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Comments
That's actually only correct if your test cut points use very poor limits such as 400ppm HC and 4%CO. Cars when working correctly blow near zero's in almost every phase of operation except cold start and during a hard acceleration. Today's engine control systems keep the input ratio's to the engine at lambda +/- .5% and that makes catalyst efficiency stay in the 99.5% range. The numbers that cars are allowed to produce today are so small they cannot be accurately measured with a small percentage tail pipe sampling. An FTP test collects every gas that leaves the car, seperates them and weights them and the specs get published in grams per mile.
Without emission controls there is no-way for anyone to build an engine that won't have NOx coming out of the tailpipe. "Mr Can Tune a Vortec" fails to consider that gas at all when he makes that comment.
I doubt it even if the tape passes muster. Dealership franchise laws are strong and it's not easy to revoke one. The dealer will probably blame GM for the problem too for not providing enough training nor enough warranty payments to allow the dealer to be able to afford to train and hire quality techs. :sick:
It took a bankruptcy for them to get rid of a bunch of dealers and many of those cancellations got unwound.
Many of the times are so low they should be investigated as to whether they are honest or not. It's wrong for the techs to engage in any practices similar to what the tape suggests, for any reason. It's just as wrong to have labor times that the average technician cannot make, let alone beat by a small margin. (That's how flat rate is supposed to work and reward someone for being efficient, it's not supposed to be a punishment because the manufacturer is paying this time)
The flat rate vs time & materials vs all the other pricing scheme arguments have been around for decades, but GM's (and the other automakers) position to "flat rate" warranty work offers a bit of schadenfreude to us consumers.
We don't want to pay an hourly rate for a newbie who's going to take three hours for a one hour job nor do we want to pay book rate for an hour job when the great tech has figured out how to do the job right the first time in ten minutes.
The other trigger is getting a bill from a service industry person for a diagnostic fee when they can't make a diagnosis ("they all do that") or they make an incorrect one.
The other problem that comes up with flat rate pricing is that if more issues are found, the price goes up (since flat rate isn't an estimate but a fixed charge). But if the issue turns out to be a simpler fix, the price never seems to go down. Time and materials solves the simple fix issue but could cost you big time if the problem is just one that's "completely" covered by the book rate.
Meanwhile the customers are frequently unhappy and the techs can't make enough money to retire on.
I don't actually feel that way---you pay a mechanic NOT for what he does, but for what he KNOWS. :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I once knew an absoulte crackerjack of a mechanic who worked for years in a Buick store. This guy was perhaps the best I have ever seen. He could pull a car into his bay, overhaul a Quadrajet carb and have it back in a stall in a half hour. He rarely if ever had a comeback and he fixed the cars the other guys couldn't.
He was so good he actually made the same yearly salery as the General Manager.
I know a former Buick dealership technician who had the highest score for the Buick Motor Division in the nation on the 1986 GM Master Technician examination. He was an ASE CMAT at 22 years old. When GM wasn't paying for diagnostics in the early eighties and had computers on all of their vehicles, he took it upon himself to go to college at night and worked on getting his associates degree in electronics. That training gave him the insight and helped him expand his skills and even without getting paid for the time that it took to do the diagnostics managed to be productive.
GM required their technicians to attend SET, Specialized Electronics Training before they could go to GM 30 training. This technician's dealer wouldn't send him to that school because his education in electronics (that he got on his own) greatly exceeded what was included in that class. So he never got to attend the GM30 platform class which included the 86 Buick Riverias that had the touch screen CRT (cathode ray tube) in the middle of the dash. BUT every one of those that had a nightmare issue within three states got sent to him.
HE WILL TELL YOU THAT
NO-ONE could properlly rebuild a quadrajet in 1/2 an hour. The cleaning time in the tank was a minimum of two hours alone.
retirelive on.Fixed it for you. I'll retire when they close the lid on the box........
It takes me @1.5 hours to tear down and reassemble a Q-Jet(not including cleaning). Isell's tech was probably just pulling the airhorn and freeing up the power piston as well as checking the primary jets- although you can make a small tool that lets you move the the piston up and down on an assembled Q-Jet(far from the best practice, but it will work in a pinch).
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I used to build a carb a day on top of everything else that I would normally be doing. The car didn't get "finished" until the following morning just in case the factory settings weren't good enough and needed some tweeking. Total time was usually in the three hour range, not including the cleaning. That included testing to make sure what was wrong with the vehicle. (I knew exactly what was wrong with the carb before it came off of the engine) Dissasembly, any repairs such as the throttle shaft bushings, reassembly and set all adjustments to specs, installation, and road test including on car "tune-up" adjustments. Then it sat overnight for the final test in the morning. I averaged less than one percent in comebacks, and the majority of those were choke coils that worked when they were tested but turned around and failed on me.
The primitive CRT touch screens on those Rivieras and later on early Reattas were a nightmare. They guys HATED them!
Getting stuck fixing all of those probably led him to leave that store!
Half an hour though he wasn't "rebuilding it". I was a young technician who had to forge my own way through back then and saw many "Cincinatti Carburetor Overhauls" that other guys collected their full four hours on. If a carb really did require more than just cutting the anti-tamper plugs out they had no idea how to repair it, let alone diagnose the exact failure before they took it off of the car.
The primitive CRT touch screens on those Rivieras and later on early Reattas were a nightmare. They guys HATED them!
LOL, now you have met someone that not only liked them and the way the scan tool was built right into the car, I repaired so many of them that I still have half of the wiring colors and connector pins memorized. Our shop foreman went to the GM 30 school, but never touched one after that. They were all mine, and so was every one in the zone that had a problem.
We didn't get paid at all for diagnostics back then so to try and be faster I sat down and started memorizing as many schematics as I could. It turned out that many of the circuits were somewhat standardized, and connector, ground, and splice locations followed a repeated pattern on every vehicle.
Many of those circuits still remain exactly the same today, which means the wires are still the same color and the functionality reasonably similar even if the pin ID's have changed. When I do remote diagnostics for another shop or for a random failure on the road it's always a little fun to watch someone's eyes when I can grab a main harness, and pull out a wire that I need to make a test on that will allow me to narrow down where a problem is and I do it from memory. Shifty was correct about paying for what we know, but at the same time you're still also paying for what we are doing.
I eventually left the dealership life and explain my reasoning with a series of articles titled "The Faces of Flat Rate". I'll post some of them here later.
Using a crappy product is choice. A 'pro' has no justification. A non 'Pro' has ignorance to fall back on. The non 'Pro' may have even thought it was a 'good' choice.
It didn't take me long to learn to bring them in running on empty.
Low fuel lights are my friend.
It looks like you want to do the exact opposite. You probably think that you could perform the service mistake free. With a few years experience, maybe, just maybe you could.
Using a crappy product is choice. A 'pro' has no justification. A non 'Pro' has ignorance to fall back on. The non 'Pro' may have even thought it was a 'good' choice.
I see that you can't comprehend where the pressure to be the cheapest for the consumer eventually leads to. I personally won't compromise and insist on quality with everything we put out the door. However the shops who have cheaper prices are way busier and applauded for being that way, until the averages catch up to them that is. But meanwhile they still make more money than we do.
Got any idea on how to fix that?
It didn't take me long to learn to bring them in running on empty.
OK so if you bring it in a with a performance or emissions issue that requires the vehicle to be road tested, and you intentionally drop off the car with an obsticle for the technician how does that work back in your favor?
Now instead of efficiently road testing and evaluating the cars performance I have to consider is it running lean because it's runnng out of fuel? Will I make it the distance that I need to road test this car without it quitting on me? Most of the time I'll have no choice but to stop and put gas into the car. Now your not only paying for the gas, but my time to pump it in too.
So now I can road test the car and have a better chance of not needing to walk back to the shop (which will cost you more money for my time if that happens, and I'll be towing it back which would cost you even more) In the back of my mind I fnd myself wondering if there are any other traps that I should be concerned about. If you weren't considerate enough to make sure there was gas in the car for testing, have you actually truthfully explained all of the symptoms? Now instead of simply getting to concentrate on the described vehicle issue I have to expand my awareness even more because I have to still fix the car but also not get caught by any other traps you have set intentionally or otherwise.
Low fuel lights are my friend.
I think Forrest Gump had a quote that would be appropriate right now.
No it isn't rocket science but anyone who has ever dialed the wrong phone number has proven without question that they are not capable of performing that service mistake free everytime. TJMHO.
It's just paying attention and screwing everything back in where it belongs.
OK, now you're showing just how much you really know.
If you double gasket
The filter? That's something that happens because of a lack of training. By drilling into the young technician how to develope a routine and stick to it no matter what that mistake is prevented. The routine is to simply take a clean rag and wipe the filter surface clean. If the old oil filter seal happens to stick to the block, the tech will feel it, and usually knock it loose. The proceedure eliminates the mistake.
or strip the oil pan
Again when has the young technician really had the correct proceedure which means grab a torque wrench and always replace the drain plug seal drilled into them and rewarded for following the proceedure? I'm willing to bet there is only one person active in this thread who routinely grabs a torque wrench for any fastener.
or drain out the Sabaru's transmission and then add double the oil to the engine....well, that has to do with a careless attitude, not intelligence.
Are you sure? There's no way that it couldn't be beacuse of under-pricing the service which results in rushing? There is no chance that it happened because of poor lighting? Are you sure that it never happened because everyone just assumes that it is mindless work and therefore didn't make sure the employee was familliar with the vehicle before assigning him/her the job?
I've never made the of mistake draining the wrong component (I have plenty of other mistakes that I can claim as my own). The reality is however given enough chances anyone can and ultimately will make that mistake. Really it would only take an event that overloads one's concentration, or as otherwise called, a well timed interruption to have it occur. As I said earlier, if you have ever dialed the wrong phone number then you have made the equivelant of that mistake, the difference is you didn't get crucified for that.
I'll take that bet; I even have a 1/4" drive Snap-On in/lbs wrench that I use when I tighten the valve cover nuts on my M10 engine or the worm drive clamps on the cold air intake on my Mazdaspeed 3- to name just two applications...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
The electronic torque angle wrenches are real time savers but pricey! (as much as $1000 for one of them)
For someone billing themselves as a diagnostic expert, you are making the assumption I brought my cars in for some performance or emissions related issue.
When you bring your car in for some normal maintenance and your get it back with 30 extra miles on it, next time you bring it back with the low fuel light on, even if it's to check the headlight fluid.
I doubt you have ever seen anyone push back against the stereotypes as I have been doing. I've gone out on a perfectly normal road test and had cars run out of fuel. One time the three mile walk back to the shop resulted in another car not being finished when it was promised and a number of other operational delays. Adding that kind of stress onto a job that is already a lot more challenging can ruin a whole day.
For someone billing themselves as a diagnostic expert, you are making the assumption I brought my cars in for some performance or emissions related issue.
Of course I expect driveability issues, especially random failures. But that isn't all that we do that requires a road test. Seating in brakes correctly takes about eight miles and a good twelve minute road test. The carbon fiber brakes on new Corvettes require much more than that and I have to get them over 800f and keep them there.
Then we have OBDII and emissions testing. If I have to complete monitors for a customer it may take your thrity mile road test to first prove why they are not running to completion, now repair the vehicle and another thirty mile drive to set them and then run and complete the emissions test and that is completely normal to have to do that. Now someone is going to think that means just go for a joy ride in their car. The reality is I'll not only have a scan tool connected and being monitored, it's quite common to have the four channel PICO scope connected to specific circuits at the same time that I'm actively counting seconds of specific driving conditions so that the car's computer commands a particular test to run. I routinely break $50K in tools and equipment with me on the road and it's all at risk for damage or if I have to walk, theft.
When you bring your car in for some normal maintenance and your get it back with 30 extra miles on it, next time you bring it back with the low fuel light on, even if it's to check the headlight fluid.
The majority of technicians are paid flat rate. Few shops charge correctly for the time required to properly road test a car because your pendulum will quickly swing from you don't want your car driven, to sure it needs driven but you don't want to pay for a technician's time to do it. I see very few instances of cars simply being driven to waste time. Techs rarely earn a good living and time spent joy riding would be unpaid time during the day. In many cases legitimate time spent road testing the technician isn't being paid which means cars actually don't get driven enough and that is one of the primary reasons for them to not be repaired correctly the first time, or the dreaded "fault not found, or could not duplicate symptom".
Not having gas in the car so that it can be evaluated totally for handling issues, saftey concerns as well as performance and emissions controls ranks right there with:
Car's that still have the drivers spit-toon sloshing in the cup holder,
Dirty diapers on the floor,
Windows too filthy to see out of,
Seat's that cannot be adjusted either because of a failure or maybe just because there is that much garbage in the car,
Dog hair everywhere,
Loaded weapons,
Drugs and associated items,
Farm yard droppings,,(that mostly occurs with trucks)
Tuesday, Oct 9th I road tested a car that came in for an oil change and other minor checks to get ready for winter. While on the road test a dog ran onto the road well in front of me. When I hit the brakes, not even trying to slow down rapidly a brake line that had corroded inside a bracket failed and the pedal went to the floor. If it had to happen it's better that it did it to me instead of my customer. Yea he had to pay to have the line repaired, but just think what that saved him.
Now if there wouldn't have been enough gas in the car, and I had not driven it?
And I have NEVER seen anyone use a torque wrench on a oil drain plug.
I've always replaced the crush washer every time and used common sense and feel when tightening up the drain plug. Never had a leak and never stripped one.
Between updated versions, such as my first two electronics, which were obsoleted by the torque angle electronics, (That's 4) the straight mechanical click type, 1/4" 2 of the 3/8" inch, 1/2". and 3/4" (That's 5 right there). My TPMS specialty wrenchs, OOPS, that's two so we are at my 11 and I haven't even counted the ones that I retired and took home, nor any of my transmission band adjustment torque wrenches.....
And I have NEVER seen anyone use a torque wrench on a oil drain plug.
You probably never saw anyone use one on GM's oil filter cover (the same one someone mentioned earler that was removed with a pair of channel locks, 25.6N/M etc. You also probably only recall ever sending one out for repair when someone broke something on the tool, meanwhile they should go out to verify their calibration every other year. Having extra tools makes the re-cals convenient.
People have NO idea but I know you do!
However, having said that, once you get used to using a torque wrench, it becomes a habit, like putting on a seat belt.
If your working circumstances are so bad, given your skill set, it should be easy to move into a better situation. Of course, sometimes there are other factors that make moving not practical.
Holy *bleep*! What is the victim of that beast?! :P
Me. :shades:
I hate when I have to use it because it usually means I'm dealing with heavy components. The wheel nuts on my flatbed tow-truck are 463 ft/lbs. In spite of how strong the impact guns say they are supposed to be, they cannot be trusted to tighten all of then nuts completely or evenly. The tires and wheels weigh somewhere between 150-200 lbs ea. They are a real wrestling match anymore.
BTW the wrench itself has it's own "cheater pipe" total length is around 6ft so that part isn't real bad.
Overall my working conditions are better than what most techncians have to endure, and that's because I have my own shop. I've never tried to be rich, I just want to be the best that I can be and enjoy fixing cars.
That being said the shop eats every penny that it produces today. If I didn't spend as much time teaching as I do it would not have survived during the last five years. Our shop survived because I supplemented the shops revenues by working 100/hr weeks. (Working in the shop, teaching, writing, traveling to classes, and study both for my own continuing education as well as class prep time). That kind of effort should have resulted in a career where I don 't have to see things like I have in some posts.
Isellhondas has it right when he wonders how we can afford the tools. It's gotten to the point today that we cannot afford what we need to be buying anymore in order to try and stay viable at the level we are at. Today we are narrowing our focus onto more specific manufacturers, specializing more and more on fewer makes and turning away those that simply don't make sense to try and support fully anymore. Our business model is dying and there is nothing that can stop that from happening.
I wind up collecting some specialized tools for each car I own. Some I sell off after the car is gone, but I keep most. It is very difficult to find room in my garage anymore.
Fairly steady: '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel, '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP / Rotating stock, but currently: '92 325i, '97 Alto Works, '96 Pajero Mini, '11 Mini Cooper S
The biggest hurdle that still needs to be cleared here in the MA RTR law is that a standard has to be achieved on how to get the data to repair shops. I wonder who is going to have to pay to develop the standard tools and how much it's going to cost the repair shops to access it.
Here's the funny thing. A compromise was reached in the RTR law and it was passed back in August. But it was too late to take the question off the ballet. So now both sides are running ads to just ignore the question, AAA is running ads to approve the measure and I'm going to vote NO just because I feel it's a stupid measure.
Need to update that discussion.
Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?
It's been hyped as being able to do so, but no it won't. The tools and information have been available for years. Shops, or should I say techs like myself stepped up and bought the tools that made sense to try and afford and spent the money to have access to the manufactures information websites see,
www.nastf.org
Our reward for making that effort has led us to where we are at today. The shops who drug their feet and held prices below the level that would have allowed for trade growth are busy but can only do general repairs. We have slowed and only see a steady diet of nightmare random failures.
Today that means, we no longer have the money to spend to try and keep pace with technology, and they won't spend what little they have and are comfortable walking away from anything but the easiest work. They will claim they are all for the consumers needs, right up to the moment the customer needs something technical like a loss of communication between modules diagnosed or a no-start because of a security system failure. Today neither of us can keep pace, they won't, we would but can't. Your going to lose both of us because of it.
It is a stupid measure, it won't fix a thing. I hope it passes, they deserve the headache it will cause trying to "fix" it.
That makes sense. I was wracking my brain to think of a component on a passenger vehicle that would require that kind of torque. Hopefully, you don't have to pull those things off too often! :sick:
Strut to spindle mounting bolts are the heaviest I can think of my my Buick. Don't remember the torque, but it was more than my 100 lb-ft wrench so we estimated it. My helped is used to working on tractor trailers so he had the feel for higher forces.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
None of us owner a torque wrench in those days so we just tightened the crap out of those nuts and put in the cotter pin.
Nothing bad ever happened.
One of the three had new a job before he went home. The other two we have yet to hear from with their intentions.
Maybe a conversion from metric (Nt-M) to English?
My '92 Nissan Sentra's from wheel axle nuts were something along that line, 250 ft-lbs IIRC.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive