling new ones while they then turn around and try to sell your older car to someone else for more than they gave you for it during the trade.

    I have 344K on my 2010 what would a dealer say it is worth? What is my Escape it really worth? Aside from ADAS what can a new vehicle do that my Escape cannot? Let's say this another way, starting from tomorrow which is more likely to go 100K miles and have fewer problems? Something new off the showroom floor or my Escape?
    guitarzan said:


    Thus the population of used bike's are almost all valve-maintenance-free. High revving racing engines, raced to the max on the street, then utterly neglected. The good news is that most Honda techs interviewed state that they have never seen a valvetrain failure due to tight valves on any Honda engine. Have you?

    Taking liberty with the idea of seeing a valvetrain failure because of tight valves on "any" Honda engine I can absolutely say that I have, in fact I typically see a good number of them every month. When valves get tight they tend to overheat, then start to leak and eventually burn and cause the cylinder to lose compression. Loose valves on the other hand are noisey, but don't have a problem with cooling and subsequently failing. The only time the valves are truly being cooled is while they are closed by direct contact with the valve seat. Some say that the valve guides are partly responsible for cooling and that is true to a point, but if you loose cooling at the seat the guide cannot make up for it and the valve fails.

    Now you might be thinking how can I see that many. I network with thousands of technicians around the country and we have all been teaching each other and sharing case studies and diagnostic and repair strategies since the beginning of the internet. (before that as well but not to the same extent) Having learned and then shared the advanced scope and pressure transducer strategies as part of the much larger group we have both experienced and somewhat newer technicians routinely sharing their successes as well as being ready to take or lend a hand when someone has to diagnose a given issue for the first time, and tight valves is something that we do see all the time. The only question is will an adjustment fix the problem or is it too late?
    guitarzan said:


    My indie mechanic quoted $1100 but I think he was looking at the VTEC and for some reason the VTEC valves take additional labor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEimE9DptP4
    guitarzan said:


    But speaking of, "Did the tech actually do something they said they did?" -- When I was dropping a part off in the shop he had the covers off. He put his finger on the shims and rotated them and told me, "There is still clearance here." I am unclear if he gauged them all, I trust him so it did not matter. I may not put on enough miles to ever check them again.

    Some techs learn or at least believe they learn torque by hand and don't grab a torque wrench every time they really should. Then again I've seen techs criticized for using a torque wrench on a fastener or drain plug. Trying to judge valve clearance by feeling the rocker movement is a slippery slope. Can I personally detect a valve that is too tight (no clearance) or a valve that is way too loose, all I can say is that I have but I don't rely on that and always use a feeler gage as the final judgement.
    guitarzan said:


    I found shim kits online and was ready to pull the trigger and provide the whole thing to the mechanic. I see high quality kids for $180 or so. Also one can potentially get lucky and swap the shims that are in the head and not have to purchase any, but of course one does not want to find out if a shim is needed in the middle of a job.

    I started doing my own valve work in the late 70's and learned how to adjust the closed valve height by cutting the stem which we still do today. With the head off, I can measure the clearance, calculate what I need to do to make my adjustment and then take that off of the top of the valve stem. That lets me keep the original shim in place as long as it doesn't have any wear. If the original shim is too tight and has no clearance then a smaller shim must be installed and an additional step has to be performed to calculate the required clearance. It was either learn how to do it like this or else buy shim kits where shims cost some ten dollars a piece and it always seemed like you used the same ten out of the set.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    edited December 2019
    How timely, a letter in this month's "Motorcycle Consumer News:"

    "...enough is enough with ridiculous valve adjustments. A new BMW requires $1500 service every 18,000 miles, that's twice a year for me. The prices are crazy and manufacturers wonder why nobody's buying bikes."

    I have 344K on my 2010 what would a dealer say it is worth? ...the primary people who decide what your older car is worth are the same people who make a living selling new ones while they then turn around and try to sell your older car to someone else for more than they gave you for it during the trade.

    On one hand individuals also do not care about the intrinsic value of a well-running vehicle. On the open market old = worthless. Peeling paint = worthless.

    Advice to me, from Mr_Shiftright, "The used car market seems to favor cosmetic condition over mechanical condition."

    I learned a valuable lesson. One, which I had known but this is good to stress: Compare total cost of ownership when repairing a vehicle by comparing the long-term repairs to a car payment. For quite a few years, repairs are much less expensive than a new car. Two, if planning to sell a vehicle before it gets too old, do not spend a dime on it, but keep the finish looking good. The car is rated by age and mileage, and shiny paint commands a premium. Ten items can be on their way out, ready to fail. If they are not broken yet, buyers do not seem to know or care.

    On the other hand, and to your point, dealerships control a huge portion of the used car market so they must influence prices overall. They control the new car market. Many of the brands in a metro area are run by singular corporations. If these companies are not monopolies, then what is?

    Regarding trashing cars that are 12-15 years old, and moving large numbers of new vehicles, somewhere out there is a better balance between this, what Americans do, and what the Cubans had been forced to do with vehicles.

    Taking liberty with the idea of seeing a valvetrain failure because of tight valves on "any" Honda engine I can absolutely say that I have, in fact I typically see a good number of them every month.

    Lesson learned! Huh.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    I've had my Club Sport for just over 24 years. I bought the Jeep in 2002 for a parade car and planned to sell it as soon as the election was over. It turned out my wife, son, and I all really liked it and I sold my 1993 Pathfinder instead(it even served as a campaign car last year- one final time for my final campaign). I still love it.
    I plan too keep the Mini until 2024, when I retire for good. I appreciate older and newer vehicles.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    Got a haircut on Saturday. Everyone in the shop was talking car brands and terrible experiences. Someone criticized the dealer techs. An elderly gentlemen immediately chimed in with, "..not necessarily the tech's fault...you need to understand..." He started talking like Doc and I knew what we had there. Turns out he is a retired mechanic. He only recently retired but I think he said he is 77 and was in that industry for 52 years.

    He talked about what it would cost today to develop a good set of tools, and also what he collected. My memory for numbers is bad, but I think he said that he has $250k worth. I asked if he has liquidated them yet. "No. They are only worth ten cents on the dollar. I don't have a lift at home so these tools help me to fix my vehicles."

    He talked about the 60's. Dealers would split repairs 50/50 with techs. He stated that even at 60/40 we felt that was very fair. Something happened and the techs get little now. Dealers used to have porters to setup cars. Now the tech locates the car, brings it into the bay, performs many duties which are not included in the billable time.

    He contested with Olds the book rate of the replacement of a leaf spring in an 88/98 Olds. The employees had to bring the car in and lift it. The OEM rep set out all of his tools nicely and neatly. Only then did he start the clock on the job. He did not say but the story implied that the OEM rep did just fine in making the book time.

    This gentleman's last role was a tech for our municipality. So he fixed every commercial vehicle that came through, including cement mixers. He rattled off the variety of systems that he had to work on. He listed 7, including hydraulics, pneumatics, lighting systems such as light bars (I presume for ambulances, fire trucks, police cars.)

    That includes the highlights, most of which had been written in this thread already.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    I would have loved to have heard that conversation. Armed with the insight you have gained over the years he was probably very surprised that you knew what the trade is like. I also would have liked to get to know what the guy that criticized the techs was thinking during and after the conversation.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited December 2019
    Still have to work on shooting the segments and especially the editing, but as a DIY'er at this it's a learn on the fly production.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVDHu0d0UQ
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    edited December 2019
    I recalled this one. People will be entertained by this.

    The barber has a friend at Toyota. His friend has won something like the "Golden Wrench Award," Doc this guy sounds like you. He is called from techs across the region to identify problems that others cannot fix. The barber said that this tech is the one guy in the area authorized to work on the Supra. He has a set of tools...get this...that say "Supra" right on the tools. (What does that set cost I wonder?)

    This Toyo tech did tell him, "Don't ever go to a dealership for a repair" due to the rate, the highest rate around applied to "every service, no matter what it is."
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    I have a set of gold plated wrenches for being selected as a NAPA ASE Tech of theYear for my district, something I achieved three times. I don't believe that they would have much value to anyone else. I have a couple of statuettes, from the GM Master Technician program back in the mid '80s. My favorite is the Howard Miller Mantle Clock that I earned by making the GM Master Technician Advisory Council in '86.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    I bought a '95 BMW M3 from a Toyota field tech, in 2014. ;)

    No idea if he was an award winner.

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited December 2019
    guitarzan said:

    I recalled this one. People will be entertained by this.

    The barber has a friend at Toyota. His friend has won something like the "Golden Wrench Award," Doc this guy sounds like you. He is called from techs across the region to identify problems that others cannot fix. The barber said that this tech is the one guy in the area authorized to work on the Supra. He has a set of tools...get this...that say "Supra" right on the tools. (What does that set cost I wonder?)

    This Toyo tech did tell him, "Don't ever go to a dealership for a repair" due to the rate, the highest rate around applied to "every service, no matter what it is."

    The Supra(hardtop Z4) is apparently a big deal at Toyota. I went to test drive a Supra this weekend. Nope, can't do it without a signed buyers order- which means that dealer is off my list.

    When I worked at BMW we gave test drives to most anyone unless we thought the person was a total flake. Heck, at my store we helped people regardless of where they bought the car; as the product specialist I helped more than one person who bought a used BMW that was missing the owners manual.

    One Saturday I helped diagnose and change a blown fuse in a miled up E65 7er for two ladies who looked and dressed like they had just left a Hendrix concert 50 years ago. We took the position that helping all BMW owners established goodwill- and who knows? the kid in the tatty E46 3er who needs help with his trip computer may be one of our customers someday.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    How much for a pit crew at track/racing events so all you have to do is show up and drive?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    So did anyone here take the time and watch the video? We have often been told, "anyone can do brakes" to which we had to add the word "incorrectly" in order to make it accurate. Being able to do brakes means not just being able to slap a set of pads on a car, it actually means being able to diagnose any problem with the braking system. To do that you have to be both tooled and experienced in order to perform the test that was demonstrated in that video and diagnose if a problem is internal to or external of the ABS system.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Being able to do brakes means not just being able to slap a set of pads on a car


    I respectfully disagree with such a simple statement. If that is all it needs, then that is indeed all it takes. If the request is "can you do brakes AND diagnose a faulty ABS system," then, no, obviously slapping on a set of pads is not the full solution.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    qbrozen said:

    I respectfully disagree with such a simple statement. If that is all it needs, then that is indeed all it takes. If the request is "can you do brakes AND diagnose a faulty ABS system," then, no, obviously slapping on a set of pads is not the full solution.

    So if you were running a shop, that is all you would require an employee be able to do?

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891

    qbrozen said:

    I respectfully disagree with such a simple statement. If that is all it needs, then that is indeed all it takes. If the request is "can you do brakes AND diagnose a faulty ABS system," then, no, obviously slapping on a set of pads is not the full solution.

    So if you were running a shop, that is all you would require an employee be able to do?

    Of course not. But that's not what your statement implied.

    "Can you do brakes?" and "Can you diagnose and repair ABS fault codes?" are very very different questions, for obvious reasons. And, if someone ever asks "can you do brakes?" the response should be "do WHAT to brakes, specifically?" Every consumer I personally know would say "can you do brakes?" when they mean they just need new pads.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited January 2020
    qbrozen said:

    qbrozen said:

    I respectfully disagree with such a simple statement. If that is all it needs, then that is indeed all it takes. If the request is "can you do brakes AND diagnose a faulty ABS system," then, no, obviously slapping on a set of pads is not the full solution.

    So if you were running a shop, that is all you would require an employee be able to do?

    Of course not. But that's not what your statement implied.

    "Can you do brakes?" and "Can you diagnose and repair ABS fault codes?" are very very different questions, for obvious reasons. And, if someone ever asks "can you do brakes?" the response should be "do WHAT to brakes, specifically?" Every consumer I personally know would say "can you do brakes?" when they mean they just need new pads.
    Maybe pads and rotors, and flush the brake fluid.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    It's time to move the bar, actually its way past the time that it should have been done but if someone wants to claim that they know how to do brakes their knowledge and skill has to include everything related to diagnostics as well. That video above is only a sample of what they really need to be able to do.
    andres3 said:

    Maybe pads and rotors, and flush the brake fluid.

    The majority of the cars on the road right now require a full function scan tool to perform the brake bleeding/flush routine correctly which goes hand in hand with some of the functions demonstrated in that video. As pointed out, ADAS is a game changer and it is in play even with a basic brake repair.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Thankfully I have yet to run into any such vehicle in my driveway. At least not one that needed brakes during my ownership.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    qbrozen said:

    Thankfully I have yet to run into any such vehicle

    With any luck the technology will work correctly........

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762

    So did anyone here take the time and watch the video? We have often been told, "anyone can do brakes" to which we had to add the word "incorrectly" in order to make it accurate. Being able to do brakes means not just being able to slap a set of pads on a car, it actually means being able to diagnose any problem with the braking system. To do that you have to be both tooled and experienced in order to perform the test that was demonstrated in that video and diagnose if a problem is internal to or external of the ABS system.

    Watched it. Was well done, save for that it seemed to leave any finality out at the conclusion of the video, given the setup during the introduction. In other words, something like "So, the test here allowed us to narrow down the problem by isolating each solenoid and lead us to conclude that the solution is...." I realize that the point was the diagnostics, I am just saying that the overall video felt incomplete given the introduction.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729

    andres3 said:

    I had alignment shops tell me they wouldn't work on Audi's (over 10 years ago), but that's better than venturing into incompetent territory. Just admit defeat.

    That's odd. There really isn't anything that special with most of them. Some European vehicles require special tooling to preload the steering linkage to really do them properly. Most shops they just don't see enough of those cars to justify the cost of the tools so passing it off would be the right thing to do. What car did you have?


    I had the '06 Audi A3.

    Maybe at the time, not everyone knew it was a VW GTI with a higherline fancier interior and sportier suspension tuning (with the sport package).
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited January 2020
    xwesx said:

    So did anyone here take the time and watch the video? We have often been told, "anyone can do brakes" to which we had to add the word "incorrectly" in order to make it accurate. Being able to do brakes means not just being able to slap a set of pads on a car, it actually means being able to diagnose any problem with the braking system. To do that you have to be both tooled and experienced in order to perform the test that was demonstrated in that video and diagnose if a problem is internal to or external of the ABS system.

    Watched it. Was well done, save for that it seemed to leave any finality out at the conclusion of the video, given the setup during the introduction. In other words, something like "So, the test here allowed us to narrow down the problem by isolating each solenoid and lead us to conclude that the solution is...." I realize that the point was the diagnostics, I am just saying that the overall video felt incomplete given the introduction.
    I wonder how many brake failures at amatuer HPDE track events are caused by someone doing their own brakes "incorrectly?"

    He might have a point here. While I've damaged my brake system by driving at tracks, I've never had "catastrophic" brake failure like some others have reported. I don't do my own brakes, so I have no opportunity to be at-fault for "failures."
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Seems like a stretch to me. I can't think of anything that would link a catastrophic failure to a standard brake change. I suppose if the person were totally clueless and didn't realize the rotors were worn down near point of failure? But that's pretty extreme. I don't know anybody who would even try working on their own vehicle and not be aware enough to see that. But I don't really hang out with idiots, either. So I guess its within the realm of possibility.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    Author of the video has a good point: It is often just as helpful to see what happens when things go wrong as it is to see them go right.

    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited January 2020
    xwesx said:

    Watched it. Was well done, save for that it seemed to leave any finality out at the conclusion of the video, given the setup during the introduction. In other words, something like "So, the test here allowed us to narrow down the problem by isolating each solenoid and lead us to conclude that the solution is...." I realize that the point was the diagnostics, I am just saying that the overall video felt incomplete given the introduction.

    That was intentional because of the target audience. What you won't see is the dialog that created for techs that are part of a forum that I did that for. The goal was to get them to analyze how I used the scan tool in the video and then try to figure out the answers to the three questions at the end. You really don't learn to be a solid technician by sitting in a class and having someone tell you everything that is good or bad. You learn by taking what you know, and then when confronted with something you don't you have to work through it to figure out the answer.

    For example: Stepping on the pedal it was stroking down towards the floor. When opening one of the release valves, let's use the left front (since the problem is on the right front) the pedal would drop a little. You could do that three or four times and each time the pedal would drop until the low pressure accumulator for the left front wheel becomes full of fluid.

    Now repeat that with the right front release valve. There are two possibilities. One is that the pedal drops, similar to what the left front did. That means the problem is in the caliper/pads/lines. If the pedal does not drop then it is the release valve in the ABS controller that is leaking and that is exactly what was wrong with that truck.

    As I have said, I could write this all out and present it in a class. Then it might be ten, fifteen, twenty or more years (if ever) before a tech ever encounters this issue. If we only cover it in a classroom setting what are the odds the tech (or anyone for that matter) will recall it years later? But what if instead of trying to get them to remember this exact scenario we get them to know how to figure it out. Just think what that would do for other similiar but different ones that weren't actually covered.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    edited January 2020
    Here is something I wrote twenty years ago. Each question in it is supposed to generate an answer. Like I said above, knowing how to do brakes means you can walk right through each of the first set of questions with little to no hesitation. Not being able to do that means you could throw pads, rotors and more at the car and fail to fix a brake problem. (That is the Tundra above) This essay also includes carburetor work. If you can't just have the answer immediately to the questions then you might be able to take a carburetor apart, clean it and out it back together and even be happy with the result, but do enough of them and you are going to fail and someone will be standing there ready to tell you that "You don't know what you are doing".

    BTW .These are by no means the total sum of what you would need to know for either of these areas. These are just some of what an experienced tech understands from just the road test as he/she is getting ready to actually diagnose a vehicle problem. I could write dozens of these for any of the hundreds of systems in the cars on the road and still leave more than I could even think of unmentioned.

    Written in August of 1999

    We have all known people that drive a car a few blocks, to a few miles, and they just seem to "know" where to look for the trouble. How did they acquire this ability? Wouldn't it be great to be able to do this too? Lets explore some situations, and see if we can create a way to teach what before could only be gained by years of experience.
    Here is a simple one to try to visualize first. Customer complaint, brake pulsation. What is the first thing that you do upon receiving the work-order. Would you pull it right in the shop and start measuring rotor thickness, and runout ? Or would you drive it first and try and determine is the problem in the front or the rear brakes, and how can you tell ? So here we go, answer these questions

    From the road test alone;
    Can you tell the difference between brake pulsation occurring in the front of the car versus the rear ? What would you do to find out ?

    Can you tell the difference between a pulsation caused by rotor runout and one that is caused by thickness variation ?

    Can the sounds from the car during braking, help determine if the pulsation is occurring at 1 wheel, 2 wheels, or all 4 wheels ?

    Now that you've got this car back in the shop, without any expensive tools, how can you tell if a rotor runout problem, is the fault of the rotor, or if its a fault of the wheel hub / rotor mounting surface ?

    O.K so what does this simple example have to do with drivability problems ? You can use the same senses, and fact finding tools, in order to narrow down the cause of a performance complaint. Sometimes simple changes during the road test will save you time in your diagnosis of a complaint. Lets go to a carbureted car for the next example. Answer these questions with what you would expect to "feel"
    From the road test alone;

    Can you tell the difference between a hesitation caused by, a bad accelerator pump, as compared to a transfer port problem ?

    Can you tell the difference between the previous hesitation, to an overactive EGR, what can you do to diagnose this while on the road ?

    Can you tell the difference between a clogged fuel filter, and dirty primary metering system ?

    Can you tell just by trying to start the car when the engine is cold, if the choke system is able to do its job. Is the car to rich to start, or too lean ? What do the differences sound like ?

    Going back to the hesitation, is there a sound you could listen for, that with its presence you could rule out late timing, and overactive EGR from the road test?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762


    As I have said, I could write this all out and present it in a class. Then it might be ten, fifteen, twenty or more years (if ever) before a tech ever encounters this issue. If we only cover it in a classroom setting what are the odds the tech (or anyone for that matter) will recall it years later? But what if instead of trying to get them to remember this exact scenario we get them to know how to figure it out. Just think what that would do for other similiar but different ones that weren't actually covered.

    I see what you're saying, and it makes a lot more sense in that context.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    xwesx said:


    I see what you're saying, and it makes a lot more sense in that context.

    This is the challenge that we have always faced that unless someone has actually tried to make a career of being a technician they just don't have a reference to judge it by. The other post that I copied here from 1999, nobody ever taught any of that before techs like myself started sharing that and trying to. Everything referenced in that post reflects back to a vehicle that presented with obvious classic issue but there were very subtle clues that there was more to the story. Some of them took more than one effort to solve and some of them were figured out the first time that problem was encountered. The key point of that post is how well the tech can observe the details of the vehicle behavior and then maybe even figure out if he/she can change something that will change the vehicle's symptom and help prove what is actually wrong. That "skill" takes decades of work to learn, and now also requires the tech to be able to handle the complexities of the electronics on top of the "basic" mechanical skill.

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    It is a gift, to be sure. And, also having the ability to not only recognize and respond appropriately to such scenarios, but also be able to *teach it*... that's truly rare.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    The most rewarding part of what I do is when a routine helps a tech figure something out efficiently the first time and maybe only time they encounter an issue and they take the time to tell me about it. That's worth all of the effort right there. A simple strategy that I present is when faced with certain trouble codes the tech needs to find out exactly how the module runs the test and the see if it is possible to make the system set the opposite code.

    e.g. You have a code for an open circuit, jumper the harness and see if the module now sets a code for the circuit being shorted. If it does, then the problem is toward the component if it does not then you are working towards the module. You wont find that (my) routine in service information.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    The answers to the questions above are:

    Sometimes, it depends on the exact vehicle design. By applying the parking brake slightly to see if you can feel the pulsation since it only applies one set of brakes. We used to be able to do this all of the time when the parking brake operated the rear brakes the same as the hydraulic system. Today parking brakes might be electronic or be in the hat of the 4 wheel disc so this trick doesn't always work now.

    A vibration caused by rotor runout shakes the car, steering wheel etc. With thickness variation you feel the pedal push back at your foot.

    Runout will force the caliper and pads to move side to side on the affected brake. With a light application the pads and caliper(s) can make a sawing type noise. Heavier application of the brakes tends to dampen the sound.

    Check the indexing of the rotor to the hub. Measure the runout on the surface of the rotor and put a mark on the high spot of the rotor and the closest stud. Remove the rotor and reinstall in a different position and see if the high spot moves with the rotor or stays with the hub.

    Both conditions cause hesitations. The accelerator pump causes a hesitation when the pedal is applied quickly, the transfer port causes a hesitation when the pedal is applied slowly.

    An EGR causing a hesitation occurs after the initial attempt to accelerate but, first of all does not happen in a wide open throttle acceleration since the EGR doesn't open under that condition (No control vacuum, little to no intake vacuum). The EGR can be temporarily disconnected. There are many variations here that also had/have to be learned.

    The engine loses power on cruise or acceleration. The clogged filter lets the engine produce power until the fuel level in the bowl drops, the dirty (restricted) primary symptom occurs the moment the air/fuel ratio strays out of range and power can be restored just as quicklyby changing the throttle position to one where the fuel ratio comes back into range.

    Too rich often supports some random combustion events until the plugs foul, too lean produces no ignition events. Pumping the throttle can overcome too lean by providing fuel from the accelerator pump.

    The last one about what sound could rule out late timing and overactive EGR of course is pinging/detonation. But here is a twist on pinging.You are driving a vehicle and experiencing a hard misfire. When the misfire occurs pinging can be heard, it is not heard if the misfire doesn't happen. What is the cylinder losing that is causing the misfire? The answer is spark, why?
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    A stuck fuel injector is flooding the cylinder, the misfire is the ignition of excess fuel.

    A spark cable or coil is intermittent. The misfire is the result of fuel igniting outside of the correct timing.

    Oil blow-by is coating the spark plug.

    Whatever the cause, perhaps after the misfire the computer detects the condition and stops the fuel for a while, generating ping.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    The answer is, the pinging prooves that the cylinder has compression and fuel so by default it had to lose spark.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    edited January 2020
    Oh I thought the question was "why is it losing spark." My bad in overthinking it.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    That would be the next question though and the tech would need to decide how to go about proving what is happening.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,742
    Two questions. What is the cost of living in New Jersey? What is the minimum wage?

    https://www.autonews.com/service/nj-dealers-launch-tech-apprenticeships

    N.J. dealers launch tech apprenticeships
    Mark Elias

    “I had never even picked up an impact gun,” says apprentice Justin Moran, “but now I’m able to change brakes, I can do tire rotations, alignments, oil changes and even some troubleshooting.”

    New-car dealers in New Jersey were alarmed. Amid a growing industrywide shortage of service technicians, the 451 franchised dealerships in the state lacked a collective plan to identify, train, hire and retain talented techs for their shops. So this year, the New Jersey Coalition of Automotive Retailers, or NJ CAR, created an apprenticeship program for aspiring techs. The state Department of Labor and Workforce Development gave the initiative substantial seed money: a $907,000 grant.

    Datello-Esquilin: Job satisfaction
    "It had been nagging at me that we didn't have a pathway on how to train technicians, as the flow of new techs has slowed and the exodus continues," NJ CAR President Jim Appleton told Automotive News.

    Over the next six years, NJ CAR estimates, as many as 12,000 veteran techs will retire or otherwise leave their jobs at member dealerships. The apprenticeship program aims to help fill these vacancies and reduce tech turnover, says Breanna Datello-Esquilin, NJ CAR's director of work force development. More than 45 apprentices have gone through the program, she adds. "You're not just losing [young technicians] to another dealership, you're losing them to another field," Datello-Esquilin says. "They get discouraged after the first six months of working at the dealership and they leave, because we are not working hard enough to keep
    them. With proper recruitment, training and retention, job satisfaction will come."

    Wage supplement
    The apprenticeship program promotes technician careers, recruiting candidates from New Jersey technical schools and community colleges. It assigns apprentices as entry-level technicians in dealership service departments, where they work with and learn from veteran techs. Apprentices earn $15 an hour. During apprentices' first six months on the job, Datello-Esquilin says, the program supplements the $11 to
    $13 an hour that dealerships generally pay newly hired techs."We wanted to get the dealerships reimbursed for the difference so they would pay these new technicians $15 per hour, where before they typically wouldn't," she says. "In these six months, they would get on-the-job training and become better, so they are worth that $15 per hour." After six months, the dealership pays the apprentices $15.

    Content from Reynolds and Reynolds
    Andrews Cadillac eWorkflow™ Better Experience Testimonial
    “Being able to make a good impression on a customer is fundamental to our branding. We’re a locally-owned dealership and we want to have a long term relationship with our customers. read more
    NJ CAR also is working with schools and colleges to modernize their tech training curricula while it helps member dealerships and dealer groups create their own apprenticeship programs, Datello-Esquilin adds.
    She says she has placed six apprentices at Dayton Toyota, in South Brunswick, N.J., which is starting them as junior lube technicians. The dealership has created a dedicated training facility with its own instructor. Dealership technicians also are training apprentices several evenings each week, after their workdays end. NJ CAR is supplementing those techs' pay to provide instruction, although Datello-Esquilin declined to say how much.

    Hail to the state
    "It's one of the best programs that I've ever seen," says Michael Dooley, Dayton Toyota's fixed operations director. "Kudos to New Jersey for realizing that automotive technicians are in a crisis mode now." (The state labor department did not respond to repeated requests for comment on the tech apprenticeship program.)
    "For six months, maybe up to a year, I haven't been able to hire a single tech," Dooley adds. "We've tried numerous ways of finding them — through advertisements, job fairs and by other means." Dooley says the NJ CAR program has enabled him to hire the six apprentices and enroll another 10 techs at his dealership in the program, so they can learn new skills as they gain experience. ‘Real-world experience'

    "Each apprentice is working alongside mentors who observe and instruct them on what to look for while doing a certain job," he says. "It could be brakes, tires or diagnostics. It's real-world experience, with real technicians doing it every day. We realized we could mentor a student better than any school instructor could."
    https://www.autonews.com/service/nj-dealers-launch-tech-apprenticeships

    During the evening sessions, Dooley says, the apprentices work under their mentors' guidance on vehicles that service customers have dropped off, to relieve time pressures. Of the six new apprenticeships at Dayton Toyota, he adds, one has moved up to a flat-rate pay plan and "the second one will not be too far behind him."
    Justin Moran, 33, says he is thriving in the NJ CAR program as an apprentice at Sansone Toyota in Avenel, N.J. Moran left college to start a business with a friend that distributed and repaired cellphones.

    "We were amateurs, so we didn't really know how to run the business," Moran says. "We basically ran it into the ground. I found myself with no career and two kids to feed. A friend sent me a posting on Facebook by NJ CAR for a position as an apprentice at the dealership, and I felt it was a good thing for me to learn. "I had never even picked up an impact gun, but now I'm able to change brakes, I can do tire rotations, alignments, oil changes and even some troubleshooting," Moran adds. "One day, we were learning what a voltmeter does, and the next day I was using one on the job."

    Moran's workday at the dealership runs from 7:30 a.m. to 4 p.m. He attends two evening training sessions each week, from 6 to 9 p.m. He says the apprenticeship is helping him to embark on a clear career path at the dealership.
    Says Moran: "I like a job where if you put in the hard work, it's going to pay off."
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    NJ cost of living is astronomical. Minimum wage is $10. No wonder dealers can’t get techs. Gee, should I stand at a cash register in air conditioning for $10 or bust my hump in dirt, grease, and sweat for $1 more?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

Sign In or Register to comment.