I did not know that. I don't know why they wouldn't be available, the Mazda dealer here said that they might start selling the parts from the parts department. In any case, *if* you could get the parts, they would fit good.
What is the advantage of steering power assist depending on the rpm on the P5? It seems to me it should depend on the car speed. It doesn't make much sense for me. Thanks for the help.
I don't know whether It's cheaper to produce RPM sensitive steering or not! Have you ever revved the engine to pass someone and hit a pothole or bump in the road? If so, you've felt the severe pull against the steering wheel. If the bump is big enough and the RPM's high enough, the car will go off it's coarse. RPM Sensitive Steering, is supposed to be the solution to this scenario.
I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to give this feature a try one of these days.
I've seen a couple of MPV's driving around with Zoom - Zoom license plate frames. Does anyone know where I could get one of these? The dealers I called, said they are an after market Item and are looking for them themselves.
for me, the speed of the car is more stable (due to car's inertie) than the rpm, and it just make me freek out that the steering assist power could change as quick as the rpm (when shifting back the gear), which can introduce some unpredictable behavior of the steering for the conductor. My P5 is still in the break-in period. After that, I might try to push the engine to rpm greater than 5000 for passing. I wonder what happens if I want to shift back for passing others cars? I think I better experiment it a couple of time with few extra safety distance before knowing better how it will perform.
I have a '99 ES 5-spd sedan. I have found the engine speed sensitive power assist to be quite useful. Under high power (high rpm), the front end can get a bit squirelly as the front tires lose and gain traction. If I still had the full power assist, it would be too easy to lose control of the car, particularly if you hit a rough spot on the pavement. However, with the decreased power assist, the car is easier to control because I have to put some effort into steering it another direction. With vehicle speed sensitive power assist, I would never get that help for any type of power launches or high rpm shifts.
Well, I can understand all that but, the fact is, that the power steering doesn't have to "sense" RPM because the power steering pump is engine driven. Power steering is automatically RPM sensitive unless the steering system is designed to compensate it. That's why it's cheaper to produce - it's cheaper to do nothing than to do something.
Most high-end cars have vehicle speed-sensitive steering where the amount of power applied to the steering gear is inverse to vehicle speed, i.e., lower the speed, the more assist given. At high speeds, there is little need for power assist, and little is given. That makes more sense to me.
Albert, there is something in your explanation that I don't really understand. If the power steering pump is driven by the engine, then the assist power will be greater when the rpm increases. Which is the opposite to what it should be. IMHO, either the assist power should be monitored by the rpm, or either there is some design trick in order to reverse the sensitivity. Can you please clarify this issue to me? Thanks, Bruno
Could you provide some insight into the above speed/RPM sensitive steering debate? Which is better (speed or RPM sensitive) or do they each serve a different purpose?
I though the outcome of the debate is pretty clear, and I'm not sure what you imply exactly in your question. But here again what I think:
The main purpose of power-assist steering is mainly helping the conductor to manoeuvrer the car. When the speed is low (e.g., in the parking place), the conductor need the most of assistance, whereas at the higher speed, it's better to have very little assistance since all suddle change of the steering are bad, and steering should be performed slower and smoother in order to keep the car stable. Therefore the vehicle-speed-sensitive power assist steering serve perfectly its purpose. At the lower-end, a constant power-assist works just fine if the steering-power is calibrated correctly by the designer. However, Albert and I have problems with the concept of steering with assist power driven directly by the engine (RPM sensitive). The steering is indeed power-assist, but the degree of assistance is varying in the opposite way of what it should be, assuming that the engine RPM is correlated with vehicle speed. If it serves another purpose, then I haven't found yet one reason which makes sense.
mark, I also purchased a silver protege5 with m5 and moon roof ABS, but I have no idea how long it will take to come in or if the dealer will be able to locate one elsewhere. I am curious, since you are also taking advantage of the graduate program incentive, if your dealer is still accepting that promotion if you take delivery from dealer stock after 7/09(the date at which the graduate program offer expires). since I doubt I will be taking delivery before the ninth, I am a bit concerned that mazda may not give me the incentive. any insight?
Terry, My opinion is that the RPM sensitive steering is the [non-permissible content removed] step child of vehicle speed sensitive steering. It's not all bad as you most likely want the power assist at lower RPMs, but vehicle speed sensing steering is much more in tune with the driver's needs. I think the difference would be most noticeable when you are starting a quick right turn from a stop and the torque steer from the FWD wants to pull the wheels straight assuming equal traction. With RPMs up, you'll have less assist to overcome that torque steer.
What makes you say that the graduate program expires on 7/09? It's my understanding that this is an ongoing program and only the other incentives expire at this time.
per mazdausa.com, in the fine print when you click for info on the graduate program. i would think it is an ongoing incentive also, which is why i am confused. the $400 cash is nice, but the 180 day deferred payment clinched the deal for me...but now i'm not so sure i will even be getting it...
After reading all the arguments about the RPM Sensing Power Assisted steering, I decided to put the arguments to the test yesterday and this morning. I did the hard right turn with high RPM's...The car didn't pull excessively to the right and the steering easily returned to the center. I don't remember this being the case with my Camry or Escort. I shifted down to pass a slow moving car and the steering responded smoothly, even after running over the lane markers with 5200 RPM's on the tach. My Escort use to get very unstable in similar situations and it had Speed Sensing Power Assist.
Try the above experiment with the cheesy, so called improvements to the new Civic, and you'll get very different results. The crappie feel of the new Civic is what broke a 15 year cycle of Civic ownership for me.
Whether It's cheap or not, the car handles better than any other car I've driven in the past or test drove before I decided on the P5. There are many factors involved in automotive roadworthiness, than this issue in of itself. For what the car is and how much it costs, It kicks butt! The only way to really settle this issue is to take two Protegé's, equip one with the Speed Sensing Power Assist Steering and test them in equal conditions. Outside of this reality, the only alternative is to compare it the competition.
Except for the Jetta, there were no other competing models, which offered the ride and handling I found in the P5.
Looks like the details are a little unclear, but I believe it's the deffered payment that expires 7/09. Other sources indicate that the grad program will be around.
Are there any aftermarket chips available for the P5 and what other upgrades (exhaust, intake) are available to increase HP and torque on the P5? Any websites?
thank you for let us know the test concerning the steering power-assist on P5. How do you feel about the steering at high RPM? easier or harder?
Thank you,
Bruno
PS: I read somewhere a test-drive of the Mazda Protege, where the reviewer claimed the steering can loss momentarily its assist power in a very quick slalom situation.
Hi. I ordered mine on 5/29, and don't expect it in now till July. My salesman didn't really know what he was talking about. I also asked about the 7/9 thing, and they didn't seem to think that there would be a problem. If it gets close to that date, I would ask again. They thought mine would be in sometime in June, so of course they didn't worry. I'll keep checking in, and I'll let you know. Just call your dealer and ask. Good luck!
maltb, bluong1, phoenixmp5, Thanks for your feedback gentlemen.
Phoenixmp5, Thanks for "taking it to the streets". My MP5 is yet to be delivered and your glowing review has me even more excited to take her out for the first time. Having driven German cars (Scirocco, Corrado G60) for over 10 years prior to my current car (97 Protege LX) I'll be curious to find out how German the MP5 feels.
My Protege has been a very reliable car and that is why I am staying with Mazda, but although it handles well for it's class, it can't compete with my old Corrado (nor did I expect it too).
I have found a fairly successful solution to most of the noise from having the sunroof open.
My dealer ordered a wind deflector which attaches in front of the sunroof. The dealer cost for this item is approximately $40 to $45. I paid the cost at my dealer of $42.00.
I find it reduces the noise by at least 60 to 75%. There is always going to be some wind noise just like there is when you open your windows.
This wind deflector is an economical way to cut the noise level without having to remove the roof rack. It is the same model that fits on the sedan.
It installs with two clamps (no drilling) and takes about 10 minutes to install.
Sorry I can't add to what everyone else already posted.. I am only doing the $400 cash rebate, not the 180 days deffered payment.. when I asked my dealer about the 7/9 deadline on the $400 cash rebate, he said it would most likely be around past 7/9..
Good luck on your p5 arrival date! I've been waiting 5 weeks so far and they don't even have a VIN number yet.
I definitely feel a stiffening of the steering at higher RPM's. The car is still easy to control and maintains its confident feel. I haven't heard anything, nor experienced any loss of Power Assist, as you expressed above.
I've only put 1300 miles on the vehicle in 5 weeks, which is a drop in the bucket. I've read most owner reviews on Carpoint's page for all Protege's 99 and up, and no-one reported any such concern. Then again, no-one reported driving through a slalom course either!
Maybe someone with a 5 speed can test the car with high RPM turns and passes. The harder shifts of a manual transmission may provide very different results.
It's interesting you should mention the Scirocco and Corrodo! These cars are what the P5 reminded me of when I first saw it. I'd be curious to read about what you think "German or not" when you take delivery of your car.
If I remember correctly, body-sway, was one of the things which plagued the Scirocco. The Corrodo on the other hand was a great handling vehicle. I drove the Jetta with the 16" wheel package and it was a real nice ride... I'm sure the 17" wheels and sport tuned suspension would have the expected results. With the exception of the roof-rack noise at high speeds, the P5 delivered many of the same qualities as the Jetta.
The Jetta felt heavier, which was no surprise! It weighs an average of 800 pounds more depending on options and engine configurations.
To remove the center panel: Remove the glove box first by opening it and then pressing in on both sides of the box to release the stopper. Next pull the driver's side of the box toward the rear of the car and once that side of the box is out, slide the box to the drivers side to remove it completely.
With your right arm, reach inside the dash and around to the inside of the center panel. Facing the dash, you want to push on the clip located at the bottom right of the panel. once you have that corner started, you can carefully pull out the remaining 6 clips. If the metal portion of the clip remains attached to the dash, take them out and put them back in place on the center panel.
To replace it, just push it back into place.
Out of curiosity, are you trying to remove the radio? If so, it can easily be done without removing the center panel.
is an ongoing thing.. when we looked over the summer (last yr) the website said the rebate expired in august. But after the "expiration" it got changed to dec31,2000. then in January it changed to Spring, now July..
I think they list the "expiration" because as you are seeing, some folks will think its expiring and thus rush in to take advantage of the rebate.
[ ...This Twin Trapezoidal Link (TTL) rear suspension of the P5 controls toe-in toe-out to subtly "steer" the rear wheels, helping to ensure they maintain maximum road contact...]
The same kind of toe-in toe-out technology appeared first (?) on the Citroen ZX, and later on the Xsara (they called it "suspension arriere auto-directionnelle" or "auto-steering rear suspension" in english). Peugeot probably adopted the same kind of suspension on the 306 and the brand new 307 model. All those cars are considered as references in term of handling in their class. I own the Citroen ZX Aura 1.8l in France, and it's amazingly how easy to drive this car, it takes a corner like no-other cars.
I'm happy to see that Mazda can compete with them in term of advance technology and design for suspensions. No wonder the P5 handling is soo great!
The dealer uses 4 U shaped tools to release the locking tabs on the side of the radio. If you pry up the the small plates on both sides of the radio face, you'll see the 8 holes that these tools go into. With the tool pushed into the holes, you push outward on the end of the tool to release the locking tabs while pulling toward you to slide the radio out. In the past, I have used finishing nails to do this on the single DIN units with 4 holes. On the double DIN units, this may be a bit more difficult. Being that these tools cost over $20 a pice from the dealer, I'm still looking for alternatives. I read on a web site that you can get them at Wal-mart for $4 a pair, but I have yet to see them there. Happy hunting and let me know if you find something.
The Mazda Twin-Trapezoidal Link (TTL) rear suspension is used in both the 626 and Protege. It was first developed and used in the second generation (1986-1991) RX-7, albeit designed for rear wheel drive. The system is excellent and you can feel it kick in during hard cornering. It feels as if the vehicle's rear-end is starting to slide out, but it's just the rear wheels "steering." Another advantage of the TTL is the control of the rear wheels' camber. As the vehicle squats, the TTL starts producing a negative camber on the rear wheels (negative camber makes the bottom of the wheels move outwards and the top inwards) to give the vehicle better stability during acceleration and hard cornering. The new Focus also uses this, but they call it "rear blade control" or something like that.
I'd post a direct link but Edmunds software won't allow it for length.
The ends are a little different than the OEM tool, but it looks like it should work. Don't forget that you'll need 4 tools, so two sets to get the job done.
Just for fun, I stopped at my local White-Trash-Mart and picked up a set of those tools. So I guess I can say that your local store should have them too.
Hi, all. I'm a new Protege5 owner. Bought the car today during my lunch time. It literally took me 5 minutes to make a deal. I'm not one of those guys that wants to squeeze the dealer for every nickel. Dealer wanted sticker. I told him I work from invoice up, not sticker down. I said $500 above invoice would make the deal for me. He agreed, and I drove off in my new Pro5 before my lunch hour was over.
I finally test drove the P5 last weekend! Wow! The looks were fantastic, the engine was smooth and powerfull, and the brakes were great. I don't like the dark cloth, though, it seems too somber. What really bothered me was the color of the dash details: that off-silver/copper stuff. Does anyone know if they can be replaced by the 2000 and prior Protoge's? BTW, since the 626 are quickly becoming an old model and selling for cheap, I test drove an LXV6. The pick-up seemed less than the P5 and the brakes didn't seem to stop as quickly. We also stopped at a Toyota dealership nearby and looked at the RAV4. We did not test drive it but it seems like an attractive alternative to the P5 (though about 2k higher in price).
It's integrated into the rear door. It makes for easier access to the cargo area but CR estimated damage from their 5mph bumper basher test to be pretty costly (I think about $4k).
The RAV4 is an attractive vehicle if you're looking for a compact SUV, but the rear bumper design does warrant concern.
The black dash and trim pieces from the Protege DX are interchangeable with the P5. Though I haven't priced out these parts, I'm sure they would carry an undesirable price tag.
That wagon (I almost forgot it wasn't a car, it handles SO well) handles amazingly well!
Congratualtions to all buyers on their purchase!
If I needed a wagon, I know which one I'd buy!
On a side note, on some really sharp turns at speed, and abrupt lane changes, I felt the TTL (suspension-steering on the rear) kick in. Familiar feeling, I have a 95 DX - but WAY better feel! The suspension and the low-profile tires help it handle really well!
The 2.0 engine doesn't rev as happily as the 1.8 from older Proteges (ES), but definitely has more torque and power that you can feel. Its a little slow to kick in - almost like a turbo!
The interior is excellent, by small car standards, and I, for one, like the copper/silver trim as mush if not more than the black trim from last year's models (ES).
In short, all superlatives for a Nice Nice car. And the salesperson was pretty nice to let me try it (cosidering I service my 95 Pro there all the time, including my recent 60K mile service!).
Again, for people considering wagons in this price range, that don't nearly need an SUV, this is the one to buy!
Every party needs a pooper, so I've invited myself to yours. There is no doubt the P5 is a nice-looking little wagon. I know they're calling it a hatchback, but it looks like a wagon. After finally seeing a few in the flesh, I have to say they look better on TV. (But at least the real ones aren't followed around by a creepy little boy in a black suit whispering Zoom Zoom.) The proportions are pretty nice, but I for one could live without the Pontiac-like lower body cladding and that awning thing over the rear window. Unfortunately, to achieve the look, they amputated the cargo area. What kind of company makes a wagon (OK, hatch) that has LESS luggage space than the corresponding sedan? Maybe you could get a loaf of bread back there, but that's about it. And speaking of zoom, it seems the zoom is all show. I saw a test report that said the P5 takes 10.4 seconds to reach 60 MPH. Can this be true? If it is, it will get blown away by such fire-breathing street racers as Granny's Echo, Uncle Fred's Corolla, and Aunt Nelly's Elantra. Hope the aftermarket HP boosters are readily available.
Comments
Bruno
I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to give this feature a try one of these days.
for me, the speed of the car is more stable (due to car's inertie) than the rpm, and it just make me freek out that the steering assist power could change as quick as the rpm (when shifting back the gear), which can introduce some unpredictable behavior of the steering for the conductor. My P5 is still in the break-in period. After that, I might try to push the engine to rpm greater than 5000 for passing. I wonder what happens if I want to shift back for passing others cars? I think I better experiment it a couple of time with few extra safety distance before knowing better how it will perform.
Thanks for your comments,
Bruno
Most high-end cars have vehicle speed-sensitive steering where the amount of power applied to the steering gear is inverse to vehicle speed, i.e., lower the speed, the more assist given. At high speeds, there is little need for power assist, and little is given. That makes more sense to me.
there is something in your explanation that I don't really understand. If the power steering pump is driven by the engine, then the assist power will be greater when the rpm increases. Which is the opposite to what it should be. IMHO, either the assist power should be monitored by the rpm, or either there is some design trick in order to reverse the sensitivity. Can you please clarify this issue to me?
Thanks,
Bruno
Thanks,
-Terry
I though the outcome of the debate is pretty clear, and I'm not sure what you imply exactly in your question. But here again what I think:
The main purpose of power-assist steering is mainly helping the conductor to manoeuvrer the car. When the speed is low (e.g., in the parking place), the conductor need the most of assistance, whereas at the higher speed, it's better to have very little assistance since all suddle change of the steering are bad, and steering should be performed slower and smoother in order to keep the car stable. Therefore the vehicle-speed-sensitive power assist steering serve perfectly its purpose. At the lower-end, a constant power-assist works just fine if the steering-power is calibrated correctly by the designer. However, Albert and I have problems with the concept of steering with assist power driven directly by the engine (RPM sensitive). The steering is indeed power-assist, but the degree of assistance is varying in the opposite way of what it should be, assuming that the engine RPM is correlated with vehicle speed. If it serves another purpose, then I haven't found yet one reason which makes sense.
My opinion is that the RPM sensitive steering is the [non-permissible content removed] step child of vehicle speed sensitive steering. It's not all bad as you most likely want the power assist at lower RPMs, but vehicle speed sensing steering is much more in tune with the driver's needs. I think the difference would be most noticeable when you are starting a quick right turn from a stop and the torque steer from the FWD wants to pull the wheels straight assuming equal traction. With RPMs up, you'll have less assist to overcome that torque steer.
Try the above experiment with the cheesy, so called improvements to the new Civic, and you'll get very different results. The crappie feel of the new Civic is what broke a 15 year cycle of Civic ownership for me.
Whether It's cheap or not, the car handles better than any other car I've driven in the past or test drove before I decided on the P5. There are many factors involved in automotive roadworthiness, than this issue in of itself. For what the car is and how much it costs, It kicks butt! The only way to really settle this issue is to take two Protegé's, equip one with the Speed Sensing Power Assist Steering and test them in equal conditions. Outside of this reality, the only alternative is to compare it the competition.
Except for the Jetta, there were no other competing models, which offered the ride and handling I found in the P5.
thank you for let us know the test concerning the steering power-assist on P5. How do you feel about the steering at high RPM? easier or harder?
Thank you,
Bruno
PS: I read somewhere a test-drive of the Mazda Protege, where the reviewer claimed the steering can loss momentarily its assist power in a very quick slalom situation.
Thanks for your feedback gentlemen.
Phoenixmp5,
Thanks for "taking it to the streets". My MP5 is yet to be delivered and your glowing review has me even more excited to take her out for the first time. Having driven German cars (Scirocco, Corrado G60) for over 10 years prior to my current car (97 Protege LX) I'll be curious to find out how German the MP5 feels.
My Protege has been a very reliable car and that is why I am staying with Mazda, but although it handles well for it's class, it can't compete with my old Corrado (nor did I expect it too).
-Terry
My dealer ordered a wind deflector which attaches in front of the sunroof. The dealer cost for this item is approximately $40 to $45. I paid the cost at my dealer of $42.00.
I find it reduces the noise by at least 60 to 75%.
There is always going to be some wind noise just like there is when you open your windows.
This wind deflector is an economical way to cut the noise level without having to remove the roof rack. It is the same model that fits on the sedan.
It installs with two clamps (no drilling) and takes about 10 minutes to install.
Good luck on your p5 arrival date! I've been waiting 5 weeks so far and they don't even have a VIN number yet.
I definitely feel a stiffening of the steering at higher RPM's. The car is still easy to control and maintains its confident feel. I haven't heard anything, nor experienced any loss of Power Assist, as you expressed above.
I've only put 1300 miles on the vehicle in 5 weeks, which is a drop in the bucket. I've read most owner reviews on Carpoint's page for all Protege's 99 and up, and no-one reported any such concern. Then again, no-one reported driving through a slalom course either!
Maybe someone with a 5 speed can test the car with high RPM turns and passes. The harder shifts of a manual transmission may provide very different results.
Take care,
Ryan
It's interesting you should mention the Scirocco and Corrodo! These cars are what the P5 reminded me of when I first saw it. I'd be curious to read about what you think "German or not" when you take delivery of your car.
If I remember correctly, body-sway, was one of the things which plagued the Scirocco. The Corrodo on the other hand was a great handling vehicle. I drove the Jetta with the 16" wheel package and it was a real nice ride... I'm sure the 17" wheels and sport tuned suspension would have the expected results. With the exception of the roof-rack noise at high speeds, the P5 delivered many of the same qualities as the Jetta.
The Jetta felt heavier, which was no surprise! It weighs an average of 800 pounds more depending on options and engine configurations.
Keep us posted
Ryan
Thank you.
Remove the glove box first by opening it and then pressing in on both sides of the box to release the stopper. Next pull the driver's side of the box toward the rear of the car and once that side of the box is out, slide the box to the drivers side to remove it completely.
With your right arm, reach inside the dash and around to the inside of the center panel. Facing the dash, you want to push on the clip located at the bottom right of the panel. once you have that corner started, you can carefully pull out the remaining 6 clips. If the metal portion of the clip remains attached to the dash, take them out and put them back in place on the center panel.
To replace it, just push it back into place.
Out of curiosity, are you trying to remove the radio? If so, it can easily be done without removing the center panel.
I think they list the "expiration" because as you are seeing, some folks will think its expiring and thus rush in to take advantage of the rebate.
Read from Mazda US website:
[ ...This Twin Trapezoidal Link (TTL) rear suspension of the P5 controls toe-in toe-out to subtly "steer" the rear wheels, helping to ensure they maintain maximum road contact...]
The same kind of toe-in toe-out technology appeared first (?) on the Citroen ZX, and later on the Xsara (they called it "suspension arriere auto-directionnelle" or "auto-steering rear suspension" in english). Peugeot probably adopted the same kind of suspension on the 306 and the brand new 307 model. All those cars are considered as references in term of handling in their class. I own the Citroen ZX Aura 1.8l in France, and it's amazingly how easy to drive this car, it takes a corner like no-other cars.
I'm happy to see that Mazda can compete with them in term of advance technology and design for suspensions. No wonder the P5 handling is soo great!
Bruno
http://www.walmart.com
Do a search for: Scosche DIN Radio Removal Tool
I'd post a direct link but Edmunds software won't allow it for length.
The ends are a little different than the OEM tool, but it looks like it should work. Don't forget that you'll need 4 tools, so two sets to get the job done.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?cat=3947&product_id=870835&path=0:3944:3947:4429&dept=3944
Just for fun, I stopped at my local White-Trash-Mart and picked up a set of those tools. So I guess I can say that your local store should have them too.
Soooo,... I'm not the only one.
http://pub70.ezboard.com/bprotegepower
Here is a New Protege forum
and it already has 14 members
and we need more members
i would like to welcome you to join us
Here's hoping you get as much enjoyment out of your new P5 as the others seem to.
The RAV4 is an attractive vehicle if you're looking for a compact SUV, but the rear bumper design does warrant concern.
That wagon (I almost forgot it wasn't a car, it handles SO well) handles amazingly well!
Congratualtions to all buyers on their purchase!
If I needed a wagon, I know which one I'd buy!
On a side note, on some really sharp turns at speed, and abrupt lane changes, I felt the TTL (suspension-steering on the rear) kick in. Familiar feeling, I have a 95 DX - but WAY better feel! The suspension and the low-profile tires help it handle really well!
The 2.0 engine doesn't rev as happily as the 1.8 from older Proteges (ES), but definitely has more torque and power that you can feel. Its a little slow to kick in - almost like a turbo!
The interior is excellent, by small car standards, and I, for one, like the copper/silver trim as mush if not more than the black trim from last year's models (ES).
In short, all superlatives for a Nice Nice car. And the salesperson was pretty nice to let me try it (cosidering I service my 95 Pro there all the time, including my recent 60K mile service!).
Again, for people considering wagons in this price range, that don't nearly need an SUV, this is the one to buy!
-ashu