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4WD and AWD systems explained

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  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Full-time, Part-time and off-road.
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Member Posts: 126
    You should see the weather today!! Black ice everywhere fresh rain and warm temps in the day and sub freezing at night. Nt to mention the 55 MPH winds we have today. Yes I will agree with you on the Ice. This was not sanded and wasa sheer horror to drive on. And Paisan, wasn't that old GL 4WD?? It's rare to se em, but there here. The JuSTY's, BRATS, AND GL's. Wasen't the SVX 4wd or was that AWD. See alot of them up here...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    the GL, Justy, Brats Loyals were all 4wd.

    XT was 4wd
    XT6, SVX, Legacy, Impreza, Outback are all AWD

    -mike
  • jd150jd150 Member Posts: 13
    Anyone have any input on mess. #448.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    John: I'll take an educated guess, but don't hate me if I'm wrong. ;-)

    I bet it's a part-time system. The Auto 4WD probably has automatic engagement of the front axle when needed, but part-time. I doubt it has a center differential, so it ought to be for slippery surfaces only.

    The 4WD High probably forces power to both axles, but should be used on slippery surfaces only. 4WD Low is the same but with much shorter gears.

    -juice
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    The Explorer Control-Trac is a permanent 4WD vehicle that uses a Multi-plate transfer clutch in place of a center differential.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Do you know who makes it? Does it have low-range?

    -mike
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    It has a two speed tranfer case, but I do not know who makes it. The Trooper is considered full-time 4wd instead of permanent 4WD. Full time 4wd systems offer 2wd mode, along with an automatic 4WD mode, plus 4WD High and Low modes for really tough going. Permanent 4WD vehicles have no 2WD mode, but still offer High and Low ranges. A good source of info on 4wd and AWD systems is Land Rover's "Authoritative Guide to Sport Utility Vehicles", which is available at Land Rover dealers. While it does have sections on Land Rover products, it also has specs on all mid and full size SUV's along with off-road tips and explanations of all the different 4WD/AWD systems along with other good stuff. The 2002 version will probably also include the mini SUV's now that Freelander is on the market.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Thanks for the info! I heard rumors that the Ford AWD system was built by Borg-Warner and was basically a TOD system that the trooper has except like the Vehicross it couldn't be put into 2wd. If someone does find out about that and it is built by borg-warner I'd endorse it whole-heartedly, even though I hate Fords entirely! :)

    -mike
  • jd150jd150 Member Posts: 13
    Thanks...I just got the 2002 Exp....I can tell you the 3 buttons are 4WD Auto, 4WD High, 4WD Low. The manual says Auto is for most conditions....High only for deep snow, mud, sand, etc. and Low for extreme conditions such as pulling a boat out of water, severe off road, etc. Also says High or Low is not to be used on non-slippery surfaces such as dry, or even just wet or partially snow covered roads. For your further analysis. Thanks again. John
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    The 4WD High and low settings must lock the clutch pack, taking the place of a diff lock. That is why you can't use it on no slippery surfaces, damaging component windup could occur.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    JD150 does it mention what the torque split is when it's in auto? The good ones put at least 15% power to the front when in auto-mode, the bad ones like the GM ones puts 0% to thefront until after slippage.

    -mike
  • jd150jd150 Member Posts: 13
    For 4WD Auto it says full power to the rear and to the front as needed....guess it's like the GM.
  • akroegerakroeger Member Posts: 16
    ...would you drive around town in Full Time 4WD or in 2WD? Is there any economy advantage to driving on the street in 2WD? Is there an operational or mechanical advantage to one or the other? Is it advisable to ocassionally switch between 2wd/Part Time 4wd/Full time 4wd to keep the transfer case linkage operating properly? If so, how often? (I understand the limits of Part Time 4WD operation.)
  • vin_weaselvin_weasel Member Posts: 237
    You can use the Full Time 4x4 if you want but on dry, clear pavement there isn't much difference besides a 1mpg or so drop in fuel efficiency. The vehicle will drive differently as well. I usually only switch to full time in rain, light snow or other in-between conditions.

    Personally, I like to work out the transfer case every once and a while by using Full & Part Time as well as Low. I've never heard it being necessary or that it makes any difference at all. Many of the people looking for parts for older (or broken ;) ) jeeps love the fact that so many people never use their transfer cases past 2wd. It's like getting a brand new one but just off of an older vehicle.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Just make sure if you're giving the different systems a work-out, you're not running part-time on non-slippery surfaces. Hopefully you know that, but some people don't and proceed to tear stuff up. My father-in-law has had several Jeeps/Trucks and he runs part-time alot, even during cross-over conditions. He's been lucky that he's not had trouble I guess.
  • markobodormarkobodor Member Posts: 17
    In earlier posts it was stated that some hills became so icy that nobody was able to make it up. Did it occur to anyone to put chains on?
  • jd150jd150 Member Posts: 13
    Would it be fair to say on the '02 Exp. the 4WD Auto is essentially AWD --the 4WD High and Low are essentially Part-Time systems with different gear ranges?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    RWD, FWD, .... NO problem, everyone understands

    Full-time 4WD... Traditionally, or historically, this has meant the ability to drive all four wheels with no threat of driveline damage. And that almost always meant three open diff'l, or some other type of "free-wheeling" arrangement wherein each of the four driven wheels could have different, independent, rotational rates.

    In other words the only time you really had 4WD was when all four wheels' traction was fairly close to equal, otherwise ALL of the engine torque would be routed to the wheel or wheels with the lowerest traction level.

    Part-time 4WD has some form of locking center diff'l/transfer case that does NOT ALLOW different turning rates bewteen the front driveline and the rear driveline. Ordinarily when turning a corner the front driveline will turn at a different rate than the rear, since in this case it absolutely cannot then something else must "give". That's where the LTS, Low Traction Surface comes in, it allows slippage between the tires and the surface so the driveline will not be damaged.

    You might want to think of that LTS as your center "open" diff'l, because that is exactly the function it provides.

    AWD should really be called AAWD, Automatic All Wheel Drive. Some mechanical arrangement is made such that the majority of the time the front driveline and the rear driveline can have fully independent rotational rates. With the older 4WD systems it was the operator who determined the roadbed conditions and took the appropreate action. In one way or another today's AWD system actually "detect" roadbed traction conditions and "adjust" automatically.

    The Ford AWD Aerostar, bless it's poor departed soul, had a "normal" torque distribution of 30/70 F/R and if the ECU detected rear wheel slippage it was electronically switched to 50/50.
  • jd150jd150 Member Posts: 13
    Thanks WWest...I still would like to know if my analysis in Post# 469 is correct. Anyone??
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I wouldn't call the Auto-4wd AWD, since no power is being applied to the front axle before slippage. The advantage of AWD over 4wd and auto-4wd is that since it is applying some power to the non-main drive axle, the vehicle is less likely to loose grip at all.

    -mike
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Traditionally we had part-time mode and full-time mode and the operator had to visually and otherwise determine the roadbed conditions and only engage the part-time system if the surface upon which the vehicle was operating was appropreately low traction.

    The vehicle operator was in the LOOP. Not an automatic system by any means.

    Most of today,s AWD systems do not require any operator intervention, they are self-determing and self-activating, AUTOMATIC.

    Maybe it should be "A4WD".
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    On reading your post again I see my point of departure/confusion.

    You're trying to distinghish between AWD, as in the HL, RX, MDX, and a vehicle that slips into 4WD FROM 2WD automatically.

    Is there even one of those in the market?

    If one does exist I would think it would go immediately into locked 4WD mode on slippage detection, but then how would it know when to safely return to 2WD?

    That's the advantage of the Ford Aerostar system, if no slippage occurs in 50/50 it will "test" for LTS after a time by returning to 30/70.
  • thewildmanthewildman Member Posts: 13
    WWest, Yes there is plenty of vehicules that use the Auto-4WD. Out of my head, Volvo S60AWD, Volvo CrossTerrain, Acura MDX, Infinity QX4/Nissan Pathfinder, many American SUV (some are called Fulltime 4WD and others Fulltime AWD - depending if it can be switched in/out of that mode manually)- they use the same principal). All of those vehicule when in Auto-4WD will pass from 2WD to 4WD and vice-versa. Note that the center Diff/Tranferse Case are not lock by any means, meaning that the output vary constantly from back to front (or front to back). To achieve that, they use sensors (throttle position, RPM, ABS, G Force sensors, etc...,etc...) to detect slippage and to transfert the correct amouth of torque to the other axle smoothly. Some are even proactive, meaning that in some case, the system can put some torque on both axle even if there is no slippage. But the system will always try to go back to 2WD whenever the road condition permits it. I personaly own a vehicule that use that Auto4WD (2WD-Auto4WD-4Hi-4Low), and it works flawlessly. And the time needed for the system to transfert torque is not existant, meaning that its near realtime. Of course some system are better than others, but in overall those system always do the job in most situation*. *For off-roading I would suggest to lock the center diff/Transfert case.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    What I meant was: Is there any vehicle out that that goes from PURELY 2WD to 4WD/AWD and back again automatically? I was trying, (granted, didn't do a very good job) to rule out vehicles that always remain in 4WD/AWD and just allocate the majority of the torque to the "primary" drive axle.
  • thewildmanthewildman Member Posts: 13
    All those vehicule out there with a switch 2WD-Auto4WD-4Hi-4Low, are vehicule that are mostly 2WD except when switch in 4WD Mode. A good exemple: Infiniti QX4 / Nissan Pathfinder. That vehicule can be put in any of these mode, including the Auto4WD. So basically, when driving on dry surface the user have the choice of either driving it in 2WD only or in Auto4WD (in Auto4WD unless the raod condition are really bad (in that case, it will put some torque to the front axle), the vehicule will remain in 2WD). And then, you have the 4Hi-4Low that locks the center diff/transfert case for off-roading purpose or on really low traction surface.

    Vehicule that are always in 4WD/AWD mode (no 2WD only mode) most Volvo AWD vehicule, another one is the Acura MDX. These vehicule are Full Time AWD , they put most of the torque on the front wheels exept when slippage occurs, they then transfert some power to the back wheels or they can also send torque to the back wheels in some condition even if there is no slippage ie.: at a stop sign/red light.

    There is alot of way to implement Auto4WD/AWD on a vehicule, so each model has its own subtilities, but at the end - it is more or less the same, as the principal system that will keep you on the road whatever are the condition, is yourself.

    Hope that I'm answering your question.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The question was are there any vehicles that AUTOMATICALLY switch from 2Wd to 4WD/AWD without operator intervention.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    WWest those are the auto-4wd vehicles ones I know of include:

    Explorer
    Envoy
    Tahoe
    Trailblazer
    CRV
    Escape
    Tribute
    QX4/Pathfinder (with auto-4wd option)
    MDX (100% fwd til slippage)

    Ones that put *some* power to both axles at all times when in AWD Mode:
    ML series and 4-matic MBs
    BMW 3series and X5
    Trooper
    Subarus
    Axiom
    Sequioa
    Montero, Montero Sport
    Toyota Land Cruiser
    Audi Quattros

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I know the CR-V and Escape work that way. Full-time systems like Subaru's aren't ever really in 2WD.

    mike's list looks just about right. Add Mercedes-Benz 4Matic to the bottom list.

    -juice
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I don't know anything about the others, but doesn't the Explorer have a switch that must be moved from 2WD to 4WD?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Doesn't it have an Auto-4wd mode now? At least recent editions I've seen have either permenant 4wd (AWD) or auto-4wd/2wd/4wd-lo.

    -mike
  • jd150jd150 Member Posts: 13
    I have the 2002 Exp....it has the 3 buttons...4WD Auto...4WD High....4WD Low. No 2WD.
  • heatwave3heatwave3 Member Posts: 462
    paisan: On your AWD list you should add the GMC Denali, Denali XL and Cadillac Escalade. All three of these GMC SUVs have permananent AWD with 38%/62% power distribution between the front and rear respectively.

    They also have a limited slip rear differential and a limited slip viscous center differential with an open front differential. There are no buttons to push and there is nothing for the driver to decide upon. The effect of the setup is a minimum 38% power distribution to the front tires all the time.

    The limited slip rear ensures the rear tire with better traction gets the power and the limited slip center diff distributes power automatically between the front and rear tires, favoring the end with better traction.

    While there is no low 4wd setup, this drivetrain setup assures the vehicle will always have power to at least three tires even under the worst conditions and there is no time needed for any power transfer since its present all the time.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Forgot about the Denali/escalade vehicles with AWD. Although there is no center locker/nor low range which I'd like to see on em. The Denali would be darn near perfect if they would just put in a beefed up (to handle more torque) T-case from the Trooper's TOD system.

    -mike
  • p_g_00p_g_00 Member Posts: 34
    So 4Runner has multi-mode 4WD while Pathfinder LE has all-mode 4WD, both can be used on dry pavement, correct? What's in PF SE? old fashion part time 4WD that will lock center diff?
  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    I would be interested in anyone's opinion on the difference in effectiveness, in real-life, snow/ice situations, of the CR-V's system vs. a mainstream FWD sedan with traction control. Let's use an Accord for comparison, to stay within the same manufacturer. And would the Accord be at least as effective as a FWD/RWD vehicle with LSD?
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Traction control on 2WD, assuming all else the same, is not as effective as 4WD. The reason is simple: with 4WD, the vehicle divides torque over twice as many wheels as with 2WD.


    Now, the CR-V's system is a part-time 4WD system. While this system does work for most road conditions, it is not as effective as full-time 4WD because the system needs to slip before activating.


    Finally, LSD serves a similar purpose as traction control by transfering torque from the spining wheel to the other. The main difference is that traction control uses brakes to slow the spining wheel. The main drawback is that you loose energy through braking heat. A LSD, on the other hand, uses a locking mechanism to transfer power.


    Here's a very good summary on 4WD:


    http://4x4abc.com/4WD101/need.html


    Note that the CR-V falls under the category of "True AWD" or TOD.


    Ken

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not only that. 2WD sends twice as much torque to half as many wheels. So say you have 200 ft-lbs, a FWD vehicle sends 100 ft-lbs to each front wheel (let's ignore the open diff for this argument). That's a lot of power to put down on a slippery surface, and it's more likely to break traction.

    An AWDer would send just 50 ft-lbs to each wheel, and that makes each wheel less likely to break traction. Add to that the fact that the job to get your vehicle moving is divided into four contact patches instead of two.

    But the CR-V starts out as FWD, and then gets traction assistance from the rear wheels. I still think this is better than FWD+traction control, though not as good as systems sending power to both axles proactively.

    It's hard to compare an Accord to a CR-V because they carry different tires. I bet the one with better tires (for snow) would win.

    -juice
  • barnonebarnone Member Posts: 118
    IMHO, the RT4WD of CR-V is definitely better than the Accord w/ Traction Control. Reason here is that if both the front tires have 0% traction, a FWD car would not move at all. Whereas the CR-V would have both rear tires powered, thus pushing the car forward (or backward if in Reverse).

    The RT4WD is a reactive system which benefits a vehicle 99% of the time. Why? Why do I need 4WD if my front tires do not slip at all?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Anyone out there with FWD and traction that can answer this question?

    Does the FWD traction control work by dethrottling the engine, as the Cadilac does, or does it apply the front brakes, individually(?), or simulatneously?
  • barnonebarnone Member Posts: 118
    Nissan' Z-traction control does lower engine power, while others apply brakes to the wheels.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Nissan actually use's subaru's VDC system IIRC on the new maxima. I think FWD Traction Control depends on which make/model you are talking about as to weather or not it uses brakes, brakes & throttle or just throttle.

    -mike
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    The RT4WD is a reactive system which benefits a vehicle 99% of the time. Why? Why do I need 4WD if my front tires do not slip at all?


    That statement is true only when looking at 4WD/AWD as a means to get your vehicle moving from slippery surfaces.


    The other major benefit to full-time 4WD/AWD is during cornering. By having both the rear and front tires powered, you can acheive more neutral handling characteristics than with a FWD vehicle.


    Check out the right column on the same website:

    http://4x4abc.com/4WD101/need.html


    That's why many performance vehicles from Porsche and Audi employ AWD transmissions.


    RT4WD is okay for getting you moving in snow, for example, but it doesn't help during cornering. In fact, the system would bind during turns.


    Ken

  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    In view of what some of you have said, would it be accurate to assume that on snow/ice, traction control would actually be more effective than LSD since traction control (thru the use of brakes or otherwise) would in effect reduce power output at the drive wheels (hence reduce the tendency for the wheels to break traction) whereas LSD would simply re-distribute the power?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why 4WD when the front aren't slipping? To eliminate torque steer. The first CR-V didn't have that problem, but some have complained that the new one does.

    On the LSD vs. T/C, it depends. Traction control is only as good as the software. The best systems are very good and manage the axle very effectively. The systems weigh very little and can use existing ABS hardware, but it's all in the programming. They can also heat up the brakes, and could potentially create brake fade in prolonged use.

    LSDs are split into two main categories: torque sensing (torsen) and viscous. Torsens are wonderful for the track because they distribute power quickly with little loss. Their achilles' heel is that in zero friction they are useless, i.e. no good for icy conditions. They also tend to be heavier and more enpensive.

    A viscous LSD takes longer to act. They are fluid filled and the fluid heats up and shears very quickly, so send power to the other side. They are effective in snow and ice. They are also light and inexpensive.

    So, T/C is good for ice, VLSD is good for ice, and torsen is best for the track. Each has its stregths and weaknesses.

    -juice
  • canadianclcanadiancl Member Posts: 1,078
    Very clearly explained. You must be an automotive engineer.
  • markobodormarkobodor Member Posts: 17
    Last weekend at Tahoe there was a sheet of ice then a foot of snow on top: Navigators, Subarus, Explorers, Toyota 4wd trucks were all getting stuck! I had an Audi Allroad with snow-tires - no problem until I tried to repeat a maneuver I did with my - yes, believe it or not, rear wheel drive Porsche 944 with snow tires - that is to drive up the ski slope. Well, the front end of the allroad just sank into the soft snow of the ski slope while the rear wheels were on relatively hard ground on the snow covered parking lot. Now if I ever reached this limit with my Porsche, I would just place it in reverse and the rear wheels, with most of the weight of the car on them and being on relatively hard ground, would just pull me out. Not so with the AWD Allroad, the front wheels "sensed" more resistance from all the snow around them, so the AWD sent all the power to the front wheels, which just spun and spun and not power would go to the back. I tried going back from forward to reverse, turned off the ESP, jacked up the car to the highest height air suspension mode, all to no avail. For a brief second, the rear wheels engaged and the car lurched back a foot or so, but I could not convince it to send power to the back. In the end I got pulled out by a "Pisten-Bully", that is a Swiss-made Sno-Cat ski slope grooming machine (and paid the driver $20 for me and $20 for the Toyota 4WD (without snow tires) who was connected to me while trying to get me out). I guess in the future, I'll just stick to my 2800 lb Porsche with fat "snow shoe" tires that can climb on anything for such maneuvers. Moreover, the 50/50 weight distribution of the Porsche I find to be safer when braking on windy snow-covered mountain roads. The only problem with driving it is that everyone thinks you are an idiot and have no idea what you are doing in the snow. Nevertheless, in seven years of going to Tahoe and preferring to drive in huge snow-storms, I only needed to put chains on to satisfy the highway patrol and never, not once, got stuck - not that getting stuck would have been the end of the world or the ultimate fear of what it seems are those who seek the "security" of AWD, but do not realize that nobody gets killed by getting stuck in the snow - it's just "un-macho" - but lots of people get killed by losing traction because of poor braking/poor traction caused by mediocre (read "mud & snow")tires as opposed to dedicated snow tires. Just last weekend, a young woman was killed when her Toyota SUV slipped going down the hill from Alpine Meadows Ski area. She was no doubt going too fast for the conditions and believed, like most of my friends, that being in an SUV with 4WD or AWD is inherently safer than for instance a sports car with specialized snow-tires, 50/50 weight distribution, and low center of gravity going down a twisty mountain road.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Something doesn't seem to make sense here. I think your audi may have a problem. I'm not sure how the Audi AWD system works, but I know on my subie and my trooper, that if the front wheels were spinning, the power would be sent to the rear wheels because the speed sensors would realize that the fronts where spinning and take the power and send it to the rear. Second thought ont he all-road, I hope it is a lease, cause if not eventually you are going to be cursing the air-suspension. I have 2 subarus with air-suspension and eventually the rubber will go bad on the all-road and you will not enjoy the price for replacements bladders :)

    Another thought, how could your porsche have plowed through as deep a snow as the all-road? You would have most likely gotten stuck earlier on due to the low ride height. You say you tried the exact same manuver with the porsche as the audi, I take it you did the same manuver on the same day at the same time, etc, etc. Or else your arguement just can't wash, conditions are always different.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No, I just read a lot, but you're welcome. :-)

    No fair comparing one car with snow tires to another without them. Snow tires are a major factor, of course. Plus, in climbing hills, most of the weight transfers to the rear anyway.

    A 944 is close enough to the ground that it becomes a snow plow, though. :-)

    -juice
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