I stand corrected, alloys standard on the 'bu. The local dealer has the cheapest one priced at around $20.5k so they're not bottom feeding either, at least at that dealer.
As usual, tlong, I believe you are fully aware that their rating on the Impala is the first time in decades....decades...that they've come to a conclusion like that.
And there's NO Chance that perhaps, just perhaps, there could be a valid reason for that? Perhaps the same reason GM failed as a company?
I believe imidazo's view is the mirror image of your post--that you guys think foreign corruption in the auto industry is OK, but in your own country--terrible!!!!
No, I think corruption is bad everywhere.
Yet corruption disrupts the natural order of things. You can combat corruption with better products.
There are plenty of things we might call corruption that can be "the way things are done" in a particular culture. While we rail against foreign corruption, think of how certain things work in the US:
- The NSA watches all of our mail, email, phone conversations, location tracking, social media postings, etc. We are constantly surveilled.... - The biggest US companies regularly donate to all of the politicians to influence how laws and regulations are made - The government bails out failed companies, and then provides years of tax breaks to them that their competitors don't get... - Petty criminals go to jail for selling joints to their friends. White-collar bankers make up financial products that sink millions of individuals' lives and homes and they walk away free, with golden parachutes
There is just as much "corruption" in the US as in many other places.
"My point originally was that for all the non-stop talk about how the Japanese manufacturers are every bit as American as the Detroit guys, the tsunami absolutely, positively put a bigger hurt on them than any domestic manufacturer--even for their models built here. "
Yes, it did, in that one particular case.
Like I pointed out earlier, just because the Big-3 didn't get damaged as much is as much luck as anything else. Let the Korean Peninsula heat up with a shooting war, or let China start playing hardball in the S. China Sea, and we might find out just how much that same Big-3 outsources much of its "domestic" production to Asia.
Even the most basic automobile contains dozens of micro-processors in it, and very few (if any at all) are made on-shore. Even the US military is concerned that many of the components used in our high-tech weaponry are made off-shore, in countries that may not be out allies in times of war.
If multi-billion dollar weapons systems aren't using 100% domestic parts, one can bet the average car (built with costs control in mind in order to make a profit) is using parts made as cheaply as possible... And that would mean off-shore for many of those parts.
Japanese manufacturers' production was significantly more affected by the tsunami than the domestic manufacturers
But not as much as domestic fans might think.
Camry was the best selling car that year, Sienna was the best selling van, I think Corolla was up there. Their made-in-the-US volume models were not nearly as affected as you imply.
"As usual, tlong, I believe you are fully aware that their rating on the Impala is the first time in decades....decades...that they've come to a conclusion like that.
And they (CR) are perfectly correct. It was a rental car, tried and true before that.
The 4 I listed were from the 2013 Buying Guide, but I checked in previous years and GM has led at least 2 vehicle classes every single year from 2008 to 2013.
CR has consistently had at least a couple of GM vehicles at the top, even more if you expand that to all domestic brands.
We talk about bias against domestics, bias against imports, but nothing comes even close to the bias against Consumer Reports. Not even close!
I'm basing this on reports at the time, not just going from memory. It was how you guys said that was the only reason the Malibu was the best-selling car in the country. That darn tsunami!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
When was the Malibu a best seller? IIRC, the Cruze was the best selling compact for 1 month after the tsunami hit, but not the Bu...
Still, you don't detect one bit of irony there?
Edit: Did a search and you are correct, it was the #1 selling car in May of 2011, right after the tsunami hampered Honda and Toyota models. BTW, the Nissan Altima was also #1 selling car A few months that year too, but my instincts tell me that isn't relevant to the scope of your argument...
Per that link, full inventories at the Japanese automakers didn't return until "late in the year".
All I'm saying is, for the mantra that is repeatedly mentioned that the Japanese makers are every bit as American as the Detroit makers, there is no disputing that the tsunami affected those makers, even for the products built here, more than the Detroit makers.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I remember the Avalanche and probably the Traverse, but don't remember others than those two. The one poster mentioned Corvette, but I bet it's been yeeeaaarrrrrs since CR has tested a Corvette.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Now that's a great improvement. Looks like the Malibu wasn't a segment leader. That would be the Camry, highest American content.
However, here is one of the reasons why GM is improving:
"FORTUNE -- Mary Barra has one directive for her employees: "The simple thing I say to them is, No more crappy cars, and that resonates."
The phrase is part of a broader approach GM's EVP of global product development and global purchasing and supply chain has taken in empowering her employees. Before "boundaries were put on them, and we didn't give them the recipe for success," she said during Fortune's Most Powerful Women Summit on Wednesday. "Now we're saying no excuses." The results, she says, are visible on the road today for GM."
This was interesting as well from your post:
"Toyota Motor Corporation's Lafayette B Plant (SIA) in Indiana, which produces the Toyota Camry, receives the Platinum Plant Assembly Line Quality Award for producing models that yield the fewest defects or malfunctions. Plant awards are based solely on average levels of defects and malfunctions and exclude design-related problems."
Text of part of the recall: "Water from the air-conditioning condenser unit housing could leak onto the airbag control module and cause a short circuit, resulting in illumination of the airbag warning light," said Toyota in a statement on Thursday. "In some instances, the airbag(s) could become disabled or could inadvertently deploy.
"In limited instances, the power steering assist function could also become inoperable if a communication line in the airbag control module is damaged."
Toyota said loss of power assist results in increased steering effort.
"In limited instances, the power steering assist function could also become inoperable if a communication line in the airbag control module is damaged."
"Toyota said loss of power assist results in increased steering effort."
That happened on my '03 Yukon Denali while driving! No recall, just "Surprise, No Steering!"
You've got to admit though, mechanically, there is no reason an Avalanche would be different than a Silverado, Tahoe, or Suburban. The difference is the 'gateway', but really, how much difference could that make in reliability? (I admit that the mags said it was a neat convenience thing, though I didn't like the looks of the Avalanche).
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I think the Avalanche always had the 5.3 standard, with the 6.0 optional, so that would at least take the 4.3 and 4.8 out of the mix.
I don't know that the 4.3 or 4.8 were troublesome, though. The 4.3 did have intake manifold problems but hell, it seems just about every engine has had some issue with the intakes, once they started going to plastics.
I wonder if they used the stronger 4L80E transmission in the Avalanche, as well?
I think the Suburban has used the 5.3 as standard for ages now, but for awhile, the Tahoe was using the 4.8 as standard.
I didn't like the looks of the first Avalanche, that "angry appliance" look that ended up carrying over to the rest of the Chevy pickups for 2003. But I thought the front-end that they used for the 2nd-gen Avalanche, which I believe was also used on the Tahoe and Suburban, was handsome.
If anything, I would think that midgate would have added complexity and caused the Avalanche to suffer with reliability problems, as well as air and water leaks, but apparently GM did their homework and got it right.
Speaking of production offshore, I just bought some ink printer cartridges last night. The cost was $57! I open the package and a label on the cartridge reads "MADE IN MALAYSIA." It probably cost $2 to make with sweatshop 3rd world labor and they charged $57! Talk about a fantastic profit for H-P!
It's funny the [non-permissible content removed] for tat on recalls and quantities, when IMHO and as many other posters have said, recalls can be as good as they are bad. Proactivity is a good thing and many of the problems solved by recalls are minor, or only rare potential issues.
Once I saw the original Toyota recall post, and then I saw Circle's GM post, I said to myself "the response will be that the Toyota number was a lot larger". And I was correct!
Of course, if there's a problem with a vehicle then the quantity recalled (if the problem affects them all) is a function of the number sold. So of course the maker with the most sales of the model will have more recalls.
They way to have fewer of a model recalled is to have a has-been model. Then their aren't many to recall.
You've got to admit though, mechanically, there is no reason an Avalanche would be different than a Silverado, Tahoe, or Suburban. The difference is the 'gateway', but really, how much difference could that make in reliability?
I think we've been down this long tortuous road before...
GM pick ups are made in various plants. Was the Avalanche only made in one or two? Maybe it was an assembly plant thing? I actually have a friend who drives GM pick ups. He switched to an Avalanche but only kept it maybe two years because it was troublesome. Now he's back to a Silverado. Nothing scientific about this, but it can give you pause.
Speaking of production offshore, I just bought some ink printer cartridges last night. The cost was $57! I open the package and a label on the cartridge reads "MADE IN MALAYSIA." It probably cost $2 to make with sweatshop 3rd world labor and they charged $57! Talk about a fantastic profit for H-P!
I believe I read something in the last couple of years that (completely seriously) the printer ink business profits are propping up the other parts of the company.
Nothing scientific about this, but it can give you pause.
Yeah, sometimes even the supposedly more "reliable" products can give you issue. For example, the one GM transmission I've ever had fail, personally, was in a 1982 Cutlass Supreme. And it was the sturdier, more reliable THM350 unit! My family has had three of the supposedly weaker THM200 versions, and never any trouble. The THM200 in my 1980 Malibu never gave any issues in the 100,000 miles we had it. The THM200R4 in my grandmother's '85 LeSabre went 157,000 miles without incident, and the one in Mom's '86 Monte Carlo was still fine when I got t-boned in it with 192,000 miles!
Yet, I had that Cutlass's THM350 rebuilt around 61,000 miles, soon after I bought it. To be fair, it was 11 years old when I bought it and I only paid $800 for it, so previous owner neglect could have been a bigger factor here than how well GM's quality control was.
The Silverado owner works in the trade and beats the crp out of his truck, it's his workhorse. They get abused and put away wet.
I would think that most "real" work trucks would be 3/4 ton, 1-ton, and heavier, and not the mass-market 1/2 ton poseurs like my Ram. But then again, maybe not. Back in 2005 when I had my garage built, the crew that did it, who came from Eastern Ohio, were driving a Silverado half-ton with just a 4.8, and I think it had about 200,000 miles on it. And he was towing a utility trailer with it. He said he would buy his trucks used, and usually take them to around 200-300K miles, or whenever they got all used up.
Oddly, the Avalanche, which is more of a "toy" only came with the 5.3 or 6.0 V-8, fairly big, powerful engines. Yet the "work" trucks would often just have a 4.8 or the V-6.
I believe I read something in the last couple of years that (completely seriously) the printer ink business profits are propping up the other parts of the company.
Yep - it's the old razor and blades market. Give away the razor and make money on the blades.
Did we complain about getting the printer for $99?
"Did we complain about getting the printer for $99?"
Not the Brother HL-2270-DW laser printer which has cartridges that last 3 time longer the the HP-5610 I have. Both were around the same price but I only use the HP for color prints now. Everything else goes to the Brother. Cartridge is long lasting for about 6 months at $45.
Comments
And there's NO Chance that perhaps, just perhaps, there could be a valid reason for that? Perhaps the same reason GM failed as a company?
Seems like a pretty good correlation to me.
And I wasn't speaking specifically of the Impala. When they did even rate any domestic at the top?
Not in my memory...until this year's Chevy.
No, I think corruption is bad everywhere.
Yet corruption disrupts the natural order of things. You can combat corruption with better products.
There are plenty of things we might call corruption that can be "the way things are done" in a particular culture. While we rail against foreign corruption, think of how certain things work in the US:
- The NSA watches all of our mail, email, phone conversations, location tracking, social media postings, etc. We are constantly surveilled....
- The biggest US companies regularly donate to all of the politicians to influence how laws and regulations are made
- The government bails out failed companies, and then provides years of tax breaks to them that their competitors don't get...
- Petty criminals go to jail for selling joints to their friends. White-collar bankers make up financial products that sink millions of individuals' lives and homes and they walk away free, with golden parachutes
There is just as much "corruption" in the US as in many other places.
Yes, it did, in that one particular case.
Like I pointed out earlier, just because the Big-3 didn't get damaged as much is as much luck as anything else. Let the Korean Peninsula heat up with a shooting war, or let China start playing hardball in the S. China Sea, and we might find out just how much that same Big-3 outsources much of its "domestic" production to Asia.
Even the most basic automobile contains dozens of micro-processors in it, and very few (if any at all) are made on-shore. Even the US military is concerned that many of the components used in our high-tech weaponry are made off-shore, in countries that may not be out allies in times of war.
http://quicksearch.dla.mil/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=119791
If multi-billion dollar weapons systems aren't using 100% domestic parts, one can bet the average car (built with costs control in mind in order to make a profit) is using parts made as cheaply as possible... And that would mean off-shore for many of those parts.
The piping on the seats looks great.
A good start/stop system is also a nice enhancement. That doesn't improve EPA numbers but real-world MPG does improve.
That happened to VW after the tsunami.
And the black paint was for a Ford Super Duty, of all things.
Small world.
But not as much as domestic fans might think.
Camry was the best selling car that year, Sienna was the best selling van, I think Corolla was up there. Their made-in-the-US volume models were not nearly as affected as you imply.
That is simply not true.
You don't read CR, so you shouldn't make absolute claims like that.
The Avalanche was their top rated pickup for years and years. It only lost that title when GM discontinued it.
Corvette was at the top of their high-end sports cars, too, and that was the outgoing model.
Traverse was at the top of their Large SUV class as well.
Silverado was at the top of their HD diesel pickup also.
CR had GM at the top of 4 different classes of vehicles.
A lot of CR critics haven't truly read the magazine in decades...decades.
GM has always done certain things well.
And they (CR) are perfectly correct. It was a rental car, tried and true before that.
Even you can see that, can't you?
Sheesh!;)
The 4 I listed were from the 2013 Buying Guide, but I checked in previous years and GM has led at least 2 vehicle classes every single year from 2008 to 2013.
CR has consistently had at least a couple of GM vehicles at the top, even more if you expand that to all domestic brands.
We talk about bias against domestics, bias against imports, but nothing comes even close to the bias against Consumer Reports. Not even close!
Yes, they certainly do bankruptcy well, that's for sure. Took decades to do it so perfectly!
I'm talking cars in the middle of the market...subcompacts, compacts, intermediates, full-sizes.
When did they last test a Corvette? Really?
BTW, I frequently thumb through CR at the store...along with other car mags I can look at for free there and at the doctor's and dentist's offices.
Still, you don't detect one bit of irony there?
Edit: Did a search and you are correct, it was the #1 selling car in May of 2011, right after the tsunami hampered Honda and Toyota models. BTW, the Nissan Altima was also #1 selling car A few months that year too, but my instincts tell me that isn't relevant to the scope of your argument...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/industry-news/chevrolet-malibu-top-selling-c- ar-in-may-22591
Per that link, full inventories at the Japanese automakers didn't return until "late in the year".
All I'm saying is, for the mantra that is repeatedly mentioned that the Japanese makers are every bit as American as the Detroit makers, there is no disputing that the tsunami affected those makers, even for the products built here, more than the Detroit makers.
And I'll add, it's ok to admit mistakes.
Well... then CR must still be biased....but only in certain vehicle classes!!
http://www.jdpower.com/content/press-release/3WScQEz/2013-j-d-power-initial-qual- ity-study.htm
However, here is one of the reasons why GM is improving:
"FORTUNE -- Mary Barra has one directive for her employees: "The simple thing I say to them is, No more crappy cars, and that resonates."
The phrase is part of a broader approach GM's EVP of global product development and global purchasing and supply chain has taken in empowering her employees. Before "boundaries were put on them, and we didn't give them the recipe for success," she said during Fortune's Most Powerful Women Summit on Wednesday. "Now we're saying no excuses." The results, she says, are visible on the road today for GM."
This was interesting as well from your post:
"Toyota Motor Corporation's Lafayette B Plant (SIA) in Indiana, which produces the Toyota Camry, receives the Platinum Plant Assembly Line Quality Award for producing models that yield the fewest defects or malfunctions. Plant awards are based solely on average levels of defects and malfunctions and exclude design-related problems."
Of course, a Corvette recall that was three years old was posted on the GM forum as a new recall, so I can't say I'm surprised.
BTW, the Toyota recall is four times the number of vehicles of the four-month old recall you posted this morning.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20131009/CARNEWS/131009792
I don't post old recalls; only ones that just happened.
Those two recalls you posted, combined, are still about 1/4 the number of cars Toyota recalled yesterday...all late-models, too.
Not sure if you saw this one.
"Water from the air-conditioning condenser unit housing could leak onto the airbag control module and cause a short circuit, resulting in illumination of the airbag warning light," said Toyota in a statement on Thursday. "In some instances, the airbag(s) could become disabled or could inadvertently deploy.
"In limited instances, the power steering assist function could also become inoperable if a communication line in the airbag control module is damaged."
Toyota said loss of power assist results in increased steering effort.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Toyota said loss of power assist results in increased steering effort."
That happened on my '03 Yukon Denali while driving! No recall, just "Surprise, No Steering!"
It's based on the Suburban and had a lot of unique features for Harry Homeowner (CR's target audience).
Any how, CR has liked plenty of GM products, 4 were top rated last year.
That lasted one single month.
VW lost sales since they couldn't put any tech options in their SUVs.
Ironically Ford still had the best selling truck series, and Camry was the best selling car.
Lexus lost far more sales than Toyota did since more of their cars were made in Japan.
I don't know that the 4.3 or 4.8 were troublesome, though. The 4.3 did have intake manifold problems but hell, it seems just about every engine has had some issue with the intakes, once they started going to plastics.
I wonder if they used the stronger 4L80E transmission in the Avalanche, as well?
I think the Suburban has used the 5.3 as standard for ages now, but for awhile, the Tahoe was using the 4.8 as standard.
I didn't like the looks of the first Avalanche, that "angry appliance" look that ended up carrying over to the rest of the Chevy pickups for 2003. But I thought the front-end that they used for the 2nd-gen Avalanche, which I believe was also used on the Tahoe and Suburban, was handsome.
If anything, I would think that midgate would have added complexity and caused the Avalanche to suffer with reliability problems, as well as air and water leaks, but apparently GM did their homework and got it right.
Once I saw the original Toyota recall post, and then I saw Circle's GM post, I said to myself "the response will be that the Toyota number was a lot larger". And I was correct!
Of course, if there's a problem with a vehicle then the quantity recalled (if the problem affects them all) is a function of the number sold. So of course the maker with the most sales of the model will have more recalls.
They way to have fewer of a model recalled is to have a has-been model. Then their aren't many to recall.
I think we've been down this long tortuous road before...
I believe I read something in the last couple of years that (completely seriously) the printer ink business profits are propping up the other parts of the company.
Even if we compared to a Silverado Crew Cab with the same engine, it's the owner who is different.
The Silverado owner works in the trade and beats the cr@p out of his truck, it's his workhorse. They get abused and put away wet.
The Avalanche is owned by Harry Homeowner and sees much lighter duties. I'm sure they are pampered much more.
That's gotta be a factor.
Reliability isn't that different, either.
Yeah, sometimes even the supposedly more "reliable" products can give you issue. For example, the one GM transmission I've ever had fail, personally, was in a 1982 Cutlass Supreme. And it was the sturdier, more reliable THM350 unit! My family has had three of the supposedly weaker THM200 versions, and never any trouble. The THM200 in my 1980 Malibu never gave any issues in the 100,000 miles we had it. The THM200R4 in my grandmother's '85 LeSabre went 157,000 miles without incident, and the one in Mom's '86 Monte Carlo was still fine when I got t-boned in it with 192,000 miles!
Yet, I had that Cutlass's THM350 rebuilt around 61,000 miles, soon after I bought it. To be fair, it was 11 years old when I bought it and I only paid $800 for it, so previous owner neglect could have been a bigger factor here than how well GM's quality control was.
I would think that most "real" work trucks would be 3/4 ton, 1-ton, and heavier, and not the mass-market 1/2 ton poseurs like my Ram. But then again, maybe not. Back in 2005 when I had my garage built, the crew that did it, who came from Eastern Ohio, were driving a Silverado half-ton with just a 4.8, and I think it had about 200,000 miles on it. And he was towing a utility trailer with it. He said he would buy his trucks used, and usually take them to around 200-300K miles, or whenever they got all used up.
Oddly, the Avalanche, which is more of a "toy" only came with the 5.3 or 6.0 V-8, fairly big, powerful engines. Yet the "work" trucks would often just have a 4.8 or the V-6.
Yep - it's the old razor and blades market. Give away the razor and make money on the blades.
Did we complain about getting the printer for $99?
Not the Brother HL-2270-DW laser printer which has cartridges that last 3 time longer the the HP-5610 I have. Both were around the same price but I only use the HP for color prints now. Everything else goes to the Brother. Cartridge is long lasting for about 6 months at $45.