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MINI Cooper
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About Storage: If you have the passengers in the back, then you will be limited to only a few bags of groceries and the car probably won't have a lot of acceleration. With the back seats down, I've hauled a bunch of stuff.
I can also recommend the CVT if you don't want to change gears. If you need an MCS then its shift gears or wait until after 1/1/2005 to get an MCS automatic.
My suggestion is to take the kids and go for a test drive. Decide for yourself. The worst thing that can happen is that you got to drive a MINI
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
There are a number of new options that will be available starting 1/05. Prices not announced on these:
- Automatic (not CVT) transmission with paddle shifters for the S.
- Limited Slip Differential for all models.
- Rain sensor wipers with automatic headlights.
- Factory installed center armrest.
- Convenience Package (includes universal garage door opener, auto dim rearview mirror, rain sensor wipers and auto headlights).
So it looks to arrive sometime in August....
Although I don't think the Mini will ever be as reliable as a Civic or Corolla, most of the poor showing to date appears to be due to lots of teething problems when the car first appeared in 2002. Unless you're buying a used car or one on a lot, any ordered car will be a 2005 which is another year in the books with, I'm sure, further design and production process improvements.
Having said this, I would never buy a Mini unless you had a dealer reasonbly nearby.
If reliability is paramount to you, you might look at a Mazda 3 which is also a very fun car, and should be stone-ax reliable.
Have fun with the decision,
- Mark
As far as increased quality in the 2004 models, yes, it is better and there are sources but the only ones that I am sure of are other automotive sites and the rules prohibit references to other automotive sites.
The primary reason to order now would be to choose new colors and options not available on the 2004. If you're thinking of a standard shift MC (not MCS), the 05 gearbox is supposed to be much better. There are also upgrades to the 05 standard equipment (side sun visor, passenger grab handle, larger center rear-view mirror etc.).
One disadvantage to buying from inventory now is that you are a model old and I'd be really surprised if you get any discount at all.
You're not alone with your MINI problems. My wife also has a 2002 manual that has a number of the same problems yours has. Although she still loves the car, the problems are definitely annoying. Below is an e-mail we sent to MINI, which has drawn a very fast reaction from them. This is after we sent a similar e-mail to them late last year about some of the same problems. Haven't had resolution yet, but hopefully they'll respond. We definitely could have lemon lawed the car, but (unwisely) chose to stick with the car and try to have them get to the bottom of the issues and fix the car.
"I sent a note via other channels to MINI and spoke with someone at MINI yesterday, but felt I needed to send a note through the Owner’s Network as well. Before I launch into the “meat” of this note, as I started off a note I sent quite a few months ago, I’ll start off by stating that I love my MINI and all that surrounds ownership save the problems I’ve been having. I would like to be able to continue to feel this way, but my patience has finally run out dealing with the same recurring problems with my car since pretty much the first day I’ve owned it.
Back in November/December (can’t remember exactly when) I wrote MINI of a very serious safety concern I had with the car, that had been occurring since the first few months of ownership. The car had a big lag in 1st gear, and when coming to a stop and taking the car out of gear the tachometer would “dip” as if it wanted to stall. Many times in traffic, or pulling out into traffic from side streets, I had many near accidents as a result of the lag problem. Consequently, I felt very nervous about the car’s abilities and safety.
Within the first year, I brought the car in to have the problem addressed. The dealer’s service department informed me that there was a problem with the software in the car’s computer, and they would re-program the computer. I was told that they had re-programmed it with the same program that the car had from the factory. No wonder, absolutely nothing changed since they simply re-programmed in the same “bugs” that existed before I brought it in.
I had taken the car back a number of times that same year, but the service department said that a new computer program fix was coming and that it made no sense to do anything until a new fix was issued. At some point, (I think) we brought the car in and an apparent “new fix” had been issued, the car re-programmed again, yet very little (if nothing) had improved. What we later found out was that the new “fix” wasn’t in fact new, it was the same program that they had tried the 1st time. Again, checking in with the service department frequently we were informed late last year that there was a new program being issued, but it wouldn’t be out for months, and made no sense for them to do anything until then.
Finally, I decided to write MINI about the safety concerns I had and MINI promptly responded, telling us they had new programming that had not yet been distributed to the dealers, told us to bring the car to our service department and they would send the computer to New Jersey to have it re-programmed with the new software. The new program appeared to drastically help the car in 1st gear, and the tachometer “dipping” issue had also seemed to go away.
In the last few months, it appears both problems have come back which brings us current to this week. We brought the car in and the service department mentioned and “suggested” a few things:
1) Many 2002 versions of my car have had the same problems, and were “lemon lawed”.
2) That despite MINIs best efforts to ultimately correct them, the problems would persist well beyond the warranty period.
3) That we would be exposed to an “open checkbook” with the car after the warranty period.
4) That 2003 and 2004 versions of my car didn’t have the same problems.
5) And that since I had 6,000 miles left on my warranty, I should figure out a way to dump the car and get into a newer model. They suggested we contact MINI to help us in this respect.
I spoke with someone at MINI yesterday, and they informed me that MINI would continue to stand behind the fixes past the warranty period to probably around 50,000 miles. I asked if they could put this offer in writing, and they said they couldn’t. In today’s world (unfortunately) if it isn’t in writing it isn’t worth anything.
As of today, the car is still at the service department. The verbal offer the MINI representative made over phone, quite honestly won’t ultimately help, will continue to expose me to the “open checkbook”, and won’t definitively fix the problems as they keep recurring (or the other myriad of smaller problems I’ve had with the car sunroof rattle, electric window issues, window switch issues to name a few). There is no question I could have “lemon lawed” the car, as others have done for the same problems. However, I was patient, brought the car in numerous times, listened to the service advisors, waited and decided not to pursue the litigation route that’s not what I’m about. I trusted that MINI would ultimately figure out how to solve the computer program problems and fix this once and for all. That doesn’t appear to be the case.
I do still feel that this car has serious safety concerns given its performance as a result of the computer program issues, which ultimately could have consequences for MINI if as a result of the performance (or lack thereof) of the car if I end up in an accident and seriously injuring myself, or g-d forbid others.
Okay, enough of the rant. As I opened this note, I do still love MINI, not necessarily my current MINI, but what I thought I was buying when I was researching cars, fell in love with the MINI and ultimately bought the car. I have referred numerous friends and family to MINI since I’ve owned mine, and in fact know for certain two (2) friends have as a result of my referral purchased MINIs for themselves.
I want to be able to continue to be excited about owning a MINI, and without reservation continue to refer people to your product line. However, as of today I find myself unable to do that. I would suggest that a bit more drastic help from MINI is warranted at this point, given my customer loyalty up until now, my patience dealing with the safety issues of the car and my being a fan and cheerleader. Please let me know how we can resolve this matter to the mutual satisfaction of all parties.
Thanks for your patience reading this lengthy note, and I look forward to hearing from MINI to resolve this issue.
Sincerely,
Gila Kimmelman - a distressed MINI owner
As long as you live and work conveniently close to a dealership where you can get warranty repairs done, it will be only a mini-headache.
The looks and styling of the Mini are really great.
Any single report is anecdotal, but there are enough anecdotes to satisfy me that quality has improved dramatically between the original 02's and the latest 04/05's. While Consumer Reports is still a great resource and should be consulted on any car purchase, their data has a long lag time and memory, so I don't think their current data and recommendation should be considered as gospel with respect to buying a new Cooper. And with the exception of extremely mass market cars like Accords and Camrys, almost any new or heavily revised model will have a lot of problems getting past the first twenty thousand cars coming off the line. For the Mini, it was a new plant, new engine, new design, new everything.
- Mark
2002 Cooper CVT with 25K miles
2004 Cooper S with 11K miles.
The '04 MCS has been totally TROUBLEFREE and absolutely ZERO issues, nothing, nada in 10 months and 11K miles since taking delivery. The car is built like a bank vault and no rattles, buzzes or any other indications of less than desirable build quality. Very, very happy with the car and my dealer, Lauderdale MINI in Ft Lauderdale, FL has been nothing sort of fantastic.
My wife's 2002 Cooper CVT has also been troublefree and the powertrain and transmission are working like the finest Swiss watch. We had some very minor first year issues with the car, but by the second year the car has been absolutely troublefree. About a month ago it received its second Oil change service at the 24K mile mark.
We have driven at least 10K miles worth of roadtrips all over the Eastern US in the Cooper CVT and this car simply loves the highway.
If anyone has any specific questions about the Cooper CVT or the Cooper S, feel free to post them here and I will try my best to answer them in the least amount of time possible.
I'm assuming that Consumer Report's auto eval was on the current model. What's the deal? Yes it's only a guide, but they are usually dependable. It truly makes me concerned.
Honestly, if you're sweating it this much, you might want to consider something else. Whether things have improved or not, if it unlikely a Mini is going to be as reliable as any of the competing Japanese products - BMW hasn't produced ANY car that has matched the better Japanese car's reliability. Some risk taking and dealing with problems is part of the Mini experience. Of course, it's part of owning any car - no make is perfect. All you can do is select a make where the odds are a bit better.
- Mark
Based on what I've heard, the Mini does very well in marginal traction, with, of course appropriate tires. It is low-slung though, especially the S, so you shouldn't plan on tackling really rough conditions. IOW, if you live in Boston and need to get to work each and every day, without other options on bad snow days, probably not a good choice - a small SUV would be a lot better. Again, I think the key is to buy dedicated snow tires on separate wheels.
Yes, I think DSC would be a worthwhile option for any conditions.
You've made the order, I say let it ride. After a year, I'm very happy with my choice and I often get cold feet about this time. Where else can you get this kind of fun in a car for $20K or so?
- Mark
Give me a break! We are talking about a MINI here not Honda. The MINI is at 24/33 MPG. You can get an AWD Toyota RAV4 that gets 22/27 MPG and is a lot more useful in winter situations and has more room. Even over several years worth of driving, that is not "way more gas". Small SUVs are very useful in certain situations and in the situation like Boston in the winter, it makes much more sense (as an only vehicle) than a MINI.
The Mini reminds me very much of my '83 GTI, the same spirited ability to cut and thrust through urban traffic.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I don't know about the leasing question. I suspect it is a gray area and I'd call your leasing company.
- Mark
I was having qualms about the MINI due to the reports of unreliability, but they seem to be confined to the 2002 models (the first year), and mostly the manual transmission, too. I would be buying a 2004 (or 2005) CVT.
Now, even if the MINI is fairly reliable, can I expect it to last as long as, say, a Honda/Hyundai/Mazda/Nissan? If not, what can I expect? I realize that this is a difficult question to answer, since even the troubled 2002 Coopers are only three or four years old now. But I don't want to buy a car now and have to buy a new one in four or five years; I'd like my next car to last more like seven to ten years.
With that in mind, should I stick with the old reliable standbys (maybe a Mazda3 or a Civic)? Does the Cooper die young?
I personally would never buy a car that I was unsure of and I own two MINIs, but I never keep a car once the warranty expires.
This is what most MINI people are doing, I think - leasing for a period shorter than the warranty (3 to 4 year leases).
I don't know if there are any "zingers" in leases for excess wear and tear. But you should be safe.
When you lease it costs the difference between the the selling price and the price they predict it will be worth when you return it, plus the lease interest, plus any excess wear charges, plus any over mileage charges, plus any acquisition fee charged, plus any disposition fee charged plus tax on the monthly payments in most states.
Unless you overpay and have a high depreciation vehicle, you should have equity before 3 years on a 5 year loan.
I once purchased a new Honda with a no money down on a 60 month loan and sold it 2 years later with equity to spare. The monthly payment was cheaper than a 24 month lease.
The car is going to depreciate a certain amount no matter what (and the lessor needs to be paid for that depreciation) so the lease only works out cheaper if the lease program is subsidized more than a purchase or if something happens to cause it depreciate more than expected or if you can write it off as a business expense.
It is possible for it to depreciate more than expected due to collision repair or the car model or manufacturer later developing a poor reputation (major mechanical and safety recalls regarding fires, rollover scandals etc., manufacturer deciding to pull the brand out of US market a year after you purchase the vehicle etc.) or the car model just being overproduced with too many similar models on the used market in your area when you need to sell.
So, a lease can work out cheaper if that happens and if depreciation savings aren't wiped out in acquisition and disposition fees or overly high lease interest rate.
The depreciation gamble is more on the lessors side, but they hedge their bets with extra fees and conservative residual predictions to make it likely that they will be ahead most of the time. Just like an extended warranty purchase. If you buy an extended warranty, most likely most people will not get the value back out of it (or the company would go out business from the claims), but you are paying for piece of mind.
Typically, on German cars, the things that get you are the little glitches in electrical accessories, instruments, etc. So if you're keeping the car long term, my expectation is that you won't have to worry about an engine rebuild at 125K, but you might have to pony up to stuff like sunroof motors and alternators.
Having said all this, if you really value a trouble-free car, I think your odds are better with a Mazda 3.
- Mark
The other point was re service, we have only one dealer in the state, in Scottsdale,I know the service is included but i,ve heard it has to be when the cars says its necs,so i guess i wont be going for a day trip to save $30.00 on an oil change,but what are the big service points, and are they included under the plan.
ps, if you sell a car does the new owner get the whole wtte, service deal transferred for free.
Thanks.
pps, one point i have to make re whats trouble free and whats not,I honestly think a hell of a lot has to do with what the owner of the car puts up with and accepts,my girlfriend drives a 2 year old Toyota Rav 4,as long as it starts every morning she does not care about loose trim,rattles,ect, me , well i,m up at 2.00 am trying to stop a rattle on the ceiling fan.
No sunroof, body-colored roof (EB), BTW.
Maintenance is covered when the service reminder system indicates it. I think it goes something like: oil change, minor inspection, oil change, major inspection, .... at about 10K intervals. So you'll likely get a couple oil changes and one inspection in the 36K free maintenance period. The inspection probably costs a few hundred, while the dealers charge about $75 for the oil changes. I believe everything is transferrable to a new owner.
I agree that people have radically different expectations for their cars and someone's lemon may be another's trouble-free car. But I don't know if you can assume that the owners of any particular make/model are, as a whole, pickier than any other. I've heard people say that Mini owners are picky, but I know a lot of Lexus owners who scream bloody murder if the ash tray doesn't open as smoothly as they think it should.
- Mark
You'll find a whole host of opinions on how to best take care of your car's exterior. You have to be careful with some of the high-pressure do-it-yourself stations - just like with any pressure washer, at close range it can blast off the finish. Sadly, I speak from experience on this one. If you've seen a pressure washer remove old paint & stain from wood, you know how powerful it can be. But many will say it's fine as long as you keep some distance.
You might post a question about exterior care in our Paint and Body Maintenance & Repair discussion while you wait for responses here.
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- Are there any negotiations on the sticker price?? Or is everyone pretty much paying MSRP?
- I have a strong feeling I'm going to have to order one, as we're very strict on color and option choices. Does anyone know what the approximate wait is for an ordered Mini??
Thanks much in advance. This site has helped me out alot in past purchases.
- Karl
Worst case are markets like LA where it is $1K or more over MSRP and waits that can be anywhere from a few months to over a year. Some dealers will sell at or near MSRP for a year wait, but if you are wiling to go $2K over, then you can order a car and get it in a couple months.
Best case are many eastern and midwest markets where you can order today for MSRP and have a car in a couple months. Some cars are on lots as well, but they're generally Minis and loaded up with questinoable, high-dealer-profit doo-dads.
If you're price sensitive, I'd suggest you resist the urge to load up the car. The basic car is a great value at MSRP, but the options are not (e.g., $1700 for a nav system that is regarded poorly). While the wait is agony, ordering is a great way to go with the Mini because you get to personalize the car so much with all the combos. The Mini website has the new 2005 configurator up and running. Great fun.
Good luck,
- Mark
Anyone out there in the Bay Area that can provide some experience and guidance on buying/ordering a MCS?
I really want one bad! Cheers.
James
I heard that East Bay Mini is doing MSRP, but has a year+ waiting list.
$2500 is probably their position on the phone - you likely can do better in person, but you'll still end up well over MSRP. Go out of state.
- Mark
- Mark
Someone can call East Bay and get hard info - I was just trying to be helpful.
- Mark
The MCS clutch feels really nice to me. There are some who have had durability issues, but I suspect this has more to do with the way these cars are driven than the clutch itself.
- Mark